Death Of 4 Black Phantom Tetras

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Offline davebayfield

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Death of 4 Black Phantom Tetras
« on: July 28, 2020, 06:05:15 PM »
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Hi Guys,
I hope I'm posting this in the right place. I'm fairly new to tropical fishkeeping (started in May this year) and thought I was doing pretty well, until Monday.
I've got a 90L tank, reasonably well planted which had 6 Black Phanton Tetras, 4 Leopard danios and 7 Rili shrimp. I wanted to change some of the decor and take out a largish rock that my friend gave me with the tank and replace it with some bogwood I bought. I did this on Sunday when I was carrying out my weekly water change, mainly so it would be easier to move stuff about with less water in the tank.
I did all that and everything seem fine, until Monday morning when I noticed that 3 of the black phantom tetras had died. I checked the water conditions and the nitrate/nitrite/ammonia levels were OK but a carried out a ~25% water change as another of tetras wasn't looking to well but that didn't improve things and the tetra died within an hour or so.
All the other fish and shrimp are fine and don't look ill at all, but I'm struggling to work out why this might have happened and can only think of two possible causes:
I had glued some Java moss to the bogwood and I recall reading somewhere that when glue cures underwater it can use up some of the oxygen in the water, however the bogwood was left for 3-4 hours for the glue to set and then soaked overnight before putting it in the tank so it should've had time to cure?
or
For some reason these four fish have found me moving the scenery around to stressful and that's been too much for them?
Sorry for the length of the post, I just wanted to make sure I'd covered everything I did so I can get as much advice as possible to avoid this happening again.  :)

A Selection of Fish in my Fish Community Creator Tanks
Zebra Danio (4) - Black Phantom Tetra (6) - Japonica Shrimp (6) - Panda Cory (5) - Pygmy Cory (6) - Zebra Danio (6) - Rummy Nose Tetra (12) - Japonica Shrimp (15) - Kuhli Loach (aka Coolie) (6) - Pygmy Cory (8) - Black Phantom Tetra (8) - Otocinclus (6) - Serpae Tetra (10) -
Note: The user may not necessarily own these fish, these are tanks that they may be building or researching for stocking purposes


Offline Littlefish

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Re: Death of 4 Black Phantom Tetras
« Reply #1 on: July 28, 2020, 06:25:07 PM »
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Hi @davebayfield  and welcome to the forum.  :wave:

Please could let us know your water hardness, was the tank fully cycled before the fish were added, what filter do you use, how long have the fish been in the tank, and what substrate you use.

When removing the rock did you notice any bubbles or anything coming out of the substrate?

What were you ammonia/nitrite/nitrate readings on Monday?

Did the fish seem stressed when you moved the rock?

Had the bogwood been pre-soaked?

Sorry about all the extra questions. Also, if there's any chance you could post a picture of the tank that may give us some additional information/ideas.

Offline Littlefish

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Re: Death of 4 Black Phantom Tetras
« Reply #2 on: July 28, 2020, 06:27:41 PM »
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Could you also let us know what glue you used.
Thanks

Offline Sue

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Re: Death of 4 Black Phantom Tetras
« Reply #3 on: July 28, 2020, 06:49:02 PM »
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And how long you waited for the glue to set and dry before putting it in the tank.

Offline davebayfield

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Re: Death of 4 Black Phantom Tetras
« Reply #4 on: July 28, 2020, 08:04:37 PM »
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Hi Littlefish, Sue,

Water hardness GH = 6, KH = 4. I carried out a fishless cycle with ammonia before the danios were added towards the end of May, the black phantoms were added two weeks later so they have been in there ~6 weeks.
I use a Fluval U3 internal filter and a sand substrate.
I didn't notice any bubbles when I removed the rock, there was some silt/debris stirred up but nothing I thought excessive. I actually removed the rock Saturday not Sunday as I originally said.
On Monday the Ammonia and Nitrite were 0ppm. Nitrate was 20ppm (Tetra 6 in 1 dip test kit).
The fish didn't seem stressed when the rock was removed.
I pre-soaked the bog wood for 4 days when I first bought it 2 weeks ago, but I didn't have any Java moss at that point so I stopped soaking it. I glued the moss to it Saturday afternoon and left it ~4 hours to set before soaking it again overnight.
The glue was Gorilla super glue gel (Cyanoacrylate).
As the other fish didn't seem to be affected I chose to risk leaving the wood in the tank and the other fish have all been fine since.
I've attached pictures before and after I changed the tank around.
 :)

A Selection of Fish in my Fish Community Creator Tanks
Zebra Danio (4) - Black Phantom Tetra (6) - Japonica Shrimp (6) - Panda Cory (5) - Pygmy Cory (6) - Zebra Danio (6) - Rummy Nose Tetra (12) - Japonica Shrimp (15) - Kuhli Loach (aka Coolie) (6) - Pygmy Cory (8) - Black Phantom Tetra (8) - Otocinclus (6) - Serpae Tetra (10) -
Note: The user may not necessarily own these fish, these are tanks that they may be building or researching for stocking purposes


Offline Littlefish

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Re: Death of 4 Black Phantom Tetras
« Reply #5 on: July 28, 2020, 08:50:45 PM »
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Slightly distracted by the pictures of your tank, which looks lovely.  :)

So far, looking at what you've written, I can't see anything wrong. Your tank was cycled and set up for several weeks since.
Not much disturbance on removing the rock, and the ammonia, nitrite & nitrate results were still good afterwards.
the wood was pre-soaked, and you used the gel rather than the liquid glue, and soaked it again overnight afterwards.

I'm a bit stumped as to even guess what the problem could be. Hopefully some of the others will be along to add to this discussion.




Offline Sue

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Re: Death of 4 Black Phantom Tetras
« Reply #6 on: July 28, 2020, 09:04:50 PM »
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I must admit to being stumped as well.
If there was something horrible with the water the shrimps would have been the first casualties.
After 6 weeks we can rule out some disease from the shop which would have killed them faster and the danios would have caught it was well.

 ???

Offline fcmf

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Re: Death of 4 Black Phantom Tetras
« Reply #7 on: July 28, 2020, 10:40:03 PM »
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Absolutely beautiful tank.  8)

The only issue that slightly confused me was the mention of ammonia plus the use of a Tetra 6-in-1 test strip. As the 6-in-1 test strip doesn't actually have an ammonia test on it, which brand and type of test kit did you use for the ammonia reading (or is there any possibility you've mistakenly assumed one of the tests on the 6-in-1 test strip was ammonia when it might have been chlorine, for example)?
On Monday the Ammonia and Nitrite were 0ppm. Nitrate was 20ppm (Tetra 6 in 1 dip test kit).

Alternatively/additionally, is there any possibility that something else occurred in the room on Sunday evening such as a scented candle burnt, a plug-in air freshener or an insect spray used, or any DIY painting done ie something external to the tank? https://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/features/toxic-shock-the-everyday-chemicals-that-can-kill-your-fish/



Offline davebayfield

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Re: Death of 4 Black Phantom Tetras
« Reply #8 on: July 29, 2020, 08:03:22 AM »
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Thanks for taking the time to respond to my post (and thanks for the compliments on the tank  :-*) I really do appreciate it.

fcmf - sorry my mistake, I use the Tetra 6 in 1 as well as a tetra ammonia dip test.
There were no scented candles or anything external done in the house that night that would've created any fumes that could have affected the water.

The only other thing I did do that day was tweak the temperature down from 25C to 23C as I was planning to add some cory pandas this week and I thought 25 might be slightly too warm for them (that's also the reason the rock got taken out, to create a little more bottom space for them). Although it's not exactly a massive drop in temperature is it?

As you've mentioned if it was a water quality issue I'd have expected shrimp casualties as well as the fish.

I'm starting to think it might have been a combination of factors, maybe some issues with the glue, rearranging the tank along with some fish that were slightly more nervous than the others?
The 2 male black phantoms that have survived are the ones that generally occupied the centre of the tank, the other 4 tended to spent quite a bit of time hiding in the plants, so maybe they were a bit more stressed by the change in surroundings?

A Selection of Fish in my Fish Community Creator Tanks
Zebra Danio (4) - Black Phantom Tetra (6) - Japonica Shrimp (6) - Panda Cory (5) - Pygmy Cory (6) - Zebra Danio (6) - Rummy Nose Tetra (12) - Japonica Shrimp (15) - Kuhli Loach (aka Coolie) (6) - Pygmy Cory (8) - Black Phantom Tetra (8) - Otocinclus (6) - Serpae Tetra (10) -
Note: The user may not necessarily own these fish, these are tanks that they may be building or researching for stocking purposes


Offline Matt

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Re: Death of 4 Black Phantom Tetras
« Reply #9 on: July 31, 2020, 07:14:57 PM »
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It certainly doesn’t seem like there’s any one obvious thing going on here... if they were behaving differently to start (I believe black phantoms are normally quite outgoing like your remaining ones - though I’ve never kept them myself) it also may be that something just pushed them over the edge here and they may not have been ‘quite right’ before hand and may not have lasted long anyway. It doesn’t seem like you did anything wrong so I think you can rest reasonably easily.  Do you plan on restocking at all to bring the number in the group back up?

Offline davebayfield

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Re: Death of 4 Black Phantom Tetras
« Reply #10 on: August 03, 2020, 07:34:26 PM »
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I got 4 more black phantoms on Friday to bring the numbers back up. They're still a little shy at the moment but hopefully they'll start venturing out from behind the plants before long.

A Selection of Fish in my Fish Community Creator Tanks
Zebra Danio (4) - Black Phantom Tetra (6) - Japonica Shrimp (6) - Panda Cory (5) - Pygmy Cory (6) - Zebra Danio (6) - Rummy Nose Tetra (12) - Japonica Shrimp (15) - Kuhli Loach (aka Coolie) (6) - Pygmy Cory (8) - Black Phantom Tetra (8) - Otocinclus (6) - Serpae Tetra (10) -
Note: The user may not necessarily own these fish, these are tanks that they may be building or researching for stocking purposes


Offline fcmf

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Re: Death of 4 Black Phantom Tetras
« Reply #11 on: August 03, 2020, 07:58:46 PM »
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 :cheers:  Hope all goes well.
 :fishy1: :fishy1: :fishy1: :fishy1:

 


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