Can Anyone Help Me Help My Angel

Author Topic: Can anyone help me help my angel  (Read 5336 times) 14 replies

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Offline Cherry Margot

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Can anyone help me help my angel
« on: December 25, 2020, 07:58:49 PM »
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Hi
Can anyone help me
One of my angelfish pair has suddenly (last 3 days) developed issues with both ventral find, appeared bent with a nodule and flacid, bit broke off one, the other now looks red
He acts normally
Trigon 190 established 8 years
4 SAEs (who can be a bit pesky but not usually an issue) small school cardinal tetras, pair bristlenose
The female angel is fine
They had eggs a few weeks ago that I had to remove due to aggression from him to her
The only change is I introduced some more cardinals, which were too small and most of which he ate
I do about 10 percent water change daily
Nitrite 0, Ammonia 0, nitrate 10
Attached the best photo I could get
Thank you and Merry Xmas




Offline Littlefish

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Re: Can anyone help me help my angel
« Reply #1 on: December 26, 2020, 12:00:47 AM »
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Hi @Cherry Margot
I'm not experienced with angels as I have not kept them myself, so I'm not sure how much help I can give until some of the more experienced keepers pop in.
Did you quarantine the cardinals prior to adding them to the tank?
Have you seen any aggression from any of the other fish in the tank.
What sort of decor do you have in the tank? Anything the fish could have damaged the fins on?
At the moment I'm thinking infection and/or injury, but will have to get some more information & do some more research.

Offline Cherry Margot

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Re: Can anyone help me help my angel
« Reply #2 on: December 26, 2020, 12:21:17 AM »
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Hi thanks. No unfortunately I don't have a quarantine tank but they came from a reliable shop where they had been for three weeks with no issues.
I didn't realise they were still small enough to be eaten!
There is no aggression in the tank. Although there was some trouble a few weeks ago when there were eggs, but the fish with the damaged fins was the aggressor.
The SAEs can be a bit pesky at feeding time but they've lived together a couple of years with no real issues.
The female angel is absolutely fine.
The tank floor is heavily planted, there is some wood and smooth pebbles.
Im wondering if I should dose the tank with some medication. I've not done this before. I don't want to knock out my filter bacteria.

Offline Littlefish

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Re: Can anyone help me help my angel
« Reply #3 on: December 26, 2020, 10:10:30 AM »
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It is possible that the cardinals carried some disease into your tank.
It is common practice for shops to dose their tanks systems with a variety of medications. This can deal with issues, or can subdue problems which can then crop up when you take the fish to your own unmedicated tank.
We tend to recommend a quarantine period of at leas 4 weeks which gives most things time to show up.

Also, just to check, what is your water hardness? And what temperature are you keeping the tank at?
Obviously your tank is well established and your ammonia/nitrite/nitrate levels look great, so I thought I'd just confirms some of the other parameters too.
Also, if you can get any more pictures of the fish that would be good. Not easy, but can be helpful.

At the moment I would be tempted to do one larger water change a week rather than smaller daily water changes. Or perhaps do 2 x 50% water changes a week. This may be enough to give your angel time to heal itself.
As for medication, I tend to use eSHA 2000 for general infection/injury. It's fine for your filter bacteria and won't have a negative impact on your tank. It's also safe for shrimp (if you have any), but is a problem for snails.

As mentioned yesterday, I've not kept angels, so it would be good to get other keepers advice too.

Offline Cherry Margot

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Re: Can anyone help me help my angel
« Reply #4 on: December 26, 2020, 08:33:39 PM »
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Thank you for this. I will try to get some better photos.
He is no better fin wise but is fine in himself.
That was the medication I was wondering about. My tank is full of little trumpet snails to keep me the sand turned over and I do have a really old nerite ( he must be ten or more now). There will be carnage if all the snails die off as there are so many.
I will do some bigger water changes. It's all done in a v primitive way with buckets so I find smaller easier routinely.
We have v hard water here. I will check oh, it's quite high. Lots of limestone around here. Temp 26
Thanks again for the help. I'm trying to work out how to link the post to the angelfish section?

Offline Littlefish

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Re: Can anyone help me help my angel
« Reply #5 on: December 26, 2020, 11:36:49 PM »
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I have hard water too.
Sometimes it can be a problem with limiting the fish that can be kept, but it can also make your tank very stable.
It may be worth avoiding the medication if you have a lot of snails in the tank. If they all die it is going to cause a lot of problems. As you say - carnage.
If your fish seems ok in himself, still eating well and acting as expected, perhaps lots of water changes while he heals will be fine.
Keep a close eye on him to see if you can work out where the initial damage/infection came from. Monitor interactions with other fish for potential harm.
If anything deteriorates (behavior, appetite, mood) then we may have to reconsider medication. If this is the case it may have to be done in a separate tank/container to ensure the snail problem doesn't arise. We'll cross that bridge if/when we come to it.
Fingers crossed that it is a health issue that will sort itself out over the next few weeks.  :)

Offline Littlefish

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Re: Can anyone help me help my angel
« Reply #6 on: December 26, 2020, 11:41:58 PM »
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If you do need to medicate your fish in the tank you could try API Melafix, which says it is safe for snails.
 :)

Offline Cherry Margot

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Re: Can anyone help me help my angel
« Reply #7 on: December 27, 2020, 09:02:07 AM »
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Thank you again.I did wonder about Melafix. I have used it once in the past and although it didn't seem to do.much it certainly didn't seem to hurt anything.
Would it help if I raised the temperature at all?
I'm wondering about the SAEs , he is holding his fins in when they are about, but they've lived together fine so so long. I'm thinking maybe because the fins are limp and damaged they are mistaking them for food
If I need to treat him in a separate container I'm guessing he only needs to stay there while the treatment is actually administered? It's going to be stressful for him poor chap

Offline Littlefish

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Re: Can anyone help me help my angel
« Reply #8 on: December 27, 2020, 10:09:49 AM »
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SAEs normally graze on things rather than feeding mid-water, so I'm not sure if they would swim up and nibble on a fin.
If I have a sick fish I normally treat it separately in a quarantine tank, which can allow for targeted treatment. However, you can treat poorly fish in the main tank. Looking at the Melafix information it is suitable for use on tanks with shrimp, snail, and plecos. However, some people reviewing the product are saying that it is not particularly effective, so this may ne a bit of a tough choice.
I'm still not sure if your angel has fin damage/infection, or if it could be fin rot. Hopefully some of the other forum users that have more experience will be able to help identify the cause of the problem, and we can work out the way forward from there.
Do you have any medications already? Or do you need to get hold of them?
I'd be tempted to go with a big tank clean & larger water change for now, perhaps consider getting hold of some melafix, and we'll see if any of the others forum users have any further advice before we consider a course treatment.

Offline Cherry Margot

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Re: Can anyone help me help my angel
« Reply #9 on: December 27, 2020, 03:17:01 PM »
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 My SAEs are greedy chaps and will eat anywhere there is food and always join the surface fray at feeding time even though they get wafers and cucumber!
Thanks for all your advice, much appreciated
Ive just done a big water change and will do another tomorrow

Offline Cherry Margot

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Re: Can anyone help me help my angel
« Reply #10 on: December 28, 2020, 06:46:02 PM »
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So angels damaged fins have now broken off leaving frayed edges.
He still seems fine I'm himself, trying to catch and eat the few remaining baby cardinals
However I have noticed that the SAEs are being v pesky and bothering both angels and trying to.nip
I don't understand this. They are several years old and have lived together harmoniously up until now. I've never seen them do this before.
The angels were content enough that they had eggs only a few weeks ago


Offline Littlefish

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Re: Can anyone help me help my angel
« Reply #11 on: December 28, 2020, 09:17:10 PM »
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Sorry to hear that the fin is broken, but it's good that the fish is still behaving normally.
Doing some research and there is mention of SAE becoming more territorial as they get older/larger, and also some noting that they will nip at long finned fish.
Has anything changed in the tank recently? Any decor moved? Anything that could have disturbed the SAE and/or caused a change in behavior? It could also just be one of those things that we don't get to the bottom of.
Whether or not your SAE caused the original damage, they now seem to be bothering the angels, so you may need to consider splitting them up, either until the angel fins heal, or as a permanent move.
In the short term it may be possible to insert a large piece of plastic mesh into your tank to split the fish up, it is something I've done in the past, but it very much depends on the layout of your tank.
Also, I don't know if having more caves and hiding places will make the SAE a bit calmer and less likely to nip. Or it could just be the the ragged end of a damaged fin is just too tempting to resist. I think you'll have to monitor the situation quite closely and keep us informed.



Offline Cherry Margot

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Re: Can anyone help me help my angel
« Reply #12 on: January 12, 2021, 08:37:28 AM »
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Thank you littlefish. As an update the ventral fins have disappeared almost to the end of the thin bits but the edges look a bit better and there doesn't seem to be any damage to the thicker bit of the fins.
He's still eating very well and seems ok in himself.
The SAEs have calmed down a bit. They seem to get v excitable at water changes.
I will monitor closely and will have to re-home them if things don't settle.
Seems v strange after so long.
Thanks for your help

Offline Littlefish

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Re: Can anyone help me help my angel
« Reply #13 on: January 14, 2021, 09:12:54 AM »
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Thanks for the update.
It's good to hear that the fish have settled and the angel is still eating well.
I hope that the fins continue to heal.  :)

Offline fcmf

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Re: Can anyone help me help my angel
« Reply #14 on: January 14, 2021, 04:05:12 PM »
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I can't add anything to the helpful advice already provided by Littlefish, other than agree that regular water changes to ensure 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite and low nitrates (no more than 20 above tap water nitrate levels) and API Melafix seem the best interim plan, with additional caves and hiding places created for the SAEs to keep them occupied and reduce the temptation of the angels' long fins.

I would have thought that losing the ventral fins, and on both sides, oughtn't to be as problematic for swimming as the pectoral fins or dorsal fin in a fish - but, equally, worth watching to ensure that finrot doesn't set in. If it does, you may need to consider eSHa 2000 or Waterlife Myxazin.

Hope you don't have to re-home but, as you say, if the situation doesn't settle, then that may be the only option if two separate tanks aren't possible.

 


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