Struggling With Plants And Algae

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Offline Marcus_F

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Struggling with plants and algae
« on: June 02, 2020, 06:00:03 PM »
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Can I still post in newbie section, my tank is now 8 months old :D

I'm still not happy with the tank though, I buy plants to die in my tank, there is little else they seem to do except some from the outset which still spring new growth from the base (Echinodorus bleheri and Vallisneria sp. ‘Natans’)

Both are now covered in what I've determind is black beard algae and I've tried the SeachemFlourish route and it kills spots but it's growing faster it seems than I can spot treat without overdosing.  It's not taken over the tank  far from it, almost looks like it should be part of the Vallisneria sp. ‘Natans’ but I know looking closely it annoys me.

I've done a tone of research and it all says algae is from poor water conditions but unless I'm doing some drastically wrong I don't think my water is bad.  I now use 50/50 with RO water, nitrate level is 20ppm at the weekly 20% water change.  Ammonia and Nitrite are spot on at 0ppm.  PH still 8.2 and the hardness has come down thanks to RO water to KH 71 and GH 160 (think that is the right way round, need to check figures I had.

I've read BBA could be poor circulation so I've got a powerhead coming just to help with circulation I do spot some debris at the back of the tank and my heater is now showing LF which it hasn't for past 7months.  I need to work out why I've got BBA and so much online I just don't know where to begin.

I think I need to get my plants growing to out compete with the BBA, so I've invested in a new light, gone of the Fluval AquaSky (1100 lumen) I now have the Fluval Plant Spectrum 3.0 which can now give off 2400 lumen which is what is needed based on Tropica site.

Now online I'm reading the best settings and I have it down at 50% for most whites, 25% for red and 3% blue.  Does that mean I've wasted my money and I should've stuck to the original light given I'm only using 50% of it  :vcross: 

The reason I turned to a new light source is Limnophila sessiliflora was struggling to stay upright and browning so surely a sign of poor light.  Having made adjustments to the light it seems darker than original.  Is it a case of don't trust my eyes, the light is better so doesn't have to appear brighter?

I feel like I'm at a loss, increase light to feed plant demands but then it will help the algae grow.

A Selection of Fish in my Fish Community Creator Tanks
Dwarf Rainbowfish (5) - Rosy Tetra (2) - Cardinal Tetra (10) - Cherry Barb (7) - Black Widow Tetra (4) - Pearl Danio (1) - Zebra Danio (3) - Otocinclus (2) - Penguin Tetra (4) - Dwarf Rainbowfish (4) - X-ray Tetra (4) - Penguin Tetra (4) - Black Widow Tetra (5) - Bloodfin Tetra (5) - Cherry Barb (5) - Golden Barb (5) - White Cloud Mountain Minnow (5) - Black Neon Tetra (5) - Otocinclus (6) - Dwarf Gourami (4) - Galaxy Rasbora (4) - Harlequin Rasbora (8) - Blue Tetra (5) - Cardinal Tetra (10) - Dwarf Rainbowfish (5) - Rosy Tetra (2) - Cherry Barb (8) - Bloodfin Tetra (6) - Harlequin Rasbora (8) - Penguin Tetra (5) -
Note: The user may not necessarily own these fish, these are tanks that they may be building or researching for stocking purposes


Offline fcmf

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Re: Struggling with plants and algae
« Reply #1 on: June 02, 2020, 06:10:19 PM »
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Great minds - I was about to post about algae on plants too, albeit more about identification of what type of algae mine actually is.

Limnophila sessiliflora was the one plant I'd had some success with lately but also found it was browning (or at least brown algae was growing around it) - and I killed it inadvertently through fiddling with it and trying to remove the brown algae which was holding it together.

Anyway, I'm not sure I can help with your queries at all, other than to offer my full empathy as someone else who's not great at keeping plants alive. Hopefully, some of the others may be able to help.



Offline Marcus_F

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Re: Struggling with plants and algae
« Reply #2 on: June 02, 2020, 06:28:24 PM »
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You sure it's great minds if we're both killing plants and have algae   ::)

I'm at a cross road, increase light either by length (currently 9hrs) or intensity over say 7 or 8hrs.  I've even looked at CO2 kits but that looks confusing.

A Selection of Fish in my Fish Community Creator Tanks
Dwarf Rainbowfish (5) - Rosy Tetra (2) - Cardinal Tetra (10) - Cherry Barb (7) - Black Widow Tetra (4) - Pearl Danio (1) - Zebra Danio (3) - Otocinclus (2) - Penguin Tetra (4) - Dwarf Rainbowfish (4) - X-ray Tetra (4) - Penguin Tetra (4) - Black Widow Tetra (5) - Bloodfin Tetra (5) - Cherry Barb (5) - Golden Barb (5) - White Cloud Mountain Minnow (5) - Black Neon Tetra (5) - Otocinclus (6) - Dwarf Gourami (4) - Galaxy Rasbora (4) - Harlequin Rasbora (8) - Blue Tetra (5) - Cardinal Tetra (10) - Dwarf Rainbowfish (5) - Rosy Tetra (2) - Cherry Barb (8) - Bloodfin Tetra (6) - Harlequin Rasbora (8) - Penguin Tetra (5) -
Note: The user may not necessarily own these fish, these are tanks that they may be building or researching for stocking purposes


Offline fcmf

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Re: Struggling with plants and algae
« Reply #3 on: June 02, 2020, 06:47:50 PM »
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Good point! Terrible minds might be a more appropriate phrase.

@Matt and @jaypeecee (and others) have interest and expertise in these areas, so will no doubt be able to advise.

Offline Matt

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Re: Struggling with plants and algae
« Reply #4 on: June 02, 2020, 06:48:38 PM »
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What fertilisation are you doing??

Offline Marcus_F

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Re: Struggling with plants and algae
« Reply #5 on: June 02, 2020, 07:05:48 PM »
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I’m using JBL Ferropol the green bottle. 20ML midweek, 40ML at water change but will admit I’ve been lapse on the midweek one.

I also currently add 8ml of seachem flourish excel using a calpol syringe to add directly to some plant leaves every day.  Again it’s been more like every other day.

That’s all I use and the substrate is the Caribsea Eco Complete.

 

A Selection of Fish in my Fish Community Creator Tanks
Dwarf Rainbowfish (5) - Rosy Tetra (2) - Cardinal Tetra (10) - Cherry Barb (7) - Black Widow Tetra (4) - Pearl Danio (1) - Zebra Danio (3) - Otocinclus (2) - Penguin Tetra (4) - Dwarf Rainbowfish (4) - X-ray Tetra (4) - Penguin Tetra (4) - Black Widow Tetra (5) - Bloodfin Tetra (5) - Cherry Barb (5) - Golden Barb (5) - White Cloud Mountain Minnow (5) - Black Neon Tetra (5) - Otocinclus (6) - Dwarf Gourami (4) - Galaxy Rasbora (4) - Harlequin Rasbora (8) - Blue Tetra (5) - Cardinal Tetra (10) - Dwarf Rainbowfish (5) - Rosy Tetra (2) - Cherry Barb (8) - Bloodfin Tetra (6) - Harlequin Rasbora (8) - Penguin Tetra (5) -
Note: The user may not necessarily own these fish, these are tanks that they may be building or researching for stocking purposes


Offline Marcus_F

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Re: Struggling with plants and algae
« Reply #6 on: June 02, 2020, 07:07:54 PM »
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A Selection of Fish in my Fish Community Creator Tanks
Dwarf Rainbowfish (5) - Rosy Tetra (2) - Cardinal Tetra (10) - Cherry Barb (7) - Black Widow Tetra (4) - Pearl Danio (1) - Zebra Danio (3) - Otocinclus (2) - Penguin Tetra (4) - Dwarf Rainbowfish (4) - X-ray Tetra (4) - Penguin Tetra (4) - Black Widow Tetra (5) - Bloodfin Tetra (5) - Cherry Barb (5) - Golden Barb (5) - White Cloud Mountain Minnow (5) - Black Neon Tetra (5) - Otocinclus (6) - Dwarf Gourami (4) - Galaxy Rasbora (4) - Harlequin Rasbora (8) - Blue Tetra (5) - Cardinal Tetra (10) - Dwarf Rainbowfish (5) - Rosy Tetra (2) - Cherry Barb (8) - Bloodfin Tetra (6) - Harlequin Rasbora (8) - Penguin Tetra (5) -
Note: The user may not necessarily own these fish, these are tanks that they may be building or researching for stocking purposes


Offline jaypeecee

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Re: Struggling with plants and algae
« Reply #7 on: June 02, 2020, 07:52:55 PM »
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Hi @Marcus_F

It's so frustrating, isn't it? And, in my opinion, I would not use Fluval lighting at all. Anyway, that's where we have to start. I sometimes compare light to the conductor of an orchestra. S/he dictates the pace of the music and all the players with their instruments have to keep up. So, the intensity of the lighting determines how much fertilizers are needed - including carbon. The whole idea is that the plants consume the fertilizers leaving little available in the water column for algae to get their mitts on.

It's often advised to start with a photoperiod (the duration the lights are ON) of just six hours and slowly increase this over time to eight hours or a tad more. It's hard to advise about intensity/brightness. My suggestion is that you start with the lowest brightness with which you can comfortably see your plants and fish. But, don't go any brighter - just yet.

The JBL Ferropol should be OK. I see you're using Excel. People have mixed views about this stuff. I have little experience with it. But, I am led to believe that it's unsuitable for use with Vallisneria.

Those are my initial thoughts.

JPC

Offline Marcus_F

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Re: Struggling with plants and algae
« Reply #8 on: June 02, 2020, 09:24:30 PM »
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Dont tell me I should'nt go Fluval lighting haha, I went on a mad lock down spending spree at the weekend.  Bought the new light which was not cheap, power head, Co2 test kit and i'm sure some other bits I've forgotten about which will appear in the post soon.

I read Co2 fluctuations due to bad water flow could be a cause hence the power head.  I since remembered I added 2 months ago the Fluval Phosphate removal media and two weeks ago changed it.  Having read up about the triangle of components needed for plant life I realised I could be remove much needed phosphorous and potassium.  I've just removed it and add some polisher pads instead and flow seems better so I wonder if that was a cause.

Can you test all the levels of nutrients in the water to see where you're going wrong or is trial and error?

A Selection of Fish in my Fish Community Creator Tanks
Dwarf Rainbowfish (5) - Rosy Tetra (2) - Cardinal Tetra (10) - Cherry Barb (7) - Black Widow Tetra (4) - Pearl Danio (1) - Zebra Danio (3) - Otocinclus (2) - Penguin Tetra (4) - Dwarf Rainbowfish (4) - X-ray Tetra (4) - Penguin Tetra (4) - Black Widow Tetra (5) - Bloodfin Tetra (5) - Cherry Barb (5) - Golden Barb (5) - White Cloud Mountain Minnow (5) - Black Neon Tetra (5) - Otocinclus (6) - Dwarf Gourami (4) - Galaxy Rasbora (4) - Harlequin Rasbora (8) - Blue Tetra (5) - Cardinal Tetra (10) - Dwarf Rainbowfish (5) - Rosy Tetra (2) - Cherry Barb (8) - Bloodfin Tetra (6) - Harlequin Rasbora (8) - Penguin Tetra (5) -
Note: The user may not necessarily own these fish, these are tanks that they may be building or researching for stocking purposes


Offline jaypeecee

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Re: Struggling with plants and algae
« Reply #9 on: June 03, 2020, 10:07:46 AM »
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Dont tell me I should'nt go Fluval lighting haha...

Hi @Marcus_F

I'm not sure what you are saying here. You chose Fluval lighting so that's where we must now start.

JPC

Offline Marcus_F

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Re: Struggling with plants and algae
« Reply #10 on: June 03, 2020, 10:21:21 AM »
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@jaypeecee meaning as a joke :)

I’ve had the Fluval light less than 24hrs at some expense to try fix light issues and your reply was you wouldn’t use it.  As in I’ve already made my first error  ;D

A Selection of Fish in my Fish Community Creator Tanks
Dwarf Rainbowfish (5) - Rosy Tetra (2) - Cardinal Tetra (10) - Cherry Barb (7) - Black Widow Tetra (4) - Pearl Danio (1) - Zebra Danio (3) - Otocinclus (2) - Penguin Tetra (4) - Dwarf Rainbowfish (4) - X-ray Tetra (4) - Penguin Tetra (4) - Black Widow Tetra (5) - Bloodfin Tetra (5) - Cherry Barb (5) - Golden Barb (5) - White Cloud Mountain Minnow (5) - Black Neon Tetra (5) - Otocinclus (6) - Dwarf Gourami (4) - Galaxy Rasbora (4) - Harlequin Rasbora (8) - Blue Tetra (5) - Cardinal Tetra (10) - Dwarf Rainbowfish (5) - Rosy Tetra (2) - Cherry Barb (8) - Bloodfin Tetra (6) - Harlequin Rasbora (8) - Penguin Tetra (5) -
Note: The user may not necessarily own these fish, these are tanks that they may be building or researching for stocking purposes


Offline Marcus_F

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Re: Struggling with plants and algae
« Reply #11 on: June 03, 2020, 04:04:31 PM »
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So I contacted Fluval basically to ask, if my new 2400 lumen light at 40% spectrum was the same as my original 1100 lumen at 100%.  They didnt really answer that question, instead said put my lights up to 80%, 20% water change every other week and to add Phosphrate removal pads to filter to combat the HAIR algae.  I did say it was black beard but they confirmed they are the same in relation to phosphate.

Now I'm sure I read plants needed phosphates.

Anyway, today being the first full day of the new light, one of my stem plants which was leaning over, is now upright.  I mean it's small progress.  Took more cuttings from the browning Limnophila sessiliflora so I have them dotted around in 3 areas of tank now to see if it takes up in one area better than the other.

A Selection of Fish in my Fish Community Creator Tanks
Dwarf Rainbowfish (5) - Rosy Tetra (2) - Cardinal Tetra (10) - Cherry Barb (7) - Black Widow Tetra (4) - Pearl Danio (1) - Zebra Danio (3) - Otocinclus (2) - Penguin Tetra (4) - Dwarf Rainbowfish (4) - X-ray Tetra (4) - Penguin Tetra (4) - Black Widow Tetra (5) - Bloodfin Tetra (5) - Cherry Barb (5) - Golden Barb (5) - White Cloud Mountain Minnow (5) - Black Neon Tetra (5) - Otocinclus (6) - Dwarf Gourami (4) - Galaxy Rasbora (4) - Harlequin Rasbora (8) - Blue Tetra (5) - Cardinal Tetra (10) - Dwarf Rainbowfish (5) - Rosy Tetra (2) - Cherry Barb (8) - Bloodfin Tetra (6) - Harlequin Rasbora (8) - Penguin Tetra (5) -
Note: The user may not necessarily own these fish, these are tanks that they may be building or researching for stocking purposes


Offline fcmf

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Re: Struggling with plants and algae
« Reply #12 on: June 03, 2020, 06:41:30 PM »
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Dont tell me I should'nt go Fluval lighting haha, I went on a mad lock down spending spree at the weekend.
you wouldn’t use it.  As in I’ve already made my first error
Firstly, don't panic - it's not an error. Everyone has different views on lighting systems. JPC and possibly others on here don't like Fluval lighting but I've read of plenty of others who use it and rave about how good it is and wouldn't try anything else. I'll have a dig around those posts elsewhere and see if I can find anything in relation to your issues that might remedy it - won't get a chance to do this until later in the week, though.

I'm a bit perplexed as to why Fluval only suggested a fortnightly water change and what their rationale was - I'd stick with weekly (assuming that's what you do).

Sounds a good plan to try out the plant in different locations to see where it does best - keep us posted on this.

I'm afraid I'll have to leave the rest of your questions to others.

Offline Matt

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Re: Struggling with plants and algae
« Reply #13 on: June 03, 2020, 08:50:16 PM »
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@Marcus_F I seem to be offering the same advice simultaneously to fcmf in relation to this - have you seen her thread?

The overwhelmingly most important thing in combatting algae growth is strong and health plant growth. To achieve this you can dose fertiliser in excess to ensure the plants requirements are being met. Health plant growth limits algae growth. Of course things do have to be balanced and a significant excess of one particular nutrient can lead to algae. BBA is not associated with high phosphate levels and so I don’t believe the removal pads are helping here. Also FWIW I have the fluval aquasky lighting and it grows plants very well - they fact that they are now stood up growing towards the light is a very good sign indeed.

Offline Marcus_F

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Re: Struggling with plants and algae
« Reply #14 on: June 04, 2020, 05:19:03 PM »
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Thanks Matt, not seen the other thread, anyone able to share the subject and I'll go hunting.

Test kit arrived for Phosphate today, reading is 0.25ppm so no issues there.  Not sure if the pads in for two days would reduce it significantly for my test today to have been too late to see high troublesome readings.

I didnt believe Phosphate was the issue but when you speak to Fluval directly you expect to receive a reliable answer.  It seems not. 

Do the plants need phosphate to grow or is 0.25ppm an ok reading?

A Selection of Fish in my Fish Community Creator Tanks
Dwarf Rainbowfish (5) - Rosy Tetra (2) - Cardinal Tetra (10) - Cherry Barb (7) - Black Widow Tetra (4) - Pearl Danio (1) - Zebra Danio (3) - Otocinclus (2) - Penguin Tetra (4) - Dwarf Rainbowfish (4) - X-ray Tetra (4) - Penguin Tetra (4) - Black Widow Tetra (5) - Bloodfin Tetra (5) - Cherry Barb (5) - Golden Barb (5) - White Cloud Mountain Minnow (5) - Black Neon Tetra (5) - Otocinclus (6) - Dwarf Gourami (4) - Galaxy Rasbora (4) - Harlequin Rasbora (8) - Blue Tetra (5) - Cardinal Tetra (10) - Dwarf Rainbowfish (5) - Rosy Tetra (2) - Cherry Barb (8) - Bloodfin Tetra (6) - Harlequin Rasbora (8) - Penguin Tetra (5) -
Note: The user may not necessarily own these fish, these are tanks that they may be building or researching for stocking purposes


Offline fcmf

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Re: Struggling with plants and algae
« Reply #15 on: June 04, 2020, 05:53:42 PM »
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Hi Marcus,

It's this thread, started a while back but resumed at the same time as yours: https://forums.thinkfish.co.uk/fish-tank-plant-advice/tank-photo-containing-live-plants/msg49192/?topicseen#new

I very much doubt that there's any possibility of your phosphate pads reducing its reading much. On my API kit, I have 4.0 ppm or 5.0 ppm phosphate in the tankwater and tapwater but the phosphate pads only reduce it a little - to about 3.0 ppm or 4.0 ppm.

Out of interest, what is your tapwater reading for phosphate?


Offline Marcus_F

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Re: Struggling with plants and algae
« Reply #16 on: June 04, 2020, 06:33:00 PM »
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Thanks will look at that shortly.  Just tested tap water also 0.25ppm.  Half my tank will be RO water too.

Reduced temp slightly to 24.5 with a plan to get it down to 23.5 tomorrow.  Was 25.5 sometimes 26 with last weeks weather.

A Selection of Fish in my Fish Community Creator Tanks
Dwarf Rainbowfish (5) - Rosy Tetra (2) - Cardinal Tetra (10) - Cherry Barb (7) - Black Widow Tetra (4) - Pearl Danio (1) - Zebra Danio (3) - Otocinclus (2) - Penguin Tetra (4) - Dwarf Rainbowfish (4) - X-ray Tetra (4) - Penguin Tetra (4) - Black Widow Tetra (5) - Bloodfin Tetra (5) - Cherry Barb (5) - Golden Barb (5) - White Cloud Mountain Minnow (5) - Black Neon Tetra (5) - Otocinclus (6) - Dwarf Gourami (4) - Galaxy Rasbora (4) - Harlequin Rasbora (8) - Blue Tetra (5) - Cardinal Tetra (10) - Dwarf Rainbowfish (5) - Rosy Tetra (2) - Cherry Barb (8) - Bloodfin Tetra (6) - Harlequin Rasbora (8) - Penguin Tetra (5) -
Note: The user may not necessarily own these fish, these are tanks that they may be building or researching for stocking purposes


Offline Matt

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Re: Struggling with plants and algae
« Reply #17 on: June 04, 2020, 07:54:09 PM »
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Your phos level will be fine @Marcus_F

Offline fcmf

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Re: Struggling with plants and algae
« Reply #18 on: June 08, 2020, 03:45:53 PM »
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Offline Marcus_F

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Re: Struggling with plants and algae
« Reply #19 on: June 08, 2020, 04:54:03 PM »
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Thanks, read them really quickly but will read in more detail tonight and consume the facts.  I did see low CO2 being the cause for hair algae and potentially BBA which I think I have.  I bought a power head to distribute the water (and the CO2 in it) more efficiently.

I've been reading up on KH and PH relationship to CO2.  According to all the charts my PH of 8.2 is a real issue for CO2 in that I have 1ppm :(  I've been trying to work out how with a KH of 5 I can lower PH.  Only needs to get to 7.8 to dramatically improve my CO2 content.

A Selection of Fish in my Fish Community Creator Tanks
Dwarf Rainbowfish (5) - Rosy Tetra (2) - Cardinal Tetra (10) - Cherry Barb (7) - Black Widow Tetra (4) - Pearl Danio (1) - Zebra Danio (3) - Otocinclus (2) - Penguin Tetra (4) - Dwarf Rainbowfish (4) - X-ray Tetra (4) - Penguin Tetra (4) - Black Widow Tetra (5) - Bloodfin Tetra (5) - Cherry Barb (5) - Golden Barb (5) - White Cloud Mountain Minnow (5) - Black Neon Tetra (5) - Otocinclus (6) - Dwarf Gourami (4) - Galaxy Rasbora (4) - Harlequin Rasbora (8) - Blue Tetra (5) - Cardinal Tetra (10) - Dwarf Rainbowfish (5) - Rosy Tetra (2) - Cherry Barb (8) - Bloodfin Tetra (6) - Harlequin Rasbora (8) - Penguin Tetra (5) -
Note: The user may not necessarily own these fish, these are tanks that they may be building or researching for stocking purposes


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