Moving Fish Internationally (to USA)

I’m not so sure this is a good idea... in a sealed bag the co2 concentration rising in the water lowers pH which in turn lowers the toxicity of ammonia. This is why many (myself included) prefer the ‘plop and drop’ method of introducing fish to limit their exposure to this toxic ammonia.  I assume that it the co2 is being driven off the ammonia toxicity in the bag would not be dampened by the power pH.  Interested in others view on this as I can’t claim to understand the science behind this effect...

Matt's concern is that in the typical fish shop plastic bag, fish both breathe out CO2 and excrete ammonia. The CO2 dissolves in the water making it acidic, which pushes the ammonia towards ammonium. With breathable bags, there is no CO2 build up in the water, the water will be less acidic so more ammonia will be in the ammonia form, and harmful to the fish.

Because we have all been told for years and years that we should not leave fish in water that contains the ammonia form for as long as it will take to get the fish to their new home.

Just how much ammonia will be in the water by the time the fish get to their destination?

Because we have all been told for years and years that we should not leave fish in water that contains the ammonia form for as long as it will take to get the fish to their new home.

Just how much ammonia will be in the water by the time the fish get to their destination?

Hi @Sue

If the pH remains constant during transit, any excreted ammonia will remain in the ammonium form, won't it? And, what then happens when the bag is opened, nothing will change, will it? I'm thinking on my feet here!

JPC

Given that prime detoxifies the ammonia for 24 hours, I’d say your suggestion to use it is very sensible Nan.

Thanks for filling the chemistry gaps in my reply Sue, much appreciated!

JPC, I think it’s the other way round... To put it in different words in case it helps (and Sue please fact check this!): with a normal sealed bag the build up of co2 in the water over time will lower the pH therefore less toxic ammonium will be formed from the fish waste. In the breathable bag, co2 will not increase however the fish waste will. If the pH is higher in comparison because the co2 is able to escape, then the fish waste will be in the more toxic ammonia form.

I’m not doubting whether the product works as such, just whether a breathable bag is actually a good thing or not!! But it might be that Nan has provided the solution to get a best of both worlds. Again however, I can’t claim to understand the science behind Primes claim to reduce the toxicity of ammonia for 24 hours. It is entirely possible that the breathable bag company use something similar themselves.

In a breathable bag, the carbon dioxide is lost. But does ammonia also pass through the bag? If it does, the pH should remain fairly constant. But if it doesn't, as more ammonia is produced by the fish the pH will increase slightly and more of the ammonium will convert to ammonia.

I have been unable to find a reference as to whether ammonia passes though the bag or not.

Hi @Sue

Ammonia (NH₃) does indeed pass through the bag (assuming it is a silicone). Its permeability coefficient is approximately twice that of CO₂. See below:

https://permselect.com/membranes

The permeability coefficient of carbon dioxide is listed as 3250 and the permeability coefficient of ammonia  is 5900, as you will see. That being the case, the pH of the water in the Kordon Breathing Bags™ should remain reasonably constant. This assumes that the bag is made from silicone.

Edit on 11 Feb 2020 at 1040: named the product in question and stressed the assumption of the bag material being a type of silicone.

JPC

Just a thought here. Corys need to gulp air now and then.  Soooo, if I put them in the breathable bag, they won't be able to gulp. I wonder if the bags will work if they have some air in them, like a standard bag would? Otherwise they might suffocate?  Guess I'll email the manufacturer to ask.

Also, for anyone who needs to know: UPS will ship fish. But only in the USA, not from the UK to the USA. And only on "overnight" deliveries. (Which is sane, really.)

I have been in contact with several airlines, and those that do accept fish have sent me to talk to their freight forwarders.

Lufthansa advertises they do pets and tropical fish as cargo, but their freight forwarder in the UK (worldcourier.com) says they do NOT do pet tropical fish.  I've written back to Lufthansa for clarification. (My guess is that they do shipments of commercial tropicals, but not family pet tropicals.)

I'm still going around and around with American Airlines, as the person they told me to contact in the UK has not responded in over a week now....

United initially told me on chat they took tropical fish in their "Pet Safe" program, but it turns out that is only in the USA, not internationally.

British Airways uses IAG cargo. Who do not "do" tropical fish.

Air Canada requires pick-up and drop-off at the cargo terminals, and there are none appropriate in the UK, apparently. If there was one here, we'd have to go to Toronto to pick Big Bertha up on the other end. Which I'm willing to do, but....

Aer Lingus only allows cats and dogs, and they fly only on direct transatlantic flights. None of the short "hopper" flights to Dublin to connect with them are suitable due to the aircraft type.

WestJet allows live fish (and other pets), but not from the UK to the USA as the type of aircraft they fly on the long-haul flights are not appropriate for pets in cargo.

Delta allows live fish into the USA, as cargo, from the UK. Drop off and pick up at their cargo terminals five hours before the flight. International flights require a pet-shipper.  There actually is a Delta cargo terminal in Glasgow. (!) Waiting to hear from their preferred one.

Iberia allows fish in the cabin, but only on their own flights - no codeshare. I'm still looking into this one. We may need to fly Iberia to Madrid and then from Madrid to the USA. (I'm good with that.) If they'll allow Big Bertha and the Boys (etc.) in the cabin. Or on the plane at all!

Waiting on some responses from pet-shippers who advertise tropical fish ok. (Barbican and JCS)

Just a thought here. Corys need to gulp air now and then.  Soooo, if I put them in the breathable bag, they won't be able to gulp. I wonder if the bags will work if they have some air in them, like a standard bag would? Otherwise they might suffocate?  Guess I'll email the manufacturer to ask.

Hi @Nan

If an air space is retained inside the breathable bag, I would have thought that would be OK. But, it would be very wise to email Kordon. That way, you'll get a definitive answer and you'll have something in writing.

JPC

Apparently most of my problems arise with being a "private party". Apparently as a vendor I could ship "merchandise consisting of tropical/ornamental fish".

I am checking about getting an import license ($50) in the USA. Not sure what I'd have to do in the UK to be a "business" as far as the shipping agencies are concerned, though. Yet.

I really do hope that there's a suitable solution for you. Fingers crossed!

[If not, though, then at least it might be of some small consolation that you've explored every possibility. In the event it comes to considering alternatives, and again I hope it doesn't have to come to this, I wondered if it might be worth getting in touch with https://centralaquaristsociety.co.uk/ - I see there's a mention of someone who has a specific interest in cories and who might have contacts willing to give your gang a good home. Failing that, there is www.aquarist-classifieds.co.uk where you can advertise for the area you live in, and www.preloved.co.uk (where there's even a recent advert where someone from your area is looking for any fish that need rehomed and is prepared to travel).]

Keep us posted...