Author Topic: Water changes - proportion changed - discussion [some missing posts in thread] (Read 6689 times) 47 replies

fcmf · « **on:** December 30, 2019, 02:14:31 PM »

Hi folks,
I know it's been mentioned a few times on here about experts increasingly recommending 50% water changes, and indeed this is what I find I do myself by the time I've thoroughly siphoned up all the debris (snail poo and snail food messily eaten by the fish who steal it), but I've been wondering if there are any sources/references on this, and on what basis this is being recommended e.g. whether it has greater/lesser benefit for specific aspects of fishkeeping and/or whether there are any circumstances for which 50% might not be recommended? I'm still seeing 20-30% being advocated, or not challenged, by experts elsewhere - might it be that the evidence for 50% isn't yet strong enough to be published and cited, or is it simply a matter of this new view taking time to filter through?

Sue · « **Reply #1 on:** December 30, 2019, 04:51:02 PM »

It's probably taking time to filter through. Several decades ago, water changes were thought to be bad and were done only once every few months. The library books I read when I first got fish in the mid 1990s also cautioned that fish could die after a water change (which we now know was due to old tank syndrome)

The amount of water to be changed has been increasing during the time I've been keeping fish, from 10% to 25% then to 50%. I've recently read that we should be changing 75% a week.

I think the increasing volumes is due to our better understanding of what's in tank water. Before test kits, did anyone ever consider what was in the water? I know that hampalong has been keeping fish a long time, perhaps he could tell us what thinking was when he first had fish.

Sue · « **Reply #2 on:** December 30, 2019, 07:32:20 PM »

I think the nitrate level is partly the answer. But also realisation that there is a lot more in the water than we can test for, and those things need to be removed as well.

Matt · « **Reply #3 on:** December 30, 2019, 08:41:38 PM »

What I can say is that since starting 50% weekly water changes I have lost less fish to illness (very few in fact). That's all the reason I need to go for this volume.

To add to this from a planted tank perspective. EI dosing in a common fertiliser dosing strategy which doses in excess to ensure no deficiencies. This approach also advocated a 50% water change to 'reset those nutrient levels at the end of the week (though I personally have my doubts this can be achieved and found increased nitrates over time using this approach on my tank).

jaypeecee · « **Reply #4 on:** December 30, 2019, 10:15:45 PM »

Quote from: fcmf on December 30, 2019, 02:14:31 PM

Hi folks,
I know it's been mentioned a few times on here about experts increasingly recommending 50% water changes, and indeed this is what I find I do myself by the time I've thoroughly siphoned up all the debris (snail poo and snail food messily eaten by the fish who steal it), but I've been wondering if there are any sources/references on this, and on what basis this is being recommended e.g. whether it has greater/lesser benefit for specific aspects of fishkeeping and/or whether there are any circumstances for which 50% might not be recommended? I'm still seeing 20-30% being advocated, or not challenged, by experts elsewhere - might it be that the evidence for 50% isn't yet strong enough to be published and cited, or is it simply a matter of this new view taking time to filter through?

Hi @fcmf

In a nutshell, I don't think 'one size fits all'. What do I mean by that? Simple - I think the proportion and frequency of water changes should be based on science and observation. I choose to measure a range of water/lighting parameters and this gives me a pretty good idea of the aquatic environment. But, I cannot measure everything nor would I want to. So, that's where observation comes in - observing the fish, shrimps, snails, plants, etc. I change the frequency and amount of water accordingly. And I generally clean the filter media at the same time. As a rule, that works well for my tanks. And, if something goes amiss, I go looking for answers.

BTW, who are these 'experts' to whom you refer? There are some people who truly excel in some aspects of fishkeeping but I don't think even they would refer to themselves as 'experts'. I'm thinking of people like Dr Timothy Hovanec, Dr Gregory Morin, Diana Walstad and others whose names I fail to remember.

Just my two penn'orth.

JPC

fcmf · « **Reply #5 on:** December 30, 2019, 11:13:28 PM »

Completely agree with you, JPC.

Quote from: jaypeecee on December 30, 2019, 10:15:45 PM

BTW, who are these 'experts' to whom you refer?

Not entirely sure - it's others who have referred to "experts" but I'm equally keen to know who exactly they're referring to.

Sue · « **Reply #6 on:** December 31, 2019, 10:09:34 AM »

Experts are people like Neale Monks.

fcmf · « **Reply #7 on:** December 31, 2019, 11:09:05 AM »

Quote from: Sue on December 31, 2019, 10:09:34 AM

Experts are people like Neale Monks.

I had assumed/thought that's who one of them might have been - he certainly knows his stuff and is well-regarded.

jaypeecee · « **Reply #8 on:** December 31, 2019, 05:49:57 PM »

Quote from: Sue on December 30, 2019, 04:51:02 PM

I've recently read that we should be changing 75% a week.

Hi @Sue

May I ask where you read that? I'd love to see it. If someone has good reason for doing this, then I'll sit up and listen.

JPC

jaypeecee · « **Reply #9 on:** December 31, 2019, 06:20:58 PM »

Quote from: fishtales on December 30, 2019, 07:03:58 PM

Is the larger recommended water change now in part because we are aware that nitrates need to be kept lower than previously thought?

I don't know any science, but seems to me more fresh water regularly would keep our water more oxygenated (is that a word,lol) as well?

Hi @fishtales

On the first question above, you may well be correct. There is the potential for nitrates to just keep increasing in unplanted tanks if not kept in check. Media can be added to the filter and there are other techniques that can be used but I know of no-one that uses the latter. Probably the best way is to ensure that the tank is planted and let Nature do the work. Nitrates are absorbed by plants as they need the nitrogen. Having said that, plants will also absorb ammonia.

Regarding your second comment, there is no need to do a water change to improve oxygenation. Just ensure that the water surface is kept agitated at all times and this will take care of dissolved oxygen in the water. But, be aware that an oily film or slime on the water surface can interfere with this and extra measures may be needed. Also, ensure that the substrate is kept free of excess detritus as the breakdown of this waste consumes oxygen.

JPC

fcmf · « **Reply #10 on:** December 31, 2019, 06:54:03 PM »

What is your usual dGH reading, @fishtales ?
I noticed, a while back, that the reservoir supplying my water had changed - just as well I had input the postcode rather than checked the usual reservoir readings. This remained the case for several months, then reverted back to the previous reservoir. It was of no consequence to me as the readings were very similar but it may well be possible that water parameters do change, whether permanently or not.

Sue · « **Reply #11 on:** December 31, 2019, 07:09:55 PM »

Northumbrian Water changed their website a few weeks ago, and although it looks like there should be a link when you hover the pointer over it, clicking does nothing, though the other links do work. They say my water is slightly hard but a GH of 5 dH is soft in fish keeping terms. That's the problem with words, they can be misleading. Imagine someone reading that and thinking, I've got hard water so I need hard water fish.

On the subject of 75% water changes, it is a few people on another forum who have said this. The odd one or two reckons we should be changing 75% a week, though there is another one who says to do 75% water changes every day when the fish are obviously sick, not every week as routine.

I have put a marker pen dot on the corner of my tank half way between the water line when full and the substrate. This probably means I change more than 50% as the decor is all in the bottom half and will displace a lot of water. I have tried counting the buckets of new water but I always lose track so I have no idea how much I change

jaypeecee · « **Reply #12 on:** December 31, 2019, 07:44:32 PM »

Quote from: Sue on December 31, 2019, 07:09:55 PM

On the subject of 75% water changes, it is a few people on another forum who have said this. The odd one or two reckons we should be changing 75% a week, though there is another one who says to do 75% water changes every day when the fish are obviously sick, not every week as routine.

Hi @Sue

OK. I was hoping for a reason or explanation as to why anyone would make these large and frequent water changes. But, thanks anyway.

JPC

Sue · « **Reply #13 on:** December 31, 2019, 07:57:53 PM »

@fishtales I have a chart like that. I downloaded them as they came out every year but the last one was 2011. In that they gave my hardness as 4 dH, but the last time they gave the hardness on their website it had increased to 5.

Sue · « **Reply #14 on:** December 31, 2019, 09:10:42 PM »

My hardness has been increasing tiny bit by tiny bit over a couple of years. But remember, I'm only talking about a 1 dH increase in 9 years, which is so tiny it can be ignored.

Matt · « **Reply #15 on:** January 01, 2020, 01:05:11 AM »

Quote from: fishtales on December 31, 2019, 08:37:56 PM

I would appreciate if someone could give me a quick shopping list of easy plants to put in my tank. Plus a good supplier. Also as I currently seem to have high Nitrates, the best fertilizer to buy to get me started.

My led light isn't the best, but am hopeful it can at least support some of the simplest plants.

I would like to get some ordered asap to hopefully help combat said high Nitrates. At least this is something I can do to feel productive for my fish

Image below shows my recommended plants. For nitrate removal please also make use of floating plants (Amazon Frogbit - Limnobium laevigatum is my favourite) and truly aquatic plants (https://forums.thinkfish.co.uk/aquascaping/truly-aquatic-plants-why-you-don't-need-co2/) such as Elodea or Hornwort which will give rapid growth. More info if you want it on my site at: http://scapeeasy.co.uk/plants.htm

Fertilisation if you don't want to increase nitrates you should use a micros only product that contains phosphorus also, something like JBLs Ferropol which is available in most MAs. I'd link you to the fertilisation page on my site but it's not quite right at the moment. Let me know if you want more product suggestions.

Matt · « **Reply #16 on:** January 01, 2020, 10:13:22 AM »

Thanks, though I really should get round to updating the co2 and ferts pages.... so ask away if they leave you with questions... a 6 month old is preventing me lol!

barneyadi · « **Reply #17 on:** January 01, 2020, 01:27:32 PM »

@Matt What fertilisers should we be using in a low tech tank? Should it be a complete one like the JBL Ferropol you suggest?

Matt · « **Reply #18 on:** January 01, 2020, 02:09:41 PM »

@fishtales I'm hoping to start selling plants quite soon, just excess from my own tanks. Anubias and bolbitis to start. Got to be careful with e.g. crypt melt getting blamed on the seller etc.
I tried to offer the e-aquascaping service but didnt get much interest. Im actually hoping he starts crawling quite soon, the big food belly is holding him back, but chicken and egg he needs to crawl to get rid of it!

@barneyadi Ferropol is definately one I would recommend, though it is not a complete fertiliser. For that you need something like The Aquascaper Complete Liquid plant food or Tropica's Specialised liquid fert. JBL Ferropol is recommended here because it won't increase nitrates whereas the two products I've just mentioned also contain nitrogen and potassium. I'd recommend these products if your nitrates are low (less than say 10 or 15) and/or if your fish stocking density is low. Fish contribute nitrogen and fish food contributes potassium. Does that make sense? For me it's a case of test your water see.

jaypeecee · « **Reply #19 on:** January 01, 2020, 03:27:36 PM »

Quote from: Matt on January 01, 2020, 02:09:41 PM

Fish contribute nitrogen and fish food contributes potassium.

Hi @Matt

I know that many dried fish foods are high in phosphorus. But, I've never seen published or measured figures for potassium. As I currently have an interest in the latter (for other reasons), I'll devise an experiment to measure the potassium content of a flake food.

JPC

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Water Changes - Proportion Changed - Discussion [some Missing Posts In Thread]

Water Changes - Proportion Changed - Discussion [some Missing Posts In Thread]

Author Topic: Water changes - proportion changed - discussion [some missing posts in thread] (Read 6689 times) 47 replies

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