Fishless Cycling Problem

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Offline MarquisMirage

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Re: Fishless cycling problem
« Reply #60 on: February 15, 2017, 06:43:51 PM »
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I wonder if the ammonia is being converted to ammonium?  What's the implication of not enough hydrogen ions in the aquarium?  How would you fix it?  I've looked into the chemistry aspect of it but would need more time to make sense of it.  Is this even a possibility caused by the low kH?

Offline Sue

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Re: Fishless cycling problem
« Reply #61 on: February 15, 2017, 07:07:47 PM »
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You fix a deficiency in hydrogen ions by adding acid  :) I once came across an experienced fishkeeper who said he used muriatic acid to lower pH. I had no idea what that was so I googled it - it's the old name for hydrochloric acid  :yikes: I would prefer to use a weaker acid than that.

Offline MarquisMirage

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Re: Fishless cycling problem
« Reply #62 on: February 15, 2017, 07:13:00 PM »
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Could this be what's stalling the cycle, Sue?

Offline barneyadi

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Re: Fishless cycling problem
« Reply #63 on: February 15, 2017, 07:14:53 PM »
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Looks like I will have to go the fish in route. Thinking of using 4 Harlequin Rasboras in my tank, 105 litres. Does that sound right and any other tip for fish in cycle?

Offline fcmf

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Re: Fishless cycling problem
« Reply #64 on: February 15, 2017, 08:19:25 PM »
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Once I have fish, can I keep using bicarb or is there something else that would help.
I use a piece of limestone/Tufa rock in my tank which increases the KH from ~1 to ~2.5.

any other tip for fish in cycle?
If you do go down that route, then twice-daily water quality monitoring (ammonia, nitrite and nitrates), frequent/daily water changes and Seachem Prime as your dechlorinator (detoxifies ammonia, nitrite and nitrates for 24 hours after its use) would be wise, while it probably wouldn't do any harm to try Tetra Safestart (not any other product which a LFS may claim does the same job). Check out https://forums.thinkfish.co.uk/fishtank-filtration-and-cycling/fish-in-cycling-with-fish-how-to-do-it/

Offline Sue

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Re: Fishless cycling problem
« Reply #65 on: February 15, 2017, 09:05:28 PM »
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I wonder if the ammonia is being converted to ammonium?  What's the implication of not enough hydrogen ions in the aquarium?  How would you fix it?  I've looked into the chemistry aspect of it but would need more time to make sense of it.  Is this even a possibility caused by the low kH?

I have just paid proper attention to this post. Ammonia is converted to ammonium when there are lots of hydrogen ions, ie the pH is lower than 7. The filter bacteria grow best at a pH above 7, ie when there are less hydrogen ions so more ammonia is in the ammonia form rather than ammonium. This is why adding sodium hydrogen carbonate (bicarbonate of soda) works during cycling. It is the salt of a weak acid and a strong base so it makes the water more basic - that is, it increases the pH. And it boosts the KH.

Offline barneyadi

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Re: Fishless cycling problem
« Reply #66 on: February 17, 2017, 09:29:17 PM »
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Ammonia hasn't dropped at all since dosing to 3ppm. So have today emptied tank, rinsed filter sponges and artificial plants and ornaments in dechlorinated water and refilled tank. Will test tank tomorrow and then purchase fish (4 Harlequin Rasboras) and Tetra Start Safe and hopefully that will work. Then add other fish in slowly very slowly.

Offline Littlefish

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Re: Fishless cycling problem
« Reply #67 on: February 17, 2017, 09:33:00 PM »
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Good luck and please keep us posted on progress.

Offline barneyadi

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Re: Fishless cycling problem
« Reply #68 on: February 18, 2017, 02:57:45 PM »
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So checked all parameters this morning, 0 ammonia and nitrite and 2.5ppm nitrate, exactly what is out the tap. So just added my 4 harlequins and a bottle of TSS to help things. So fingers crossed everything runs smoothly.

Offline Littlefish

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Re: Fishless cycling problem
« Reply #69 on: February 18, 2017, 03:06:45 PM »
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I'm keeping my fingers crossed for you and your fish.  :)

Offline barneyadi

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Re: Fishless cycling problem
« Reply #70 on: February 19, 2017, 05:21:40 PM »
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Fish seem to have settled in well. As I am using Tetra Safe Start I shouldn't water change for 14 days as can affect its usage. Don't trust it entirely so will check water tomorrow as feeding fish a small amount tonight.

Offline fcmf

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Re: Fishless cycling problem
« Reply #71 on: February 19, 2017, 07:00:41 PM »
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Glad the fish are settling in well so far. I wasn't aware of the advice not to water change for 14 days until I "googled" and found a post on another forum which includes a reply from Tetra staff and mentions this and not using anything which detoxifies ammonia (Seachem Prime is one such product). When I struggled with a fishless cycle myself (using fish food as the ammonia source and Tetra Safestart), back in the days before joining this forum, I resorted to a fish-in cycle and continued using Tetra Safestart, twice-daily monitoring of water quality (ammonia, nitrite, nitrates, etc), daily water changes using Seachem Prime, etc. I'm almost certain we had a user on this forum last year who did the same, so this is news to me.

I would monitor the water quality morning and evening and let us know how you're getting on, so that we can advise further if need be.

Do you, by any chance, have any mature media from another fishkeeper? That would speed up the cycle considerably.

Best of luck.

Offline barneyadi

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Re: Fishless cycling problem
« Reply #72 on: February 19, 2017, 08:12:23 PM »
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No I don't know anyone with mature media. Supposedly as I only have 4 fish it should keep things low. There was a guy on youtube who cycled his tank in 9 days without water changes, but waited till 14 days to do one and add more fish.
Will check though, don't trust anything at moment. Fed fish tonight, only a little. Strangely 1 is more adventurous than the other 3, but all seem happy.

Offline barneyadi

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Re: Fishless cycling problem
« Reply #73 on: February 20, 2017, 03:35:23 PM »
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Water checked today, .25ppm ammonia, 0 nitrites and 2.5ppm nitrates(same as tap). Did feed yesterday, didn't put a lot in, how often should I feed 4 fish? I think only 1 small bit got to the bottom.

Offline fcmf

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Re: Fishless cycling problem
« Reply #74 on: February 20, 2017, 08:00:02 PM »
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When I got my fish, I recall the LFS staff telling me that 3 full-sized flakes per 6 fish, twice a day, would be best in the beginning. Therefore, in your case, perhaps 2 full-sized flakes, twice a day, would be fine. As their mouths will be small, I'd advise cutting/breaking up each flake into smaller pieces - and this should also help everyone to get some food rather than one greedy fish somehow getting it all.

I only have a small tank of 54 litres and so don’t have much filter media. However, it might help you at least a bit if you had some mature media sent your way to incorporate into your filter, so I could send a little bit through the mail - just "private message" me your address if that would help / you're happy for that and I'll donate some. Perhaps one of the others on here https://forums.thinkfish.co.uk/fishtank-filtration-and-cycling/list-of-members-willing-to-donate-mature-media-for-cycling/ (ie @Sue, @Andy the minion, @Paddyc, @Littlefish), all of whom have larger tanks than I have and therefore more media available, could help out too.

 :fishy1:


Offline Littlefish

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Re: Fishless cycling problem
« Reply #75 on: February 20, 2017, 08:13:21 PM »
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I'm happy to provide mature media.  :)

Offline barneyadi

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Re: Fishless cycling problem
« Reply #76 on: February 20, 2017, 08:27:39 PM »
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Thanks for the offer of media. Will pm you both but have a question. I have a Juwel filter with sponges, where and how would I put the mature media into the filter?

Dave

Offline fcmf

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Re: Fishless cycling problem
« Reply #77 on: February 20, 2017, 08:34:47 PM »
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Great - hopefully we'll get you (or your filter, more precisely!) cycled very quickly this way. :)

You could either remove (cut out) some of the sponge or, preferably, just squeeze in the extra sponge/foam which we send you. I have a few tatty pieces too, so pieces of those could actually be squashed in nicely in various locations alongside your existing sponges, hopefully covering more of your existing sponge's surface area and transferring beneficial bacteria accordingly than if you just pushed in one large chunk of filter media.

Offline Andy The Minion

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Re: Fishless cycling problem
« Reply #78 on: February 20, 2017, 10:05:05 PM »
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If it is foam or floss that you receive, having squeezed the best of the filth into the filter as @fcmf described I would temporally (a couple of weeks) attach it to the filter inlet so the water flow will draw anything left into the filter.
I would also offer media but I had a clean out last weekend and didn't replace it in a place where I can get to it without a fight.... typical.
I will add more next water change so I will have some for next time.

Offline barneyadi

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Re: Fishless cycling problem
« Reply #79 on: February 21, 2017, 08:40:59 PM »
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I brought some Hikari mini pellets today, do you think 8 pellets each feed is enough? I have 4 fish.

 


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