Author Topic: Fishless cycling problem (Read 47895 times) 425 replies

Sue · « **Reply #320 on:** March 28, 2017, 07:35:12 PM »

I would get 5. That will take you to 8, still a reasonable shoal.
However, if you are willing to do as many water changes as may prove necessary, get 7.

barneyadi · « **Reply #321 on:** March 28, 2017, 07:41:06 PM »

Ok, sounds like a plan.

Only other question is should I do other medicine before adding fish, or should I not do last dose?

Sue · « **Reply #322 on:** March 28, 2017, 07:45:42 PM »

Do you mean the whitespot medication? I would add the last dose, then next day do a water change and get more fish.

barneyadi · « **Reply #323 on:** March 28, 2017, 07:51:20 PM »

Ok, it isn't due till Thursday so hopefully bully will leave the others alone.

barneyadi · « **Reply #324 on:** March 29, 2017, 11:24:56 AM »

Hi Sue

Had a thought this morning and checked my kh and gh in both tanks. Main tank is 3kh and 6gh, as normal. However in the qt tank the kh was 2 and gh was 5. pH same in both tanks, 7.6.

Could the drop in kh and gh in the qt tank have caused my deaths yesterday? Might a test with Paraguard to see if it drops the kh and gh be a good idea?. Will be good to know if it causes a drop.

Sue · « **Reply #325 on:** March 29, 2017, 02:44:21 PM »

It is worth checking the paraguard for changes to GH etc.

The drop of only 1 deg hardness shouldn't have caused problems, but you never know.

Perhaps next time you set up the QT, measure the GH and KH as soon as you have filled it, and pH after it has stood for 24 hours, then you'll have a baseline to compare future readings with.
There is always the possibility that your tap water changed between filling the main tank, then filling the QT.

barneyadi · « **Reply #326 on:** March 29, 2017, 05:23:27 PM »

Hi Sue I asked my LFS what water they used and they said the following:

In freshwater tanks we use tap water and aquavitro Alpha as our water conditioner for water changes then it tops itself off with RO water due to evaporation and constantly selling fish..

Is there anything in this comment that might be a problem?

Sue · « **Reply #327 on:** March 29, 2017, 06:34:21 PM »

There is a possible effect.

It is common to use RO water for topping up tanks due to evaporation. This is a good practice because when water evaporates it leaves behind all the minerals etc dissolved in the water and if more tap water is used to top up with that adds more minerals, and over time the minerals in the tank become more and more concentrated. Using RO for topping up after evaporation means that the amount of minerals in the tank stays the same.
But they also use RO to replace water taken out when they sell fish - every fish bag has some tank water in it. In this case, both water and minerals are removed and they top up with water that has no minerals so the effect is that the minerals get more dilute.

One thing you could try is next time you get fish, before you go out, test the GH, KH and pH of the tank water then when you get back test them in the bag of shop water - there is plenty of time while the bag floats to get it to the same temp as the tank. If they are pretty close, that's OK. If they are quite a bit different, add quite small amounts of tank water to the bag every 10 to 15 mins for a couple of hours before netting the fish out.

barneyadi · « **Reply #328 on:** March 29, 2017, 08:33:45 PM »

I have test tube or 10ml, would one or two of those every 20 minutes be a good plan?

Sue · « **Reply #329 on:** March 29, 2017, 09:22:48 PM »

That would be fine.

I use an old cheesecake pot

barneyadi · « **Reply #330 on:** March 30, 2017, 08:16:18 AM »

Hi Sue

Have found someone on another forum who has had similar problems to me. She has posted the following as she had big problems with osmotic shock as her pet store used RO water in part like mine does and she suggested the following.

The easiest is go to a different store that uses only filtered tap water and not RO. Places like Petco uses only filtered water. Granted, not the best option to get fish from, but if you want to finish stocking your tank, that might be an option.

The next best option is work out a deal with your shop. With mine, I got them to agree to order the fish I want, but not to place them in their tank. Just leave them in the bag. I live 3 minutes away from it, and most of my time is getting in and out of the car. So when shipment comes in, and they find my order, they call and I go get them. I also arranged that if I'm going to be late, the day before I fill a 10 gallon I took over with a filter, and get it going with established media from my tank. So if your shop will work with you, that is another option.

If none of those will work for you, you can try doing a 75% RO water to 25% tap, and every few days take out like 15% water and add tap. Slowly acclimate them to the tap. Takes 10 days for a fish to get over osmotic shock, so take it slow for 10 days doing small water changes. Also have Methylene Blue on hand just in case they can't handle the increase.

The last option is just doing straight tap, use Methylene Blue and aquarium salt to try to prevent the shock. It's risky, and can loose fish, but not the entire new stock.

The TDS, and GH is just to different between tap and RO. (TDS is total dissolvable solids)

Does what she make sense to you?

Sue · « **Reply #331 on:** March 30, 2017, 11:05:11 AM »

If it is the water in the shop tank then every other person in your town who buys fish from this shop will have the same problem. Are there ever any other customers there when you go that you could talk to?

Buying the fish as soon as they ariive in the shop will have the problem that any disease won't have time to become apparent. I know that most shops only quarantine new fish for 24 hours, which is just about the same as not quarantining them, but if you buy fish after they've been in the shop at least a week, any problems should be showing signs by then.

I don't see how using aquarium salt will help with osmotic shock. All that will do is stress the fish even more. Salt is an old fashioned remedy because it blocks nitrite from entering the fish's blood and back before anyone knew about ammonia and nitrite, fishkeepers discovered it stopped their fish dying. We now know that the fish died from nitrite poisoning.

I would not use methylene blue in your main tank. It kills filter bacteria. It's main use is as a treatment bath for fish, or when eggs are removed from the tank and allowed to hatch in a filterless container as it stops the eggs growing fungus.

Is there no other shop you could get fish from?

barneyadi · « **Reply #332 on:** March 30, 2017, 11:28:36 AM »

Most of the time at the other are people getting reef tank fish.

Have just been to my pets@home. They only use tap water in their tanks so think i will just get some fish from their, check kh and gh and take things from there. Only slight problem is their range of fish isn't as good as other shop.

Silly question time, in the shop they have tropical, coldwater and some marked temperate. What is meant by temperate?

Sue · « **Reply #333 on:** March 30, 2017, 11:55:51 AM »

Tropical fish are those that need the water around 25 deg C, plus or minus a couple of degrees.
Cold water fish will survive oustside. All the fish that live in streams and lakes in the UK are cold water fish.
Temperate fish need water between those two, the ones sold in shops usually needs temps of 18 to 22 deg C, and include fish like zebra danios and white cloud mountain minnows. Temperate fish only need a heater in the tank if the room they are in ever drops below 18 deg C.

barneyadi · « **Reply #334 on:** March 30, 2017, 12:04:54 PM »

Thanks Sue

Was wondering if i could keep temperate with tropical fish but seems that's a no.

Plan for tomorrow is to do a water change as last day of medicine today. How big a change should I do? Then take some water to my lfs so they can check things and if all ok to get a few fish. Not sure whether to get 3 rasboras and 4 black phantoms, or just stick with rasboras and get the phantoms next.

Is it ok to do small 20% water change, get water back to temperature and add fish later the same day?

barneyadi · « **Reply #335 on:** March 31, 2017, 02:42:00 PM »

Hi Sue need your help. Got fish from shop that uses tap water but concerned in difference to mine. KH from shop is 5, mine is 3 and GH is 16 in shop and mine is 7.

How can i add fish safely.

Sue · « **Reply #336 on:** March 31, 2017, 02:58:45 PM »

You will need to acclimatise them slowly. Use your 5 ml tube and add one tube every 15 mins until there is twice as much water in the bag.

The GH in the shop bag is an awful lot more than yours. What do they do to get it that high?

Or is something done to your water to lower it? Have you looked at your water company's website to check the hardness they give is more or less the same as your results? Make sure you take note of the unit as well as the number. Some UK companies give hardness as mg/l Ca, some as mg/l CaO and some as mg/l CaCO3.

barneyadi · « **Reply #337 on:** March 31, 2017, 03:13:54 PM »

Will take a look at water company website. They just use tap water, that's what they tell me.checked the pH and was same as mine.

Will this difference be the probable cause of my fish loss?

barneyadi · « **Reply #338 on:** March 31, 2017, 03:34:44 PM »

Ok, checked water company and although they are only 5 minutes drive away and in same town they have very different water, their mg/l cac03 is 167.01 where mine is 74.90.

So between a rock and hard place, one stone using RO water and the other with very different water.

barneyadi · « **Reply #339 on:** March 31, 2017, 04:26:09 PM »

Been adding water for 90 minutes and gh hasn't changed

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