Author Topic: FISHLESS CYCLING Discussion Thread (Read 13569 times) 83 replies

Natasha · « **on:** January 09, 2014, 03:10:05 PM »

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This thread is a discussion thread of the following fishless cycling method please feel free to read it, before contributing or asking in this discussion. Thanks!

Summary of using this new method of fishless cycling using 3ppm ammonia, for my Rio 180 tank

Day 1. Set up tank, turn tank lights off, let the water heat up to 28^oC.

Day 2. Add 3ppm of ammonia. I used the Jeyes Kleen Off Ammonia which is supposed to be 9.5%, so I needed to add 0.3ml for every 10 litres in my tank which would equate to 5.4ml. However I took Sue’s advice and added less than that, as I know there is not 180 litres of water in my tank and am unsure of the real strength of the bottle of ammonia.
I added 2.25ml ammonia solution at first and let it mix in the tank for 30mins before testing, the water showed 1ppm of ammonia at this point. I added another 2.25ml ammonia solution and let it mix for 30mins before testing, the water showed about 2ppm ammonia at this point. I added 2ml more ammonia solution and left 30mins before testing, the water showed 3ppm at this point. From this I know that the full dose of ammonia solution for my tank is 6.5ml and therefore the maintenance dose is 2.17ml as it is one third of the full dose.

Day 3. Nothing today.

Day 4. Nothing today.

Day 5. Tested the tank water today, ammonia was 0.25ppm (under 0.75ppm) and nitrite was 3ppm (over 2ppm) so I could add my full dose of ammonia solution.

Day 6. Nothing today.

Day 7. Tested the water today, ammonia was 0ppm.

Day 8. Nothing today.

Day 9. Tested the water today, ammonia was 0ppm. As I had two consecutive readings of 0ppm for ammonia I then added the maintenance dose of ammonia solution.

Day 10. Tests today, ammonia was 0ppm (under 0.25ppm) and nitrite was 0.25ppm (under 1ppm) so the cycle is not finished but they are under the values at which I need to add more ammonia solution. Therefore I have added a full dose of ammonia solution.

Day 11. Tests today, ammonia was 0ppm and nitrite was 5ppm so the cycle has not finished and I have not added any more ammonia solution.

Day 12. Tests today, ammonia was 0ppm and nitrite was 0ppm. However, this does not mean that my cycle has finished as it is more than 24hours since I added any ammonia solution, so I have added a full dose of the ammonia solution.

Day 13. Tests today, ammonia was 0ppm and nitrite was 5ppm so the cycle has not finished and I have not added any more ammonia solution.

Day 14. Tests today, ammonia was 0ppm and nitrite was 0ppm. The cycle has not finished as it is over 24hrs since I added any ammonia solution, so I have added a full dose of the ammonia solution.

Day 15. Tests today, ammonia was 0ppm and nitrite was 5ppm. The cycle has not finished and I have not added any more ammonia solution.

Day 16. Tests today, ammonia was 0ppm and nitrite was 0ppm. The cycle has not finished as it is over 24hrs since I added any ammonia solution, so I have added a full dose of the ammonia solution.

Day 17. Tests today, ammonia was 0ppm and nitrite was 5ppm. The cycle has not finished and I have not added any more ammonia solution.

Day 18. Tests today, ammonia was 0ppm and nitrite was 0ppm. The cycle has not finished as it is over 24hrs since I added any ammonia solution, so I have added a full dose of the ammonia solution.

Day 19. Tests today, ammonia was 0ppm and nitrite was 5ppm. The cycle has not finished and I have not added any more ammonia solution.

Day 20. Unable to test today.

Day 21. Tests today, ammonia was 0ppm and nitrite was 0ppm. The cycle has not finished as it is over 24hrs since I added any ammonia solution, so I have added a full dose of the ammonia solution.

Day 22. Tests today, ammonia was 0ppm and nitrite was 5ppm. The cycle has not finished and I have not added any more ammonia solution.

Day 23. Tests today, ammonia was 0ppm and nitrite was 0ppm. The cycle has not finished as it is over 24hrs since I added any ammonia solution, so I have added a full dose of the ammonia solution.

Day 24. Tests today, ammonia was 0ppm and nitrite was 5ppm. The cycle has not finished and I have not added any more ammonia solution.

Day 25. Tests today, ammonia was 0ppm and nitrite was 0ppm. The cycle has not finished as it is over 24hrs since I added any ammonia solution, so I have added a full dose of the ammonia solution.

Day 26. Unable to test today.

Day 27. Unable to test today.

Day 28. Tests today, ammonia was 0ppm and nitrite was 0ppm. The cycle has not finished as it is over 24hrs since I added any ammonia solution, so I have added a full dose of the ammonia solution.

Day 29. Tests today, ammonia was 0ppm and nitrite was 5ppm. The cycle has not finished and I have not added any more ammonia solution.

Day 30. Tests today, ammonia was 0ppm and nitrite was 0ppm. The cycle has not finished as it is over 24hrs since I added any ammonia solution, so I have added a full dose of the ammonia solution.

Day 31. Unable to test today.

Day 32. Tests today, ammonia was 0ppm and nitrite was 0ppm. The cycle has not finished as it is over 24hrs since I added any ammonia solution, so I have added a full dose of the ammonia solution.

Day 33. Tests today, ammonia was 0ppm and nitrite was 5ppm. The cycle has not finished and I have not added any more ammonia solution. Today I also tested nitrate which was 80ppm.

Day 34. Tests today, ammonia was 0ppm and nitrite was 0ppm. I also tested pH which was 7.4 so perfectly within normal values. The cycle has not finished as it is over 24hrs since I added any ammonia solution. Today I added the maintenance dose of ammonia solution (1ppm) so that I can see how much nitrite is present after 24hrs when I add only 1ppm of ammonia.

Day 35. Tests today, ammonia was 0ppm and nitrite was 0ppm. The cycle has not finished as I only added 1ppm ammonia solution. Today I added 2ppm of ammonia as both the ammonia and nitrite tests showed that levels had dropped to 0ppm within 24hrs when I only added 1ppm.

Day 36. Tests today, ammonia was 0ppm and nitrite was 1ppm. The cycle has not finished and I have not added any more ammonia solution.

Day 37. Tests today, ammonia was 0ppm and nitrite was 0ppm. The cycle has not finished as it is over 24hrs since I added any ammonia solution, I have added 2ppm of ammonia solution tonight.

Day 38. Unable to test today.

Day 39. Tests today, ammonia was 0ppm and nitrite was 0ppm. The cycle has not finished as it is over 24hrs since I added any ammonia solution, I have added 2ppm of ammonia tonight.

Day 40. Tests today, ammonia was 0ppm and nitrite was 0.5ppm. The cycle has not finished as both readings are not at zero, I have added 2ppm of ammonia solution tonight.

Day 41. Tests today, ammonia was 0ppm and nitrite was 0.25ppm. The cycle has not finished as both readings are not at zero, I have added 2ppm of ammonia solution tonight.

Day 42. Tests today, ammonia was 0ppm and nitrite was 0ppm. The cycle has not finished as I have only been adding 2ppm ammonia solution, I have added 3ppm of ammonia tonight.

Day 43. Tests today, ammonia was 0ppm and nitrite was 0ppm. YAY THE CYCLE IS FINISHED!!

engineer_tom · « **Reply #1 on:** January 21, 2014, 01:12:58 PM »

Just thought I would check that this is still the most up to date method before I start cycling my 100L tank.

Sue · « **Reply #2 on:** January 21, 2014, 03:21:58 PM »

This is a recently devised method by someone on another forum - I pinched his idea

The problem with the older method (which involved adding up to 5ppm ammonia, waiting till it dropped, then re-dosing every time the ammonia level dropped to zero ) is that the nitrite level got too high and stalled the cycle. And our test kits don't measure high enough to know when this too-high level of nitrite had been reached. Research has shown that the ammonia eaters don't need to be fed every day and that 5ppm is more ammonia than is needed, 3ppm being more than enough for a tank full of fish.
This method was devised as a way of keeping the nitrite levels below that critical level, and takes advantage of not needing to dose every time the ammonia level drops to zero. It is said to be faster than the old method as nitrite does not get high enough to stall the cycle.

I have to admit that I haven't used this method myself. Last time I did a fishless cycle, about 9 months ago, this method hadn't been worked out. I used a modified version of the old method, dosing 1ppm ammonia initially, then again every time the ammonia reading dropped to zero. Once both ammonia and nitrite were dropping to zero in 24 hours, I increased the dose. This also kept the nitrite level under the critical amount while the nitrite eaters grew.
But if I'd known about this method then, I would have used it.

Tommo · « **Reply #3 on:** March 30, 2014, 10:52:42 AM »

Hello all, I am new to fish keeping and have recently set up a tank. I am doing a fishless cycle prior to adding fish. One question regarding this new fishless cycle, when it says ON THE THIRD DAY AFTER ADDING AMMONIA, TEST FOR AMMONI AND NITRITES. Does this mean add you initial dose again and then test or just test the water. Same question for day six and so on?

Many thanks

Sue · « **Reply #4 on:** March 30, 2014, 12:51:17 PM »

Sorry for not being clear.

At the beginning, it is a watch and wait game. After the start dose of ammonia you don't add any more until you get results showing ammonia under 0.75 and nitrite over 2.0. The testing every three days is so that you catch the drop when it happens. It could take several tests before you see these readings. I did a fishless cycle last year using the old method, but it starts off the same, and it took 13 days for the ammonia level to drop.

One thing that fishless cycling teaches us is patience

Tommo · « **Reply #5 on:** March 31, 2014, 01:55:58 PM »

Thanks for the reply Sue, that has cleared it up. Probably would help if I wasn't reading the article tired as reading down it is explained better. I will have to wait a little longer for test results to start as I dosed 4 ml into my 165 lt tank prior to posting. Even though I can't wait to get fish in the tank I am enjoying the set up and fishless cycling and would rather have them in a stable tank. After waiting for a while to get the tank another month or two without fish is no hardship. Thanks again for advice, the whole topic/post is very helpful.

Justin

Fiona · « **Reply #6 on:** June 27, 2014, 10:23:45 PM »

Call me Ms Cautious but I really didnt want to mess this up and this has taken me about 2 months due to replanting ect. I believe my tank is now full cycled but would just like some final advice Sue if you don't mind.

I still have the original filter pad in although I have rinsed it in aquarium water and I've followed the cycling steps although I've missed testing some days. Condensation was a real problem (have C-hood now)so I had to make frequent top ups of treated water .25 litres a day

Chemical readings for the last few days are as follows..

21st: Amon 0, Nitrite .25 full dose 1.5 ammon added
22nd:Amon .5, Nitrite 5 full dose 1.5 ammon added
24th: Amon 0, Nitrite 0 Nitrate 0 added maint dose .5 ammon
25th: Amon 0, Nitrite 0 added maint dose .5 Ammon
26th: Amon 0, Nitrite 0 added maint dose .5 Ammon
27th: Amon 0, Nitrite 0, Nitrate 0 added full dose 1 .5 Ammon

Tomorrow morning I'm going to test again for ammon, nitrite and nitrates and I'm going to visit an aquarium specialist to see if they have any of the fish I've researched as suitable. I'm quite excited about this bit

I wont be bringing any fish home yet though.

My tank is now fully planted and all the plants are established and growing well and I think this may be why the nitrate levels are so low.

Should I change my filter pad tomorrow and wait to see test results, its been in situ since I started the aquarium? I want to make sure my fish have a ready home before I start stocking.

Thanks in advance for the advice.

Sue · « **Reply #7 on:** June 28, 2014, 10:34:15 AM »

If you change anything in the filter, you'll throw away all the bacteria in it that you have just spent 2 months growing. Why do you need to change the pad?
Is the pad the only thing in the filter or is there a lot of other media in there as well? If it only a small part of the media, you could change the pad and only lose a few bacteria but if it's the only thing, or a large proportion of the media you'll lose a lot of bacteria which will put you into a mini-cycle.

If you want to change the pad because the instructions say to, ignore them. They only say that to make you spend money.
The only media that does need changing is carbon, and then only if you need it to remove something like medication or tannins from wood as it gets full. Otherwise don't bother changing even carbon (although not using carbon at all is a better option)

Your results do suggest you are cycled, and if you have a lot of plants they will keep the nitrate low. They also use ammonia as food and in a very heavily planted tank (think underwater jungle) you can even get away without a filter. But most of us are not that heavily planted and do need a filter as well as the plants.

If it'll be a while before getting fish, add the maintenance dose of ammonia every 3 days till you get them. I know you don't have any nitrate, but I'd still do a water change the day before, or earlier the same day you do buy fish.

And be wary of the shop till you know you can trust them. You have researched the fish you want so you'll know if they start talking rubbish

Fiona · « **Reply #8 on:** June 29, 2014, 02:59:12 PM »

I've got a Marina i110 filter, it has 2 filter parts, 1 is called a bioscreen which is plastic with lots of holes in it for greater surface area for bacteria to grow on and is permanent, the other is called a power cartridge and that's the bit that you'er advised to change every 4 weeks or if water flow through the filter reduces noticably and that's the part I was going to change.

Sue · « **Reply #9 on:** June 29, 2014, 04:11:39 PM »

According to Hagen's website,

Quote

The outside of the power cartridge features polyester foam to trap fine particles; while the inside chambers contain carbon to remove pollutants and odors; and zeolite to eliminate toxic ammonia for a cleaner, healthier aquarium environment and crystal clear water.

I don't like these cartridges. They mostly contain carbon, but this one also contains zeolite, and it's main funtion is to remove ammonia. Some of the ammonia you have been adding will have been absorbed by the zeolite, but it will probably be saturated by now so it will not be absorbing ammonia at the moment. If you replace the cartridge, you will add new zeolite which will remove ammonia until that too is full. But by then you'll have fish, and when the zeolite gets full it will stop absorbing ammonia but there won't be quite enough bacteria to remove what the zeolite no longer absorbs. Yes, it will only take a short time for them to mulitiply, but then you change the cartridge again, the new zeolite removes ammonia, the numbers of bacteria decrease because there is less ammonia for them, and when the zeolite gets full there won't be enough bacteria.......and so on and on. You would be tied into replacing the cartridges before the zeolite got full for ever, or risk exposing the fish to repeated mini-cycles.

The simplest thing to do is cut open the cartridge, empty the carbon and zeolite and fill the polyester bag with filter sponge. Then you would only need to wash it when it got dirty. And no zeolite to cause problems. And no carbon either, but you don't really need that anyway. I haven't used carbon on a routine basis in any of my tanks for years.

If you do decide on this, do it before you get fish. There will be some bacteria on the carbon and zeolite, and you need to make sure you have enough bacteria after removing the carbon and zeolite before getting fish.

Fiona · « **Reply #10 on:** June 29, 2014, 04:50:08 PM »

Oh blast I see what you mean now... I've just had a look at the new cartridges and the polyester foam is very thin and flimsey and is held in place by the plastic framework of the cartridge itself. I could have a try at doing what you suggested, the replacement cartridges arent that expensive so if it goes wrong it's not a problem. What sort of filter foam would you suggest Sue?

Sue · « **Reply #11 on:** June 29, 2014, 05:00:42 PM »

If the cartridge is flimsy you could try using just sponge. The only downside is that the polyester is probably better at catching very fine bits that sponge is. That's why the water flow through the cartridge slows down- it gets full of muck.
Any brand filter sponge would do, but obviously one that was only a bit bigger than you'd need so as not to waste much when you cut it down. It is safer sticking to something made for filters, any make, as sponges come in two types: those that soak up water and those that let water run through. You need the second type, and getting a sponge designed for filter use means it will be the right type. See what your local shop stocks. A fine sponge would be better for catching fine bits than a coarse sponge.

Fiona · « **Reply #12 on:** July 02, 2014, 12:54:04 AM »

OK the update is... I've cut the filter pad sections open along the join, emptied them out and used fishing line to close them up again, I've wet the adapted filter in aquarium water and squeezed water from the old filter pad all over it and then inserted the ammended filter bck into the filter casing. I've added a full dose of ammonia and I'll test again tomorrow night, both readings tonight before my 'fiddling' were 0/0 ammon/nitrite

Lets see what happens tomorrow

ps: this kills my filter warrenty btw but it'll be an interesting experiment and as we have no fish atm its a good time to test it

Sue · « **Reply #13 on:** July 02, 2014, 10:47:58 AM »

That sounds like a good plan.

Fiona · « **Reply #14 on:** July 02, 2014, 05:51:22 PM »

Thinking on what you've said I actually went one step further. I cut the old filter material from the old cartridge and inserted it in the space left when I removed the zeolite so hopefully I wont have lost too much bacteria

Wulfy · « **Reply #15 on:** July 27, 2014, 10:36:12 AM »

Hi I am on day 7 of the cycle, day 1 I dosed ammonia to 3ppm. Day 4 I tested and ammonia and nitrites were both zero Day 7, today, just tested and ammonia and nitrites are still zero?

Should I be adding more ammonia? I am using a combination of old and new filter material.

Thanks
Helen

Sue · « **Reply #16 on:** July 27, 2014, 12:40:04 PM »

It looks like the old media is really helping.

Add a 3ppm dose of ammonia and test after 24 hours.
If both are zero, add another 3ppm dose and test after another 24 hours. If both are still zero, get fish.
If one or both are above zero, go to step #10 and follow from there until you do have double zeros 24 hours after adding a dose of ammonia.

Aquamaid · « **Reply #17 on:** September 08, 2014, 02:14:05 PM »

Hi Sue, forgive my ignorance and if this has been asked here already, my rush at not reading properly. You state the initial ammonia dose for new tank as approx 0.2 ml, i have a 10 ml syringe, marked with 5 lines for each 2 4 6 8 10ml is it therefore not the 2 ml mark (which seems reasonable) but a lesser ammount, which seem very tiny?

Aquamaid · « **Reply #18 on:** September 08, 2014, 02:30:53 PM »

Ooops! just engaged brain, and realised it is 0.2 ml PER LTR ,so as i have approx 80 ltrs, 2 ml per ltr would be too much, still not sure of quanitity though, will have to google later i think. Sorry for misunderstanding

Sue · « **Reply #19 on:** September 08, 2014, 05:18:10 PM »

80 litres of water would need 2.5ml of 9.5% ammonia for the 3ppm dose. For the 1ppm dose you'd need 0.8ml.

That's assuming you have 80 litres of water. Some manufacturers quote the thickness of glass in their volume so the amount of water that will fit in the tank is less than the stated volume; and even if the tank holds 80 litres water when empty, you'll displace some of that water when you put in substrate, filter, decor etc. Reckon to lose 10% for a lightly decorated tank or 15% for a tank with lots of stuff in it.

And make sure the ammonia solution is 9.5% as some makes differ. I know that Jeyes KleenOff ammonia is 9.5% even though it doesn't say on the bottle - I emailed them to ask when I bought some.

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FISHLESS CYCLING Discussion Thread

FISHLESS CYCLING Discussion Thread

Author Topic: FISHLESS CYCLING Discussion Thread (Read 13569 times) 83 replies

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