Filter Tinkering - Musings

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Offline fcmf

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Filter tinkering - musings
« on: October 10, 2019, 03:08:53 PM »
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A couple of my harlequins have, over time, developed slightly S-shaped spines when viewed from above - from recollection, the harlequin that got increasingly skinnier before dying also had this. Another's spine has distorted slightly in shape too - it's as though the back half from the end of the dorsal fin, along the caudal peduncle and the tail are drooping. The other remaining harlie, who is a lot smaller, looks the picture of perfect health - although her small counterpart also did and suffered an unexpected and fatal demise overnight one night earlier this year. After briefly wondering if the distorted-spine harlies had TB, then putting it down to a defect as they were getting older (now nearly 4.5), I've begun to think it is almost certainly accounted for by the filter and where the fish position themselves vis-a-vis the filter outflow - the neon green rasboras like swimming into the current and getting buffeted around, while the harlequins generally avoid it for most of the time but sometimes have a play in it, while the x-ray tetras generally avoid it as they're usually too interested in sparring while the other explores the bottom of the tank.

Since the seemingly healthiest and most robust neon green rasbora died last month, plus the weakest one a few days later, one of the remaining ones has taken prime position in the filter outflow and spends most of his day there swimming into / playing in the filter outflow, shooing away his one remaining shoal-mate who attempts to join him. This remaining shoal-mate positions herself to get what must be the ripple effects later on as the water curves round the tank - she's almost permanently on her side, riding the current at an angle, but is perfectly able to swim upright during tank water changes when the filter is off.

The filter is a corner filter and the filter outflow comes out straight and thus diagonally to the opposite corner of the tank (although direction can be altered and flow adjusted from 150-420 l/ph - I have it at the lowest setting). The flow doesn't actually look that strong at all but perhaps it is too much for my 54-litre. [Incidentally, I have an old Fluval U2 - its flow is up to 400 l/ph, while the QT's Eheim Pick-Up 45 is 50-180 l/ph while the next size up of that would be 150-300 l/ph.]

Mulling over this, plus the fact that the cardinals will have completed their 4-week quarantine tomorrow, I'm wondering how this will alter dynamics and who will position themselves where in the tank... and whether the cardinals will adjust to the increase in current. I put the Fluval U2 in a QT 4 years ago for the remainder of my shoal of cories who were unwell at the time and witnessed with horror their catastrophic demise even with the gentlest spray-bar setting on, so I think the role of filter outflow in fish welfare tends to get under-estimated. While the current stock seem to be fine with it, I'm concerned about its role in the harlies' spine shapes, possibly the increasingly curved/hunch back in the neon green that's now in prime spot in the filter outflow plus the side-swimming of the other neon green albeit she seems to enjoy this and purposefully chooses this over positioning herself in a quieter spot.

With all this in mind, plus a larger tank being out of the question (a larger tank for the filter to be better proportioned is a more logical solution than purchasing yet another filter), I'm currently experimenting with the spray bar.  Unlike, the wide-jet narrow-opening nozzle that can be fitted to the filter outflow, the spraybar doesn't click neatly into the hole and it's possible to pull it out so easily that I fear it might dislodge of its own accord. It also lies in rather than above the water so is a bit of an obstruction for inhabitants, and its position can't be adjusted too much - water can only come out in front of it and so one side of the tank gets a flow which is dispersed. However, the fish seem to be faring ok with it - with the exception of one of two harlies, they're all choosing to congregate in front of it.

Sorry for my rambling musings. Comments/thoughts welcome from those who actually make it to the end of my post.  :D

Offline Matt

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Re: Filter tinkering - musings
« Reply #1 on: October 11, 2019, 04:00:15 AM »
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@fcmf

I made it to the end! Some thoughts...

You know your individual fish so much better than me, and I suspect many others here too. The age of your harlies is a major consideration.  With age comes susceptibility to all sorts of things, in the wild this can often mean that animals meet an earlier demise than in the more controlled home aquarium environment. The s shape of the spine is generally thought of the be a genetics problem, I'm not sure that flow would have much of an impact on spine shape? Age might.  From some brief research; Harlequins are from naturally very slow flowing (if at all)  environments. Neon green rasbora in contrast like a bit of flow, though I also read that they need more oxygen than most. I wonder if this is a factor here too?...

You mention the co2 side of things... I can probably be a little more 'scientific' in response here... and make a big loop back to my oxygen question... no idea if I'm on the right tracks with this re the more fish related part of your query (others are better placed to validate this bit) but it is hopefully useful nevertheless for the plant side of things.

Firstly whatever you do, your are growing a plant in a co2 poor environment. This is why in 'low energy ie non co2 injected environments, plants grow slowly (note I didn't say unhealthily). Those who inject co2 often complete a pH profile to understand if they have injected enough and how it's being used over the course of the day. They are looking for a 1 pH drop before lights on and it to stay that way until lights off.  You are not going to see anything like this level of co2 in your aquarium.

There will be two sources of co2 in your tank fish/bacteria respiration (also reduces oxygen), and atmospheric. Diana Walstad recommends low flow and a siesta lighting schedule (which I also discuss on my site but am looking to remove it shortly due to reasons below) this is to preserve any co2 in the tank and allow it to build up in the siesta.  Diana's tanks are all dirted tanks and the high amount of bacteria respiration in the substrate creates co2.  This theory is now getting applied incorrectly by many (myself included) to non-dirted tanks such as yours and mine. In these situations we want to maximise on the biggest source of co2 available to us. This is neither fish or bacteria respiration it is the atmosphere itself.
Aquarium plant growers know this better than us mere hobbyists and co2 enrich their greenhouses and grow plants in shallow tanks so the co2 can reach the plants.

Co2 dissolves quite readily in water to a low concentration but also gases off quite readily beyond this low value of about 15 times less than atmospheric level (unless the atmosphere is co2 enriched as above). Flow, if it creates a ripple on the surface, increases the surface area for co2 to be passed one way or the other from tank to atmosphere or from atmosphere to tank. This is how airstones work, they don't add much oxygen through dissolving the bubbles themselves, they increase the surface area of the water to atmosphere and this is what does the job.   

So whatever your filter is supposed to do to co2 levels with whichever spray bar... id ignore the manufacturers advise here unless they specify whether they are applying it to a low or high energy (co2 enriched) aquarium. Given the knowledge above you can see that the best option for you is to maintain high surface agitation. This will increase atmospheric to tank co2 transfer, the biggest and best source of co2 for you, helping maintain a steady level of co2 in your tank.  This is also the aim in high tech aquariums, a steady co2 level during the lighrting period.  High tech aquascapers also maintain high flow levels with lots of surface agitation to maintain higher oxygen levels too to support fish health in this co2 laiden environment. So surface agitation in low tech acts to increase co2 and oxygen levels (ref earlier query about the neon green rasboras) so win win for you and I!

Don't forget also that floating plants have access to atmospheric co2. As such they don't deplete it from the waters column. They will get nutrients from the water and suck they a faster than your sword plant as they can access better co2 levels.  They are therefore are a useful indicator of poor nutrient levels in your tank which affect leaf health on your floaters first as they grow faster. If you notice any deficiencies here you know you need to start dosing ferts.  Conversely they don't like having their leaves wet so ensure that whatever you do with your filter flow and surface agitation doesn't impact them in this way.

So now to loop back to oxygen... not sure on your current filter setup 're flow and surface agitation, but... it's probably not making a huge difference to the plants (co2) unless extreme (slashing the floaters or over say 15x tank volume turnover per hour and tearing up the plants). You do have a lot of oxygen users in the tank (fishes) so its probably more important to do what you can to promise good oxygenation of the water over and above anything plant related.

Oh dear I seem to have added my own ramblings... I'll stop now... did that help at all? It's made be realise how much I need to update my site!...

Offline fcmf

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Re: Filter tinkering - musings
« Reply #2 on: October 14, 2019, 08:16:21 PM »
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Sorry for such a belated reply/update but thanks so much for your detailed response, @Matt - very much appreciated and indeed very helpful.

I've since been having further tinkers with the tank and went back to the original filter outflow pipe. The spray bar seemed to segregate one or two harlies from the rest of the tankmates and they sat facing the walls which meant I couldn't see them at all, as well as the other downsides I mentioned. Then, when I replaced the original filter outflow pipe, somehow I managed to alter the flow in such a way that it seems better for all concerned i.e. possibly creating more surface movement and less sub-surface movement. I also realise that I must have been overly worrying / paying credence to its role in the slight S shape of the harlies' spines which actually would scarcely be noticeable to anyone else - Mr FCMF hadn't noticed it until I pointed it out from above and even then he didn't notice it straight away. What is particularly interesting is that the cardinal tetras, on entry to the tank today, have been spending most of their time in/around that area of concern and aren't getting buffeted at all, so I was worrying completely unncessarily about how they would fare - it's as though the neon green rasboras are choosing to position themselves at such an angle in order to enjoy getting buffeted.

As for the floating plants, I actually keep them in fish feeding rings like these https://www.ebay.co.uk/i/193112867241 in order to stop them zooming round the tank and ending up in the filter inlets. This probably isn't the best for them long-term but at least it means their leaves don't get too wet.


Separately, over the past week or so (i.e. during the 4th/final week of quarantine), I'd been gradually transferring some tank contents from the main tank to the quarantine tank, and swapping water between each tank to get occupants used to one another's chemicals (e.g. pheromones, etc). I'm not / wasn't sure how much logic there is/was in this, but, given at least one fatality within 24 hours of transfer from QT to main tank among the neon green rasboras last year, I wanted to minimise stress for both parties and maximise smoothness of transition by maintaining similar environments. What was particularly interesting was the behaviour of the main tank occupants on the two occasions when I put a jugful of tank water from the QT into the main tank - the two neon green rasboras seemingly inexplicably started behaving most oddly and separately from one another... one sunk into a silk plant and kept flailing itself, while the other alternated between darting around and shuddering behind a plant. Meanwhile, the harlies huddled up together, while the x-rays continued their usual behaviour. It was almost as though they sensed the presence of additional/new fish but couldn't handle being unable to find them. There was no particular odd behaviour in the the QT although I had put some of the main tank water in it from the outset.

Today, the transition went more smoothly than expected - a first for me! I managed to transfer the filter media from the QT filter into the main tank filter, then, with the filter and decor removed, seamlessly guided all 6 cardinals into a jug and covered it with a towel, talking reassuringly to the fish as I could. I kept the filter off in the main tank so that the new occupants could be gradually emptied in without getting buffeted by the filter outflow. They entered together, shoaled up at one end of the tank (about 1/3 of the distance from the bottom) but not too tightly, while the others were in the diagonally opposite side (about 1/3 of the distance from the top) - it was almost as though a sports match were about to start. After about 15 seconds, there was a mix as they all intermingled, then they resumed their normal positions - harlies near the top RHS, neon green rasboras swapping between filter outflow and intermingling with the x-rays (this started very recently following the demise of two of the remaining four harlies), and two of the three x-rays having spats with one another. All 6 cardinals have been loosely shoaling at the front of the tank, also in the filter outflow but not being buffeted by it at all, and occasionally a couple of them separate to investigate elsewhere on their own. Feeding went well, so my concerns about two of the six cardinals being quite small are unfounded as they seem to be keen to pick up fallen pellets. To my complete surprise, they have been completely unfazed by the tank light from the outset - I'd meant to turn this off but completely forgot - despite only having a dimly lit table lamp near the QT. Fingers crossed that this good start continues!

Edited to add: By the time I finished this post, the cardinals had dispersed and everyone was intermingling. To my surprise, especially as the cardinals shoaled up together at night in the QT, everyone seems to have dispersed. Only the two snails are cutely cuddled up together in the top LHS of the tank which has become their new favoured sleeping location.

Edited again to add video: https:///youtu.be/gw3OFb1qIhI [remove 3rd / from near start of url to initiate it]

Offline Littlefish

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Re: Filter tinkering - musings
« Reply #3 on: October 19, 2019, 07:58:24 AM »
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Great clip. Everyone seems to be pottering around the tank quite happily. Well done.  :cheers:

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