Sand Substrate Improvement?

Author Topic: Sand substrate improvement?  (Read 3105 times) 16 replies

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline sharpandroid

  • Super Subscriber!
  • Fishy Member
  • *
  • Posts: 18
  • Likes: 0
  • Tropical Fish Keeper
Sand substrate improvement?
« on: August 31, 2019, 11:06:02 PM »
  • Likes On This Users Post 0
When I started out with my Aquarium I obviously knew very little about how I would change in my expectations of it, I now find I woud like to grow some healthy plants.
Although I have always had plants but success has been only with the easy to grow varieties to the pont of having the tank over run with Hygrophilia more than once.

Is there a way to place better plant growing substrate under the sand, or could I use the tablets?

I can't use co2 because of the Shrimps I have.   

A Selection of Fish in my Fish Community Creator Tanks
Panda Cory (4) - Slender Harlequin (9) - Cardinal Tetra (9) - Japonica Shrimp (5) -
Note: The user may not necessarily own these fish, these are tanks that they may be building or researching for stocking purposes


Offline Littlefish

  • Global Moderator Subscriber
  • Superstar Think Fishy Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4076
  • Likes: 330
  • aka Donna
Re: Sand substrate improvement?
« Reply #1 on: September 01, 2019, 07:15:52 AM »
  • Likes On This Users Post 0
I use root tabs and liquid fertiliser. I use JBL root tabs, or whatever are on sale at the shop at any given time, and TNC lite (nitrate levels in my tap water are very high).
My tanks tend to be low maintenance, and I don't use CO2 either.
There's lots of useful information on Matt's site http://scapeeasy.co.uk/ and I'm sure he'll be able to give you some advice on your planting.  :)

Offline Sue

  • Global Moderator Subscriber
  • Superstar Think Fishy Member
  • *
  • Posts: 9866
  • Likes: 403
Re: Sand substrate improvement?
« Reply #2 on: September 01, 2019, 10:00:43 AM »
  • Likes On This Users Post 0
Some roots tabs are notorious for polluting the water while other brands do not do this. Research before buying - Littlefish has given you the name of one good brand.

Offline Matt

  • @scapeeasy on Instagram
  • Global Moderator
  • Superstar Think Fishy Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2775
  • Likes: 302
  • www.scapeeasy.co.uk
Re: Sand substrate improvement?
« Reply #3 on: September 01, 2019, 02:32:26 PM »
  • Likes On This Users Post 0
Root tabs should just need to be placed deep enough to stop them polluting the water... I don't have direct experience with lots of different brands. I bought in bulk so didn't get the opportunity to test out loads of types. Tropica's are very good though expensive. It also used tetra initial sticks which are more reasonable but are more of a long term gentle boost than the plant steroids other brands can be.

I don't recommend liquid co2. It is a very harmful substance used to sterilize surgical instruments. It has not place in a tank, in the long term (i do actually use it during water changes as these add co2 and by using this product then and only then, it prevents algae from taking hold during this time of rapid chanhe in the tank) It is also very ineffective at enhancing plant growth (ive seen 10 times less effective then pressurised co2 mentioned before) and there is a lot of research now to day it does more harm than good. See: https://www.jbl.de/en/blog/detail/123/the-story-of-liquid-co2-fertilisation if interested.

You have clearly had good plant growth in the past, what if anything was different then vs now?

Finally liquid fertilisation. What are your nitrate levels? There are two main types of fertiliser to be concerned with (though there are many more types, I would consider these more specialist). "Micros only" (ensure if you get one if these that is also contains phosphorus), and "complete". Complete also contains nitrogen and potassium. Heavier stocked tanks dont need nitrogen and potassium adding because the stocking itself provides enough.  Most people dont have a potassium tester but we can use nitrates as an indicater.

Consider the plants you want to grow... are they root feeders or water column feeders. If they have extensive root systems they feed more heavily from their roots, of less roots like the hygrophila you mentioned... these are more for anchorage than heavy root feeding.

Lots to go off there... hope I've helped and not confused!

Offline sharpandroid

  • Super Subscriber!
  • Fishy Member
  • *
  • Posts: 18
  • Likes: 0
  • Tropical Fish Keeper
Re: Sand substrate improvement?
« Reply #4 on: September 01, 2019, 09:02:54 PM »
  • Likes On This Users Post 0
I haven't tested my water chemistry myself ever, I did take a couple of samples down to the Aquatic shop and they said things were ok.
I suppose the learning curve will lead me to testing myself, something more than just doing a 10% water change every week.

A Selection of Fish in my Fish Community Creator Tanks
Panda Cory (4) - Slender Harlequin (9) - Cardinal Tetra (9) - Japonica Shrimp (5) -
Note: The user may not necessarily own these fish, these are tanks that they may be building or researching for stocking purposes


Offline Matt

  • @scapeeasy on Instagram
  • Global Moderator
  • Superstar Think Fishy Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2775
  • Likes: 302
  • www.scapeeasy.co.uk
Re: Sand substrate improvement?
« Reply #5 on: September 01, 2019, 09:06:38 PM »
  • Likes On This Users Post 0
How heavily stocked are you?

It is normally recommended to do a 50% water change each week. Unless you are very lightly stocked I suggest you need to up the volume of water changed pretty quickly.

Of you can advise your stocking level it will also give me a feel for a good fertilisation regime for you.

Offline sharpandroid

  • Super Subscriber!
  • Fishy Member
  • *
  • Posts: 18
  • Likes: 0
  • Tropical Fish Keeper
Re: Sand substrate improvement?
« Reply #6 on: September 02, 2019, 06:30:44 AM »
  • Likes On This Users Post 0
A 50% water change weekly will never happen.

4 corys, 9 Cardinals, 9 Harlequins, 5 Amano shrimps, 20+ cherry shrimps.

A Selection of Fish in my Fish Community Creator Tanks
Panda Cory (4) - Slender Harlequin (9) - Cardinal Tetra (9) - Japonica Shrimp (5) -
Note: The user may not necessarily own these fish, these are tanks that they may be building or researching for stocking purposes


Offline Sue

  • Global Moderator Subscriber
  • Superstar Think Fishy Member
  • *
  • Posts: 9866
  • Likes: 403
Re: Sand substrate improvement?
« Reply #7 on: September 02, 2019, 08:29:53 AM »
  • Likes On This Users Post 0
A shop saying the results are OK is not good enough. They must tell you the numbers. If they don't volunteer the numbers, ask for them.
Too many shops think that low levels of ammonia and nitrite are OK when the only OK levels are zero.
Nitrate must be kept below 20 ppm. It used to be thought that nitrate was OK up to 100 but studies have shown that even 20 ppm is harmful to fish. Again, a shop may think that nitrate over 20 ppm is OK when it isn't (for example it is now known that a high level of nitrate is a major contributor to hole in the head disease)




Offline sharpandroid

  • Super Subscriber!
  • Fishy Member
  • *
  • Posts: 18
  • Likes: 0
  • Tropical Fish Keeper
Re: Sand substrate improvement?
« Reply #8 on: September 02, 2019, 09:09:26 AM »
  • Likes On This Users Post 0
I'll get my own test kits.
As with most hobbies there are varying degrees of time and commitment and so perfection in the tank probably won't happen but it would be nice to improve things.

A Selection of Fish in my Fish Community Creator Tanks
Panda Cory (4) - Slender Harlequin (9) - Cardinal Tetra (9) - Japonica Shrimp (5) -
Note: The user may not necessarily own these fish, these are tanks that they may be building or researching for stocking purposes


Offline Matt

  • @scapeeasy on Instagram
  • Global Moderator
  • Superstar Think Fishy Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2775
  • Likes: 302
  • www.scapeeasy.co.uk
Re: Sand substrate improvement?
« Reply #9 on: September 02, 2019, 12:24:13 PM »
  • Likes On This Users Post 0
4 corys, 9 Cardinals, 9 Harlequins, 5 Amano shrimps, 20+ cherry shrimps.

Awesome choices. In what sized tank?

Offline sharpandroid

  • Super Subscriber!
  • Fishy Member
  • *
  • Posts: 18
  • Likes: 0
  • Tropical Fish Keeper
Re: Sand substrate improvement?
« Reply #10 on: September 02, 2019, 02:10:05 PM »
  • Likes On This Users Post 0
It's a Fluval Roma 90litre.

A Selection of Fish in my Fish Community Creator Tanks
Panda Cory (4) - Slender Harlequin (9) - Cardinal Tetra (9) - Japonica Shrimp (5) -
Note: The user may not necessarily own these fish, these are tanks that they may be building or researching for stocking purposes


Offline jaypeecee

  • Superstar Think Fishy Member
  • *
  • Posts: 624
  • Likes: 59
  • Still learning...
Re: Sand substrate improvement?
« Reply #11 on: September 02, 2019, 06:46:19 PM »
  • Likes On This Users Post 0
It is normally recommended to do a 50% water change each week.

Hi Matt,

I have asked Sue about this 50% per week recommendation. OK, if you're using the Estimative Index (EI) approach to plant fertilization but otherwise it seems excessive and probably not necessary.

JPC

Offline Matt

  • @scapeeasy on Instagram
  • Global Moderator
  • Superstar Think Fishy Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2775
  • Likes: 302
  • www.scapeeasy.co.uk
Re: Sand substrate improvement?
« Reply #12 on: September 02, 2019, 11:33:22 PM »
  • Likes On This Users Post 0
You do not appear to be overstocked but your stocking is certainly at a high enough level (est 75 to 80%) at which I would recommend a large regular water change. I suggest you test if you are "getting away with" a reduced water change regime by testing your nitrates (as Sue an I have both recommended). I never mentioned EI, I don't use nor recommend it, this is not my reason for suggesting 50%. This is based off the experiences of myself and many others who have seen the difference this makes to the health of their fish. @Sue would you concur, I think I understood your response differently to JPC...

Please don't use a complete fertiliser until you have your test results, or if you plan to stick with your current water change regime etc. Dosed at high enough levels these would be equivalent to EI, I only recommend them used in a partial dose alongside micro only fertilisers to add nitrate in tanks lacking it.  Stick to micro only fertilisers for now till you know where you stand on this front.

Offline Sue

  • Global Moderator Subscriber
  • Superstar Think Fishy Member
  • *
  • Posts: 9866
  • Likes: 403
Re: Sand substrate improvement?
« Reply #13 on: September 03, 2019, 10:19:49 AM »
  • Likes On This Users Post 0
After I typed the reply in the other thread I discovered that somewhere there is scientific evidence for doing large water changes, but the person who said this didn't give links to any papers. Like Matt, I have found that my fish seem to be healthier with larger water changes.
We do need to remember that it isn't just about keeping nitrate below 20 ppm. In planted tanks, the plants will keep nitrate low so just going by nitrate alone, it would appear that water changes arn't necessary. But nitrate is not the only thing that builds up in a tank. I use to work in a hospital lab and we tested urine for many things. Fish will also excrete similar, if not the same, things as we do - and all the things in urine that we didn't test for. Fish communicate by chemical signals, and these too build up in the water. There are pathogens in all tanks, and water changes combined with cleaning the substrate will remove a lot of these. Minerals in tap water get used up, and water changes replenish these.



I have slow growing plants, with the exception of water sprite as a floating plants. These plants do not need much fertiliser; they get enough nitrogen from the ammonia made by the fish and decaying waste, they get enough phosphorus and potassium from fish food, they get enough CO2 from decaying matter in the tank (fish poo, uneaten food etc). All I use is a trace mineral fertiliser at half dose - I have soft water so my tap water has few minerals.

Offline jaypeecee

  • Superstar Think Fishy Member
  • *
  • Posts: 624
  • Likes: 59
  • Still learning...
Re: Sand substrate improvement?
« Reply #14 on: September 04, 2019, 03:47:13 PM »
  • Likes On This Users Post 0
I never mentioned EI, I don't use nor recommend it, this is not my reason for suggesting 50%.

Hi Matt,

I realize that you did not mention EI. I merely made reference to EI because the 50% water change per week is, I understand, the method they use.

JPC

Offline jaypeecee

  • Superstar Think Fishy Member
  • *
  • Posts: 624
  • Likes: 59
  • Still learning...
Re: Sand substrate improvement?
« Reply #15 on: September 04, 2019, 04:21:35 PM »
  • Likes On This Users Post 0
Is there a way to place better plant growing substrate under the sand, or could I use the tablets?

Hi,

I use Tetra Complete Substrate for the bottom layer of my planted tank substrate and there are many other options. Just be aware that some can leach ammonia into the water. I also use root tabs as, and when, required. TNC Plugs are worth considering. Take a look at:

https://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/gear/review-tnc-plugs-aquarium-substrate-fertiliser/

JPC


Offline jaypeecee

  • Superstar Think Fishy Member
  • *
  • Posts: 624
  • Likes: 59
  • Still learning...
Re: Sand substrate improvement?
« Reply #16 on: September 07, 2019, 07:47:19 PM »
  • Likes On This Users Post 0
they get enough phosphorus and potassium from fish food

Hi Sue,

Your comment above prompted me to check my tap water report from my water company. They don't give figures for phosphorus/phosphate nor do they give a figure for potassium. So, although I don't use tap water in my tanks, I measured the potassium in my tap water and it was approximately 6ppm. I have no idea how much potassium is in fish food.

JPC

Tags:
 


Assess Tankmates In The Tropical Fish Community Creator


Topics that relate to "Sand substrate improvement?"

  Subject - Started by Replies Last post
17 Replies
11358 Views
Last post November 13, 2016, 07:43:38 AM
by Littlefish
8 Replies
5094 Views
Last post November 13, 2016, 09:28:04 AM
by Sue
4 Replies
2650 Views
Last post March 07, 2017, 10:23:35 PM
by fish-friends
7 Replies
2979 Views
Last post September 30, 2018, 09:34:49 AM
by Matt
7 Replies
4168 Views
Last post October 01, 2019, 08:00:23 PM
by Hampalong
0 Replies
2709 Views
Last post November 15, 2019, 09:22:02 PM
by Matt
6 Replies
6633 Views
Last post January 29, 2024, 12:19:16 AM
by Matt

Sitemap 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 
Legal | Contact Follow Think Fish on: