Elderly Fish

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Offline fcmf

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Elderly fish
« on: December 11, 2019, 06:54:31 PM »
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I've been observing my fish for considerable time this afternoon.

I've already mentioned that some of the harlequins (age 4.5) are looking elderly. 2 have spinal deformities and 1 has a mild spinal deformity. The one with the most severe spinal deformity also has a cloudy eye - he's spent much of the past year bobbing just below the surface but springs to life when food and especially peas are put in. The other one with a spinal deformity looks as though her tail is broken/droopy; however, she's very observant and likes to play in front of the camera. Wee Harley seems to be in optimum health, but so was her shoalmate Little Harley who fell into a sudden catastrophic and fatal demise one evening this year (following eating frozen brineshrimp).

The x-ray tetras (age 5+) look a bit worse for wear - two have a bad bulging right eye, one has had it via slow onset for years (a dose of eSHa 2000 made little/no difference) and one acquired his in a spat with his shoalmate a few months ago... they bicker constantly now. They're having more difficulty finding food now but this makes them all the more determined to zoom towards it and hunt for it. The other has a spine that curves upwards from the start of the caudal peduncle area, most likely acquired through attempting to rectify a malfunctioning swimbladder. All have voracious appetites. 

This isn't about seeking advice - just general observations. Their quality of life does not appear to be affected which is good.

Photos/videos:
Harlequin with the most bent spine - view from above while he was sitting still.
Same harlequin (also with slightly cloudy eye) - view from side... definitely looks elderly!
X-ray tetras - and youtu.be/8RGxMXuFrXE
Harlequin with tail that looks almost broken / droopy (with Wee Harley beside her) - and  youtu.be/EeQ5PvHXQhE


Offline Matt

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Re: Elderly fish
« Reply #1 on: December 11, 2019, 08:11:20 PM »
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That's some very elderly fish indeed. I also had some harlies make it to a ripe old age. Your photos remind me that in the competitive world of the wild these fish would be unlikely to survive in such a condition. Especially in the case of the cloudy eyes which mine have also occasionally suffered from too.

Currently I have a very elderly honey gourami that has a spat with my Goldeneye dwarf cichlid recently and lost her feelers and ripped her fins - they now get on and you can't tell there was ever a problem, fins regrown etc. She has almost no colour, often rests on the bottom looking sorry for herself but moments later will be happily grazing the plants for algae. I have thought many times that her time might be up but she always seems to bounce back.

Where did you get your fish from by the way? I am surprised by the number of genetic defects (bent spines) you have in your gang.

Offline fcmf

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Re: Elderly fish
« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2019, 08:30:08 PM »
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Where did you get your fish from by the way? I am surprised by the number of genetic defects (bent spines) you have in your gang.
All my fish have been from the MA franchise, except for the cardinals from PAH. I got the impression that the x-ray's curved-up spine is possibly caused by a malfunctioning swimbladder and corrective swimming action, and that possibly the harlies' bent spines are caused by their swimming against the water current - but I may be wrong.  I did wonder when the first harley died - it had become increasingly emaciated - whether it might be fish tuberculosis... hope not!






Offline Littlefish

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Re: Elderly fish
« Reply #3 on: December 12, 2019, 11:42:06 AM »
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This is very interesting, thanks for sharing the pics, clips, and information @fcmf

Just out of curiosity I had a bit of a rummage around on some other sites and there seemed to be so many comments that made sense. From the comments regarding any genetically deformed fish, or fish that may develop deformities through illness of injury usually not surviving in the wild, to problems with inbreeding due to commercial farming of fish. From general old age, again wild verses tank environments, to water parameters. From fish TB (or not), to shock.

The comments and articles that I came across also seemed to cover a variety of fish, various tank inhabitants through to pond koi. I also came across a lot of comments about fish TB being contagious (generally terminal) so unlikely if only some fish effected.

Again, I have to state these were comments I came across during a rummage, not scientific articles from trusted sources found whilst researching. Perhaps it's worth sending the info & pics to the "readers questions" section of PFK to see if they picked up on this topic.

Although I would like to highlight my favourite comment, which was one regarding fish TB, and one chap said he didn't know how closely fish TB was related to human TB, but wasn't aware of fish diseases being passed to humans, with the exception of MTS (multi-tank syndrome).  :rotfl:

Offline fcmf

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Re: Elderly fish
« Reply #4 on: December 13, 2019, 12:54:18 PM »
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Perhaps it's worth sending the info & pics to the "readers questions" section of PFK to see if they picked up on this topic.
Thanks, Littlefish - I might well do just that. As it happens, I have a feeling I'm going to lose those two harlequins and an x-ray imminently - I certainly don't think they'll see the year 2020. The S-bent spine harlequin has gone very flat at his stomach - almost concave - making his eyes appear disproportionately large. The one with the droopy tail seems as though this is even more pronounced than usual - when she eats from the surface, it's as though the tail goes into a U shaped dip. I think the x-ray tetra with the curved-up tail will be next - I think he'll wear himself out attempting to combat a swimbladder resembling a helium balloon from its 'pulling upwards' effects.


Offline Littlefish

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Re: Elderly fish
« Reply #5 on: December 13, 2019, 07:37:55 PM »
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 :(

Offline Robert

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Re: Elderly fish
« Reply #6 on: December 17, 2019, 02:06:52 PM »
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Would it be right to call these OAF's!?  :isay:

A Selection of Fish in my Fish Community Creator Tanks
Clown Barb (5) - Banded Rainbowfish (2) - Bolivian Ram (4) - Angelfish (1) - Checkered Barb (18) - African Red Eye (4) - Cherry Barb (6) - Neon Tetra (8) - Golden Panchax (1) -
Note: The user may not necessarily own these fish, these are tanks that they may be building or researching for stocking purposes


Offline Littlefish

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Re: Elderly fish
« Reply #7 on: December 17, 2019, 05:57:57 PM »
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 :rotfl:

Offline fcmf

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Re: Elderly fish
« Reply #8 on: December 17, 2019, 06:35:28 PM »
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Probably quite an appropriate acronym for them.

Poor guys are looking even worse than in the video from a few days ago - the s-bent spined harlequin's belly is now so concave that his gill area looks disproportionately large and he almost looks as though he's in rigor mortis although his heart and respiratory system are clearly working, while the droopy-tailed harlequin's demeanour is fine but the anal fin area seems to have drooped along with the u-shaped tail movements. I'm going to give everyone a pea as a treat tonight - the harlies' favourite food - just in case it's The Last Supper. [Edited to add: https:///youtu.be/RS6WHc1A1pQ]

Admittedly, I was up early this morning to go in to check on them (and the dropsied cardinal tetra) by torchlight.

Offline fcmf

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Re: Elderly fish
« Reply #9 on: December 20, 2019, 04:28:21 PM »
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Droopy-tailed Harlequin is having trouble with her balance. She moves/flutters along just under the water surface, with an almost u-shaped tail at the caudal peduncle area, but not drinking or breathing/gasping from the surface. The water current tends to send her floating round the tank, then she seems to 'drop' as though the tail (and possibly swimbladder) is unable to cope with this, slightly flips over en route into a plant, at which point S-bent-spined-rigor-mortis-resembling-blind-in-one-eye Harlequin seems to step in to help and nudges her back up - or he thinks she's willing to breed, given that this resembles breeding behaviour in harlies.

If Droopy-tailed Harlequin were not so bright-eyed and alert looking, and S-bent-etc Harlequin not so excited when a pea enters the tank, I might be tempted to intervene - and am quite sure many others would. If she goes, I think he'll be swift to follow - he's becoming so emaciated that his gill area seems larger than his now-concave torso. Suffice to say I'm monitoring the situation closely as to whether and/or when I ought to intervene, possibly for both at the same time. I'd rather nature took the decision out of my hands, though.

https:///youtu.be/4tkmbefB2Mg

Offline fcmf

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Re: Elderly fish
« Reply #10 on: December 21, 2019, 08:05:18 AM »
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That's interesting to read of your similar experience, @fishtales, and thanks so much for your kind words. 

I've just got up, and went to examine the tank. She wasn't 'dancing' around, so I knew nature had taken its course.

Edited:
After some horror that nature had intervened more than I'd expected and that the cardinals had been scavenging on her body (after getting them, I read somewhere that this species have been known to do this :yikes:) - I could only see part of her body as it had folded over - thankfully, she's fully intact...  Tail definitely seems to be broken, sadly, but her eyes remain as bright-eyed and alert as ever even although she's now dead.
 :'(


Offline Littlefish

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Re: Elderly fish
« Reply #11 on: December 21, 2019, 08:22:12 AM »
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I'm so sorry to hear the news that your harlequin has passed.  :'(

Even though elderly, it is still very upsetting when a fish passes.

Offline Matt

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Re: Elderly fish
« Reply #12 on: December 21, 2019, 11:11:58 AM »
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Sorry to hear this. Clearly a good life has been had.

Offline Sue

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Re: Elderly fish
« Reply #13 on: December 21, 2019, 12:11:57 PM »
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I'm sorry to hear this  :(

Offline fcmf

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Re: Elderly fish
« Reply #14 on: December 21, 2019, 02:50:57 PM »
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Thanks, all of you, for your kind words. Yes, definitely difficult losing a fish, especially one of the most characterful ones. Given the nature of the decline, I think today would have resulted in her rolling around on the bottom, and definitely necessitated some intervention on my part, albeit it didn't come to that; let's just hope that she didn't suffer too much during the night.

I think S-spine Harlequin's demise is imminent...



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Re: Elderly fish
« Reply #15 on: December 28, 2019, 11:21:20 AM »
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It now seems that I can "close the loop" on this thread too, as far as the elderly/ailing harlequins are concerned. As predicted, S-spine Harley's demise was imminent. Last night and this morning, I could scarcely believe how S-curved his spine was and how emaciated he had become, with his gill/eyes looking disproportionately large, and I couldn't comprehend how he could possibly digest any food with such a curvature in his body. I had planned to feed his favourite food - pea - to the tank at lunchtime and monitor the situation closely. Depending on his ability to eat it, I was planning to make the euthanasia decision. As it happens, I've just returned to the room with the tank, and he must have died in the past hour. If I'm honest, I'm somewhat relieved for his sake (and to be spared the decision), although obviously sad to lose him after 4.5+ years.

This leaves two harlies - Wee Harley who appears to be in fine fettle, and one slightly-curved harlequin who suddenly appears to be breathing rapidly, as though having experienced a shock at his shoalmate's death / witnessing his lifeless body being removed by Mr FCMF.

I don't know how long the x-ray tetras have left but their demise doesn't seem as imminent as the two recently departed harlies' demise was.

Offline Sue

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Re: Elderly fish
« Reply #16 on: December 28, 2019, 11:24:54 AM »
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S-spine harlie lived a long life with you, longer than most harlies live for. You must be doing something right for him to live to the age he did.

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Re: Elderly fish
« Reply #17 on: December 28, 2019, 03:46:01 PM »
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Thanks very much, both, for your lovely kind words.

Offline Littlefish

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Re: Elderly fish
« Reply #18 on: December 28, 2019, 05:50:07 PM »
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So sorry to hear about s-spine harley. He lived a long life, and was lucky to have you to look after him.
I would be glad that the decision to intervene had been taken out of my hands, but I know it is very upsetting when a fish passes.  :'(

Offline Matt

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Re: Elderly fish
« Reply #19 on: December 29, 2019, 04:08:42 AM »
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He lived a long happy life... still feel for you @fcmf

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