Angelfish Spinning In Circles On Side And Swimming Diagonally

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Offline CardinalTetraphilia

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So I've had this one angelfish that I bought with 5 others that was kind of the runt of the group. He always seemed a little weird and looked weird. I even thought he might be a Leopald's angelfish but I doubt it because that is very rare where I am. The concerns started when the other angelfish were eating most of the food and he didn't even try to compete for it. He just stayed the same size for months while the other got bigger and bigger. I tried spot feeding but he really only got scraps. As a result of this, he was bullied quite badly as he was much smaller than the others. One night, I looked at the tank and he was swimming really erratically and weirdly at the surface like on his side. I really thought he was going to die. So I immediately moved him out of there and into his own tank and he did really well. He got a lot bigger and his fins are really healthy and beautiful and long now. However, he still swims weirdly like spinning in circles on his side. Especially when he is stressed or he is sleeping. It's really odd but I've come to love him. He's actually my favourite fish. I named him Pirate as he has a black eye patch. I know he doesn't have swim bladder disorder because he swims perfectly well sometimes. It's almost as if he likes swimming that way ? It's so strange because I see him swimming normally and he can correct himself upright. I think it might be a genetic condition ? Though I don't know because it only seemed to develop when the bullying started ? I'm not sure what to do with him to be honest. Will I ever be able to put him in with the others ? It's kind of sad really because I think he should have been a cull. I'm glad to have him because he does bring me joy because he's such a little weirdo and has such a good personality. But I do worry about him frequently. Is there anything I can do to help him ?

Offline Littlefish

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Re: Angelfish spinning in circles on side and swimming diagonally
« Reply #1 on: July 04, 2020, 10:42:36 AM »
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I don't have any personal experience with angel fish.
Does the strange swimming seem to stress the fish?
I'll try to have a rummage around for some information over the next few days, and if you could also post some pics of the fish that might be helpful.

Offline Matt

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Re: Angelfish spinning in circles on side and swimming diagonally
« Reply #2 on: July 04, 2020, 12:03:23 PM »
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I’ve also no experience with angelfish but drawing on my experience with other cichlids, it sounds like bullying and stress is the likely root cause. What can sometimes work in these situations is to remove all fish, rearrange the tank significantly and replace them, with your little one going in first. This acts to disrupt their view of hierarchies / who owns the tank etc... but with the difference in size this may not work... sorry I can’t be of more help...

Offline CardinalTetraphilia

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Re: Angelfish spinning in circles on side and swimming diagonally
« Reply #3 on: July 04, 2020, 12:59:42 PM »
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Hi @Matt ! Thank you for your reply :) I think the bullying is what set it off. But even when I removed him from the tank and into a tank of his own, he was still doing the odd swimming. I will take your advice on if ever put him back in the tank. Thank you :)

Offline fcmf

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Re: Angelfish spinning in circles on side and swimming diagonally
« Reply #4 on: July 04, 2020, 01:04:35 PM »
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It's certainly possible, and I know this very well from considerable personal and aquarist experience, that long-term movement in a different way (in this case erratic and strange swimming behaviour) can continue for a very long time beyond when the original issue might theoretically appear to have gone away / resolved, and recurs especially when not fully conscious/focused purposefully on being able to rectify or carry out the movement/action the 'proper' way. The degree to which it is evident or seemingly absent can also vary too. Aquaristically ( thought I might have invented a word here but it turns out it does exist :) ), I had an ailing and elderly x-ray tetra who started 'bouncing' and catapulting around the tank, particularly at night when he was asleep, but who was able to control this more during the daytime - I wouldn't discount a swimbladder disorder but it might be that your angelfish can control it better when fully conscious by adapting/moving differently in compensation.

From what you've described, I definitely think he has the best prospect of flourishing if you can continue to keep him in his own tank - sometimes the benefits of that outweigh the theoretical approach of a fish being social and ought not to live on its own.  I also had an ailing and elderly harlequin rasbora who I moved into an isolation tank and who went on to a live a further 2 months than would have been the case if I had left him in the main tank where he was clearly struggling.  (Like you, I became attached to this fish, in part due to this uniqueness.)

Another example of strange swimming behaviour is of a neon green rasbora with a very curved caudal peduncle area.  In his case, the actual cause is unknown - it might be TB (which some of the other fish possibly were suffering from including many of his shoalmates who died of spine curvatures), it might be his enjoyment of riding the filter current at an angle which has actually moulded his spine into this curved shape, it might be a genetic deformity that developed over time.

I'm not sure that you'll ever know a definitive answer to the cause of it, but I hope these examples and experiences help somewhat.

Offline CardinalTetraphilia

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Re: Angelfish spinning in circles on side and swimming diagonally
« Reply #5 on: July 04, 2020, 01:26:31 PM »
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Thank you so much @fcmf !! This has cleared up so much for me. That explains why he can control it during the day but not when he is unconscious ! Sorry I am definitely in awe as this has been somewhat of a mystery to me and my family for quite a while. At the moment I am keeping him in my breeding tank so I shall have to move him out of there and (excuse the phrasing) pimp out a tank just for him because I really am attached to him and I hope he lives for quite a long time. Do you think maybe he could live with some other smaller fish ? Something as slow as him and something that wouldn't nip his long fins ? Relating to  your last paragraph, I can't seem to find any sort of bent or curved parts of his anatomy. All I can say is he looks like the odd one out. However, I can't quite put my finger on it. Thank you so much anyway. This has ,for sure, given me a lot more closure than google ever could !

Offline fcmf

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Re: Angelfish spinning in circles on side and swimming diagonally
« Reply #6 on: July 04, 2020, 02:14:54 PM »
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Glad to have been of help.

Yes, it would be great to get him a tank of his own, and maybe also add some smaller fish, perhaps some sedate / slow-moving fish that wouldn't stress him out by being too active and that would be sufficiently small that he wouldn't be able to eat them. What size is his body? My immediate thought is some cardinal tetras (mine tend to live in the bottom half of the tank and, touchwood, seem very peaceful towards others*), corydoras, or some harlequin rasboras (mine tended to live in the upper half of the tank). On the basis of my own experience, I wouldn't recommend x-ray tetras or neon green rasboras (x-rays would fin-nip and too active; neon green rasboras too lively/active), or cherry barbs (from what I've read although usually considered peaceful as far as barbs are concerned).

[*tetras do have teeth, though, and someone has twice taken a(n inadvertent) bite of my one remaining harlequin rasbora's tail, possibly in the food frenzy at mealtimes.]


Offline CardinalTetraphilia

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Re: Angelfish spinning in circles on side and swimming diagonally
« Reply #7 on: July 04, 2020, 03:42:25 PM »
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Hi again @fcmf :) Yes, I've kept cardinal tetras before and they are one of my favourite fish (as my username suggests) because they are so peaceful and look nice in any tank. Would I have to get some of the larger ones. I don't think he would eat them but as he gets bigger, it might become a possibility. He's about 4.5 inches from top to bottom. I think it will take me some time to acquire a tank for him so I shall just leave him in the breeding tank for now. He seems quite happy most of the time and eats well so I hope he will be okay. I'll probably get some corydoras/otocinclus as well. Thank you so much again :)

Offline fcmf

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Re: Angelfish spinning in circles on side and swimming diagonally
« Reply #8 on: July 04, 2020, 07:14:27 PM »
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Glad he's happy most of the time and eating well. 

The general 'rule of thumb' when choosing compatible fish is to avoid fish that would fit in the mouth of a fish, so they would need to be big.  This is generally a good source https://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/pterophyllum-scalare/ but it warns quite justifiably about other tankmates.  If you do decide to opt for tankmates, then it would be worth having a spare tank for those other fish in case you encounter problems such as disappearing fish.  I've done a google of "what fish go with angelfish" and there are some interesting comments elsewhere eg https://aquariumtidings.com/angelfish-tank-mates/ or https://mrfishkeeper.com/angelfish-tank-mates/ that may be helpful.  It's never clearcut or straightforward, though, as guppies are mentioned and I've read quite a bit recently about guppies harassing other fish, especially males if they think the other fish might be female.

Hope that helps.





Offline CardinalTetraphilia

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Re: Angelfish spinning in circles on side and swimming diagonally
« Reply #9 on: July 04, 2020, 10:57:31 PM »
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Thank you @fcmf ! I probably wouldn't get anything as big as him. But platies/swordtails might work. I don't think he would be able to fit an XL cardinal tetra in his mouth even as an adult. Honestly, I'm swaying to the decision of just keeping him as the star of the tank and maybe having some corydoras. I really don't want to put him through any extra stress and bullying like he had before. Plus I'm not sure I could afford other fish if it didn't work out. Thank you so much for all your suggestions and links :)

Offline Sue

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Re: Angelfish spinning in circles on side and swimming diagonally
« Reply #10 on: July 05, 2020, 09:55:56 AM »
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Platies and swordtails are hard water fish; angelfish are soft water fish. They should not be kept together as one or other will not be happy.

If you have soft water for the angels, you need to keep to soft water fish.

Offline CardinalTetraphilia

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Re: Angelfish spinning in circles on side and swimming diagonally
« Reply #11 on: July 06, 2020, 05:34:00 PM »
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Hi @Sue the water in my area is fairly hard.  The angelfish don't seem to mind it. I looked it up and apparently angels are adaptable to waters of various pH and hardness? Does this still mean I could keep platies with my one Angel?

Offline Sue

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Re: Angelfish spinning in circles on side and swimming diagonally
« Reply #12 on: July 06, 2020, 07:32:22 PM »
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Angelfish hardness range is 0 to 15 dH, but fish are better kept in the middle of their range so nearer to 7 to 9 is the best. Platies' range is 10 to 30 dH so at least 15 is best. While there is overlap, it is the top end for angels and at the lower end for platies which means they are not compatible.

Angels are really soft water fish and I would not like to keep them in hard water. Soft water fish cannot remove enough of the hardness minerals to deposits form in their bodies, particularly in the kidneys, and this shortens their lives.

 


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