Tropical Fish Forum
Think Fish Tropical Fish Forum => Welcome to our Tropical Fishkeeping Forum - Please Read => Topic started by: Joe Browse on September 01, 2014, 05:05:02 PM
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hello
im not new to fish keeping i have a 300l tank that i bought second hand about 3 years ago but i still class myself as a massive novice. i have been going solely on the advise of my local fish store but unfortunately my fish keep dying :(
i have tested the water many times and the pH, Nitrates and the Ammonia are perfect! i dont know if it is just the quality of the fish or whether the shop is just telling me that the fish i buy can go in with the ones that i already have when actually they cant.
i have joined under recommendation of my partners uncle (also a fellow tropical fish keeper) who said that not only does everyone on here give good advice but also that its nice to have friendly people who share our much loved passion.
anyway i wont waffle on. my name is joe and i look forward to speaking with you all soon.
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Hi Joe, welcome :wave:
300 litres is a nice sized tank ;D
Besides ammonia, nitrate and pH, nitrite needs to be kept an eye on. Also hardness plays its part - you can usually find that somewhere on your water supplier's website.
What fish do you have at the moment, and is it any particular type of fish that have problems?
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Hi Sue
I have neon and cardinal tetras, silver tip tetras, male guppies (i know these are bread for colours and therefore are a very week fish) and 3 algae eaters.
I have had red wag platties, coffee mollies, cherry barbs and Indian gourami's but they all seem to die. the platties went very quickly (within a week) but the others have been fine and then all of them go over a period of a couple of days.
if it is the hardness of the water how do i change that?
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Hello Joe, and welcome to the forum.
One step at a time.... let's sort out the current water parameters you have before any talk of changing them.
Do you have a water test kit that tests for pH, Ammonia, Nitrite and Nitrate? If so, could you tell us the actual readings rather than just 'perfect', please, as actual perfect pH doesn't exist. And as Sue says.... do you know the hardness of your water?
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unfortunately i dont have a kit but i have ordered one and it will be with me by the weekend. im currently away with work and dont get home until saturday but will be able to get the test underway and come straight back to you with the results.
as for the water i am trying to find it on my water providers website as we speak.
i would like to say thank you to you and sue already as i didnt really believe my partners uncle when he said that everyone on here was so helpful and friendly and you to have proven him right!
thanks
joe
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The main things to test for are ammonia and nitrite since a level of either of these above zero is dangerous for the fish.
Nitrate is only dangerous at levels in excess of 100, but it is good practice to stop the level exceeding the amount in your tap water plus 20, just before a water change. The lowest you can get nitrate by water changes alone is the same as your tap water, and it will go up between one water change and the next. It can be lower if you have a lot of live plants (think jungle) or use RO water or one of the expensive ways of pre-treating the water to remove it.
pH by and large doesn't matter as long as it is stable and not at one extreme or the other. Fluctuating pH levels can harm the fish.
Hardness - there is only one real way to lower this and that's to use RO water (reverse osmosis, water that has had all the minerals removed) either by mixing it with hard tapwater or by using just RO with some minerals added back. Raising it is easier, you just add more minerals.
Hardness is actually more important than pH. Provided hardness is at the right end of the scale for a species, pH can be quite a bit off the 'desired' range. So looking at your fish list - neons and cardinals prefer soft acid water; guppies, mollies and platies prefer hard alkaline water; and silver tips, cherry barbs, and Indian gouramis (aka banded gouramis, Trichogaster fasciata) can tolerate both.
The problem with a lot of shops is that what they mean by good isn't necessarily what we mean by good ;)
Once we know what your readings and hardness are, we'll be able see better if there is anything wrong.
Is your partner's uncle a member on here?
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thanks sue
yes he is he joined a couple of months ago and has raved about you guys since! i am not sure what his user name is but he is always talking to you guys on here.
straight away i can see why he is raving! the explanation you just gave me made a lot more sense than what i have been told in the past.
i have had a look on southwest waters website and it says that my tap water is soft so this explains why my mollies and guppies etc are probably not living very long. will it become an issue for my cardinals and neons if i harden the water?
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hi joe
not much more i can add to the advice at the moment just a nice big freidly hi :wave:
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i have had a look on southwest waters website and it says that my tap water is soft so this explains why my mollies and guppies etc are probably not living very long. will it become an issue for my cardinals and neons if i harden the water?
Can you give us a number in relation to your hardness? i.e. In my Thames Water region they give it as...
mgl CaCO3 (ppm) 296.0
Us fishkeepers tend to divide that ppm number by 17.9 to turn it into degrees hardness...
...so my water is 16.5º
I keep one tank with guppies and a platy in this tap water, and my main tank I mix 50/50 with either rain water or RO water to bring the hardness down to 8º for my barbs and tetras.
Just 'soft' is too vague, really. (Especially for us scientists - we like numbers! :) )
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hi joe
not much more i can add to the advice at the moment just a nice big freidly hi :wave:
Hi Chris213
i have had a look on southwest waters website and it says that my tap water is soft so this explains why my mollies and guppies etc are probably not living very long. will it become an issue for my cardinals and neons if i harden the water?
Can you give us a number in relation to your hardness? i.e. In my Thames Water region they give it as...
mgl CaCO3 (ppm) 296.0
Us fishkeepers tend to divide that ppm number by 17.9 to turn it into degrees hardness...
...so my water is 16.5º
I keep one tank with guppies and a platy in this tap water, and my main tank I mix 50/50 with either rain water or RO water to bring the hardness down to 8º for my barbs and tetras.
Just 'soft' is too vague, really. (Especially for us scientists - we like numbers! :) )
I didn't know I had to be so accurate :) I have had a look on southwest waters website and I need to call the to get exact figures. All it gives me on the website is whether it is hard or soft.
I'm glad that you guys are a fountain of knowledge as I've always wanted to give breeding a go but with my lack of knowledge and experience I never tried but once I've got my tank running smoothly I think with a bit of guidance I could give it a bash
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Just another quick one. Is there a classifieds section as I'm always scanning round for new tanks/fish/ornaments etc
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No, there isn't I'm afraid. There used to be on the old forum a couple of years ago but it disappeared when the site moved hosts.
You could always try aquarist classifieds (http://www.aquarist-classifieds.co.uk/) or sites like freecycle and gumtree. Or even ebay.
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It's ok I'm always keeping an eye out on eBay and gumtree just thought I'd ask. I quite like the circular biorb tanks with the flat facias. My office just needs a small injection of life
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BioOrbs have a bit of a bad rep amongst fishkeepers - they certainly look good, but they're difficult to stock and keep. It's like Fluval Edge tanks - look great, but very restricting!
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BioOrbs have a bit of a bad rep amongst fishkeepers - they certainly look good, but they're difficult to stock and keep. It's like Fluval Edge tanks - look great, but very restricting!
Oh do they?? I've not heard this. Maybe I will give it a miss then and try to get a bigger tank for the office
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It's not so much the size as the small opening on all the shapes and the filter does leave a bit to be desired. They have undergravel filters with the rocks on the bottom being the biological media. This restricts the plants and bottom dwelling fish you can have - plants because you can't root them in the substrate and bottom dwellers because the rocks are too rough.
There are plenty small, cube shaped aquaria the same volume but a much better shape and better filters.
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Ah ok I just wanted a 20-30 litre tank as my office is only small. What would you say is a decent small tank?
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Which biorb do you mean? The cylindrical one?
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Yeah I think so I have attached an image I just found online
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That pic clearly shows the disadvantages ;D Small opening at the top, small area at the bottom, the chunky rocks that you can't change because they are the filter media etc etc
A few people on here have aqua nano tanks by aqua one. Because they are cubes they do fit into a small space. They do have a smaller footprint than a rectangular tank of the same volume but a lot more than all the biorb shapes. The smallest aqua nano at 22 litres is a bit small to do much with but the next one up, with a footprint of 40 x 40cm, is a much better sized 50 litre tank (though it probably isn't 50 litres; I have an aqua one aqua space tank and that includes the glass and frame in its volume :( )
And be very careful of taking too much notice of the on-line photos of tanks. Manufacturers have a nasty habit of 'shrinking' fish to make the tank look bigger. The guppies in your pic have definitely been shrunk.
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Speaking as someone who has an aqua nano 55 litres ( which is the one I think you're referring to Sue), it has a large compartment at the back which houses the pump, heater and filter. This, together with any substrate, plants, ornaments etc. reduces the overall available capacity to, I would say, around 48 litres. This might still be big enough for what you want Joe. Colin B has more experience with this tank than me though, andI'd recommend that you follow Sue and Colin's advice about suitable species because space is the major consideration, though it is a very nice aquarium. :)
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Thank you for the advise guys I think I will give that one a miss which is a shame as I think they look really smart but I have seen some nice square ones. I get home from sea at the weekend and will be giving my tank a birthday clean up so will get some pics for you all to see
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Ah yes, I saw a photo of that in my google search. It's not a biorb, although I don't know who does make it.
I too have the aquanano 40, again though, not had it for long. Takes up a 40 x 40 cm space on my sideboard.
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Where did my reply go????
Anyway - the AquaNano40 is a true 50litres taking into account the gravel and the air-gap. It's got great filtration as long as you stack it properly, but the lighting is a bit weak. Easy plants only!
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To be honest I would probably put fake plants in there as I tried live ones when I first got a tank and didn't really go to plan lol
I was just thinking a few small colourful shoaling fish that are easy to keep
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I feel a bit disappointed now.
I purchased my tank off a colleague at my old work who had no idea about its capacity so i gave the dimensions to my local fish store who told me it was 300l before gravel/ornaments etc but ive just used the calculator on here to find out it is in fact 211l :( It makes me doubt all the advise they have given me
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I wouldn't rely on anything a shop says till you know that they give good advice. And a lot of tank manufacturers include the glass and the air gap at the top in the volume - it's the volume of air the tank displaces rather than the volume of water it will hold - so you can't even rely on them.
Be wary of what shops say about fish, it is very common for them not to have a clue about the fish size, or for them not to care if you buy unsuitable fish as long as you buy something. Always research first - Seriously Fish is a good place to start as they have more species than the fish profiles on here.
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i will not be listening to them from now on but unfortunately it means more questions for you guys :) you've all been too helpful now :)
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We like questions - it makes us feel wanted :))
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Haha well your in luck because there will be plenty sent your way!
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so i have just had a reply from southwest water letting me know that my water is soft with a calcium concentration of 11.38mg/l
what does this mean? do i need to add RO water or should it be ok?
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so i have just had a reply from southwest water letting me know that my water is soft with a calcium concentration of 11.38mg/l
what does this mean? do i need to add RO water or should it be ok?
:yikes: That is Ultra Soft, approx 0.5º General Hardness.... no wonder your platys, mollies, guppys etc didn't last long!!! Where d'you live that the water's like that?
You'll need to harden that up.... but I've never done that before so I'll leave it to those that have.
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i live in torbay (South Devon).
How hard does it need to be?
this is all very new to me
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Just to check - that 11.38mg/l, was that just calcium or calcium carbonate? Water companies have the habit of quoting either just calcium or both, and for fishkeeping purposes we use the calcium carbonate unit or german degrees.
If it is just calcium, that 11.38 converts to 28.24mg/l calcium carbonate (CaCO3) and 1.6 german degrees.
Both of these are very soft. And your KH (carbonate hardness) is also going to be very soft. You could ask a shop to check the KH of your tapwater to be sure.
In the short term for cycling, you need to boost the KH as 1) the filter bacteria need carbonate to multiply and 2)you are in great danger of a pH crash. The simplest way to boost it is by adding baking soda (nor baking powder) sold in the home baking section at the supermarket. Use a 15ml spoonful for every 50 litres tank water. Keep an eye on your pH and as soon as you spot it dropping, add some more. Or buy a KH tester to keep an eye on that; it should be above 6 german deg/110mg/l for cycling. At the end of the cycle you will need to do a 100% water change to get rid of the sodium before getting fish.
Once you have fish, I would add something to increase the hardness slightly. Unless you want hard water fish you would only need to boost it a bit. With the low hardness you have, I don't think using crushed coral or limestone rocks would increase it enough. I would seriously think about using remineralisation salts, the ones you have to add if you use 100% RO water. A couple of examples are Kent RO right (http://www.kentmarine.com/products/kent-ro-right.htm) and Tropic Marin remin tropical (http://www.aquacadabra.co.uk/Tropic-Marin-Re-Mineral-Tropical-200g.html) making sure you get the freshwater versions not the marine.
You would use these by adding enough to raise the GH and KH to at least 4 german deg/ 72mg/l. Ideally, add to a bucket of water and test before adding it to the tank. And you'd have to be sure to add the right amount of salts to give the same reading at every water change.
The other option would be to choose only fish that prefer very soft water such as those form the Amazon. And do a couple of water changes a week to keep the KH topped up. The acids made by the nitrogen cycle and fish waste use up the carbonate, so in your circumstances it would need topping up quite frequently.
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EDIT: Sue beat me to it while I was typing.... but I'll leave it as is.
It's not really a question of 'need' - but the majority of fish would be better in the 6º to 12º range. I kept my platy and guppies in 10º quite happily.
Fish from soft water can adapt to harder water far better than fish from hard water adapt to soft water. Having said that, most fish you buy now are farm raised and have probably been raised in the middle ranges of hardness.
The other thing is that soft water (i.e. low GH) almost certainly has a low KH as well, and this is the 'buffering capacity' of the water. A tank with low KH can undergo pH crashes where the tank water goes acidic. A KH of 5ish or more would prevent this happening.
You can add spoonfuls of things to your tap water to bring up the GH and KH, and/or you can use a limestone type substrate which will slowly dissolve into your water, raising the GH and KH. However; I'll leave this to someone else 'cos I have hard water so I've never really looked into it in the detail that would be needed to offer proper advice to someone.
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ok so sorry to be a pain but im a bit thick with all of this lol
I have fish already in the tank, some of which have been in there for quite a while. do i still add baking soda? do i have to get another tank to put them in and start from scratch?
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Sorry, didn't realise there were fish in there :-[ No, don't add bicarb when there are fish in the tank. It's sodium bicarbonate and sodium isn't good for fish (it's not good for us either)
Since you have fish, I'd use one of the remineralisation salts. See which, if any, your local shops stock. Then experiment with a bucket of water and GH and KH test kits. Add it a bit at a time till you get the readings just above 4 german deg/72mg/l. Make a note of how much you add in total to what volume of water. Then just scale the amount up for the amount of water you change. Since the fish are in plain water, no added salts yet, you need to build up slowly. Don't add enough salts in one go for the volume of the tank as that would shock the fish. Add it just to the new water, at the amount for just the new water, at each water change. That would build the concentration up a bit at a time until after several water changes the tank would be the same concentration as the new water.
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I can sympathise Joe. Here in the Chilterns if my water was any harder it would be damp chalk!
Maybe half way between us there is a guy with perfect water wondering what all the fuss is about :))
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thanks sue i will be going there first thing in the morning. its weird as my guppies have been in there 2 months now which is the longest guppies have ever lasted and are swimming around, happy as ever.
i know Mogwai its crazy! i had no idea about any of this and now it turns out to more than likely the issue ive been having with fish loss :(
my plan tomorrow is to get the salts and testing kit and start getting it sorted :)