Tropical Fish Forum
Tropical Fish Keeping Help and Advice => The Emergency Room => Topic started by: Littlefish on October 14, 2016, 07:23:46 PM
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The poorly tiger barb problem still hasn't been resolved.
I have been doing daily water changes, and water parameters are still fine (0, 0, 40).
This evening everyone has had peas (including the tiger barbs) for dinner.
I've just gone for a look at the tiger barb tank and one of the dominant males is doing the wobbly swimming thing that the others were doing. This leads me to expect that the fella will pass away within the next day.
What is wrong with them? When he is swimming he is also floating, spinning, turning, and doesn't really seem to have much control over what he's doing. What should I do?
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Can I just check one thing with you - is the behaviour you're describing at a fairly normal pace ie the fish isn't going at a ridiculously crazed pace? [The reason I'm asking is because I've been reading lately and have seen videos of very alarming situations of fish in the latter situation, and reading experts' thoughts/responses on this - no-one can quite agree on the course of action to take.]
If the pace is fairly normal, then it sounds like some sort of swimbladder malfunction but these are often bacterial in origin, and the eSHa 2000 would be the best course of action for treatment given that you've also mentioned finrot and fungus. Some of this sounds similar to what was happening to my pygmy cories and, while I don't know the root cause, I have a couple of theories (in my signature) but it may well have been entirely outwith my control - as your situation seems too, unfortunately, as I'm stumped as to what further advice to offer over-and-above what I've suggested already.
The only other option that might work is a dose of aquarium salt but you need to be very careful with this in tropicals - whether to use it or not, and getting the dosage correct. It may be worth googling to see whether tiger barbs would tolerate it. [I used it to good effect with my goldfish.]
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It's a normal pace of swimming, but with what appears to be uncontrolled floating/turning/etc.
The fish that I noticed earlier was moved to the quarantine tank, but unfortunately I think I must have stressed him out by doing this and he has already passed away.
I have dosed the main tiger barb tank with esha2000, in the hope of doing something useful.
Whatever the problem is, it seems to happen very quickly.
I'm worried that I'm going to end up watching them die one by one, very quickly and on a daily basis.
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How horrible for you to be in this situation.
This is beyond my realm of experience/expertise, and I don't know what else to advise other than sincere sympathy / concern.
The aforementioned discussion I was referring to was talking about "sleeping sickness" in fish - a fishkeeper found that her black neons, harlequins, etc, were swimming at a ridiculously crazy rate and suffering from swimbladder type problems and dying suddenly, one by one, for no particular reason given her water quality, etc. Amongst numerous pieces of different advice, and contradictory advice, the presence of parasites producing these symptoms and Waterlife Octozin has been suggested as a remedy for her to try - however, I wouldn't proceed down this route in your case until @Sue or someone else more experienced than me can comment on the potential merits or otherwise of this treatment, and I certainly don't want to be misleading you up the wrong track.
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@fcmf your sympathy and support is appreciated.
I don't know what to do at the moment. I haven't switched on any tank lights yet and it's still not really light enough to see anything in the tiger barb tank at the moment.
All of the barbs that have died so far are the standard tiger barbs, none of the green ones, but I shuld imagine that is more of a coincidence than anything else.
Unless I get any other suggestions I will continue to monitor the situation, perform daily water changes, and do reduced feeds/pea feeds for now.
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The colour of the affected barbs may not be co-incidence. Did you buy all the affected standard barbs at the same time from the same shop, and the green separately? If this is what you did, there is a slim possibility it is genetic with all the fish bought at the same time being siblings. I do realise this is not likely but it is within the bounds of possibility.
Waterlife Octozin treats "sleeping sickness, hole in the head...." so this is why fcmf's reference used it. I had never heard of sleeping sickness so I've had to google it.
To be honest, I have no idea what the cause is, and knowing the cause is the key to treatments. But of all the treatments on the market I would use eSHa 2000 for external and internal bacterial infections. For internal parasites, the appropriate medication should be used. However, nothing will help against viruses.
All I can suggest otherwise is to keep on as you are and to use separate equipment for this tank just in case it is something infectious.
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I've just pulled another dead tiger barb from the tank.
I didn't see it when I did the water change this morning, even when moving decor to do a quick gravel hoover. No idea where it was.
I have purchased the barbs from 2 stores several months apart. I think that all the ones that have died may have been the standard ones from the first batch, but I can't be 100% certain as the 2nd few standard tiger barbs weren't much smaller.
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I did a 40% water change on the tiger barb tank this morning.
I also went to the LFS and had a chat with them about what was happening, to see if they had anything to add.
Anyway, so far none of the tiger barbs have died today.
Unfortunately that only leaves me with 4 standard and 9 green tiger barbs, but at least the numbers haven't diminished any further. I plan to continue with the daily water changes, and if the numbers of fish remain the same for a few days I'll start doing smaller/less frequent changes until back to the normal weekly routine.
Fingers crossed.
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Good luck! Keep us updated.
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Glad to read that there have been no more fatalities today (touchwood).
Your proposed course of action sounds good. All the best and hopefully this unfortunate bad spell has / will have run its course.
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No fatalities overnight, although none of them were overly impressed with being woken up to be counted this morning.
I don't want to speak too soon, but I hope that this is the beginning of the end of the problem.
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No fatalities during the day either. I got home to 4 standard and 9 green tiger barbs, the same as yesterday. :)
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Relieved to read that. Am sure you are approaching the tank with trepidation, wondering what you might find. Let's hope you can soon relax.
:cheers:
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All tiger barbs seem full of energy today.
I've just done a 20% water change, the barbs chased the syphon around the tank (adorable, if a tad unhelpful) then started nibbling on my hand as I was cleaning the gravel. Cheeky monkeys.
I still have no idea what was wrong with them last week, but at least the problem seems to have resolved itself for now. Hooray. ;D
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That's annoying behaviour but a good sign. A fish that isn't very well usually hides in a corner during a water change.
Fingers crossed that they are over whatever-it-was.
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All tiger barbs seem full of energy today.
I've just done a 20% water change, the barbs chased the syphon around the tank (adorable, if a tad unhelpful) then started nibbling on my hand as I was cleaning the gravel. Cheeky monkeys.
I still have no idea what was wrong with them last week, but at least the problem seems to have resolved itself for now. Hooray. ;D
Great news. That does indeed sound adorable. I think that's their way of appreciating the concern you had for them and their acknowledgement that you're doing your best for them. People vastly under-estimate fish but, from what I've seen during my experience, I wouldn't be in the least surprised if this was as I describe.
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Sounds like you're on top of whatever the problem was. Here's hoping it stays that way.
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Again I have some very active tiger barbs at feeding time.
I am going to now assume that they are over whatever happened last week, and that everything is starting to settle down.
@fcmf - it would be nice to think that the fish were showing their appreciation. However, I think it is much more likely that they were trying to chase the syphon out of the tank after seeing it on such a regular basis over the previous week. I think it's also quite likely that they were nibbling my hand either to see if I was edible, or to assert their dominance in their own tank, or to chase my hand out of their territory. Possibly the first one, considering what they are like at feeding time. ;D
Nice to see them looking better though, so I'm happy. :)
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Glad to hear you seem to have sorted this problem Donna, a great example to new users that sometimes a patient and low-impact approach is better than drastic action with major water changes and a bombardment of chemicals...
Hope the barbs stay happy and healthy. Indeed, all of your fish ;)
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Thanks Paddy.
:)
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Umm, I've lost another 2 tiger barbs today. 1 standard and 1 green. :( ???
Things had been ok for a while, and they had a regular substrate syphon and water change yesterday.
Pre-water change parameters were 0, 0, 40.
Tap water today is 0, 0, 40.
Tank water today is 0, 0, 40.
The only difference is the pH, which is slightly higher in the tank (7.8 ) than from the tap (7.4). This happens in all of my tanks, so if anyone can help me with that one as well that would be great. Have tested the hardness of my water and it is 17dH, as always.
The tank has aquabase covered by a layer of gravel. It has live plants, several pieces of mopani wood, some rocks, and the hollow log they've always had.
The female who had her tail bitten off during frisky times is growing it back.
The two tiger barbs lost today did not have any symptoms that I saw yesterday, and didn't have any physical injuries today.
Edit - I have discovered if you type 8 followed by ) it turns into a smiley. So I've put a space between them and the pH now reads 7.8 instead of 7.8)
Sue
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I'm sorry to hear that.
According to Seriously Fish, tiger barbs should be fine up to pH 8 and hardness 357 ppm (20 deg) so your water parameters shouldn't be a problem for them.
The pH 7.4 tap water, is that freshly run or water that's stood overnight? If it's freshly run, leave a glass of water to stand overnight and test again. It may well be higher that it was. That's the first thing to try.
It could be co-incidence that the two most recent deaths occurred just after a water change. Was there any such connection with the previous deaths?
I have to confess that I have no idea what the problem is. Since there are no external symptoms, it must be internal, and this could be bacterial, viral, protozoan or parasitic. The problem is diagnosing which one.
I have read recently about protozoan internal infections becoming more common, but the treatment for that is metronidazole which needs a prescription in the UK.
The most common parasitic infection is camallanus worms but you'd know if they had that - small red threads protruding from the anus when the fish is motionless - the worms go back inside when the fish swims.
Viral infections are incurable.
Bacterial infections are treatable, though we don't have very strong medications in the UK (eg antibiotics)
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It's been a bit of a day, but the smiley thing made me chuckle. Thanks for the edit Sue.
The tap water was fresh, but I've got some dechlorinated water sitting overnight, and I will run some more tap water and leave it overnight, and test the pH on both.
I think that it probably is a concidence that the recent problems were post-water change. Previously the problems decreased with water changes, and I've been doing regular small water changes twice a week since the problems cropped up. Perhaps the water change just stressed some already poorly fish. I have been keeping quite a close eye on the tank, and didn't notice any wobbly swimming this time.
Whatever it is seems to be happening quickly, or not showing any symptoms apart from the final one.
I've not seen any worms associated with the barbs, and the fish all seem to have been eating and behaving normally.
Is there anything I should be doing for them now?
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Aw no, really sorry to read of this, Littlefish; I'd actually been thinking about your barbs during my 2-minute lunchbreak today and thinking/hoping you'd got through this difficult time, so this is disappointing to read.
I can't think of anything else to advise; I really wish I could.
I think this is an extremely long shot but a friend of a friend was advised to avoid doing water changes on a certain day of the week because that was allegedly the day after ?chlorine is added to the water; she checked with the water company who verified this. Since then, her fish fatalities have dropped. Just this week, I skimmed a posting / mention of something similar on the web about treatment/chemicals added to the water on a certain day of the week but the response was that everything was automated nowadays so this should no longer be a factor. Sue or someone else may know / be able to comment further on this, but I'm really "clutching at straws" here and doubt that this is a factor in your situation.
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I can verify that the chlorine being added on any particular day thing is not accurate. Each sampele of water in the UK which is taken from our taps must meet criteria for bacteriological levels (0) and must have enough chlorine in to ensure that this is the case. Chlorine is therefore added consistently in an automated fashion. Further to this, between the water treatment works and our homes there are a series of storage tanks which help balance flows between our constantly fluctuating demand for water and the more consistent production at the treatment works. This sometimes requires rechlorination to boost levels again in our supply. I believe this is where this belief comes from, however the chlorine is added where it can be easily mixed i.e. dosed constantly into the pipes entering and or leaving the tank, rather than dumping a load into the tank directly for example.
Hope that makes sense... I'm sorry to have ruled out something else without having a further suggestion.
That said, It strikes me that the choice currently is to either ensure excellent water quality to allow the fish to fight whatever it is by themselves or to treat the water to help them fight it off. It might be that from this you reach the conclusion that given that there have been further deaths despite maintaining excellent water quality, it is time to treat. this is not easy however, as currently the cause is unknown and medications are generally specific. My somewhat overly logical approach here is leading me to think about what ''general" medications might be worth trying OR what else could be done to help either give a little boost to the fish or help kill anything that might be impacting them but is ultimately more susceptible to changes than the more robust organism which is the fish such as adding a little salt, increasing the temperature etc. To be clear, these arnt suggestions as such but just where my logic takes me. Does this prompt any thoughts for anyone?
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I've tested the pH of tap water and dechlorinated tap water left overnight. 7.4 for both.
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Several years ago, one shop told me that some of his customers had unexplained fish deaths after water changes on a Saturday. One customer phoned the water company and was told that they flushed the pipes with lime on a Saturday. Remember this was third hand information so I always presumed what the water company actually did was use a chemical to flush limescale out of the pipes. Which also doesn't make sense as we have soft water so very little limescale :-\ Unless they did actually flush the pipes with lime ???
Whatever it was, they did something on a Saturday.
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I've tested the pH of tap water and dechlorinated tap water left overnight. 7.4 for both.
In that case, something in your tanks is making the pH go up.
Do you have anything calcareous in your tanks? For example, coral, limestone, shells, even the substrate. Though at that pH they shouldn't dissolve very much, it takes acidic water (below pH 7) to dissolve it properly.
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That's what I thought, but as the pH goes up in all of my tanks I wasn't sure what it could be.
Most tanks have JBL Aquabasis plus as the planting substrate, covered either by aquarium sand, aquarium gravel, turtle pebbles, depending on whether or not I have bottom feeders in the tank. Axolotl tanks only have sand substrate.
All tanks have some bogwood and usually also mopani wood, and all have live plants.
Not all tanks have rocks.
Most tanks have either a fake hollow log thingy, or fake rock cluster/stone bridge thingy, or similar, which are polyresin.
I think I'm going to have to investigate this further. I have an empty tank or two, so much spend some timeover the next few weeks/months slowly setting them up and testing the water to see when the pH starts to change. Will also be getting the vinegar out to test the rocks.
It might be nice to get to the bottom of any many of the issues as I can. ???