Sudden Unexplained Barb Deaths [+ General Disc'n About Water, Conditioner, Etc.]

Water changes - and anything else which involves disturbing fish - should only be done at least half an hour after the tank lights turn on. It takes fish's eyes that long to adjust to the tank lights.

Actually it only takes a minute or two for fishes eyes to adjust, just like ours. Tank lights should never be switched on until the room lighting has been on for a few minutes, otherwise it’s very painful for them (just like us if you come out of the dark into the sun and don’t close your eyes). And you don’t have to have the lights on to do a water change...

In my experience once the damage has been done, moving the fish to good water will not help much.

I was a little hasty in my "no deaths" comment, I found a Harlie in the floating plants when doing the water change, don't think it had been there too long
Still think there is something amiss one barb not looking great, breathing really heavily and pretty stationery pointing downwards, and another Harlie isn't looking great either 
The rest look OK and behaving normally. 

Tap water, tank water and tap water with fluval added, all hover slightly between 0ppm and 0.25ppm, which is how it's always been, and using the ammonia calculator Sue gave me in one of my very first post suggests ammonia is OK, giving NH3 concentration of 0.0088ppm.

Given I can't see any outward sign of disease, (apart from the rapid breathing) I'm thinking I should just leave them where they are opposed to using the hospital tank?

Sorry to read about your harley and that another isn't looking great. I agree that, with no outward sign of disease other than rapid breathing, it's probably best to leave them where they are.

Back in connection with @jaypeepcee's comment in #18 in this thread which precipitated my piggybacking on your thread,

These unexplained deaths really got me thinking - particularly as it happened following a water change. I'm wondering if the chloramine level in the tap water was higher than normal. So, although @Lynne W almost certainly treated her tap water with a dechlorinator, it may have removed chlorine but failed to fully remove the ammonia component of chloramine.

, I've had a look at your Fluval Water Conditioner online and indeed I see that it's very similar to the issue I'm talking about re API Tap Water Conditioner - basically it has the same claims with regard to addressing chloramine, you and I both find that our ammonia readings are next-to-none (I found the thread containing the ammonia calculator plus your result, and my own result is below), but apparently in spite of these claims on the product and our own test reading results indicating no ammonia, ammonia is actually released and only an ammonia detoxifier will address this. It seems rather absurd that products such as these are manufactured but wouldn't address this aspect. Therefore, following JPC's very helpful advice, I've contacted API to find out whether the Tap Water Conditioner actually removes free ammonia and ammonium from tap water that has undergone chloramine treatment by the water supplier, and await their response (their 24-hour turnaround mustn't apply to weekends). Realising that the issue was likely the same for you, I've taken the liberty of also contacting Fluval about its Water Conditioner product and with the very same query.

In the meantime, I'd strongly advise you to contact the water supplier, give them your postcode, and ask them if your water supply is treated with chloramine rather than simply chlorine, as you're interested from a fishkeeping perspective. If they reply that it's not, then that eliminates that as a possible explanation for the deaths. If they reply that it is, then I would keep a watchful eye out for the responses I receive from our respective water conditioner manufacturers. If the ammonia-release aspect is not addressed by the products, then another product may have to be used which does detoxify the ammonia.

fcmf's result on ammonia calculator, if assume that level of ammonia was at the top of the range of <0.05 ie 0.05 and PH is at its most extreme high end of 8:
NH-N(NH3-N)+(NH4-N) - NH3+NH4 0.0642, NH3 0.0031
NH(NH3+NH4) - NH3+NH4 0.05, NH3 0.0025

Again, dechlorinators cannot remove ammonia from the water. How would they do that? All they can do is break the chloramine bond, and convert free ammonia to ammonium. That’s what those that ‘take care of the resultant ammonia’ do.

Realising that the issue was likely the same for you, I've taken the liberty of also contacting Fluval about its Water Conditioner product and with the very same query.

In the meantime, I'd strongly advise you to contact the water supplier, give them your postcode, and ask them if your water supply is treated with chloramine rather than simply chlorine, as you're interested from a fishkeeping perspective. If they reply that it's not, then that eliminates that as a possible explanation for the deaths. If they reply that it is, then I would keep a watchful eye out for the responses I receive from our respective water conditioner manufacturers. If the ammonia-release aspect is not addressed by the products, then another product may have to be used which does detoxify the ammonia.

@fcmf thanks for contacting fluval, I've also contacted the water company but the girl didn't know, at least she's taken my details and going to get someone to come back to me. There is a post code checker on Scottish Water website which will seemingly tell me but it's not working!

@jaypeecee in answer to your questions
I use API Freshwater Master Test Kit for all my readings, and yes they are "in date".
temp is 24.9
ph 7.4 - 7.8
nitrite 0ppm

@fcmf
   
    My PolyFilter lasts about a year doing 50 gallons per week. Usually it won’t change after the water container is refilled, and  sometimes it will go a little bit browner. Occasionally it’ll go a few months worth of browner in one weekend. I wouldn’t be without it now on all my fishes’ tap-water. I should be on commission!

I didn't realise it lasted that long, that's interesting.

Yes, you should be on commission. 

Thanks, @Hampalong - that clarification is helpful.

@LynneW - I've had a reply from Fluval as follows (and am still awaiting a reply from API):
Q: I wondered whether Fluval water conditioner removes free ammonia and ammonium from tap water that has undergone chloramine treatment by the water supplier?
A: Yes, Aqua Plus will neutralise ammonia and ammonium from tap water.
Scientists on here may wish to comment.

Q. Will it remove it?
A. Yes it will neutralise it.
I’m no scientist but they’ve done a pretty good job of not answering the question.
In other words it converts ammonia to ammonium.

I believe it’s metals but I could be wrong...I recommend PolyFilter as protection from these occasions (you can tell when they happen by the sudden darkening of the sponge).

Hi @Hampalong

With PolyFilter/Poly Filter/Poly-Filter, darkening (going brown/black) does not indicate the presence of heavy metals. On the contrary, it is more likely to indicate the presence of 'heavy' organics as per this link:

http://www.arcadia-aquatic.com/product/poly-filter/

Three days ago, I contacted Poly-Bio-Marine, Inc. requesting a copy of a study they published way back in Sept '97. The study was looking at the effect of Poly Filter on heavy metals. Interestingly, they refer to it as Poly-Filter on the product packaging as does Arcadia, the UK Importer.

I will keep everyone posted.

JPC

Quote from: Littlefish on January 07, 2020, 11:53:17 AM

I didn't realise it lasted that long, that's interesting.

Yes, you should be on commission. 

In a tank it won’t last long (weeks) but on the tapwater we get most weeks one 8”x4” pad will be chocolate brown after a year-ish. I’ll then add a new one and leave the old ones in to eventually get to dark-chocolate brown.

The water here is very similar to the water I had in Cambridge, especially the high nitrates. I've been using the  Pozzani nitrate filter cartridges when running tap water into containers for tank maintenance, which means a fairly slow flow rate. I guess it wouldn't hurt to use a pad for the tap water, especially considering recent conversations about tap water over holiday periods.

I'm not using pads in my tanks, not only because I have so many tanks, but also because I use catappa leaves and other bits in most tanks, and the majority of my gang are prolific poopers, so I can't imagine how many filter pads I'd go through. However, I'm working on the theory that if the water I'm putting into the tanks is of decent quality, and I do regular water changes & poop hoovering, then things will be ok. Just using pads on the tap water would help with that.

API Tap Water Conditioner contains only thiosulphate (removes chlorine) and EDTA (binds metals). It does not contain anything to detoxify ammonia which is why it isn't really suitable for chloramine. And it contains nothing for the slime coat.

There is only one shop I know that sells API Tap Water Conditioner and that is a good half hour drive away, so I get mine on Ebay.


If you decide to get this dechlorinator I would get the 30 ml bottle, then next time get a larger bottle. The dose rate is 1 drop per gallon/3.8 ml or 1 ml per 15 gallons/60 litres. I use a bucket to refill and add 2 drops to 7.6 litres in an 8 litre bucket. I need a dropper to do this and the 30 ml bottle has a dropper lid. All the larger sizes have a cup lid. So buying the 30 ml size will give a dropper-lid bottle, then when it runs out, the bigger size can be used to refill the small bottle.
Don't be tempted to buy the very large bottles. Unless you have a huge tank or a fish room it will pass the expiry date before you've used half of it. The 118 ml bottle treats 6700 litres.

Thanks all, I'll try that @fcmf I'll be in touch.