Tropical Fish Forum
Tropical Fish Keeping Help and Advice => The Emergency Room => Topic started by: Lynne W on December 26, 2019, 09:35:09 AM
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Merry Christmas everyone. On the fish front it's been a bit stressful :(
After water change on Monday half of my 5 band barbs were acting strangely in that the were huddling in the top back corner of the tank, pretty much stationery with their heads pointed downwards. One was dead on Tuesday another on Wednesday and 2 this morning??
Really not sure what to do, there is no outward signs of disease and the remaining ones all seem reasonably OK, the ones that died were the biggest and were that size when I got them, so probably older than the rest, but they all looked in great condition to do think it's age, and would probably we a bit strange from them to do one day after another??
I cleaned the filter and some of the décor during the water change, so wonder if I've kicked something up, but not sure why this would just affect the larger barbs??
Any ideas on course of action, I was going to do a water change today, but given there isn't anything obvious as to who may be ill I wasn't going to move anyone out of the main tank.
Water parameters all fine, although going to check them again now.
Cheers
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Can I just run through a couple of things to eliminate them.
You did add dechlorinator?
The new water was roughly the same as the tank, not icy cold?
You cleaned the filter media in old tank water not tap water?
Do you usually clean the substrate at each water change?
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Hiya Sue, it’s a yes to all of them, the only one that could be in doubt would be the dechlorinator. Al helped me fill the big container I use and neither of us remember specifically adding or not adding it, not normally something I’d forget, but you never know.
I changed 50% of the water this morning. A few of the barbs are still a bit ropey looking but everyone else still looks OK.
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Barbs are very susceptible to toxins.
Sounds like a ‘bad batch’ of tapwater. Whatever the authorities are putting in it, they’re very likely to put extra in at Christmas to cover the time off etc. It’s a common time for bad water.
I lost a whole tank to it once. That’s why I filter all water through PolyFilter first, and never do water changes near a bank holiday.
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cheers Mark, good advice and whatever it is it does only seem to be affecting the barbs, or at least affecting them more than the others who look to be behaving normally. Lost another barb this afternoon, this time one of the smaller ones which I think is a slightly different type of 5 band. I'll look into the filter you mentioned as hate to think it's something I've done :vcross:
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If you suspect there's something bad in the tap water in not sure whether to advise the normal "do lots of water changes". Do you have any activated carbon you could use?
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hiya @Matt yeah I've got fluval carbono? would I just put in in one of the filter compartments? I'm going away on Saturday for a week (not great timing) should I leave it in, or take it back out before I go?
no more death yet but they are still not right a few of them are just kind of hanging head down, but they are eating a little which is something.
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I would put it in the filter and leave it in whilst you are away.
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Ok that's the carbon in, I won't do anything else before going on holiday but at least I feel as if I've done something positive, sitting all day watching them is a bit of an odd way to spend boxing day, but I just couldn't go out and leave them.
thanks all.
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Barbs are very susceptible to toxins. Sounds like a ‘bad batch’ of tapwater. Whatever the authorities are putting in it, they’re very likely to put extra in at Christmas to cover the time off etc. It’s a common time for bad water.
Hi @Hampalong
To which 'toxins' are barbs particularly susceptible? I really would like to better understand this. It seems very odd that water companies would put something extra in tap water at Christmas. I thought they operated 24/7/365. I'm not saying that you are wrong but it seems very odd. I know someone who used to work for a water company. I'll check this out. I myself use RO/DI water so this is all new to me.
JPC
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Really sorry to read of your fatalities and casualties. Not sure there is any more advice I can add to that already given.
Presumably you've not had anything different happening lately such as scented candles, aerosols or plug-in air fresheners in the same room as the tank?
Fingers crossed that whatever has been happening resolves itself soon.
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That’s why I filter all water through PolyFilter first
Polyfilter is a quite expensive filter medium. It removes all sorts of toxins, and despite the price it is worth having some in the cupboard at all times just in case. Unlike medications, it doesn't have an expiry date.
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Hi @Hampalong
To which 'toxins' are barbs particularly susceptible? I really would like to better understand this. It seems very odd that water companies would put something extra in tap water at Christmas. I thought they operated 24/7/365. I'm not saying that you are wrong but it seems very odd. I know someone who used to work for a water company. I'll check this out. I myself use RO/DI water so this is all new to me.
JPC
I don’t actually know which particular ‘contaminants’ Barbs are susceptible to JPC, so I’ll say all of them.
It used to be the done thing for the water authorities to dump their chemicals into the reservoirs just before the weekend. I used to drive past Ladybower Res in Blackburn twice a day and would see the bags lined up on the bank every Thursday. Of course, a lot of parameters (including the levels of 40+ substances) need to be within acceptable ranges at all times, so before a long weekend they would usually dump in a bit more, the idea being that a skeleton monitoring staff would be present over the holidays, but the majority of staff would be off work. Back in the 70s and 80s fish tank water issues and wipeouts were fairly common around bank holidays. Less so these days, but it still happens occasionally.
I’m rather ignorant about what actually happens. They add aluminium for some (bacterial?) reason I believe, for example...
Carbon will work in most cases. PolyFilter will work every time (he says cautiously. I’ve never had a water issue since...)
@Lynne W if you go for PolyFilter further down the line make sure it is written exactly as I’ve written it. There are several imposters, but that exact spelling is a registered trade mark so cant be copied.
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thanks all, thankfully no more death this morning although not convinced not out the woods as a few are still doing the weird hanging thing.
@fcmf, wracking my brain to think is something was different, there was one small candle on for a few hours on Christmas eve, but that was after they started acting strange, but at least that's reminded me of not doing that sort of thing.
@Hampalong, might sounds like a stupid question, but if I was going to get a PolyFilter how do you use this if you were only using it at water changes?
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I don’t actually know which particular ‘contaminants’ Barbs are susceptible to JPC, so I’ll say all of them.
It used to be the done thing for the water authorities to dump their chemicals into the reservoirs just before the weekend. I used to drive past Ladybower Res in Blackburn twice a day and would see the bags lined up on the bank every Thursday. Of course, a lot of parameters (including the levels of 40+ substances) need to be within acceptable ranges at all times, so before a long weekend they would usually dump in a bit more, the idea being that a skeleton monitoring staff would be present over the holidays, but the majority of staff would be off work. Back in the 70s and 80s fish tank water issues and wipeouts were fairly common around bank holidays. Less so these days, but it still happens occasionally.
I’m rather ignorant about what actually happens. They add aluminium for some (bacterial?) reason I believe, for example...
Carbon will work in most cases. PolyFilter will work every time (he says cautiously. I’ve never had a water issue since...)
@Lynne W if you go for PolyFilter further down the line make sure it is written exactly as I’ve written it. There are several imposters, but that exact spelling is a registered trade mark so cant be copied.
Hi @Hampalong
Many thanks for your reply.
Even the more fascinating as you mentioned the Ladybower dam, as it used to be known when I lived over t'other side of t'Pennines from 1953 to 1972. I can vouch for the efficacy of PolyFilter (the real one). I did use it sparingly a few years ago but it was (and probably still is) very expensive.
JPC
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PolyFilter used to be made by Underworld. I think the Arcadia one is the replacement. It certainly feels the same - stiff and white.
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https://www.swelluk.com/arcadia-aquarium-poly-filter/
That’s the one, they’ve just spelt it wrong. It’s the same stuff. It was invented by Poly-Bio-Marine, sold to Underworld who sold it to Arcadia.
Lynne it’s a sponge. You could use some kind of water container and a small internal filter for a few hours. Used on tap water it will last a long time. You can use it in the tank’s filter but it won’t last nearly as long.
JPC you didn’t spot my deliberate mistake (?), moving the dam to Blackburn and calling it a res. It’s was a while ago. It wasn’t Ladybower at all, it was Fishmoor in Blackburn... ::)
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Hi Everyone,
These unexplained deaths really got me thinking - particularly as it happened following a water change. I'm wondering if the chloramine level in the tap water was higher than normal. @Hampalong made the comment that:
"Sounds like a ‘bad batch’ of tapwater. Whatever the authorities are putting in it, they’re very likely to put extra in at Christmas to cover the time off etc. It’s a common time for bad water".
So, although @Lynne W almost certainly treated her tap water with a dechlorinator, it may have removed chlorine but failed to fully remove the ammonia component of chloramine. Perhaps, @Lynne W, you could confirm which 'dechlorinator' you used. Not all tap water treatments give a comprehensive breakdown of what is actually removed. But, the following list is very useful:
http://www.thetropicaltank.co.uk/rev-cond.htm
There are a few surprises on there!
Please note that the links to external websites don't seem to work!
JPC
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I was able to read the post but wasn't able to reply properly at the time, but coincidentally also had this thought which I subsequently forgot all about - thanks for the reminder, JPC. A good friend of a good friend keeps fish and discovered that she tended to have fatalities following a water change - she subsequently discovered that she was undertaking water changes the day of/following the weekly addition of chloramine and so adjusted the day of her water changes which solved the issue.
That said, Sue reminded me a/several year(s) ago that the list you've posted is out-of-date, JPC, as more and more products are addressing chloramine due to its increased usage by water suppliers these days. For example, I now use API Tap Water Conditioner which does address chloramine - just more drops are added for that purpose. :)
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That said, Sue reminded me a/several year(s) ago that the list you've posted is out-of-date, JPC, as more and more products are addressing chloramine due to its increased usage by water suppliers these days. For example, I now use API Tap Water Conditioner which does address chloramine - just more drops are added for that purpose. :)
Hi @fcmf
If the list is out-of-date, that's annoying to say the least. I checked that and, at the bottom RHS of the page, it says "This website was last updated on 4th December 2019"! So, I checked the API website as I knew that @Sue used this. The description of what API Tap Water Conditioner removes is:
"API Tap Water dechlorinates aquarium and tap water, detoxifies heavy metals, and may be used in both fresh and salt water". No mention of chloramine.
Perhaps, it explicitly states on the bottle that it removes chloramine?
JPC
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Aaah, in that case of it stating an update date of this month, I stand corrected - and perhaps some of the content has been updated from when I last looked at this. My apologies. I don't want to poke around in the "fish cupboard" (to retrieve and take a photo of the bottle) as the light is off and they're hopefully sleeping but this might help if you click on the picture to read it better: https://www.swelluk.com/api-tap-water-conditioner/
Following this discussion https://forums.thinkfish.co.uk/fishtank-filtration-and-cycling/water-conditioner-some-queries/msg35270/#msg35270, I check the ammonia levels in the tank both pre- and post- water changes and they've always been fine despite definitely having chloramine added to the water supply.
This might also be of interest to folk re the MA's product: https://forums.thinkfish.co.uk/general-fishkeeping-chat/think-fish-keepers-daily-news/msg40274/#msg40274
[Edited to add: my ?browser shows the update date of that article as 15 Feb 2018, not 4 Dec 2019.]
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Given recent discussions on the wider forum. There's a few question I have about all this... here goes...
The website link for testing dechlotinator seems to suggest the best products for treating chlorine and chloramine without doing anything else (given our passion on here for not adding additional chemicals unless neccessary) are the ammonia "treatments".
1) can someone explain the chemistry of this very simply to a chemistry dunce?
2) will the function of binding heavy metals significantly affect fertilisation regimes? I know your supposed to dose ferts the day after water change day, but that is too much for me to remember... young family and all that
3) I looked at a few of the products most of which I'm not familiar with e.g. Seachems Amguard.which says dosage level is 5ml per 200litres. But this is for ammonia removal -is it the same dosage for chlorine - they don't mention this function, are these products as effective as dechlorinator?
4) the Seachem site also states "Unlike competing products, AmGuard™ converts it into a safe, non-toxic form that is readily removed by the tank’s biofilter. It does not alter pH". So
A) presumably most alter on which is a bad thing?
B) presume it converts it to nitrite so also a bad thing?
5) having recently won a bottle of microbe lift dechlorinator, I can visibly see the gasing off of the chlorine when it is added to the bucket and assume this is a good sign?
6] How do a assess a product that's not listed in a similar fashion e.g.
https://seachem.co.uk/product/seachem-safe-fsw-50g/ (https://seachem.co.uk/product/seachem-safe-fsw-50g/)
7) rollup question! Should I be using ammonia treatment instead of dechlotinator?
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The bottle of API Tap Water Conditioner does state 1 drop per gallon to treat chlorine and 3 drops per gallon to treat chloramine. But it does not detoxify the ammonia part of chloramine, you have to use another product to do that.
I have found a website saying that all "ammonia detoxifiers" are just snake oil. They don't work, they are just something to make fish keepers think that are keeping their fish safe.
To answer Matt's questions - but in no particular order:
The chemical that removes chlorine (thiosulphate) turns it into chloride which does not harm fish or micro-organisms. Chlorine shouldn't gas off; if you see that, it must be something else going on. Unless microbe lift use something else. Does the bottle have a list of ingredients?
The chemical that removes metals (EDTA) binds them in a metal complex. My chemistry research was on this type of chemical, and specifically binding cobalt. I don't think there is much EDTA in dechlorinators; not enough to remove every scrap of added fertiliser metals, but enough to reduce the amount free in the water.
I have not used anything but API Tap Water Conditioner for years so I have no idea what other brands claim. But when a product says it removes chlorine, that includes the chlorine half of chloramine. I do not know why API TWC says to use 3 times more for chloramine.
AmGuard says on the bottle that it removes ammonia, chlorine and chloramine. But the website does not say what's in it. API Ammo Lock does say it contains aliphatic amines and thiosulphate, so that definitely does both.
AmGuard just means that whatever it turns ammonia into, the ammonia can still be used by the filter bacteria in exactly the same way as the ammonia made by the fish. It's just hype to make you think AmGuard does something special while it's actually the bacteria doing all the work. AmGuard just temporarily binds the ammonia till the bacteria have removed it.
You should always use a dechlorinator. If the water company uses chloramine, you should also use an ammonia detoxifier. Most products do both. But most products also contain a 'slime coat promoter'.
If you use a product which only detoxifies ammonia, you'll still have chlorine in the water.
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The chemical that removes chlorine (thiosulphate) turns it into chloride which does not harm fish or micro-organisms. Chlorine shouldn't gas off; if you see that, it must be something else going on. Unless microbe lift use something else. Does the bottle have a list of ingredients?
See list of ingredients at:
This might also be of interest to folk re the MA's product: https://forums.thinkfish.co.uk/general-fishkeeping-chat/think-fish-keepers-daily-news/msg40274/#msg40274
You should always use a dechlorinator. If the water company uses chloramine, you should also use an ammonia detoxifier.
:yikes: :yikes: :yikes:, even although Following this discussion https://forums.thinkfish.co.uk/fishtank-filtration-and-cycling/water-conditioner-some-queries/msg35270/#msg35270, I check the ammonia levels in the tank both pre- and post- water changes and they've always been fine despite definitely having chloramine added to the water supply.
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Ammonia detoxifiers/‘removers’ all do the same thing. They convert free ammonia (NH3) into ammonium (NH4+). That’s all they do. Filter bacteria don’t care what form it’s in, it’s all the same to them.
I think some cases can be averted by a larger dose of a dechlorinator. BTW the symptoms of a bad batch of tapwater are not the symptoms of ammonia or chlorine poisoning. Survivors often show ongoing illness and weakness, and never fully recover. I had a tank of Satanoperca take a whole year to die as the result of one bank holiday water change...
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I think some cases can be averted by a larger dose of a dechlorinator. BTW the symptoms of a bad batch of tapwater are not the symptoms of ammonia or chlorine poisoning. Survivors often show ongoing illness and weakness, and never fully recover. I had a tank of Satanoperca take a whole year to die as the result of one bank holiday water change...
I feel almost light-headed... In that case, I'm wondering if what I was attributing to part of the ageing process in my fish may actually have been caused by the tap water conditioner I was using. Starting its use https://forums.thinkfish.co.uk/fishtank-filtration-and-cycling/api-tap-water-conditioner-in-praise-of/msg41663/#msg41663 does seem to coincide with when I first started noticing changes in my fish https://forums.thinkfish.co.uk/fish-health/fish-health-in-my-tank/20/ which ultimately I put down to age.
There will be occasions when I haven't / been scrupulous about testing ammonia (eg didn't wait the full 15mins to see if the yellow actually turned green) and so it's possible on those occasions that there may actually have been some presence of ammonia in some newly dechlorinated water that therefore "slipped through the net" - although every ammonia reading has been fine, would be typical lack of luck in my case that on the occasions I may have been less scupulous, this has happened and may ultimately have led to my elderly fish's health conditions...
:vcross: :vcross: :vcross:
Edited to add: I do have a mini bottle of Seachem Prime for emergency use in the event of ever having ammonia. The Limpopo sand also arrived today by 1st class mail. I've been able to enlist some help with a water change and have dosed with Prime (as well as added some Limpopo sand) - think best order some more of this for use from now on!!!
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The reason I won't use Prime is because they refuse to say what's in it. The fewer things I add to my tank, the better!
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Sorry - I know this has gone a bit off-topic but, on the chloramine topic, I'm still horrified that I may have inadvertently been exposing my fish to ammonia (since using ATP Tap Water Conditioner in lieu of Seachem Prime or Microbe Lift Extreme). Can someone with sufficient chemistry knowledge tell me whether it's possible that a negative ammonium result post- water change (e.g. while the chloramine bond is being broken) may actually fluctuate and become positive for a bit before becoming negative again? In other words, is it possible that a water change on a Saturday might have a negative ammonium result on the being-discarded old water and a negative result on the replacement/new water after it's been dechlorinated but for that to have been a temporary result when breaking the chloramine bond only for the water to develop ammonia for several days such as Sun-Wed but to rectify itself again by the Thursday?
As for Seachem Prime, my understanding was that it detoxified ammonia/nitrite/nitrate for 24/48 hours. Does this mean that they become toxic again after that?
Sorry if I'm a bit dim here - too many mince pies consumed and possibly affecting my brain cells!
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I have found a website saying that all "ammonia detoxifiers" are just snake oil. They don't work, they are just something to make fish keepers think that are keeping their fish safe.
Hi Everyone,
I suspect that "ammonia detoxifiers" simply convert toxic ammonia (NH3) to non-toxic ammonium (NH4+) by reducing pH. So, you could easily check if my hypothesis is correct. Of course, that is nothing but pulling the wool over the customers' eyes - if I'm correct. But, here's a product that looks interesting:
https://fritzaquatics.com/products/fritz-complete
Note the comment about pH. I have used Fritz products before (https://fritzaquatics.com/products/fritzzyme-turbostart-700-freshwater) without success. But they have a good reputation, it would appear.
I'll be interested in further developments. As I don't use tap water for fishkeeping, consider me to be a mere spectator!
JPC
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Can someone with sufficient chemistry knowledge tell me whether it's possible that a negative ammonium result post- water change (e.g. while the chloramine bond is being broken) may actually fluctuate and become positive for a bit before becoming negative again? In other words, is it possible that a water change on a Saturday might have a negative ammonium result on the being-discarded old water and a negative result on the replacement/new water after it's been dechlorinated but for that to have been a temporary result when breaking the chloramine bond only for the water to develop ammonia for several days such as Sun-Wed but to rectify itself again by the Thursday?
Hi @fcmf
Firstly, we need to get some terminology correct. 'Ammonia' can take two forms. One is ammonium (NH4+) and this is non-toxic. Then, there is free ammonia (NH3) which is a gas and this is the toxic form. The two forms can exist separately or in combination according to the water pH and temperature. Most aquarium test kits appear to measure the total ammonia, i.e. ammonium and free ammonia combined. Seachem, however, produce a stick-on aquarium sensor that looks like this:
https://www.seachem.com/ammonia-alert.php
I have one in use right now and I use one when first cycling a tank. It monitors free (toxic NH3) ammonia.
So, in answer to your question, I think you could possibly see variation in measured readings during, and after a water change dependent on pH, temperature and the test kit used. But, I'll apply my grey matter to this a little bit more.
JPC
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Aaah, in that case of it stating an update date of this month, I stand corrected - and perhaps some of the content has been updated from when I last looked at this. My apologies. I don't want to poke around in the "fish cupboard" (to retrieve and take a photo of the bottle) as the light is off and they're hopefully sleeping but this might help if you click on the picture to read it better: https://www.swelluk.com/api-tap-water-conditioner/
Hi @fcmf
My brain is in a whirl. But, I think you'll find that the API Tap Water Conditioner bottle simply says that it "Removes chlorine and breaks the chloramine bond". Big deal, eh? So, what about the ammonia that is liberated during this process?
I've had enough for today but will re-visit this tomorrow.
JPC
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In the past, bottles of API Tap Water Conditioner used to say that if chloramine was in the water, an additional product such as Ammo Lock should also be used. The bottle no longer says this, and when I looked up the safety data sheet for Ammo Lock, it says it contains thiosulphate - the chemical that removes chlorine. I wonder if Ammo Lock has been reformulated, which is why Tap Water Conditioner no longer says to add Ammo Lock?
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Sorry - I know this has gone a bit off-topic but, on the chloramine topic, I'm still horrified that I may have inadvertently been exposing my fish to ammonia (since using ATP Tap Water Conditioner in lieu of Seachem Prime or Microbe Lift Extreme). Can someone with sufficient chemistry knowledge tell me whether it's possible that a negative ammonium result post- water change (e.g. while the chloramine bond is being broken) may actually fluctuate and become positive for a bit before becoming negative again? In other words, is it possible that a water change on a Saturday might have a negative ammonium result on the being-discarded old water and a negative result on the replacement/new water after it's been dechlorinated but for that to have been a temporary result when breaking the chloramine bond only for the water to develop ammonia for several days such as Sun-Wed but to rectify itself again by the Thursday?
As for Seachem Prime, my understanding was that it detoxified ammonia/nitrite/nitrate for 24/48 hours. Does this mean that they become toxic again after that?
Sorry if I'm a bit dim here - too many mince pies consumed and possibly affecting my brain cells!
I’m not totally sure I understand the question...
During a water change the waters mix very quickly, and the dechlorinator has done its job within a couple of minutes (ballpark). The amount of ammonia released from the chloramine will be fairly negligible as far as a test kit goes, and the filter will process it fairly rapidly. We’re talking hours rather than days. With an established filter, the fact that the ammonium reverts back to ammonia after a day or two should be a moot point as there won’t be any after that time. Not from chloramine anyway.
I’d be far more concerned about the metals in the water, which will cause lasting issues...
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I’d be far more concerned about the metals in the water, which will cause lasting issues...
Hi @Hampalong
As the 'heavy metals' would be in chelated form if the tap water conditioner contains EDTA, for example, I would expect some metals to be absorbed by plants. I'm thinking of copper, for example. But, in an unplanted tank, I guess they could build up over time. But, some metals would precipitate out as well.
JPC
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I despair - is it likely, therefore, that my move from Seachem Prime (which claims to "bind heavy metals") to API Tap Water Conditioner (which doesn't have such a claim) in mid 2018, plus the gradual die-off of live plants in my aquarium to one almost exclusively silk-planted (also occurring circa mid 2018 and so nothing to absorb any such heavy metals), has likely in tandem caused the health spinal and eye problems in my fish that seemed to become evident in autumn 2018 and which I had in-hindsight-incorrectly been attributing to old age..?
:vcross: :vcross: :vcross:
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I’d be far more concerned about the metals in the water, which will cause lasting issues...
Hi @Hampalong
As the 'heavy metals' would be in chelated form if the tap water conditioner contains EDTA, for example, I would expect some metals to be absorbed by plants. I'm thinking of copper, for example. But, in an unplanted tank, I guess they could build up over time. But, some metals would precipitate out as well.
JPC
I was thinking more of the sudden influx of a relatively much larger amount than usual.
I’ve just found this informational report by DEFRA. It’s quite fascinating actually, if you have the time and the will to read it. It even outlines methods for the removal of radon and uranium.
http://dwi.defra.gov.uk/private-water-supply/installations/Treatment-processes.pdf
Interestingly, chlorination (for disinfection purposes) is a bit haphazard to say the least. “There is no standard for chlorine in the regulations, but excess levels give rise to customer complaints of taste and odour.”
The regulations (not listed here) include official ranges, maximums and minimums for over 40 substances that are or can be found in water. Adjustment of one often affects others, so getting acceptable safe water for humans, never mind fish, can be a bit of a juggling act at times. It’s no wonder they fail occasionally, and peak times and times of fewer staff are the times when that’s most likely.
@fcmf I wish I could say you’re wrong, but you’re very probably right. I live and die by my signature. Water is the most important aspect of keeping fish alive. I’m immune to bad water now, and have been for a few decades, thanks to PolyFilter.
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is it likely, therefore, that my move from Seachem Prime (which claims to "bind heavy metals") to API Tap Water Conditioner (which doesn't have such a claim
API Tap Water Conditioner does bind metals. It contains EDTA. What it doesn't do is 'detoxify' ammonia.
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Hi Folks,
Me again!
I really despair at the fact that a manufacturer can call a product a Tap Water Conditioner knowing that it will not deal with the ammonia produced when it is added to the very water that will then be added to a fish tank. If I was a user of this API product, I would be putting questions to them.
I've just been looking at a bottle of King British De-Chlorinator. On the packaging, it states:
"King British De-Chlorinator makes tap water safe for fish by instantly removing contaminants from the water that cause skin and gill membrane irritation, including chlorine, chloramines, heavy metals and excess ammonia.
King British De-Chlorinator also coats the fish with a protective coating of Aloe vera to help repair the natural slime layer and soothe tissue, which can be damaged as a result of handling/netting and stress."
So, provided that the King British product is not used with labyrinth fish (Anabantids) because of the inclusion of Aloe vera, it may be OK for other fish.
JPC
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Aloe vera is considered to bad for fish. That's why I use API Tap Water Conditioner, because it doesn't contain aloe vera or any other 'slime coat promoter'. I am given to understand that there was a study done on farmed salmon some years ago which showed that aloe vera coats gill membranes.
I think the reason API use that name is because Americans don't use the term dechlorinator. They call all this type of treatment a conditioner regardless of what it actually contains.
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Aloe vera is considered to bad for fish. That's why I use API Tap Water Conditioner, because it doesn't contain aloe vera or any other 'slime coat promoter'. I am given to understand that there was a study done on farmed salmon some years ago which showed that aloe vera coats gill membranes.
I think the reason API use that name is because Americans don't use the term dechlorinator. They call all this type of treatment a conditioner regardless of what it actually contains.
Hi @Sue
OK, many thanks for the feedback. I was aware that Aloe vera interferes with the labyrinth organ as it 'messes up' (technical term :rotfl:) buoyancy. That being the case, I can see why it might interfere with gas exchange through the gills.
So, the King British product is a no-no. But, what do you think about Fritz Complete?
JPC
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Water is the most important aspect of keeping fish alive. I’m immune to bad water now, and have been for a few decades, thanks to PolyFilter.
Hi @Hampalong
There is no doubt that PolyFilter is an excellent product. But, according to Arcadia, the UK importer's website, this is what it removes:
http://www.arcadia-aquatic.com/product/poly-filter/
So, for planted tank owners, the fact that PolyFilter removes iron is cause for concern. It doesn't specify which form(s) of iron it removes - ferrous and/or ferric.
I feel much more comfortable using re-mineralized RO/DI water.
JPC
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I think I'm more confused than ever.
Facts:
The water company adds chloramine to the water.
Any time I do a water test on tap water straight from the tap, it comes out as 0.2-0.4 ppm ammonium NH4.
Any time I do a test on tap water with API Tap Water Conditioner added to it, it immediately comes out as <0.05.
Any time I do a test on the tank, it always comes out as <0.05.
My assumption, therefore, was that the API Tap Water Conditioner was adequately addressing any ammonia issue.
From what I gather you're telling me:
That assumption is incorrect. If chloramine is in the tap water, ammonia is liberated when the chloramine bond is broken. Therefore, it could possibly appear after added to the tank water, depending on other factors going on in the tank (eg PH, temp, how well the filter is coping with processing ammonia), and possibly even might resolve itself by the time of the next water test (and hence why this has never shown up on any water test). So there may be low levels, possibly undetectable by the home testing kit, long-term exposure to which might cause or at least contribute to fish health problems (especially if few/no live plants available to absorb it). ?The same might also go for heavy metals.
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Facts:
The water company adds chloramine to the water.
Any time I do a water test on tap water straight from the tap, it comes out as 0.2-0.4 ppm ammonium NH4.
Any time I do a test on tap water with API Tap Water Conditioner added to it, it immediately comes out as <0.05.
Any time I do a test on the tank, it always comes out as <0.05.
My assumption, therefore, was that the API Tap Water Conditioner was adequately addressing any ammonia issue.
Hi @fcmf
Which 'ammonia' test kit are you using? I notice that you are giving ammonium (NH4+) figures. It is unusual for a test kit to report ammonium only, the more normal being Total Ammonia as I mentioned elsewhere.
EDIT (at 2000h 3/1/2020): Are you, by any chance, using the Seachem Free & Total Ammonia Test Kit? Are you able to check the pH of your tap water before and after adding the API Tap Water Conditioner? I'm keen to help you resolve this. Your earliest reply would be handy.
JPC
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JBL's NH4 test (mg/l or ppm), with options being: <0.05, 0.1, 0.2, 0.4, 0.6, 1, 1.5, 3, 5.
I see from previous posts (one back in Aug 2017 and one in early Dec 2019) that I've done a couple of tests on simple tapwater standing for 24+ hours. The first time resulted in a reading of 0.2, whereas the time resulted in the <0.05 reading. I wonder if this suggests that chloramine is only dosed by the water supplier sometimes such as in the first case and not in the second case. Either way, I've never had a positive ammonium reading when testing for it immediately after dosing API.
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Facts:
The water company adds chloramine to the water.
Any time I do a water test on tap water straight from the tap, it comes out as 0.2-0.4 ppm ammonium NH4.
Any time I do a test on tap water with API Tap Water Conditioner added to it, it immediately comes out as <0.05.
Any time I do a test on the tank, it always comes out as <0.05.
My assumption, therefore, was that the API Tap Water Conditioner was adequately addressing any ammonia issue.
Hi @fcmf
I also use the JBL 'NH4' Test Kit. The accompanying booklet is not much help but, based on the colour chart, I conclude that this test kit uses what is known as the salicylate method. According to the very respectable Hach company, this test method measures total ammonia. Here's the relevant reference:
https://support.hach.com/app/answers/answer_view/a_id/1000858/~/do-the-nessler-and-salicylate-methods-detect-ammonia-or-ammonium%3F-
So, I am rapidly coming to the conclusion that all your 'ammonia' measurements are correct and trustworthy. But, I strongly urge you users of API Tap Water Conditioner (TWC) to contact API to ask some questions that will elicit an answer to the question "Does TWC remove free ammonia and ammonium from tap water that has undergone chloramine treatment"? From my experience, their technical support is good.
I don't think I can offer anything further on this one.
Good luck with API.
JPC
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I don't think I can offer anything further on this one.
Yes, I can. Having added TWC to the tap water, is it necessary to do anything, e.g. stir the water to release any free ammonia before being added to a fish tank? Is this, perhaps, in the TWC instructions?
I'm done!
JPC
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Very helpful all round, JPC - many thanks. Have contacted API UK; will post here once I receive a reply. [If I actually get any sleep tonight, rather than worrying about my fish, I expect I'll be dreaming / having nightmares about ammonium tests!]
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My water board officially uses chlorine most of the time and chloramine occasionally.
According to this short review, TWC doesn’t do anything with the ammonia liberated from chloramine. So if your tank pH is above neutral you’ll have some level of free ammonia.
http://dwi.defra.gov.uk/private-water-supply/installations/Treatment-processes.pdf
PolyFilter is an ingenious creation. It’s designed to absorb excess metals, leaving trace proportions for plants, and has no noticeable effect on them.
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Having added TWC to the tap water, is it necessary to do anything, e.g. stir the water to release any free ammonia before being added to a fish tank?
I always put the drops into the container before filling it with water - I do wonder if that makes a difference. I'll test this out by doing it in reverse order...
EDIT (at 2000h 3/1/2020): Are you, by any chance, using the Seachem Free & Total Ammonia Test Kit? Are you able to check the pH of your tap water before and after adding the API Tap Water Conditioner? I'm keen to help you resolve this. Your earliest reply would be handy.
I only saw this belatedly. As for PH pre- and post- adding API Tap Water Conditioner, I conclude that it's roughly the same. I decided that, rather than do the test, figure out the PH, then re-do it with the TWC, I'd do both alongside one another to compare for any subtle differences. Interestingly, it looked as though PH had gone up slightly with the TWC added but, when I repeated the test for reliability purposes (and because I wondered if there might be an optical illusion with the red and black markings on the different containers and one being newer than the other), the reverse happened. In conclusion, although difficult to decipher actual PH, it's somewhere around 7.5-8.
According to this short review, TWC doesn’t do anything with the ammonia liberated from chloramine. So if your tank pH is above neutral you’ll have some level of free ammonia.
PolyFilter is an ingenious creation. It’s designed to absorb excess metals, leaving trace proportions for plants, and has no noticeable effect on them.
This is very confusing, in light of never having had a reading for ammonium in the tank - the test result has always been a very bright yellow, even with an overnight fatality. I'm also extremely faithful about monitoring water quality and doing water changes every 5-7 days and often an additional interim mini water change to remove snail poo if one has been eating wood and netting out any uneaten food as/when I notice it. The filter is maintained - media squeezed into bucket of being-discarded tank water - at every second main water change.
That aside, my PH is above neutral (which puts it at greater risk for any ammonia presence that might escape my diligent radar) and my water very soft indeed (which makes heavy metals more toxic). I would have thought that the nerite snails might have been adversely affected if any of either ammonia or heavy metals had somehow escaped my faithful monitoring and water dechlorinator respectively.
In terms of a way forward, and in spite of my consistent negative ammonium readings, I've relegated the API TWC to the back of the cupboard, done a second 60% water change with Seachem Prime this week, ordered Arcadia Poly-Filter a couple of days ago, and removed the Seachem Flourish tab from under the plant - although allegedly the copper content in them is of safe levels for invertebrates, it's not a risk I'm prepared to take.
I'll update this once I hear back from API UK.
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API Tap Water Conditioner does not detoxify ammonia. It contains nothing that can can do this according to the safety data sheet. It contains thiosulphate, EDTA and nothing else.
I put the drops in the bucket then run the water in as fast as the tap will do. However, although thiosulphate reacts with chlorine instantly, other people say that it takes half an hour for every single chlorine to come into contact with a thiosulphate so the bucket should be left to stand for half an hour before emptying it into the tank; or an airstone should be run for 5 minutes. Since I use over 10 bucketfuls of water change for my big tank, it would take over 5 hours to refill it. So I fill the bucket at the sink, carry it into the dining room and pour the water into the tank (using a jug as I can't lift a bucket full of water high enough to pour it directly from the bucket) - all of 30 seconds later.
API Ammo Lock contains thiosulphate and aliphatic amines. It removes chlorine and detoxifies ammonia but does not bind metals.
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API Tap Water Conditioner does not detoxify ammonia. It contains nothing that can can do this according to the safety data sheet.
I put the drops in the bucket then run the water in as fast as the tap will do.
Therefore, I am totally perplexed as to how my ammonium test alters so significantly from 0.2-0.4 on tapwater, to <0.05 immediately after API TWC added (or, specifically, tap water onto TWC drops, in the same 'fast filling' manner as Sue describes) and tank water has always been <0.05. I've only ever used this one brand of ammonium/ammonia test as I get refills for it, although I do have water test strips (which are difficult to decipher). I've re-read an e-mail exchange I didn't even recall that I'd had with my water supplier back in 2017, and they confirmed that chloramination definitely takes place in my area (and increasingly so in other areas), and indeed that was what I was treating for, so something isn't tallying up here. Also, even if the test kit were inaccurate, surely there would be signs of ammonia in the fish or snail behaviour. ???
Updated to add: I have done a little experiment. I added the TWC chlorine dosage to the tap water (dropped in after filling the container on this occasion), took a sample for testing, then added the additional drops to TWC chloramination dosage. Interesting - same results of ammonium <0.05, even at the lower chlorine level dosage. ???
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Where on earth do people get half an hour from? Add a few drops of a dye to a bucket as you start filling it. A meth blue treatment for example. It mixes almost instantly. Or put a few drops in a full bucket and give it a quick swish with your hand.
When you’re cycling and you add ammonia to a tank, or if you add bicarbonate to raise pH, you can test after a minute or two and you’ll get the expected result.
:)
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My thoughts exactly. If I watch the bits of limescale from the kettle, they are still swirling round the bucket by the time I start ladling it into the tank.
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PolyFilter is an ingenious creation. It’s designed to absorb excess metals, leaving trace proportions for plants, and has no noticeable effect on them.
Hi @Hampalong
Do you have any figures you have measured that quantify your last sentence? According to the PolyFilter blurb, this filter media removes iron. There's no suggestion that PolyFilter leaves trace proportions for plants. I'd be happy to run a test for iron but it's expensive stuff and I have no need of it as I use RO/DI as you will have gathered. I note your last comment "and has no noticeable effect on them". So, you obviously have planted tanks and find that PolyFilter has no adverse effects on the plants. Is that correct?
I also note that PolyFilter removes "Phosphates (the principal cause of algae in the aquarium)" - according to their blurb. The bit in parentheses is not strictly correct and phosphates are required by plants to the tune of 0.1-1 mg/litre or even higher.
BTW, I did see your correction about Ladybower.
JPC
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I'll update this once I hear back from API UK.
Hi @fcmf
Let's hope we get a useful (detailed?) reply. I'm looking forward to seeing what API say.
JPC
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Hiya everyone been away on holiday and just back thankfully to report no more deaths in my absence. A few barbs do look a bit worse for wear so whatever it was, thinking these guys might have been a bit stronger and although affected, not to the extent of the others. Not sure what their longer term prospects might be though.
@Hampalong, thanks for your response re the Poly-Filter. I actually fill a 100 ltr water butt upstairs, then let gravity fill the tank downstairs through a hose out the window!! So putting a small filter in there for a bit beforehand could do the trick.
@jaypeecee, I use Fluval Water Conditioner which say's it removes Chlorine & Chloramines and Neturalizes metal toxins. I don't like the fact it's got herbal extracts but I could find any that don't when removing both Chlorine and Chloramines?
And I'll throw another question into the mix, when does everyone do their water changes? I mean what time of day, I usually wait till the light has been on a bit so not the spook them? Now I'm having doubts about everything. :-[
About to do a water change now, keeping everything crossed :fishy1:
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Water changes - and anything else which involves disturbing fish - should only be done at least half an hour after the tank lights turn on. It takes fish's eyes that long to adjust to the tank lights.
My main tank's lights come on at 11:30 am and I do water changes straight after lunch. But the betta's tank gets a lot more light being glass topped and the kitchen faces south, so I don't worry about waiting till after the lights come on, I usually do water changes before.
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Hiya everyone been away on holiday and just back thankfully to report no more deaths in my absence.
I use Fluval Water Conditioner which say's it removes Chlorine & Chloramines and Neturalizes metal toxins. I don't like the fact it's got herbal extracts but I could find any that don't when removing both Chlorine and Chloramines?
Glad to read that no more deaths during your absence. :cheers:
Apologies that I've somewhat piggybacked on your thread - I was contemplating splitting it into a separate thread, but your mention of Fluval Water Conditioner actually brings it nicely back on track to your own thread which also chimes with the crux of my own related questions in the intervening time. I know you live in the same part of the world as me and therefore also have chloramines in your water. Fluval Water Conditioner claims to "neutralise chloramines" whereas API Tap Water Conditioner claims to*... "neutralise chloramines" (https://www.apifishcare.com/product.php?p=faqs&id=655) or "remove chloramines" (words on my 118ml bottle) and "detoxifies chloramines" (words in the Directions on my 30ml and 118ml bottles). This is the very issue we're trying to establish - whether indeed it does this or the process of this happening actually just breaks the chloramine bond but the action of this chloramine bond breakage creates ammonia (even although my own water test readings don't show any presence of ammonia from the instant I add tap water to API TWC).
When you have time, it would be worth testing out your own water too - for ammonia/ammonium, directly from the tap and immediately after adding Fluval Water Conditioner, and the tank itself. It might help us figure out what the situation is generally re these products and also in your own case.
[* I'm now beginning to wonder if I'm/we're all going round in circles here and/or I'm losing my marbles. I thought the front of the bottle only stated "breaks the chloramine bond" - but maybe that's what photos of older/other bottles state? Mine definitely does state what I've typed above. In that case, I think I've solved the strange 'problem' - would I be correct in saying that, with this wording, actually API Tap Water Conditioner does indeed address the chloramines issue without the ammonia release? If so, it explains why, when I use it, there's no ammonium reading.]
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@fcmf dechlorinators break the chloramine bond, creating chlorine and ammonia/ammonium. It can’t be done without releasing those two.
@jaypeecee I don’t have that PolyFilter info. Official figures on PolyFilter are very hard to find, if they’re even published at all. All we really have is what’s written on the packaging. I’ve just never heard of any plants having an adverse effect from its use.
It’s actually pre-saturated with trace elements at marine levels. This apparently means it won’t adsorb them unless they’re in excess, although that might not be quite what a freshie plantsman wants to hear...
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I'm now beginning to wonder if I'm/we're all going round in circles here and/or I'm losing my marbles. I thought the front of the bottle only stated "breaks the chloramine bond" - but maybe that's what photos of older/other bottles state? Mine definitely does state what I've typed above. In that case, I think I've solved the strange 'problem' - would I be correct in saying that, with this wording, actually API Tap Water Conditioner does indeed address the chloramines issue without the ammonia release? If so, it explains why, when I use it, there's no ammonium reading.
Hi @fcmf
And that's precisely why we need the all-important reply from API. Only they know what chemistry they're using in TWC. So, only they can provide a definitive answer to this conundrum! Perhaps, they are oxidizing the ammonia to liberate harmless nitrogen gas and water?? In which case, the equation may be:
3O2 + 4NH3 ---> 2N2 + 6H2O
This is only a guess. I'm probably way off the mark!
JPC
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Water changes - and anything else which involves disturbing fish - should only be done at least half an hour after the tank lights turn on. It takes fish's eyes that long to adjust to the tank lights.
Thanks @Sue that's good I do water changes after the lights have been on. :)
Glad to read that no more deaths during your absence. :cheers:
@fcmf, I was a little hasty in my "no deaths" comment, I found a Harlie in the floating plants when doing the water change, don't think it had been there too long :-\
Still think there is something amiss one barb not looking great, breathing really heavily and pretty stationery pointing downwards, and another Harlie isn't looking great either :(
The rest look OK and behaving normally.
When you have time, it would be worth testing out your own water too - for ammonia/ammonium, directly from the tap and immediately after adding Fluval Water Conditioner, and the tank itself. It might help us figure out what the situation is generally re these products and also in your own case.
Tap water, tank water and tap water with fluval added, all hover slightly between 0ppm and 0.25ppm, which is how it's always been, and using the ammonia calculator Sue gave me in one of my very first post suggests ammonia is OK, giving NH3 concentration of 0.0088ppm.
Given I can't see any outward sign of disease, (apart from the rapid breathing) I'm thinking I should just leave them where they are opposed to using the hospital tank?
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Water changes - and anything else which involves disturbing fish - should only be done at least half an hour after the tank lights turn on. It takes fish's eyes that long to adjust to the tank lights.
Actually it only takes a minute or two for fishes eyes to adjust, just like ours. Tank lights should never be switched on until the room lighting has been on for a few minutes, otherwise it’s very painful for them (just like us if you come out of the dark into the sun and don’t close your eyes). And you don’t have to have the lights on to do a water change... :)
In my experience once the damage has been done, moving the fish to good water will not help much.
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I suppose a lot depends on how bright the lights are. In that article he’s using marines as his example, which tend to have very bright lighting. I’ve never known fish to hide up after the lights come on... unless the lights are simply too bright and are hurting their eyes.
Mine see he lights coming on as a cue to come up for food, but then again I would never have a very bright light on a fish tank.
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I was a little hasty in my "no deaths" comment, I found a Harlie in the floating plants when doing the water change, don't think it had been there too long :-\
Still think there is something amiss one barb not looking great, breathing really heavily and pretty stationery pointing downwards, and another Harlie isn't looking great either :(
The rest look OK and behaving normally.
Tap water, tank water and tap water with fluval added, all hover slightly between 0ppm and 0.25ppm, which is how it's always been, and using the ammonia calculator Sue gave me in one of my very first post suggests ammonia is OK, giving NH3 concentration of 0.0088ppm.
Given I can't see any outward sign of disease, (apart from the rapid breathing) I'm thinking I should just leave them where they are opposed to using the hospital tank?
Sorry to read about your harley and that another isn't looking great. I agree that, with no outward sign of disease other than rapid breathing, it's probably best to leave them where they are.
Back in connection with @jaypeepcee's comment in #18 in this thread which precipitated my piggybacking on your thread, These unexplained deaths really got me thinking - particularly as it happened following a water change. I'm wondering if the chloramine level in the tap water was higher than normal. So, although @Lynne W almost certainly treated her tap water with a dechlorinator, it may have removed chlorine but failed to fully remove the ammonia component of chloramine.
, I've had a look at your Fluval Water Conditioner online and indeed I see that it's very similar to the issue I'm talking about re API Tap Water Conditioner - basically it has the same claims with regard to addressing chloramine, you and I both find that our ammonia readings are next-to-none (I found the thread containing the ammonia calculator plus your result, and my own result is below), but apparently in spite of these claims on the product and our own test reading results indicating no ammonia, ammonia is actually released and only an ammonia detoxifier will address this. It seems rather absurd that products such as these are manufactured but wouldn't address this aspect. Therefore, following JPC's very helpful advice, I've contacted API to find out whether the Tap Water Conditioner actually removes free ammonia and ammonium from tap water that has undergone chloramine treatment by the water supplier, and await their response (their 24-hour turnaround mustn't apply to weekends). Realising that the issue was likely the same for you, I've taken the liberty of also contacting Fluval about its Water Conditioner product and with the very same query.
In the meantime, I'd strongly advise you to contact the water supplier, give them your postcode, and ask them if your water supply is treated with chloramine rather than simply chlorine, as you're interested from a fishkeeping perspective. If they reply that it's not, then that eliminates that as a possible explanation for the deaths. If they reply that it is, then I would keep a watchful eye out for the responses I receive from our respective water conditioner manufacturers. If the ammonia-release aspect is not addressed by the products, then another product may have to be used which does detoxify the ammonia.
fcmf's result on ammonia calculator, if assume that level of ammonia was at the top of the range of <0.05 ie 0.05 and PH is at its most extreme high end of 8:
NH-N(NH3-N)+(NH4-N) - NH3+NH4 0.0642, NH3 0.0031
NH(NH3+NH4) - NH3+NH4 0.05, NH3 0.0025
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Tap water, tank water and tap water with fluval added, all hover slightly between 0ppm and 0.25ppm, which is how it's always been, and using the ammonia calculator Sue gave me in one of my very first post suggests ammonia is OK, giving NH3 concentration of 0.0088ppm.
Hi @Lynne W
Hope you had a nice break.
I have a few questions:
1 Which ammonia/ammonium test kit are you using and is it 'in date'?
2 What is the tank temperature?
3 What is the tank pH and what are you using to measure pH?
4 Out of interest, what is your current nitrite concentration?
TIA.
JPC
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Again, dechlorinators cannot remove ammonia from the water. How would they do that? All they can do is break the chloramine bond, and convert free ammonia to ammonium. That’s what those that ‘take care of the resultant ammonia’ do.
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@Hampalong - you've said that you believe that the presence of heavy metals and ammonia may well have led to my elderly fishes' health problems (when I queried whether my move from Seachem Prime to API Tap Water Conditioner may actually have contributed to it, given that the latter does not detoxify ammonia released during the chloramine bond breakage).
On the heavy metals issue, it seems as though the situation wouldn't have been any different if I had stayed with the Seachem Prime product I used to use as both it and the subsequently used API Tap Water Conditioner do "bind heavy metals". As I understand it, you hold the view that these products aren't sufficient and that Poly-Filter is required to get rid of excess metals - is that correct?
On the ammonia/ammonium issue, I have never had a positive ammonium reading from my test kit on the dechloraminated water being added to the tank, or the tank water itself pre- or post- water changes. As I understand it, you are saying that ammonia actually may well have been present (if my water conditioner does not detoxify the ammonia for 24-48hrs, and possibly even if it does), perhaps during the few days that I don't test between water changes - is that correct? Perhaps similar to the heavy metals aspect, you may also be saying that the cumulative effects of tiny amounts of ammonia over time (possibly under the radar of detection from the ammonium test kit) may also have contributed?
I need to straighten out my own understanding of this, as well as it potentially also being of relevance to Lynne (depending on whether or not her water gets chloramine treatment too).
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Realising that the issue was likely the same for you, I've taken the liberty of also contacting Fluval about its Water Conditioner product and with the very same query.
In the meantime, I'd strongly advise you to contact the water supplier, give them your postcode, and ask them if your water supply is treated with chloramine rather than simply chlorine, as you're interested from a fishkeeping perspective. If they reply that it's not, then that eliminates that as a possible explanation for the deaths. If they reply that it is, then I would keep a watchful eye out for the responses I receive from our respective water conditioner manufacturers. If the ammonia-release aspect is not addressed by the products, then another product may have to be used which does detoxify the ammonia.
@fcmf thanks for contacting fluval, I've also contacted the water company but the girl didn't know, at least she's taken my details and going to get someone to come back to me. There is a post code checker on Scottish Water website which will seemingly tell me but it's not working!
@jaypeecee in answer to your questions
I use API Freshwater Master Test Kit for all my readings, and yes they are "in date".
temp is 24.9
ph 7.4 - 7.8
nitrite 0ppm
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@fcmf
My thinking is more along the lines that a full single dose of dechlorinator can deal with most water changes, but occasionally for some people a relatively large amount of something can get through and the single dechlorinator dose isn’t enough. And historically this has been commonest at, let’s say ‘long weekends’. I believe it’s metals but I could be wrong.
I recommend PolyFilter as protection from these occasions (you can tell when they happen by the sudden darkening of the sponge).
The ammonia from chloramine doesn’t seem to show up on tests, and neither does the resultant nitrite, and doesn’t appear to affect the fish at the time(?) so although it is present I think it’s probably negligible, and quickly processed by the nitrifying bacteria.
But tapwater supply can be inconsistent, so who’s to say the levels of metals, or chlorine/chloramine or even ammonia which is in some tapwater, for example might not be just a little more one week than the single dose can manage? Or even something that the dechlorinator doesn’t address? There’s more than chlorine/chloramine and metals that can be in our water occasionally. And if it’s with the fish until it’s waterchanged out again... who’s to say our fish aren’t subjected to chronic levels of stuff and that it doesn’t contribute to their eventual demise and/or death?
My PolyFilter lasts about a year doing 50 gallons per week. Usually it won’t change after the water container is refilled, and sometimes it will go a little bit browner. Occasionally it’ll go a few months worth of browner in one weekend. I wouldn’t be without it now on all my fishes’ tap-water. I should be on commission!
:)
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@fcmf
My PolyFilter lasts about a year doing 50 gallons per week. Usually it won’t change after the water container is refilled, and sometimes it will go a little bit browner. Occasionally it’ll go a few months worth of browner in one weekend. I wouldn’t be without it now on all my fishes’ tap-water. I should be on commission!
:)
I didn't realise it lasted that long, that's interesting.
Yes, you should be on commission. :rotfl:
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Thanks, @Hampalong - that clarification is helpful.
@LynneW - I've had a reply from Fluval as follows (and am still awaiting a reply from API):
Q: I wondered whether Fluval water conditioner removes free ammonia and ammonium from tap water that has undergone chloramine treatment by the water supplier?
A: Yes, Aqua Plus will neutralise ammonia and ammonium from tap water.
Scientists on here may wish to comment. :)
Edited to add [9 Jan] - adding in here, otherwise the thread will become unwieldy with its numerous strands!
API's reply to the same question as above, substituting 'Fluval' for 'API Tap Water Conditioner'.
A: API Tap Water Conditioner only claims it detoxifies chloramines. It's only enough to take care of the amount that is put into your tap water. If you are concerned with Ammonia and Ammonium we would recommend to use API Ammo-lock. This would handle the NH3/NH4, chlorine and chloramines.
Their response seems a bit more 'honest', rather than a carefully crafted choice of verb to evade the actual question. Hope this is helpful for anyone else whose water has chloramines and who has alkaline PH which increases the toxicity of free ammonia and ammonium liberated during the chloramine bond breakage process. Just wish their packaging contained this advice and rationale, so I'll recommend this to them.
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Thanks, @Hampalong - that clarification is helpful.
@LynneW - I've had a reply from Fluval as follows (and am still awaiting a reply from API):
Q: I wondered whether Fluval water conditioner removes free ammonia and ammonium from tap water that has undergone chloramine treatment by the water supplier?
A: Yes, Aqua Plus will neutralise ammonia and ammonium from tap water.
Scientists on here may wish to comment. :)
Q. Will it remove it?
A. Yes it will neutralise it.
I’m no scientist but they’ve done a pretty good job of not answering the question.
In other words it converts ammonia to ammonium.
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I didn't realise it lasted that long, that's interesting.
Yes, you should be on commission. :rotfl:
In a tank it won’t last long (weeks) but on the tapwater we get most weeks one 8”x4” pad will be chocolate brown after a year-ish. I’ll then add a new one and leave the old ones in to eventually get to dark-chocolate brown.
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I believe it’s metals but I could be wrong...I recommend PolyFilter as protection from these occasions (you can tell when they happen by the sudden darkening of the sponge).
Hi @Hampalong
With PolyFilter/Poly Filter/Poly-Filter, darkening (going brown/black) does not indicate the presence of heavy metals. On the contrary, it is more likely to indicate the presence of 'heavy' organics as per this link:
http://www.arcadia-aquatic.com/product/poly-filter/
Three days ago, I contacted Poly-Bio-Marine, Inc. requesting a copy of a study they published way back in Sept '97. The study was looking at the effect of Poly Filter on heavy metals. Interestingly, they refer to it as Poly-Filter on the product packaging as does Arcadia, the UK Importer.
I will keep everyone posted.
JPC
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With PolyFilter/Poly Filter/Poly-Filter, darkening (going brown/black) does not indicate the presence of heavy metals. On the contrary, it is more likely to indicate the presence of 'heavy' organics...
Correct, but in normal usage it tends to absorb more organics than anything else, so brown is the colour it will end up. I’ve occasionally seen a slight greenish tinge (probably ammonia rather than copper), but brown is pretty much the end result.
Arcadia sells it as both PolyFilter and Poly-Filter, presumably due to a packaging error. Underworld sold it as PolyFilter, and so did Poly-Bio-Marine originally (hence the trade mark). Arcadia also sell it in Poly-Bio-Marine packaging but have also used the spelling Poly-Filter on that one. Arcadia are a strange company. They discontinued the worlds best selling fish tank light, the Grolux, and replaced it with a range that wasn’t as good...
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I didn't realise it lasted that long, that's interesting.
Yes, you should be on commission. :rotfl:
In a tank it won’t last long (weeks) but on the tapwater we get most weeks one 8”x4” pad will be chocolate brown after a year-ish. I’ll then add a new one and leave the old ones in to eventually get to dark-chocolate brown.
The water here is very similar to the water I had in Cambridge, especially the high nitrates. I've been using the Pozzani nitrate filter cartridges when running tap water into containers for tank maintenance, which means a fairly slow flow rate. I guess it wouldn't hurt to use a pad for the tap water, especially considering recent conversations about tap water over holiday periods.
I'm not using pads in my tanks, not only because I have so many tanks, but also because I use catappa leaves and other bits in most tanks, and the majority of my gang are prolific poopers, so I can't imagine how many filter pads I'd go through. However, I'm working on the theory that if the water I'm putting into the tanks is of decent quality, and I do regular water changes & poop hoovering, then things will be ok. Just using pads on the tap water would help with that.
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hiya, I've finally had an update from my water company and they've confirmed the disinfection process used at the water treatment works for my area is Chlorination and NOT Chloramination.
The reason for the deaths before New Year remains a mystery but the good new is there hasn't been anymore deaths :D
However, this news from the water company now raises another question. I've always used Fluval Water Conditioner, which has slim coat protector in it and I've read on here that these protectors aren't necessarily a good thing. If Chloramine isn't used in my water should I change to something different as I think I remember you can get products for Chlorination that don't have slime coat?
Is there one anyone would recommend, and is it OK just to change from one to the other at the next water change, or is there any precautions, steps I should take before changing?
Cheers
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API Tap Water Conditioner contains only thiosulphate (removes chlorine) and EDTA (binds metals). It does not contain anything to detoxify ammonia which is why it isn't really suitable for chloramine. And it contains nothing for the slime coat.
There is only one shop I know that sells API Tap Water Conditioner and that is a good half hour drive away, so I get mine on Ebay.
If you decide to get this dechlorinator I would get the 30 ml bottle, then next time get a larger bottle. The dose rate is 1 drop per gallon/3.8 ml or 1 ml per 15 gallons/60 litres. I use a bucket to refill and add 2 drops to 7.6 litres in an 8 litre bucket. I need a dropper to do this and the 30 ml bottle has a dropper lid. All the larger sizes have a cup lid. So buying the 30 ml size will give a dropper-lid bottle, then when it runs out, the bigger size can be used to refill the small bottle.
Don't be tempted to buy the very large bottles. Unless you have a huge tank or a fish room it will pass the expiry date before you've used half of it. The 118 ml bottle treats 6700 litres.
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@Lynne W - you're welcome to have what's left of my API Tap Water Conditioner; I have a 30ml bottle and a little bit left in a 118ml bottle. I've stopped using it since this whole debacle and enlightened discovery that "neutralising" and "removing" chloramines does not actually address the free ammonia and ammonium liberated during the chloramine bond breakage process. This won't be an issue for you as you don't have chloramine in your tapwater, unlike me who does. I hate wasting anything, so this would actually be a favour to me if you were to take it (and it would free up space in my cupboard). If interested, PM me your address and I can pop it off to you.
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Thanks all, I'll try that @fcmf I'll be in touch. :cheers:
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I have to say I am a total Seachem Prime convert.
Hi @fishtales and Everyone,
I just found a few minutes to read about Prime on the Seachem web site. I have to say that it is very informative and I can now see why it should be a very good tap water conditioner. The FAQ section goes into some detail as to its mode of action. Clearly, they do not disclose what the all-important binding agent is in Prime. But, nor do they need to. And they don't want competitors to know. Having said that, if a competitor was sufficiently determined, there is some very sophisticated analytical equipment out there that I suspect would do the job. If you have the odd £500,000 under your mattress for that rainy day!
I have never had cause to use Seachem Prime but, should that occasion arise, I'd be giving it very serious consideration. And, one of the things about Seachem is their technical support, which I have found to be very good indeed. And, no, I am not on commission!
JPC
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It sounded to me like that's what Microbe believe they've done ie copied the recipe, although this info came via MA's store manager rather than directly from the manufacturer.
On the topic of water conditioners dealing with chloramine, it just so happens that a discussion took place elsewhere on this very issue yesterday, and I input my learning from this thread about the free ammonia and ammonium liberated during the chloramine bond breakage process. Several very well-renowned folk in the fishkeeping world, at least one of whom is a professional scientist, helpfully clarified that "the small amount of ammonia released by the dechlorinator breaking the chlorine/ammonia bond should be very rapidly dealt with by the filter and, in any case, is too little to register on a test kit or cause a problem" (which indeed would fit with the fact that my NH4 test always goes from 0.2-0.4 tapwater to <0.05 ppm the instant the tap water conditioner is added), and "between health filter bacteria and the fact most modern water conditioners treat tap water ammonia anyway, the chloramine to ammonia and chlorine issue is usually unimportant. It was really only relevant back when people didn't treat tap water, but instead simply allowed it to 'de gas' overnight." Hopefully this concludes the discussion on the particular issue.
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@fcmf glad you got a resolution, if you want to hang onto your conditioner if your happy to use it now, no worries.
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Thanks, @Lynne W, but I want to honour my promise which was made before the aforementioned discussion had taken place. :D
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Hi Folks,
All I know about Aloe vera and any other so-called protective coating treatments is that they can:
1 Affect the labyrinth organ of Anabantoids, e.g. Gouramis.
2 Affect a fish's gills.
I'm not sure why these coatings are necessary but it's not something I've researched.
JPC
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It doesn’t seem to irritate the fish, so I possibly wouldn’t call it an irritant. However, fish do a great job of producing their own mucus, and don’t need any help. They’ll only lose it if it’s literally wiped off them during very rough handling, which doesn’t usually happen at waterchanges. The concept of adding something to accelerate mucus production, every week when it’s never required at all, is a strange one to me.
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I have seen numerous reports that stress effects the slime coat of a fish. I presume the thinking behind having it in a water conditioner is that water changes may be stressful to fish. So the aiding of a slime coat is to combat this. It makes sense to me.
Water changes with good water shouldn’t be stressful to fish, but back in the 80s when Aloe vera was first added, tapwater quality wasn’t always as good, so stressed fish were always a possibility...