Author Topic: Sudden unexplained Barb deaths [+ general disc'n about water, conditioner, etc.] (Read 14958 times) 86 replies

fcmf · « **Reply #20 on:** December 30, 2019, 11:01:08 PM »

Aaah, in that case of it stating an update date of this month, I stand corrected - and perhaps some of the content has been updated from when I last looked at this. My apologies. I don't want to poke around in the "fish cupboard" (to retrieve and take a photo of the bottle) as the light is off and they're hopefully sleeping but this might help if you click on the picture to read it better: https://www.swelluk.com/api-tap-water-conditioner/

Following this discussion https://forums.thinkfish.co.uk/fishtank-filtration-and-cycling/water-conditioner-some-queries/msg35270/#msg35270, I check the ammonia levels in the tank both pre- and post- water changes and they've always been fine despite definitely having chloramine added to the water supply.

This might also be of interest to folk re the MA's product: https://forums.thinkfish.co.uk/general-fishkeeping-chat/think-fish-keepers-daily-news/msg40274/#msg40274

[Edited to add: my ?browser shows the update date of that article as 15 Feb 2018, not 4 Dec 2019.]

Matt · « **Reply #21 on:** December 31, 2019, 05:30:53 AM »

Given recent discussions on the wider forum. There's a few question I have about all this... here goes...

The website link for testing dechlotinator seems to suggest the best products for treating chlorine and chloramine without doing anything else (given our passion on here for not adding additional chemicals unless neccessary) are the ammonia "treatments".

1) can someone explain the chemistry of this very simply to a chemistry dunce?

2) will the function of binding heavy metals significantly affect fertilisation regimes? I know your supposed to dose ferts the day after water change day, but that is too much for me to remember... young family and all that

3) I looked at a few of the products most of which I'm not familiar with e.g. Seachems Amguard.which says dosage level is 5ml per 200litres. But this is for ammonia removal -is it the same dosage for chlorine - they don't mention this function, are these products as effective as dechlorinator?

4) the Seachem site also states "Unlike competing products, AmGuard™ converts it into a safe, non-toxic form that is readily removed by the tank’s biofilter. It does not alter pH". So
A) presumably most alter on which is a bad thing?
B) presume it converts it to nitrite so also a bad thing?

5) having recently won a bottle of microbe lift dechlorinator, I can visibly see the gasing off of the chlorine when it is added to the bucket and assume this is a good sign?

6] How do a assess a product that's not listed in a similar fashion e.g.
https://seachem.co.uk/product/seachem-safe-fsw-50g/
7) rollup question! Should I be using ammonia treatment instead of dechlotinator?

Sue · « **Reply #22 on:** December 31, 2019, 10:08:32 AM »

The bottle of API Tap Water Conditioner does state 1 drop per gallon to treat chlorine and 3 drops per gallon to treat chloramine. But it does not detoxify the ammonia part of chloramine, you have to use another product to do that.

I have found a website saying that all "ammonia detoxifiers" are just snake oil. They don't work, they are just something to make fish keepers think that are keeping their fish safe.

To answer Matt's questions - but in no particular order:

The chemical that removes chlorine (thiosulphate) turns it into chloride which does not harm fish or micro-organisms. Chlorine shouldn't gas off; if you see that, it must be something else going on. Unless microbe lift use something else. Does the bottle have a list of ingredients?

The chemical that removes metals (EDTA) binds them in a metal complex. My chemistry research was on this type of chemical, and specifically binding cobalt. I don't think there is much EDTA in dechlorinators; not enough to remove every scrap of added fertiliser metals, but enough to reduce the amount free in the water.

I have not used anything but API Tap Water Conditioner for years so I have no idea what other brands claim. But when a product says it removes chlorine, that includes the chlorine half of chloramine. I do not know why API TWC says to use 3 times more for chloramine.
AmGuard says on the bottle that it removes ammonia, chlorine and chloramine. But the website does not say what's in it. API Ammo Lock does say it contains aliphatic amines and thiosulphate, so that definitely does both.
AmGuard just means that whatever it turns ammonia into, the ammonia can still be used by the filter bacteria in exactly the same way as the ammonia made by the fish. It's just hype to make you think AmGuard does something special while it's actually the bacteria doing all the work. AmGuard just temporarily binds the ammonia till the bacteria have removed it.

You should always use a dechlorinator. If the water company uses chloramine, you should also use an ammonia detoxifier. Most products do both. But most products also contain a 'slime coat promoter'.
If you use a product which only detoxifies ammonia, you'll still have chlorine in the water.

fcmf · « **Reply #23 on:** December 31, 2019, 11:15:17 AM »

Quote from: Sue on December 31, 2019, 10:08:32 AM

The chemical that removes chlorine (thiosulphate) turns it into chloride which does not harm fish or micro-organisms. Chlorine shouldn't gas off; if you see that, it must be something else going on. Unless microbe lift use something else. Does the bottle have a list of ingredients?

See list of ingredients at:

Quote from: fcmf on December 30, 2019, 11:01:08 PM

This might also be of interest to folk re the MA's product: https://forums.thinkfish.co.uk/general-fishkeeping-chat/think-fish-keepers-daily-news/msg40274/#msg40274

Quote from: Sue on December 31, 2019, 10:08:32 AM

You should always use a dechlorinator. If the water company uses chloramine, you should also use an ammonia detoxifier.

, even although

Quote from: fcmf on December 30, 2019, 11:01:08 PM

Following this discussion https://forums.thinkfish.co.uk/fishtank-filtration-and-cycling/water-conditioner-some-queries/msg35270/#msg35270, I check the ammonia levels in the tank both pre- and post- water changes and they've always been fine despite definitely having chloramine added to the water supply.

Hampalong · « **Reply #24 on:** December 31, 2019, 01:32:49 PM »

Ammonia detoxifiers/‘removers’ all do the same thing. They convert free ammonia (NH3) into ammonium (NH4+). That’s all they do. Filter bacteria don’t care what form it’s in, it’s all the same to them.

I think some cases can be averted by a larger dose of a dechlorinator. BTW the symptoms of a bad batch of tapwater are not the symptoms of ammonia or chlorine poisoning. Survivors often show ongoing illness and weakness, and never fully recover. I had a tank of Satanoperca take a whole year to die as the result of one bank holiday water change...

fcmf · « **Reply #25 on:** December 31, 2019, 02:01:49 PM »

Quote from: Hampalong on December 31, 2019, 01:32:49 PM

I think some cases can be averted by a larger dose of a dechlorinator. BTW the symptoms of a bad batch of tapwater are not the symptoms of ammonia or chlorine poisoning. Survivors often show ongoing illness and weakness, and never fully recover. I had a tank of Satanoperca take a whole year to die as the result of one bank holiday water change...

I feel almost light-headed... In that case, I'm wondering if what I was attributing to part of the ageing process in my fish may actually have been caused by the tap water conditioner I was using. Starting its use https://forums.thinkfish.co.uk/fishtank-filtration-and-cycling/api-tap-water-conditioner-in-praise-of/msg41663/#msg41663 does seem to coincide with when I first started noticing changes in my fish https://forums.thinkfish.co.uk/fish-health/fish-health-in-my-tank/20/ which ultimately I put down to age.

There will be occasions when I haven't / been scrupulous about testing ammonia (eg didn't wait the full 15mins to see if the yellow actually turned green) and so it's possible on those occasions that there may actually have been some presence of ammonia in some newly dechlorinated water that therefore "slipped through the net" - although every ammonia reading has been fine, would be typical lack of luck in my case that on the occasions I may have been less scupulous, this has happened and may ultimately have led to my elderly fish's health conditions...

Edited to add: I do have a mini bottle of Seachem Prime for emergency use in the event of ever having ammonia. The Limpopo sand also arrived today by 1st class mail. I've been able to enlist some help with a water change and have dosed with Prime (as well as added some Limpopo sand) - think best order some more of this for use from now on!!!

Sue · « **Reply #26 on:** December 31, 2019, 03:41:58 PM »

The reason I won't use Prime is because they refuse to say what's in it. The fewer things I add to my tank, the better!

fcmf · « **Reply #27 on:** January 01, 2020, 05:31:36 PM »

Sorry - I know this has gone a bit off-topic but, on the chloramine topic, I'm still horrified that I may have inadvertently been exposing my fish to ammonia (since using ATP Tap Water Conditioner in lieu of Seachem Prime or Microbe Lift Extreme). Can someone with sufficient chemistry knowledge tell me whether it's possible that a negative ammonium result post- water change (e.g. while the chloramine bond is being broken) may actually fluctuate and become positive for a bit before becoming negative again? In other words, is it possible that a water change on a Saturday might have a negative ammonium result on the being-discarded old water and a negative result on the replacement/new water after it's been dechlorinated but for that to have been a temporary result when breaking the chloramine bond only for the water to develop ammonia for several days such as Sun-Wed but to rectify itself again by the Thursday?

As for Seachem Prime, my understanding was that it detoxified ammonia/nitrite/nitrate for 24/48 hours. Does this mean that they become toxic again after that?

Sorry if I'm a bit dim here - too many mince pies consumed and possibly affecting my brain cells!

jaypeecee · « **Reply #28 on:** January 01, 2020, 06:59:52 PM »

Quote from: Sue on December 31, 2019, 10:08:32 AM

I have found a website saying that all "ammonia detoxifiers" are just snake oil. They don't work, they are just something to make fish keepers think that are keeping their fish safe.

Hi Everyone,

I suspect that "ammonia detoxifiers" simply convert toxic ammonia (NH₃) to non-toxic ammonium (NH₄⁺) by reducing pH. So, you could easily check if my hypothesis is correct. Of course, that is nothing but pulling the wool over the customers' eyes - if I'm correct. But, here's a product that looks interesting:

https://fritzaquatics.com/products/fritz-complete

Note the comment about pH. I have used Fritz products before (https://fritzaquatics.com/products/fritzzyme-turbostart-700-freshwater) without success. But they have a good reputation, it would appear.

I'll be interested in further developments. As I don't use tap water for fishkeeping, consider me to be a mere spectator!

JPC

jaypeecee · « **Reply #29 on:** January 01, 2020, 07:47:36 PM »

Quote from: fcmf on January 01, 2020, 05:31:36 PM

Can someone with sufficient chemistry knowledge tell me whether it's possible that a negative ammonium result post- water change (e.g. while the chloramine bond is being broken) may actually fluctuate and become positive for a bit before becoming negative again? In other words, is it possible that a water change on a Saturday might have a negative ammonium result on the being-discarded old water and a negative result on the replacement/new water after it's been dechlorinated but for that to have been a temporary result when breaking the chloramine bond only for the water to develop ammonia for several days such as Sun-Wed but to rectify itself again by the Thursday?

Hi @fcmf

Firstly, we need to get some terminology correct. 'Ammonia' can take two forms. One is ammonium (NH₄⁺) and this is non-toxic. Then, there is free ammonia (NH₃) which is a gas and this is the toxic form. The two forms can exist separately or in combination according to the water pH and temperature. Most aquarium test kits appear to measure the total ammonia, i.e. ammonium and free ammonia combined. Seachem, however, produce a stick-on aquarium sensor that looks like this:

https://www.seachem.com/ammonia-alert.php

I have one in use right now and I use one when first cycling a tank. It monitors free (toxic NH₃) ammonia.

So, in answer to your question, I think you could possibly see variation in measured readings during, and after a water change dependent on pH, temperature and the test kit used. But, I'll apply my grey matter to this a little bit more.

JPC

jaypeecee · « **Reply #30 on:** January 01, 2020, 08:26:58 PM »

Quote from: fcmf on December 30, 2019, 11:01:08 PM

Aaah, in that case of it stating an update date of this month, I stand corrected - and perhaps some of the content has been updated from when I last looked at this. My apologies. I don't want to poke around in the "fish cupboard" (to retrieve and take a photo of the bottle) as the light is off and they're hopefully sleeping but this might help if you click on the picture to read it better: https://www.swelluk.com/api-tap-water-conditioner/

Hi @fcmf

My brain is in a whirl. But, I think you'll find that the API Tap Water Conditioner bottle simply says that it "Removes chlorine and breaks the chloramine bond". Big deal, eh? So, what about the ammonia that is liberated during this process?

I've had enough for today but will re-visit this tomorrow.

JPC

Sue · « **Reply #31 on:** January 01, 2020, 09:51:19 PM »

In the past, bottles of API Tap Water Conditioner used to say that if chloramine was in the water, an additional product such as Ammo Lock should also be used. The bottle no longer says this, and when I looked up the safety data sheet for Ammo Lock, it says it contains thiosulphate - the chemical that removes chlorine. I wonder if Ammo Lock has been reformulated, which is why Tap Water Conditioner no longer says to add Ammo Lock?

Hampalong · « **Reply #32 on:** January 02, 2020, 04:06:41 AM »

Quote from: fcmf on January 01, 2020, 05:31:36 PM

Sorry - I know this has gone a bit off-topic but, on the chloramine topic, I'm still horrified that I may have inadvertently been exposing my fish to ammonia (since using ATP Tap Water Conditioner in lieu of Seachem Prime or Microbe Lift Extreme). Can someone with sufficient chemistry knowledge tell me whether it's possible that a negative ammonium result post- water change (e.g. while the chloramine bond is being broken) may actually fluctuate and become positive for a bit before becoming negative again? In other words, is it possible that a water change on a Saturday might have a negative ammonium result on the being-discarded old water and a negative result on the replacement/new water after it's been dechlorinated but for that to have been a temporary result when breaking the chloramine bond only for the water to develop ammonia for several days such as Sun-Wed but to rectify itself again by the Thursday?

As for Seachem Prime, my understanding was that it detoxified ammonia/nitrite/nitrate for 24/48 hours. Does this mean that they become toxic again after that?

Sorry if I'm a bit dim here - too many mince pies consumed and possibly affecting my brain cells!

I’m not totally sure I understand the question...

During a water change the waters mix very quickly, and the dechlorinator has done its job within a couple of minutes (ballpark). The amount of ammonia released from the chloramine will be fairly negligible as far as a test kit goes, and the filter will process it fairly rapidly. We’re talking hours rather than days. With an established filter, the fact that the ammonium reverts back to ammonia after a day or two should be a moot point as there won’t be any after that time. Not from chloramine anyway.
I’d be far more concerned about the metals in the water, which will cause lasting issues...

jaypeecee · « **Reply #33 on:** January 02, 2020, 12:57:15 PM »

Quote from: Hampalong on January 02, 2020, 04:06:41 AM

I’d be far more concerned about the metals in the water, which will cause lasting issues...

Hi @Hampalong

As the 'heavy metals' would be in chelated form if the tap water conditioner contains EDTA, for example, I would expect some metals to be absorbed by plants. I'm thinking of copper, for example. But, in an unplanted tank, I guess they could build up over time. But, some metals would precipitate out as well.

JPC

fcmf · « **Reply #34 on:** January 02, 2020, 02:18:36 PM »

I despair - is it likely, therefore, that my move from Seachem Prime (which claims to "bind heavy metals") to API Tap Water Conditioner (which doesn't have such a claim) in mid 2018, plus the gradual die-off of live plants in my aquarium to one almost exclusively silk-planted (also occurring circa mid 2018 and so nothing to absorb any such heavy metals), has likely in tandem caused the health spinal and eye problems in my fish that seemed to become evident in autumn 2018 and which I had in-hindsight-incorrectly been attributing to old age..?

Hampalong · « **Reply #35 on:** January 02, 2020, 03:59:46 PM »

Quote from: jaypeecee on January 02, 2020, 12:57:15 PM

Quote from: Hampalong on January 02, 2020, 04:06:41 AM
I’d be far more concerned about the metals in the water, which will cause lasting issues...

Hi @Hampalong

As the 'heavy metals' would be in chelated form if the tap water conditioner contains EDTA, for example, I would expect some metals to be absorbed by plants. I'm thinking of copper, for example. But, in an unplanted tank, I guess they could build up over time. But, some metals would precipitate out as well.

JPC

I was thinking more of the sudden influx of a relatively much larger amount than usual.

I’ve just found this informational report by DEFRA. It’s quite fascinating actually, if you have the time and the will to read it. It even outlines methods for the removal of radon and uranium.

http://dwi.defra.gov.uk/private-water-supply/installations/Treatment-processes.pdf

Interestingly, chlorination (for disinfection purposes) is a bit haphazard to say the least. “There is no standard for chlorine in the regulations, but excess levels give rise to customer complaints of taste and odour.”

The regulations (not listed here) include official ranges, maximums and minimums for over 40 substances that are or can be found in water. Adjustment of one often affects others, so getting acceptable safe water for humans, never mind fish, can be a bit of a juggling act at times. It’s no wonder they fail occasionally, and peak times and times of fewer staff are the times when that’s most likely.

@fcmf I wish I could say you’re wrong, but you’re very probably right. I live and die by my signature. Water is the most important aspect of keeping fish alive. I’m immune to bad water now, and have been for a few decades, thanks to PolyFilter.

Sue · « **Reply #36 on:** January 02, 2020, 04:49:12 PM »

Quote from: fcmf on January 02, 2020, 02:18:36 PM

is it likely, therefore, that my move from Seachem Prime (which claims to "bind heavy metals") to API Tap Water Conditioner (which doesn't have such a claim

API Tap Water Conditioner does bind metals. It contains EDTA. What it doesn't do is 'detoxify' ammonia.

jaypeecee · « **Reply #37 on:** January 02, 2020, 11:19:18 PM »

Hi Folks,

Me again!

I really despair at the fact that a manufacturer can call a product a Tap Water Conditioner knowing that it will not deal with the ammonia produced when it is added to the very water that will then be added to a fish tank. If I was a user of this API product, I would be putting questions to them.

I've just been looking at a bottle of King British De-Chlorinator. On the packaging, it states:

"King British De-Chlorinator makes tap water safe for fish by instantly removing contaminants from the water that cause skin and gill membrane irritation, including chlorine, chloramines, heavy metals and excess ammonia.

King British De-Chlorinator also coats the fish with a protective coating of Aloe vera to help repair the natural slime layer and soothe tissue, which can be damaged as a result of handling/netting and stress."

So, provided that the King British product is not used with labyrinth fish (Anabantids) because of the inclusion of Aloe vera, it may be OK for other fish.

JPC

Sue · « **Reply #38 on:** January 03, 2020, 12:04:58 PM »

Aloe vera is considered to bad for fish. That's why I use API Tap Water Conditioner, because it doesn't contain aloe vera or any other 'slime coat promoter'. I am given to understand that there was a study done on farmed salmon some years ago which showed that aloe vera coats gill membranes.

I think the reason API use that name is because Americans don't use the term dechlorinator. They call all this type of treatment a conditioner regardless of what it actually contains.

jaypeecee · « **Reply #39 on:** January 03, 2020, 12:38:32 PM »

Quote from: Sue on January 03, 2020, 12:04:58 PM

Aloe vera is considered to bad for fish. That's why I use API Tap Water Conditioner, because it doesn't contain aloe vera or any other 'slime coat promoter'. I am given to understand that there was a study done on farmed salmon some years ago which showed that aloe vera coats gill membranes.

I think the reason API use that name is because Americans don't use the term dechlorinator. They call all this type of treatment a conditioner regardless of what it actually contains.

Hi @Sue

OK, many thanks for the feedback. I was aware that Aloe vera interferes with the labyrinth organ as it 'messes up' (technical term

) buoyancy. That being the case, I can see why it might interfere with gas exchange through the gills.

So, the King British product is a no-no. But, what do you think about Fritz Complete?

JPC

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Sudden Unexplained Barb Deaths [+ General Disc'n About Water, Conditioner, Etc.]

Sudden Unexplained Barb Deaths [+ General Disc'n About Water, Conditioner, Etc.]

Author Topic: Sudden unexplained Barb deaths [+ general disc'n about water, conditioner, etc.] (Read 14958 times) 86 replies

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