Author Topic: Lump on Nannacara and Camallanus Worms (Read 15725 times) 22 replies

Sue · « **on:** January 07, 2015, 07:52:58 PM »

I bought a trio of Nannacara anomala a few months ago, though I suspected after a couple of weeks that I actually have 2m 1f.

On Friday last week, I noticed a tiny red lump protruding from the dominant male's anus; it looked as though he was about to pass some faeces. We went away first thing on Saturday, returning late on Sunday. When I saw the fish on Monday morning, I panicked and moved him into the QT.

Below are photos of him now, Wednesday evening.

Does anyone know what on earth it is? The lump is now the size of a petit pois.
Is it infectious? A parasite, a blockage, a prolapsed intestine?

And what do I do, keep him in the QT or put him down?

I have never seen anything like this before.

And I now think I definitely got 2 males. In the three days the dominant male has been in the QT, the other has started growing fin extensions and turning blue, so I can't realistically put the one in the QT back in the main tank........

fishcake76 · « **Reply #1 on:** January 07, 2015, 09:24:41 PM »

Hi Sue,

It's comforting to know that even pros come up against things they cant fathom sometimes!!!

It may be of little or no use but if you re-read this thread, the photos of my Fishlopedia pages on lumps may shed some light or at least point you in the right direction.

I hope he's ok!

FC76

Sue · « **Reply #2 on:** January 08, 2015, 09:40:26 AM »

Hmmm, the site in the link says I have to enter two symptoms and he only has one $:-\$

Apart from the day I put him in the QT when he hid between the two silk plant bases, he has been behaving normally. Though this morning, the lump looks a bit different, only because I want a good look he is swimming across the back of the tank where I can't see properly. How do fish know when to behave awkwardly

5 mins later.....

Got a good look. People of a nervous disposition, stop reading now.

The lump is maybe a tad smaller, though that might be imagination. As you can see in the middle pic above, the lump is bulging out towards his left side. Sticking out to his right is what looks like a piece of poo; it's coming out of the side of the lump.
He has had one small pellet to eat on Tuesday as references to prolapsed rectum say to fast the fish and it may go back in. The 'poo' is dark red, but I did feed them bloodworm when I got home on Sunday (and it was too late to have a good look at the fish) and I haven't seen him poo since he's been in the QT which is bare bottomed so any poo should be obvious.
Or is it a parasitic infection? There are references to intestinal worms causing red lumps due to the parasites making the intestines bleed. I have seen no evidence of camallanus worms (and I have been looking for them since the two apistos that died were badly infested) though I am well aware that camallanus worms are not the only intestinal parasites.

I can but wait and see. If it's a prolapse it could well go back inside. If it's parasitic worms, he'll get worse.
But I now do have another problem as one of the female Nannacara is now definitely a male. When the one in the QT was in the main tank, he was dominant and the other, female-ish one was subdominant. Now I've removed the dominant male, he is developing. I can't have 2 males and one female in the tank. Seriously Fish says "If there is more than one male in a tank smaller than 48″, the subdominant male may take on the guise of a female" imlpying that a tank needs to be bigger than 48 inches for 2 males - and mine is 42 inches

Richard W · « **Reply #3 on:** January 08, 2015, 10:06:25 AM »

Is it possible this is natural, as cichlids I believe develop a "genital papilla" when in breeding mood? Some species are said to be unsexable except by the shape of the papilla. This might be nothing like what you have but may be worth further investigation.

Sue · « **Reply #4 on:** January 08, 2015, 10:36:24 AM »

That thought did occur to me on Friday when there was just a slight red bump in the region of his anus - though then it looked more like a red version of a female Bolivian ram's vent than the male's. I had a pair of Bolivian's breed in my tank a few years ago so I know just what their vents are like!

I have just googled images of breeding Nannacara anomala and none of the images look anything like this lump, unfortunately. I just wish they did.

The female in the main tank is being chased by the subdominat male and is showing definite female breeding colouration.......

Fiona · « **Reply #5 on:** January 08, 2015, 11:32:36 AM »

I don't know if this'll help Sue but when one of my Endlers had drospy and before I euthanised it, it had similar bulges in a couple of places along it's abdomen and it was it's intestines protruding through the abdominal muscles, so maybe that is a prolapsed bowel. (and yes I did dissect it because I wanted to know what was going on inside it)

Can you rehome him somewhere when he recovers?

Sue · « **Reply #6 on:** January 08, 2015, 02:20:17 PM »

This is the reason that half of me hopes he doesn't make it $:-\$

If he does make a full recovery, I will probably ask the shop if they'll swap him for another female.

Fiona · « **Reply #7 on:** January 08, 2015, 07:12:17 PM »

Quote from: Sue on January 08, 2015, 02:20:17 PM

This is the reason that half of me hopes he doesn't make it $:-\$

Sad times but I know what you mean, I felt a bit like that about our coloured Indian Glass fish (now the colour has gone from the 3 dyed ones I've got quite fond of them and their HUGE googly eyes)

Well lets hope he gets better AND that the shop will take him back. Fingers and toes crossed.

Sue · « **Reply #8 on:** January 10, 2015, 10:45:54 AM »

Just an update.

The Nannacara was lying on his side in the QT this morning so I put him down.

And I might know what was wrong now.
A couple of months ago I had a pair of apistogramma die from camallanus worm. I did treat the tank before getting the nannacaras but last night I noticed the female nannacara had worms protruding from her anus. She and the second male are now in the QT being treated. I have also treated the main tank.
I think the worms arrived with the peacock gudgeons. They were looking very thin and three of them did die within a couple of weeks of purchase. So I took the decision to put them down as well.

The rest of the fish in the main tank are showing no signs. They all look nice and plump; there are no worms visible. But I have still treated the tank as a precautionary measure. But it is interesting that all the fish that have had worms spend a lot of their time on the bottom of the tank. The only bottom fish left are the chain loaches, and they are not showing any symptoms.

And somehow the last amano shrimp is still alive despite me adding wormer plus a couple of months ago and last evening.

Richard W · « **Reply #9 on:** January 10, 2015, 11:25:58 AM »

It's not surprising the bottom feeders are infected. The normal life cycle of the worm involves a copepod as an intermediate host, but in an aquarium fish are usually infected by picking up eggs in the faeces of an already infected fish. Faeces naturally goes to the bottom and so that's where the eggs will be. When fish feed on the bottom, it's easy to see how they could pick up eggs at the same time.

Sue, what is the treatment you are using?

I hope you don't still buy fish from the shop where you think the infection originated .............

Sue · « **Reply #10 on:** January 10, 2015, 12:20:07 PM »

I'm using Kusuri Wormer Plus. When I noticed the first batch of worms I did some research on-line and this seemed to be the one with the best results, though not guaranteed.

I bought 5 peacock gudgeons from my nearest MA, a shop that I know other people won't use because of the manager. Three of the five died within a couple of weeks. The remaining 2 females always had two separate red things protruding from what looked like the flesh rather than the anus, and both were the same so I initially discounted this as being worms.
I got some apistos from another shop; these were bred by a customer not a commercial breeder so there is the chance they were infected when the shop took them. But if the gudgeons were the source of worms, the apistos could have caught them in my tank as it was four months before I noticed the worms.
I bought the nannacara from the same shop as the apistos. It took two months for the worms to become visible, though I have been on the look out so I may have spotted them earlier than with the apsitos.
My reading suggests it takes around a month between the fish becoming infected and the female worms growing big enough to breed, which is when they show at the anus. Unless this actually takes longer than a month, it does suggest the fish became infected in my tank $:-\$

The gudgeons had begun to look emaciated even though they were feeding well - a symptom of intestinal parasites. This is why I took the decision to euthanase them.

I wonder why the dwarf chain loaches are showing no signs. Yet.

Sue · « **Reply #11 on:** January 16, 2015, 07:29:02 PM »

I don't know what to do $:-\$

In the last two days I have put down the two remaining Nannacara as they both still had camallanus worms despite two doses of Kusuri Wormer Plus. And my male honey gourami as he had the worms too. And the remaining five rice fish as one of them had red worms protruding form the anus - and they came form the same shop as the Nannacara.

I now have:
12 Microdevario kubotai - they won't stay still long enough to see if they have worms
5 rather old green neon tetras, which will stay still and seem to be OK
5 ember tetras, which also seem to be OK
A female honey gourami which is showing no signs at the moment
3 dwarf chain loaches, which are also showing no signs
2 male endlers, which also look OK.
And an amano shrimp which has somehow survived the medication.

The wormer plus med obviously has not worked. The active ingredient is flubendazole. Sera Nematol seems to have mixed results. The one med that everyone swears by is levamisole which is not available in the UK. But I'm also coming across references to the worms become drug resistant.

Do I keep my fingers crossed that the fish I have left are OK?
Do I put down every fish in the tank, clean it out then recycle?

I just don't know what to do...........

fishcake76 · « **Reply #12 on:** January 16, 2015, 08:41:52 PM »

I'm really sorry to hear of your situation and the tough decisions you've had to make.

I would be inclined to give the remaining fish a little longer and hope that because they have not yet shown signs they have either managed to not become infected or that the treatment has worked and any infections have been cured.

The fact that the fish you put down were the ones with obvious infection hopefully means that they were just too heavily infected to be cured.

I think you should give them a couple of weeks of close inspection and see if any further symptoms occur.

Fingers crossed for you.

FC76

Sue · « **Reply #13 on:** January 16, 2015, 09:12:34 PM »

I'm going to carry on with the wormer plus as it says it can be dosed every 4 days. But I'll hold off getting more fish for a while.

The tank looks so empty now as it's 188 litres $:-\$

Richard W · « **Reply #14 on:** January 17, 2015, 08:09:34 AM »

I'm not too surprised that the med hasn't been that effective. After all, it is in the water and the worms are already in the intestines, which means that they won't be exposed to that much of the med, probably not enough to kill them quickly. The literature I have suggests that "medicated food" is the best treatment, which makes sense though I have no idea if that is available here, I haven't seen any. The same source gives the alternative as "long term" bath immersion and so I'd keep the treatment going as long as possible. It should greatly reduce the chance of healthy fish getting infected at least.

I've come to the conclusion over time that once fish are showing major signs of infection, especially internal, there is often very little that can be done in practice.

I'm also appreciating more that I have a number of smaller tanks rather than one or two big ones, at least if I do get an infection it should only affect a comparatively small percentage of my fish. My big tank envy is going down

Sue · « **Reply #15 on:** January 17, 2015, 10:12:07 AM »

I have ordered some Sera Nematol, what looks like the last bottle in the UK available on line

.

I have read that if one fish is showing signs, all the other fish in the tank are already infected. I have been using a separate bucket and siphon tube since I saw the first worms, and as I always cleaned this tank last, anything in the cleaning equipment should have died off between water changes as the eggs and crustaceans carrying the worms should have been killed as the equipment dried out. I hope.

Fiona · « **Reply #16 on:** January 19, 2015, 09:13:02 PM »

I'm so sorry to hear this Sue. Surely MA has to admit to some responsibility to this?

Sue · « **Reply #17 on:** January 20, 2015, 10:40:40 AM »

It depends on which fish actually brought the worms in. Was it the peacock gudgeons form MA or was the apistos from Aquatic Finatic? I am debating phoning the latter as long as I can speak to one particular person. He would know whether he has had any other reports of worms, or indeed if any fish in the shop have obvious signs.
I do wonder about the apistos as they were bred by another customer.......

Sue · « **Reply #18 on:** January 23, 2015, 12:20:39 PM »

I received the Sera Nematol on Tuesday and added it to the tank on Wednesday. The instructions state that "catfish, loaches and fish fry within the first days of their life may react sensitive. Nematol is not tolerated by invertebrates". I have had two more casualties, I think as a result of adding nematol. I found the female honey gourami dead on the bottom of the tank the day after adding it - and I do know that anabatids can respond badly to some additives, and nematol is oily. And my amano shrimp died too, unsurprisingly. However, despite the warning, all three loaches are behaving normally.

The instructions say to add the nematol and after 2 days to do an 80% water change. Then repeat in three weeks to kill the larvae that have hatched after the first dose.

I have spent this morning doing an 80% water change on a 188 litre tank. 12 x 12 litre buckets out, and 21 x 7.5 ish litre buckets back in. The slowest part was waiting for the kettle to boil 20 times. Because there was so little water left in the tank, I had to get the water to roughly the same temp, though the last bucket to go in was just cold water - at this time of year tap water is 7^oC, I measured it.

The gourami that died yesterday showed no sign of worms, which have been visible hanging from the anus of the fish that did have worms after death. The green neons and ember tetras do hang motionless for a while, and they have no signs either. The microdevario and endlers won't stay still to see and the loaches rest on things so I can't see with them either.

I am very relieved about the loaches, I bought them on 30 June 2007 and have become quite attached to them. And it was just a matter of time for the amano shrimp - he was the last one from a batch I bought on 18 February 2009, so I had him just under 6 years, an incredible age for a shrimp.

Sue · « **Reply #19 on:** February 06, 2015, 02:09:28 PM »

This morning, I visited one of the two shops that could have been the source of the infection and spoke to the chap there. I've known him for years - he left the first shop after it changed hands and the new owner replaced all the staff. While he was there, I once bought some fish that came down with whitespot a couple of days later, and he said I should have phoned the shop to let them know, so I knew he would he appoachable. At his next shop, one a bit far away to use regularly, he told me they had an outbreak of camallanus worms that came with a delivery of angelfish - they had to use a pigeon wormer to get rid of it.
At his current shop, because of that experience he does keep an eye out for worms and hasn't noticed any but will have a good look this afternoon. No other customer has come back to report a problem.
He knows about fenbendazol and the difficulty getting it in the UK. He has ordered a new to the shop product, eSHa-ndx, which is due in next week and said he'll let me have a bottle to try if the nematol doesn't work. eSHa's website doesn't say what the active ingredient is, unfortunately. And there is a new product about to be released which is a tablet for aquarium use, though he doesn't know yet what it treats so he'll contact the rep to find out.

He's taken my number and will let me know what the active ingredient of the eSHa product is (when it comes in and he can look), and also what the new tablet med treats for.

In about a month, I'll be thinking about getting more fish. Very slowly as most of the bacteria will have died off by then. I will go back to this shop to see because in the past it has been very good. And I do have a feeling it was the peacock gudgeons from the other shop that brought it into my tank. But by the time I can buy fish, the chap will know if there is a problem and he will be doing something to sort it out.

He also told me I don't necessarily need to do an 80% water change after the next dose of nematol. The Sera rep told him they only say that to cover themselves as it can make the water go cloudy or a funny colour, and can affect the filter bacteria. It's tanks with cloudy or funny coloured water that need the big water change - and it does say in the instructions this might happen.

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Lump On Nannacara And Camallanus Worms

Lump On Nannacara And Camallanus Worms

Author Topic: Lump on Nannacara and Camallanus Worms (Read 15725 times) 22 replies

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