Tropical Fish Forum
Tropical Fish Keeping Help and Advice => The Emergency Room => Topic started by: Diz1 on August 04, 2014, 07:59:58 PM
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Well, I guess it was going to happen sometime.
Noticed some white spot on one of my cherry barbs the other day ( after my Nerite snails had gone into the tank Grrr!). There are only a few spots, but I've noticed them on the platies too tonight.
Decided to opt for eSHa EXIT as I'd read that it was Ok for invertebrates. I've given 3 doses (3rd one tonight as per instructions) but don't see that much improvement. I did do a water change and scheduled tank maintenance before adding the meds, but on reading the instructions again, it clearly says not to use water conditioners. Of course, I had added tetra safe as usual with the new water.
Should I start the full dose again for 3 days ( water parameters are all fine so far) or will that poison my fish?
If you use this treatment without using water conditioners wouldn't you hurt the fish anyway?
Very confused and hoping someone can help!? ???
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What I meant to say was, the instructions say to do a water change if one is due before adding the product - which I did - but if I'd done that without adding a conditioner wouldn't I have killed the fish anyway? The snails seem to be fine by the way
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I've just googled the instructions and it does seem a bit odd. I do know that Tetra Safe Start (the bottled bacteria product) should not be used with water conditioners that detoxify ammonia - it's the chemical that does the detoxifying that's the problem - so I wonder if that affects Exit as well.
I would be inclined to do another 3 days, and don't do a water change till afterwards. You won't have seen any change if the parasites are still on the fish - it does take several days for them to eat enough then drop off the fish. The instructions do say it kills the parasite while on the fish but if it does that it's the only whitespot medication that does.
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Hi Sue
Thanks for the swift response. I meant I'd used tetra aqua safe at the water change. Will this have stopped the meds from working?
When you say to do another 3 days (which is what I was thinking of doing) do you mean start as if from day one with the full dose, or go for the further 3 day option of 10 drops per 100 litres as it says in the instructions. I'd like to start from the full dose again, but don't want to do more harm than good. Also, I've kept the lights off so as not to cause more stress, but I'm not sure that the plants will survive another 3 days with no light. Am I safe to turn them on again?
Thank you so much in advance :)
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Sorry, I meant I knew of another product that you couldn't use after using water conditioners, it just happens to be a Tetra product.
I'd follow their instructions and use the 10 drops per 100 litre dose. It doesn't mention not having the lights on (some meds do tell you not to) so you should be OK with them on. If the fish feels stressed they have the plants to hide in.
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Great, thanks again Sue, will start their 10 drops per 100 litres tomorro
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Diz I'm in a similar situation to you, I've been using eSHa 2000 and it says dont use with any other treatments including water conditioners but I'm having to do water changes because of raised nitrite and nitrates, its not supposed to affect filter bacteria but it's giving me food for thought.
Anyone else having similar problems?
I have to say it is doing the job though
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I know, it's very confusing. I've contacted the company direct about this and will share any information I get when/if I get a reply. I certainly think it worked though and my snails are happily trundling around the tank and eating their heads off, so it seems to be safe for them as well.
Following the outbreak in my tank, I've decided to set up a quarantine tank . That won't solve the problem with EXIT and water conditioners, but at least it should reduce the chances of my whole main tank :(
Becoming infected again!
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Thanks, the share will be very helpful :) I've got a quarantine tank cycling atm, better safe than sorry and I can use it to grow on plants when it's untenanted
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I have just looked at my bottle of eSHa 2000 and I have seen for the first time the bit about water conditioners. Never noticed it before :-[ I am now also awaiting the reply from eSHa
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They haven't replied to me yet, but I did notice that it said 'excessive' use of water conditioners in the instructions, so I'm hoping that they'll clarify what 'excessive' means..
Surely there can't be any water board anywhere that doesn't chlorinate it's water (except the Third World), so you'd think more people than us have come across this issue? ???
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Just a further thought, if I don't hear sometime next week, do you think it would be worth trying again but this time saying that I'm asking on behalf of a few of us? If they think that more than one customer is confused and needing help with the issue, then they might be more inclined to answer. ???
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Let them know we're discussing how wonderful their product is on a thread in the THINK FISH forum which has over 1k members and it might well do the job
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Well said Fiona! If no-one from the forum (moderators, legally savvy individuals or members in general) object to this approach, then I'm certainly willing to do this. If the issue re: water conditioners can be clarified so that we can use products that are invertebrate safe and filter safe, then surely that's a win-win situation for both the customer and the manufacturer?
I don't know, what do other people think? I certainly wouldn't write again until another week had elapsed, and I think that this has to be an approach that is clear on the fact that we really like the product and are totally convinced of its efficacy but just need a little clarity. :)
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By way of a PS, I do realise that I'm a newbie at all of this, and I don't want to tread on any toes or be seen as someone who's spouting off about something she knows nothing about. I'm perfectly willing to consider myself shot down in flames if this isn't a good idea!! LOL ;D
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I can't see any reason why not but to be on the safe side I would pm Robert. It is his forum after all ;D
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I know, that's one of the reasons I thought I should check. It's one thing asking a manufacturer on your own behalf, but, perhaps, entirely another when you say you're representing a body of people/ forum. In any case, I'm going to wait for a week longer to see how they respond. ;D
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Morning everyone,
I've had a response about eSHa EXIT from the manufacturer:
"Thank you for using our product eSHa Exit.
Waterconditioners have huge binding capacities and also bind the active ingredients of eSHa medicines.
Result is that the product does not work or works less as it should be.
There are different ways to make tapwater safe for your aquarium without adding waterconditioners.
You can aerate the water (hot) with a showerhead and let it stand in buckets to cool down before adding it into the aquarium.
You also can tap the water over fresh active carbon to remove the chlorine instantly (recommended).
Please preform a measure waterchange (2 x 50%) and clean the substrate by siphoning it off.
Then start a new cure with eSHa Exit extended dosage. If you see result at day 3 you can dose a few days longer with the normal dosage.
If you do not see any result at all we advice to stop the cure and change water (25%)
Best regards,
Suzanne
eSHa Labs"
Since Suzanne mentions all eSHa medicines, I'm assuming that this applies to 2000 as well.
This is perhaps one for someone knowledgeable like Sue, Collin, Steve etc., but my questions would be around using hot water through a shower head, or running it over carbon. Would these methods actually remove chlorine etc. effectively enough/ What kind of carbon would you use – presumably the filter sponges wouldn't be big enough/good enough to do an effective job?
Anyway, i know this is a bit of an essay, but I'd be keen to know what people's responses are to this advice from eSHa.
Diz
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The trouble is they don't say which ingredient in the water conditioners do the binding. I have just asked my husband (PhD in chemistry) to check.
Water conditioners contain sodium thiosulphate to remove the chlorine.
2 S2O32− + Cl2 → S4O62− + 2 Cl−
We don't think that would react with anything organic in a medication.
Water conditioners usually contain EDTA to bind metals. This would bind copper in those meds which contain it, but not organic chemicals.
That leaves the ammonia remover found in some water conditioners, but I don't know what it is. API's FAQs for ammo-lock say it can be used with all their meds.
I think I'll email them myself and ask.
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Sorry I couldn't be more help, my brain is strictly non-scientific!! ;D
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Interesting. I have just been to eSHA's website and found this in the advice section, water conditioners. My italics and underlining.
1. Introduction
Water conditioners are frequently used to remove chlorine, to bind heavy metals (such as Copper, Zinc and Lead), but especially to protect the skin layer of fish.
Under normal circumstances and dosages water conditioners cause no problems. However when used excessively, because of their strong binding capacities, water conditioners (de-chlorinators, heavy metal binders, etc.) can potentially decrease the effectiveness of products such as disease treatments, algae / snail treatments, etc. or even give rise to reactions.
This suggests that when used normally, they don't cause problems with meds, it using them excessively that does.
I wonder if they are objecting to the stuff that 'protects the fish's skin'?
2. What they do
They bind not only chlorine and heavy metals, but also the active components in products such as disease treatments and algae/snail treatments - and not just the left-over components, as is sometimes claimed. Unfortunately, a water conditioner cannot differentiate between 'useful' active components in an aquarium and the residue.
But using normal dosage is fine according to point #1
3. When you need them
You need a water conditioner if:
- You are setting up a new aquarium.
- You do not use tap water for your aquarium. Tap water which is suitable for drinking, does not contain heavy metals, therefor it is not necessary to remove and / or bind them.
- Your tap water contains chlorine. One can smell this very well when taking a shower. In this case it is sufficient to aerate your tap water well (using an air pump) or by using a shower head or watering can when changing water.
Maybe in the Netherlands tap water does not contain any metals, but it does have small amounts in the UK. Most fish are fine with metals but invertebrates (snails and shrimps) are not. Copper kills them.
Using a watering can won't get rid of chlorine as quick as they suggest. You need to run an airstone in a bucket of water for a few hours to make it safe.
4. How to remove them
Water conditioners can remain active for even over 1 year. The active components of water conditioners in aquariums can be removed only by changing water.
Solution: change 50% of aquarium water with tap water which is suitable for drinking without adding water conditioners*. If necessary repeat this for a second time.
* If your water contains chlorine, you can remove this easily, by aerating the water for 24 hours with an air pump, by using a shower head or watering can when changing water or by filtering the water once over fresh active carbon before adding it to the aquarium.
But what if you have chloramine? You can't get rid of it this way. More and more UK water companies are switching to chloramine.
I don't know of any other makes that say not to use a conditioner. I would be inclined to use one, but make sure you don't exceed the dose stated on the bottle.
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There are two types of treatment used by the water companies to sterilize your water supply.
- Chlorine Chlorine gas is dissolved into the water. It becomes, effectively, bleach, although a very mild one. The chlorine may be removed in a number of ways:
- Use a dechlorinator, usually sodium thiosulphate. This removed the chlorine as noted by Sue's husband above.
- You can leave the water to stand for about 24 hours in a bucket or similar and the chlorine gas will remove itself.
- You can use an activated carbon filter. The best bet would be to use the loose carbon and run your change water through it.
- Chloramine Chloramine is a chlorine-ammonia compound that is more resilient. None of the above methods will work with chloramine, you need to use a conditioner. If this impacts with your medicine, you need to find a medicine that it does not impact.
Looking round the forums about this matter, it seems to be a bit of a storm in a teacup. The overall view is to perform a water change before commencing the treatment, and then another after the treatment is complete and you should be all right.
Please preform a measure waterchange (2 x 50%) and clean the substrate by siphoning it off.
This will not remove the conditioner from your tank, only 75% of it!
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So, apart from taking a crash course in chemistry – which my poor brain wouldn't survive – then the best thing is to carry on regardless and do the water changes as advised then? LOL ;D
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Yes. But don't overdose the water conditioner ;D
And I do notice that eSHa don't make a water conditioner........
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Hmmm! That's very true – should we politely suggest that do you think? ;)
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I've just looked at Affinity Water website and it states they use chlorine as a water cleaner. So would I need to add a water conditioner to my water if I added an airstone to a couple of buckets of tap water and let it run overnight?
And you aren't on your own Diz my poor brain is boggled by this thread and my water hardness thread!
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That is fine. It's the old way of preparing water for a water change, only they tended to leave the bucket standing for several days, adding an airstone just speeds it up as it churns the water.
However, inverts (snails, shrimps) are easily poisoned by copper. I don't know how much is enough to do this so I use a dechlorinator to detoxify any potential problems.
I should also add that the dechlorinator I use contains just the chlorine remover and the metal detoxifier. It does not contain anything to detoxify ammonia or to help 'stimulate the slime coat'. As my water has chlorine not chloramine, there is no ammonia resulting from chloramine so I don't need a detoxifier.
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I don't intend to have shrimps in the tank and snails and these weird little limpet type thingies are becoming a bit of a problem, so if it kills them off I'd be more than happy. I just don't want to accidentally poison my fish, hmmm what to do?
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As long as the chlorine evaporates you won't harm your fish. And a trace of chlorine won't harm mature filters either, it's new bacteria colonies you have to be careful with. Once the bacteria are very thoroughly embedded in the biofilm they are protected from small amounts of chlorine. Running airstones in the buckets overnight should gas off all the chlorine.
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It suddenly clicked last night as I watched the little blue cloud of eSHa disperse in the tank WHY they suggest you avoid using water conditioners with eSHa fungus and whitespot treatment. Its because one of the active ingredients in eSHa is copper sulphate which of course the conditioners would bind, lessening the medicinal effect. It also goes a long way to explain why I can't clear my fish of finrot completely.
I see my future filled with buckets of aerating tap water ::)
edited to add:
I've got a 16l bucket of water aerating in the kitchen. Once it's aerated long enough would it be ok if I stored it in the empty 5l containers the de-ionised water comes in? I'd really like to be able to do a 50% water change tomorrow to get rid of as much water conditioner from the tank that I can.
And just to clarify, knowing how hard my water is, will it be safe to use without water conditioners if I continue with 50/50 tap water/de-ionised water?
Thankee in advance
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The hardness doesn't matter. It's what the water company adds to disinfect it that does. So chlorine or chloramine are the things you need to get out. Chlorine gasses off, so what you are doing is fine. If you had chloramine, it wouldn't so you'd have to use a dechlorinator.
Dechlorinators should affect all whitespot treatments as copper is the main ingredient for the majority of them. eSHa is the only one that says not to use a dechlorinator. I use King British original formula WS3 at half dose for two of my tanks as they have cories or loaches. I've always dechlorinated and the whitespot has always gone.
Just checked up on a document I saved and ws3 contains malachite green. Although malachite is a copper ore, malachite green doesn't contain copper, it's just called that because the med is the same colour as the mineral.
Protozin by Waterlife contains malachite green. So does the Interpet whitespot med.
It doesn't mention eSHa Exit, just 2000.
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White spot isn't my problem (interpet meds cleared that in 24hrs) , fin and mouth rot is, so I'll go ahead with a 50-75% water change tomorrow minus water conditioner and then dose with eSHa 2000
(eSHa 2000 has Composition/1ml Ethracridine lactate 6.3 mg Copper Sulphate 8.0mg Proflavin Hemisulpurate 1mg in in water....as read from bottle ingredients)
Hopefully it'll do the trick
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Thanks for the clarification.
My document has the same ingredients (except that it gives copper ions rather than copper sulphate) and it also adds methyl orange to that list. I remember using that at school in the late 1960s as an indicator.
eSHa's website says 2000 treats over 18 symptoms and diseases including primary and secondary fungus infections, bacterial skin infections, skin/gill parasites, protozoan parasites, finrot etc
Copper sulphate kills external parasites
Ethacridine is an antispetic
Proflavin acts against gram positive bacteria.
If you are treating for fin and mouth rot, it's the other things that are the chemicals that work rather than copper sulphate. That is used for the skin/gill parasites and protozoan parasites that 2000 also treats. The anti-finrot chemicals shouldn't be affected by the dechlorinator ingredients.
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So, as a completely non-scientific person who's probably at the "remedial fish care level " , can I be sure that eSHA EXIT and 2000 are going to cover the majority of ailments I'm likely to come across (apart from congenital conditions, tumor, injury etc.)?
In other words, between the 2 medications, is the use of EXIT and 2000 likely to be my best bet for most disease-related issues whilst keeping my invertebrates safe if I QT them when using 2000?
Or are there other invertebrate-safe meds that will be as effective for as many conditions?
Sorry if this is going off at a tangent . I apologise if I should have started a separate thread. :-\
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Gawd :( fin and mouth rot are my huge probs atm and apart from going back in time I've no idea what to do next
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Whoever said fish keeping was relaxing eh? Between watching for disease, and treating for disease and worrying about a hundred other things that might go wrong/happen to them you've earned the little bits of relaxation between! :))
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The guy in the shop said to me if you have eSHA 2000 and EXIT you have a pretty comprehensive fishy first aid kit.
Looking at my finny friends this morning I actually think the fin and tail rot are subsiding a bit.
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That's good to hear. I would rather stick with these if I could. :)
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Those are just about the only meds you should need.
Anything with copper in it is not safe for inverts. If you need to use a copper containing med, either treat the fish in a hospital tank or move the inverts to somewhere safe first.
The main reason I use King British orig formula WS3 is that I needed it in a hurry and that was all the nearest shop had in. I removed the snails but couldn't catch the amano shrimps. I used the med at half dose because of the loaches and to my surprise the amanos survived. They obviously weren't happy as they hid for the duration but I was quite surprised when they came out again once the med had been removed. I wouldn't have risked the snails though and I don't think I'd risk it with my cherry shrimp in the other tank.
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Thanks Sue, I would definately remove the snails before treating with 2000, though they were fine with EXIT. Regarding the snails, though, if I've treated fish with 2000 in the QT tank, will there be any residue left to harm the snails once these fish go into the main tank, or will it all have been excreted in the 2 weeks that they're in QT (after the course of 2000 med is completed).
Fiona, I'm glad your fish seem to be on the mend!
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Hmmm....
The fish themselves won't pose a problem, but what could is the filter media when you put that back in the main tank's filter. There would possibly be a trace of the med. Do several water changes before putting the quarantined fish in the main tank, that should get rid of anything in the media. Since QTs are usually small, several water changes won't take long.
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Will do, thanks! ;D