Tropical Fish Forum
Think Fish Tropical Fish Forum => Introductions and hello's => Topic started by: Peter In York on September 01, 2019, 09:23:28 AM
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Hi TF members
I have just set up my first tropical tank.
It's only a 60cm x 30cm x 30cm - but you have to start somewhere
I am in the process of fishless cycling at the moment
I had a cold water tank many years ago kept Bitterlings and mussels. How things have changed. Undergravel filter and lots of plants and never did a water change.
This time I think some dwarf species of corys maybe Julii our local MA has them. But cannot decide on the species of Tetra. I was thinking Green Neon.
Any ideas from you guys always grateful.
Cheers Peter
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Hi, welcome to the forum :wave:
Can I ask you to type your postcode in here https://www.yorkshirewater.com/water-quality/check-your-water-hardness/ and tell us what the number they give is, please. The unit should be "mg/l calcium".
I know someone who used to live in York and they said the water was quite hard.
I should explain that water hardness is another thing we've come to understand better in more recent years. Fish need to be kept in water similar to that in which they originate, and this is more important for wild caught fish. Hardness is the amount of mainly calcium, some magnesium and trace amounts of other metals in the water.
Fish from soft water which are kept in hard water will not live out their full life span. Soft water fish have evolved to retain as much calcium as possible from the water, and if there is a lot of calcium they retain too much. Autopsies of cardinal tetras kept in hard water show calcium deposits in their organs which shortened their lives.
Fish from hard water suffer if kept in soft water. Hard water fish have bodies which have evolved to excrete all that extra calcium which is in the water they ingest. In soft water, they continue excreting calcium but there is not enough left for their bodies to perform properly so they become sick much more easily.
Unfortunately, both the fish you name - green neons and cories - are soft water fish, which is why we need to know how hard your water is. And wild caught fish such as green neons are more likely to suffer if kept in a hardness that is "wrong" for them.
If it does turn out to be hard, there are many fish you can keep, from livebearers such as guppies and endlers (the others get too big for your tank) through to fish such as some of the Pseudomugil species.
It is possible to 'soften' water by mixing tap water with 'pure' water such as reverse osmosis (RO) but this is not something to undertake lightly. If you really do want soft water fish, we can talk you through this.
Is your local MA the one in Poppleton? I live in Teesside and we use the Poppleton park & ride when we visit York - so naturally I go into the garden centre to look at fish ;D MA is one of the better shops, but some branches are better than others. Be careful about taking advice from any shop worker, even those in MA. They stock soft water fish because they are not there long, and they don't care what happens after they leave the shop.
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Hi Sue
The water is hard. Think it said a 103 mg/l. 14.434 German degrees.
Calcium is 90mg/l
I looked at the Jullii Cory's and thought the would be okay with my water hardness.
I had a look at the RO water from MA. So might have to use that.
The fish I mentioned are stocked at local MA and (wrongly) thought they used similar water hardness. Still learning.
I will have have another look at other fish species or find a usable method of softening the water. Is there anyway I can find out the correct mixture amounts to get the water to the correct softness using RO water?
Cheers Peter
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Mixing tap and RO water is easy to work out. Half and half will reduce the hardness by half, ie from 14.4 to 7.2 dH. Three quarters RO and one quarter tap will give 3.6 dH. Unlike pH, it is a linear relationship.
You can buy RO water or RO equipment. If you are on a water meter it could be expensive making your own as there is a lot of waste water made during the process. You would need to have some RO on hand at all times in case you should ever need to do an emergency water change.
The fish in the shop are only there for a very short time. Fish that don't sell don't make money.
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Hi @Peter In York and welcome to the forum. :wave:
I live in a hard water area, and use a mix of tap & RO in some of my tanks.
Always check what water parameters, tank size, etc fish require. Shops don't always give the best advice if they are concentrating on a sale. Some shops/staff are very good, others are not. It may take a while to work out which your local shop. :)
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Thanks Sue and Littlefish
The tap and RO ratios seem simple enough.
I know MA at Poppleton sell RO water. I have several 20 ltr containers in my garage so should be able to buy enough RO water for my needs - until multiple rank syndrome kicks in.
Seems research before entering the shop seems a good idea.
Cheers Peter
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Just to warn you - another thing that has changed over the years is that water changes are now recommended as at least 50% per week, if that affects your thinking on RO water.
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Great to hear that you already expect to succumb to multi tank syndrome.
That makes me feel much better. ;D
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Hi Peter I'm in Acomb, I too use MA, the current average water hardness for me is 96.8mg/l calcium according to the website above.
I have the small corys and yes I did no research as a beginner regarding water suitability, unfortunately i doubt if many do, so I lost all the origional corys I had but the four I have left were all born in the tank.
I have a similar size tank to yours.
The other readings were as follows, if anyone can understand them.
Aluminium 6.6 200 µg Al/l
Calcium 80.9 - mg Ca/l
Residual chlorine - free 0.14 - mg/l Cl2
Residual chlorine - total 0.55 - mg/l Cl2
Colour 1.2 20 mg/l Pt/Co Scale
Conductivity 485 2500 µS/cm
Copper 0.0741 2 mg Cu/l
EColi 0 0 no/100ml
Fluoride 0.1 1.5 mg F/l
Iron 8.8 200 µg Fe/l
Lead 1.77 10 µg Pb/l
Magnesium 9.6 - mg Mg/l
Manganese 1.8 50 µg Mn/I
Nitrate 13.68 50 mg NO3/l
Nitrite 0.022 0.5 mg NO2/l
Sodium 17.8 200 mg Na/l
TotalColiforms 0 0 no/100ml
Turbidity 0.16 4 NTU
pH (Hydrogen Ion Conc.) 7.1 6.5 - 9.5 pH Units
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Just to warn you - another thing that has changed over the years is that water changes are now recommended as at least 50% per week, if that affects your thinking on RO water.
Hi Sue,
Where has this recommendation come from? What is the rationale behind it? Fair enough if you're using the Estimative Index (EI) method for plant fertilization but otherwise I don't get it. Please enlighten me.
JPC
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I know MA at Poppleton sell RO water. I have several 20 ltr containers in my garage so should be able to buy enough RO water for my needs - until multiple rank syndrome kicks in.
Hi Peter,
I get my RO water from MA and have done for a few years. I suggest you get yourself a conductivity or TDS meter and check the RO water if you choose to buy from MA. They don't always maintain the RO filtration system properly. If you buy RO water with no added salts, you're looking for a conductivity less than 25 microSiemens/cm. This approximates to a TDS of 15ppm. Even a cheap TDS meter is a worthwhile investment. You can get them for a few quid.
JPC
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Jaypeecee -
It's just that over the years fishkeepers have realised that the more water that is changed per week, the healthier their fish are. Some people advocate 75% weekly water changes! There is no scientific evidence, just something that experienced fishkeepers (and I'm not one of them!) have worked out for themselves.
The people recommending larger water changes all tend to have planted tanks, but use nothing other than root tabs and/or liquid fertiliser. They don't have plant substrates or use CO2, gas or liquid.
sharpandroid -
The figures to look at are:
Hardness 96.8 mg/l calcium. This is a peculiarly British unit and is not used by fishkeeping websites. It converts to 13.5 dH and 242 ppm - those are the units that fishkeeping uses.
Nitrate 13.6 mg/l is the same as 13.6 ppm. The number 50 is the maximum allowed in drinking water. It is low enough that you should be able to keep your tank nitrate under 20 ppm.
pH 7.1 (the 6.5 to 9.5 is the range allowed in drinking water). Test your tap water. Test both a freshly run sample and a sample that's been allowed to stand overnight and see which one agrees with the water company's figure.
TDS = total dissolved solids. Hardness measures just calcium, magnesium and some trace metals, but there is a lot more besides them in our tap water. TDS measures everything. Soft water fish need low TDS as well as low hardness.
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Thanks for all the great advice.
I am going to get my RO water from MA (£3.50 for 25 ltr) unless I can find another source locally and it looks like I will be buying TDS metre too.
With the aim to soften my water with the RO. I have also purchased some Indian Almond Leaves to add to my aquarium to make the water more acidic. I know about the colour and the more natural I can make the tank look the better.
So hopefully the fish will be content.
I am also going to put some plants in the aquarium with the intention of having a heavily planted tank
I discovered Apistogrammas today. Might have found my fish for my aquarium if I can source them locally.
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Jaypeecee -
It's just that over the years fishkeepers have realised that the more water that is changed per week, the healthier their fish are. Some people advocate 75% weekly water changes! There is no scientific evidence, just something that experienced fishkeepers (and I'm not one of them!) have worked out for themselves.
The people recommending larger water changes all tend to have planted tanks, but use nothing other than root tabs and/or liquid fertiliser. They don't have plant substrates or use CO2, gas or liquid.
Hi Sue,
Thanks for that.
There may be some correlation between fish growth rate and the build-up of pheromones in the tank water column. I will explore this further with my mates at the Bracknell Aquarist Society of which I'm a member.
Doing water changes of whatever percentage and whatever frequency needs to be considered alongside the frequency of cleaning the filter system. To some extent, they go hand-in-hand, don't they? It is common to see recommendations about the former but not so common to see recommendations about the latter. I prefer to be guided by measurements. Notably, conductivity, nitrate, phosphate, KH and GH. I dabbled with ORP/redox a while ago and may return to it.
JPC
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TDS will measure a lot more than our test kits and will give a better idea of when things are building up. I used to work in a hospital lab and we tested urine for many things which fish will also excrete (or similar things). There were also many things we didn't test for, and fish will excrete similar things to those.
All these biochemicals need to be removed.
Best practice is to clean a standard filter (internals, external/cannister filters, trickle filters) once every two weeks. I know there are some different types of filter but have no experience with those. I have two internals, and I clean one a week. The brown goo that builds up inside them is often referred to as a nitrate factory.
I clean mine by squeezing sponges and swooshing ceramic media in old tank water that I have just removed from the tank during a water change.
[I have two filters because they are both rated for tanks smaller than mine. I used to have just one, rated for my tank size, but the pump stopped working. I had a filter of the same type from a smaller tank which I closed so I used the pump from that to replace the broken one, and bough a second, smaller filter of the same type and divided the original media baskets between the two filters]
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All these biochemicals need to be removed.
The brown goo that builds up inside them is often referred to as a nitrate factory.
Hi Sue,
Taking your first point above, it is unclear to me how effectively we remove these biochemicals. Activated carbon may help but to what extent? There are also products like Seachem Purigen or Seachem Renew. But, again, how effective are these with biochemicals/organic waste? And plants will probably help. Seachem has this to say about Renew:
"Renew™ will remove organics and particulates in the sub-micron range; it will also help control ammonia, nitrates, and phosphates".
The word "organics" tells us that it's a compound based on carbon but not a lot more!
With reference to your second point, the brown goo isn't just a nitrate factory, it's also a dissolved organics factory.
I've done various experiments in an attempt to measure dissolved organic compounds (DOCs). With only minimal success. But it's a subject that interests me and I will persevere with this one.
JPC
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Sorry, I didn't make it clear. I was referring to the biochemicals excreted and secreted by the fish, which are removed by water changes. The organics in tap water obviously can't be removed by water changes. Those aren't mentioned in my water quality report as such, the only things listed that could be described as 'organic' are benzo(3,4)pyrene, polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons and trihalomethanes.
I agree about the brown goo - it's just that you see it described as a nitrate factory in most places that mention it. It should be removed regularly.
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The organics in tap water obviously can't be removed by water changes. Those aren't mentioned in my water quality report as such, the only things listed that could be described as 'organic' are benzo(3,4)pyrene, polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons and trihalomethanes.
Hi Sue,
It's interesting that different water companies' reports vary somewhat in terms of what they include. My South East Water report lists various compounds, which I've worked out are herbicides, insecticides and pesticides. They all appear to be less than the PCV (Prescribed Concentration or Value). It also lists Total Organic Carbon, which had a mean value of 1.80 mg/l in 2018. I include this figure here for information only as I have nothing with which to compare it.
JPC
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I am in the process of fishless cycling at the moment
Hi Peter,
How is your fishless cycle progressing?
JPC
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Going okay so far.
Still have 4ppm of ammonia.
Need to test for nitrates tonight.
The only problem I have is my wood I have put in the tank seems to have a white film starting to cover it.
Oh yes I have purchased another tank. Slightly bigger at 91cm.
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You can scrub the wood to remove the film. It will stop at some point.
Need to test for nitrates tonight.
I hope you mean nitrite ;)
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Still have 4ppm of ammonia.
Need to test for nitrates tonight.
Hi Peter,
Please remind me of the method you are following. And what are you using as your supply of nitrifying bacteria? Is it gravel or mature biological media from another tank? Or, perhaps a bottled bacteria product such as Tetra SafeStart? Do you have plenty of aeration? What is the water temperature? That's enough questions for now!
JPC
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Yes Sue I meant Nitrite.
I am using an undergravel filter with 2 down tube fed by an air pump and 2 airstone. I have fine gravel on top with some plants and root tabs in the gravel.
The water is 28°C.
I have used Fluval Biological Enhancer. For the first 4 days I have been putting 25ml as per instructions on the bottle.
I have just put one Indian Almond Leaf to try and soften and acidify the water. I will test the pH in a day or two when the leave has stopped floating around.
I am hoping once the bacteria start doing their job the white film on my wood will disappear.
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You said that your ammonia reading was 4 ppm - did you add ammonia or is that in the Fluval product? I know that some bacterial products used to contain ammonia but don't know if they still do.
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Hi Sue
I added some. I purchased a bottle of Dr Tim's Ammonium Chloride and followed instructions on the bottle.
Cheers
Peter
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Just wanted to check, you didn't mention it a couple of posts ago ;)
The IAL won't do much for the hardness or pH I'm afraid. The only way to reduce hardness is by removing calcium from the water, and adding things, even IAL, doesn't do this. The only way to remove calcium is by diluting it with 'pure' water. And hard water goes with high KH. When there is a lot of carbonate (ie KH) in the water it is virtually impossible to lower the pH as the carbonate prevents it.
However, going back through the thread, I see you intend using RO water. The cycle will go faster in hard water with high pH so the time to introduce RO is once the cycle has finished.
You also mentioned apistogrammas a few pots ago - look in MA in Poppleton.
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I thought the IAL added tannins into the water which softens and altered the pH of the water.
Yes hoping to pop to MA at Poppleton this weekend to see what is available.
I have bought a TPI water hardness kit to add to my master test kit. So I should know what my water is doing.
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Tannins cannot remove calcium so it can't soften water. They can reduce pH but only in water with low KH. They use up all the KH so the pH can then fall.
With hard water, there is no effect, you have to use RO water or similar to lower both GH and KH for the tannins
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Hi Peter,
What is the pH and KH of your tank water? Both of these are critical to the success of your cycle. The pH needs to be between 7.4 and 8.0 for the nitrifying bacteria to multiply in numbers. KH should be between 6dKH and 8dKH at the start of the cycle. KH will reduce as the cycle progresses.
JPC
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Just tested my water. Ammonia is 0.5ppm. Ph is 7.6. Nitrite is 5ppm. Kh is 7.
So I have added some more ammonium chloride.
Picked up other tank this morning. Its a 90cm x 38cm x 30cm - 95ltr. Just need to sort out a stand for it and start buying the substrate etc to get it going.
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Just tested my water. Ammonia is 0.5ppm. Ph is 7.6. Nitrite is 5ppm. Kh is 7.
Hi Peter,
Excellent! You are well on track for a successful cycle.
JPC
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Just tested my water. Ammonia is 0.0ppm. Nitrite is 1.0ppm.
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Test again in 2 days -11 September - and if nitrite has dropped below 1 ppm, add ammonia to 3 ppm and test next day. If that shows zero for both, the cycle has finished. But if either are above zero, the next step depends on the actual readings.
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Thank Sue.
Been following your guide in the cycle section.
Looking forward to getting my first fish or two. But still cannot put my finger on the ones I want.
I am hoping my tank will be cycled on Saturday. Then I can do big water change (down to substrate) with RO water. Then think about getting fish on Sunday.
Plants are growing nicely. Lots of fresh green shoots and the roots are growing on the surface plants.
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Don't forget that fish can't live in 100% RO - you either have to mix it with tap water or add remineralisation salts ;)
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Sorry should have said, I will be getting remineralised RO.
I was wondering how many Cory's can I get to start my tank off with. I am looking at either Julii or salt and pepper. I intend to have atleast 6 but do not want to overload my tank in the first month.
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If you do a fishless cycle, in theory you can fully stock the tank as soon as it has cycled. I prefer to do less than that, for 2 reasons. First it gives you 'wiggle room' if the tank was not fully cycled and secondly you are bound to spot a must-have fish during the first few months and not have any room for them.
Any sensitive fish should wait till the tank has been running a few months.
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I know you haven't been sure about which fish to get but, if you were still swaying between a type of tetra (or harlequin or other mid-level fish) or a type of cory, best to opt for the tetra (or other mid-level fish I mention) as they're less sensitive than cories.
The type you opt for depends on what you'd like in the tank. There are advantages of different types e.g. strong colouring (green neon tetras, cardinal tetras, ember tetras if in planted tank for contrast against greenery, red phantom tetras), patterning (harlequin rasboras or espei or hengeli rasboras), strong finnage colouring to contrast with a neutral-coloured body (e.g. x-ray tetras). I also value being able to make eye contact with each of my fish, so that rules out some with a horizontal stripe that 'hides' the eye to some extent (e.g. cherry barbs) but this is less important to most folk.
If you decided to keep the larger tank for a community of mid-level fish and cories and possibly a couple of feature fish such as honey gourami or even surface dwellers such as hatchetfish, then an alternative for your smaller tank might be some dwarf puffers which might suit your water without you having to use RO water in that tank (if you were prepared to feed them snails, etc, as required).
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Oooh, this is getting exciting. ;D
I couldn't agree more with Sue when she says about not fully stocking your tank because you're bound to see a fish in the first few months that you must have. That's how I ended up with so many tanks.
I have hatchetfish in a couple of tanks, and they do look good at the surface. I also have a dwarf puffer tank, and it's very difficult to ignore those adorable little faces. Perhaps it's best that I don't get involved here as I'd probably encourage you to get a lot more tanks. ;)
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Thanks guys. You have given me even more of a headache. Suggesting fish I had not even considered. I am thinking Cory's and rams. I do like the look of the Electric Blue - ust get a couple and a shoal 6+ salt pepper Cory's.
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Rams must choose their own mates. You can't get any male and any female and expect them to get on. They may, they may not - which will end up as one dead fish.
The way to buy them is firstly take someone with you. Stand still in front of the tank for as long as it takes for the fish to forget you are there. Until then they will not behave normally. Watch the fish. The males will defend a small territory and will 'attack' the other males. They won't actually make contact, just show intent. The females will just be getting on with life. If any male allows a female to remain close to him without chasing her off, they are more likely (though not guaranteed) to be a pair. Keep your eyes on them and send the other person to get a member of staff.
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Finally got my Ammonia to 0/ppm and my Nitrite to 0/ppm and as a bonus my Nitrate is down to 20-40/ppm. (Think my plants are doing what they are suppose to be doing) So not long now til fully cycled.
The Nitrite seemed to take an age to go down.
Put 3/ppm of ammonia in last night so will test later to day and hopefully the tests will show my tank is alnost fully cycled.
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Had zero ammonia and nitrite again.
Bite the bullet and got my first fish.
6 Amber Tetras
5 Peppered Corys
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That’s great :cheers: looking forward to seeing pictures when they’ve settled in :)
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Had zero ammonia and nitrite again.
Bite the bullet and got my first fish.
6 Amber Tetras
5 Peppered Corys
That's fantastic news, congrats! :)
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They Seemed to have settled in.
Excuse the sponge filter I am cycling it to put in my other tank.
Any suggestions on food for my tetras. The pellets got are a bit too big. The flake is fine but want a variety.
Hopefully going to get some live food today.
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They Seemed to have settled in.
Excuse the sponge filter I am cycling it to put in my other tank.
Any suggestions on food for my tetras. The pellets got are a bit too big. The flake is fine but want a variety.
Hopefully going to get some live food today.
Nice pictures :) here’s a Link to seriously fish with some info on your Tetras
http://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/hyphessobrycon-amandae/
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Nice to see the photos, and glad all's going well.
For small fish, I find Fish Science Tropical Fish Micro Granules (slowly sinking; natural formula with insect meal) ideal, as they're the smallest pellets I've seen, red in colour, and therefore easily taken/consumed - I'd recommend these as the best option for your ember tetras. Aquarium Munster / Dr Bassleer's Biofish-Food (regular) are also very small pellets but, being brown in colour and sinking, they sometimes fall fast before they're noticed - but your embers would likely enjoy those that they do notice/reach and they'd be ideal for bottom-dwellers or those who eat from the bottom (your cories but not your embers). Fluval Bug Bites Tropical Formula for small fish (insect larvae and salmon recipe fish food) are good too but seem to be slightly bigger and more difficult to chew, brown in colour, and so are slightly less easily taken/consumed; you could pre-soak these to make them easier to chew but then they might fall faster and be missed by the embers.
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I have smallish fish and I use Omega One flakes (for Ebay/Amazon) or New Life Spectrum flakes (again Ebay/Amazon) and New Life Spectrum small pellets for the bottom feeders.
With only a few fish, frozen live food would be better that alive live food. Frozen cubes can be cut with a sharp knife to feed the amount needed; alive food comes in bags and they go off if you keep them - and a whole bag is too much food. Look for irradiated frozen food as that kills the bugs that often come with alive food. I've seen daphnia, blood worm, brine shrimp, mysis, occasionally black worms, etc. Either packs of a few types or a multi pack of several types together.
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I bought 5 pack of frozen food. Bllodworm, black mosquito and white mosquito aswell as brine shrimp and daphina. Just to see what they like. 5 for £10
Also got Dr Bassleer, NTL probiotical tropical, and some JBL Krill.
Oh yes and 5 more Ember Tetras. They are so much more confident in a shoal of 11. 5 more in a weeks time and my tank is complete. Look brilliant in my tank against the green foliage.
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Well. The fish have settled in.
So much so that I have eggs on the glass.
Think the Cory's have been up to no good. Lol
Setting up a small tank to separate the eggs from the rest of the fish.
Think my 3ft tank might have to be put on back burner.
Oh and bought a couple a armano shrimp for the tank too.
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Congrats on the eggs. Eggciting times! :rotfl:
I've never managed to successfully raise any fry myself so you might be about to make me very jealous!!
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Congratulations. :cheers:
I've let nature take its course with cory eggs, and have had babies from both the peppered and panda cories. They are very cute. Best of luck with yours, and let us know how they get on.
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Just a quick update.
I have managed to get around 10 fry to survive.
I have them in a small 400 x 250 x 250 tank at the moment with some Amano shrimp for company.
I am so chuffed. They are about 10-25mm long. They are different ages and sizes due to different batches.
I will upload some picture if I can.
My 900mm tank is still empty apart for a large piece of wood and some plants. It is all cycled. Just waiting for pay day to come around then a visit to the local fish store.
Trying to decide whether to wait til the fry are a bit bigger and put them all together with the original 5 in the 900mm. The 15 of them should look quite impressive. The local store said they would take them off my hands when they get to around a 30-40mm for store credit.
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That's super news ;D do share some pictures when you can!
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Great news indeed. :cheers: