Hello Everyone

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Offline Dr Um

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Hello everyone
« on: July 20, 2017, 01:19:48 PM »
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Hi everybody.  So pleased to have found this forum - seems like an absolute goldmine of help and information!  My family are completely new to fish keeping, but decided to give it a go as we wanted our boys to have experience of looking after animals and we thought fish would be fairly straightforward.  Boy, were we wrong - it would appear there's a LOT more to it than I first thought!

Having done some initial research, we've bought a Fluval Roma 125 tank (U3 filter) and stand, and I'm now awaiting delivery of my water test kit, so we can see what we're dealing with and then get the tank cycled before getting our first fish.  Our thoughts are to stick with peaceful, "easier" community fish and obviously take it very slowly.  One of my boys has developed a fancy for Black Phantom Tetra, so if we could get some in there at some point, that would be fab.

Current thoughts are some sort of combination of some of the following:

Black phantom tetra
Other tetra varieties
Dwarf cory
Rasbora
Cherry barbs (I've read that they're relatively peaceful)
Dwarf rainbow fish

Given the tank size, I guess we'd probably only be looking at perhaps a few different types at most of those listed, in schools.  I don't fancy adding any livebearers, as I'm not sure I could deal with the whole "eating your own young" thing!

I'd be grateful for any comments or suggestions on the above - I'm keen to get it right and not cause any unnecessary stress or harm to the fish.

Thanks!

Offline Littlefish

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Re: Hello everyone
« Reply #1 on: July 20, 2017, 01:51:12 PM »
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Hi there and welcome to the forum.  :wave:
I have only been keeping fish for around 18 months, and have found the experience and advice available on this site amazing.
What are your tap water parameters? If you check on you water suppliers website they should give all the information on hardness, etc. This sort of thing can be quite helpful.
Great to hear that you are planning a fishless cycle.  :cheers:
I quite like the Fluval Roma tanks, and have the 125L and 200L tanks. I find the lids very easy to work with. The U3 filter is quite chunky, but it does the job.
Please keep us updated on your progress, with pics if possible.  :)

Offline Sue

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Re: Hello everyone
« Reply #2 on: July 20, 2017, 02:26:31 PM »
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Hi, and welcome  :wave:

As Littlefish said, you need to know your hardness and pH before deciding on fish, but you do have cycling time to finalise your wish list. You can buy hardness testers but it is cheaper to check on your water supplier's website. Can you tell us the number and the unit. There are half a dozen units they could use, but only two are used in fishkeeping so you may need to convert the value.
The reason is that is is much better for the fish if you choose species that come from water with the same hardness as your tap water.

Offline MarquisMirage

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Re: Hello everyone
« Reply #3 on: July 20, 2017, 06:06:22 PM »
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Welcome to the forum! :)

Offline TrenchyLs

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Re: Hello everyone
« Reply #4 on: July 20, 2017, 08:39:35 PM »
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Welcome Dr Um.

Exciting times ahead.  At least once the tank is cycled (which isn't exciting at all!).

Offline Dr Um

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Re: Hello everyone
« Reply #5 on: July 21, 2017, 07:11:47 AM »
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Thanks for the warm welcome everyone!

The water supplier's website says the pH is 7.6 and Ca is 65.9 mg/l , although it also says the the Water hardness average is 108.9mg/l calcium!

Will this affect my choices?

Offline Sue

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Re: Hello everyone
« Reply #6 on: July 21, 2017, 09:30:27 AM »
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That does seem a bit odd; those two values are quite a bit different

The two units used in fishkeeping are german degrees, usually called just degrees or dH, and ppm, also called mg/l CaCO3.
If both your units are mg/l Ca -
65.9 converts to 9.2 deg and 164 ppm
108.9 converts to 15.5 deg and 272 ppm

The first is middling hardness the second is definitely hard.


Can I try something - can you give me the name of your water company and I'll see what I can find on their website. (I usually look on yellow pages for a shop in their area then use that postcode to investigate  ;D )

Offline Dr Um

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Re: Hello everyone
« Reply #7 on: July 21, 2017, 02:51:22 PM »
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Thanks Sue - it's Yorkshire Water, but they have different supplies depending on postcode.  I've (hopefully!) attached a screenshot so you can see the data.

Offline Sue

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Re: Hello everyone
« Reply #8 on: July 21, 2017, 08:26:44 PM »
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My younger son used to work for a water testing company and he explained what exactly it is that water companies call hardness.
Hardness is a measure of divalent metal ions, which are mainly calcium ions, with some magnesium ions and trace amounts of other metal ions. But they add all the ions together and express it as though it was all calcium (or calcium oxide or calcium carbonate). Although they use the unit mg/l Ca for hardness, it is not a measure of the amount of calcium in the water but rather what the total of all the divalent metal ions would be if they were all calcium.

Looking at your screen shot, you need the hardness figure to the right of the table. The figures in the table are the analysis of each individual metal, not the hardness.

So, ignore the figures in the table; look at 'hardness' on the right hand side of the page (108.9 mg/l calcium) If you click on the 'convert your hardness' button, and convert your 108.9 mg/l calcium into mg/l calcium carbonate (also called ppm) and German degrees, those are the two you need for fish keeping. I converted it to 15.5 deg and 272 ppm, you can check my maths  ;D
(My younger son now lives in Yorkshire, so I went to Yorkshire Water's website and used his postcode so I know the convert button works)



Then you need to go to Seriously Fish and look up the fish on the list in your first post. Some profiles on there use ppm, some use German deg (oH)

Black phantom tetra - 18 to 215 ppm
Dwarf cory (I looked at pygmy cory) - 2 to 15 deg
Rasbora (I looked at harlequin rasbora) - 18 to 215 ppm (search for Trigonostigma heteromorpha)
Cherry barb - 36 to 357 ppm
Dwarf rainbows - 5 to 15 deg


As you can see, your water is a bit too hard for black phantoms and harlequin rasboras; just about OK for pygmy cories and dwarf rainbows; and very suitable for cherry barbs.



It is much better to get fish that like your water than to try to alter the water to suit the fish you like. The latter can be done, but I would gain some experience before risking this option.


Fishless cycling takes a few weeks so you have plenty time to finalise your wish list. I would use this time to go round all your local shops and make a note of all the fish that catch your eye. Then go home and look them up on Seriously Fish, seeing which ones match your tap water hardness.
But be warned. The vast majority of shop workers don't believe in fishless cycling. If you tell them that's what you are doing, they'll either ridicule the idea or tell you to buy a bottled bacteria product and buy some fish at the same time. Resist!!!!!

Offline Littlefish

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Re: Hello everyone
« Reply #9 on: July 22, 2017, 09:35:38 AM »
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My water is even harder than yours at 17dh.
I have mainly stuck with fish that work well in hard water (livebearers, oddballs, etc), but I confess that I have also kept fish slightly outside their normal range. Generally it is best to keep fish in the middle of their preferred range for all water parameters. However, some commercially bred fish are considered more adaptable to a wider range of parameters that their wild counterparts.
I'm choosing my words very carefully here as this can be quite a controversial topic.
In my opinion - which I would like to point out really doesn't count for much as I'm still a relative newbie, and my opinions have also been formed from dealing with living in a hard water region - if you are going to try to change your water parameters you may be better off with mixing your tap water with RO water (easily purchased from fish stores like MA). I have previously tried to use products like "pH down" during my very first fishless cycle. It precipitated out and the whole tanks went cloudy, refused to clear, and had to be stripped down & the cycle started again.
In praise of hard water, it makes your tank very stable, but can direct your choices of stock in the direction of things like dwarf puffers (I love mine) and other quirky characters (I also find my mudskippers endlessly entertaining, like having tiny, finned puppies).
Have a look at this article, as it may also direct you towards fish that you may not have considered, but may be quite similar in shape or colour to those that you like.
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/FWSubWebIndex/fwhardness.htm
On the other hand, and this is where things can become quite controversial, I have fish in some of my tanks that would not be considered suitable for my water conditions. I have fish that are normally listed as the top of their range being perhaps 12dh. I spoke to staff at local stores, and found that they imported their stock from commercial farms that had similar/slightly harder water conditions to our local area. On one hand, that's great, because the fish would be sort of acclimatised to hard water. On the other hand, evolution is not a speedy process, so even if the fish have been bred in water outside their "normal, wild type" parameters for many generations, the associated issues of keeping fish in harder water (shortened life span due to kidney & other internal organ problems) are still valid.
It's a tricky one.
Luckily I'm very partial to weird stuff (puffers, mudskippers, axolotls), most of which are more suitable for hard water. The sewellia linealoata, which I have wanted for ages, are generally only available from wild caught stock (another controversial topic), so the river tank I'm setting up for them is going to be a mix of tap & RO to make the water more suitable for them, as wild stock are better kept more towards the middle of their stated range.
I don't have any fish that would be considered really soft water fish, but I do admit to keeping fish in water that is harder than the top of their stated range.


Offline Dr Um

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Re: Hello everyone
« Reply #10 on: July 23, 2017, 02:05:51 PM »
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Thanks so much  for the advice.  When I tested the pH of our water, it came out as 7.6 using the API pH test and 7.4 using the high range test.  So, I'm assuming it's probably somewhere in-between...  Having looked on the Seriously Fish website (which is fab, thanks) for fish that suit our pH and GH, it would appear that Cherry Barbs, which I love the look of, look very suitable (as Sue mentioned), along with perhaps some tetra varieties such as X-ray or Bloodfin.  I am now thinking though that it's probably best to just go with what the water will best support, so I'm considering guppies, even though I originally wanted to steer clear of livebearers.  Is it possible to just have either males or females to remove the breeding dilemma?  Would the cherry barbs nip them?  It seems that they're not as aggressive as other barbs, but I want to be as sure as possible before potentially combining them with other fish.

Littlefish - I had also read that perhaps water parameters aren't so much of an issue as they could be due to the water the fish are reared in, but I think I'd still rather play it safe and stick as close to their natural parameters as I can.

Sue - you're right about being given duff advice in shops: both that I have been to so far to do some research have told me I can add fish after a few days!

Offline Sue

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Re: Hello everyone
« Reply #11 on: July 23, 2017, 02:24:45 PM »
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Can I suggest all male endlers rather than guppies. http://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/poecilia-wingei/ They don't have the long flowing tails that guppies have, and are less likely to get fin-nipped by other fish. Some fish just can't help themselves when they see long flowing fins, and bloodfin tetras are in this group. Endlers may be small but they are brightly coloured which makes up for their lack of size. Endlers in shops are actually endler-guppy hybrids rather than pure endler, and they come in a variety of different colours and patterns.
If you don't mind small fish, how about emerald rasboras http://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/celestichthys-erythromicron/

Offline fcmf

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Re: Hello everyone
« Reply #12 on: July 23, 2017, 04:33:43 PM »
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I would echo Sue's advice about the endlers rather than guppies. X-ray tetras, which I have, have a lesser-known reputation for being rather fin-nippy too and would most likely make a beeline for guppies' long flowing fins, so endlers would be a better choice than guppies as tankmates for them (provided that water and temperature requirements are compatible). However, cherry barbs do sound like a very good choice; as I understand it, they are very peaceful (although, with any fish, there's always the possibility of a rogue fish among them - there's at least one such harlequin rasbora among mine). Also, if you decided to get shrimp at any stage (eg later down the line), then I'd imagine the cherry barbs and endlers would be a better option with them.

With livebearing fish such as endlers, females do store sperm and if they've been in the presence of males even for a very small period of time, could continue giving birth several times for 6 months, so a female-only set of endlers may not guarantee no babies.

I saw some emerald rasboras, which Sue mentions, recently - they are beautiful. You might also find this helpful for some additional suggestions: https://forums.thinkfish.co.uk/new-fishkeepers/list-of-fish-suitable-for-high-ph-and-hard-water/msg27326/#msg27326

Hope that helps.

Offline Dr Um

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Re: Hello everyone
« Reply #13 on: July 23, 2017, 07:40:20 PM »
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Brilliant thanks - like the idea of all-male endlers and cherry barbs.  I'm guessing if the endlers are like guppies, they would stay nearer the top of the tank with the barbs occupying the middle to lower half?  They're both pretty small too, which would mean we could get quite a decent quantity of each.  The emerald rasboras are absolutely beautiful, but the 20+ numbers recommended on Seriously Fish would seriously limit how many other fish we could put in the 125l tank, I think.

Offline Matt

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Re: Hello everyone
« Reply #14 on: July 23, 2017, 07:45:01 PM »
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I would think a group of 10 would be absolutely fine given some hiding areas in the tank.

Also lookup celestial pearl danios as an alternative... but note that the two should not be mixed!

Offline Sue

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Re: Hello everyone
« Reply #15 on: July 23, 2017, 09:05:44 PM »
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I have had both cherry barbs and endlers (though with my soft water I should not have had endlers  :-[ ). I found the cherry barbs did a lot of grazing from the bottom of the tank looking for tiny bits of left over food, while the male endlers spent most of their time mid level, displaying to one another. Female endlers behave more like cherry barbs but male livebearers have one track minds. The male endlers I had would spend time displaying to each other which consisted of bending their bodies sideways into a curve, flaring out their fins and sort of twitching. They also liked to play chase - a group of them would chase after one endler, then they'd turn around and chase another. But they never made contact or hurt each other.
As for cherry barbs, there is a colour variant in which the males are orange and the females yellow, both with red eyes. I got my albinos from Maidenhead Aquatics.

Offline Littlefish

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Re: Hello everyone
« Reply #16 on: July 24, 2017, 07:17:48 AM »
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@Dr Um it is a good idea to go for fish that are suitable for your water parameters.
I started with some slightly inaccurate advice from P@H which saw me starting with v. platies and zebra danio, which were fine for my water parameters, but the advice I was given on tank size and fish numbers was not great.
Since then I found this forum, followed links from here, and found a huge world of fishy fabulousness that I just couldn't resist.  :-[  ;D

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