Tropical Fish Forum
Tropical Fish Keeping Help and Advice => New Fishkeepers => Topic started by: jesnon on April 14, 2013, 10:58:14 PM
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I realise I've already talked about this several times now - but I figured I'm make a more obvious thread and see what people thought / compile all the information into one convenient place!
My tank is a 23l fluval edge with 8 endlers in
All my parameters have so far been really stable - every time I've measured they've been 0ppm ammonia, 0ppm nitrite and nitrate has always been about the same as my tap so somewhere between 0 and 20ppm.
However it's still really early days yet - I've had my fish around 2 weeks now (wow time goes fast!)
I remember being recommended the cherry red as a started shrimp, though my boyfriend was really annoyed about how small they were when I showed him a picture earlier!
Also any advice on looking after shrimps would be appreciated!
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They need hiding places so they can moult safely as they're 'soft' after a moult. Mine like it underneath the bog-wood (which I've got propped up at the back so there is a definite underneath).
They seem to like safety in numbers. With just five I didn't see much of them, but now there're ten then they're much more out-going.
Apart from that then they've taken no looking after at all. The tank's mature enough to provide all the food they need without buying special shrimp food.
Ignore the boyfriend - always best! ;D ;D
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It's a question of hardiness, size and prettiness.
Ghost shrimps and amano shrimp are pretty hardy, but they are colourless (well, amanos have dark red spots down their sides). Ghost shrimp would be OK if you don't mind shrimps it'll be hard to spot. I would not get amanos though. I have 3, a female and 2 male. Yes, they are small when you get them but they grow. The males are about the same size as my endlers, maybe a bit bigger, but the female is the second largest creature in my 125 litre. She's bigger than the honey gouramis, the dwarf chain loaches and about twice the size of the male endlers. The only thing bigger than her is the male cockatoo apisto. Although she's not touched any fish while I've been watching, she is in a tank somewhat larger than yours so they aren't pushed together by lack of space. I wouldn't risk amanos.
Cherry shrimps are hardy and pretty, but small. They grow to about endler size. I've had a few in my 50 litre for 3 weeks. Don't let your boyfriend be put off by the size they are in the shop and they will grow a lot bigger than that. Depending where you go, some cherries are redder than others - like fish, I think they are being bred to intensify colour these days.
Crystal red, crystal black, etc are much less hardy so I would avoid these for your first shrimp.
Don't get any shrimp with long arms. They will grow quite big and eat your endlers. Anything with arms and claws on the end of them will take down small fish. You'll find these shrimp mis-labelled as algae shrimp.
As Colin says, you need decor for them to hide in. I've never fed my amanos, they compete with the fish for their food, even running away with a bit of food in their 'arms'. Admittedly I haven't had the cherry shrimps very long (bought them 23/3/13) but I've had the amanos for ages (bought 18/2/09) - maybe that's why the female is so big. I did lose one of them last year, a female, but the other 3 are still going strong.
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Haha wow - I hadn't realised if I got shrimps too big they would eat my fish! There was me worrying about the opposite problem ha. I am more inclined towards the cherry red shrimp - they seem pretty cute to me and endler size seems in suiting with the tank. I saw a shrimp in a pet store labelled 'santa shrimp' - is that a different type of shrimp entirely? That was what he was basing the shrimp being small on originally. I think he was just sulking because we were hoping to have marine fish originally ^^; I am quite keen to do a marine setup but it sounds very complicated and confusing... I'm not sure I'm quite ready to handle that yet! Will see how my current tank does and maybe after we move house we can get a marine tank (http://www.thinkfish.co.uk/marines/cost)! (Will be looking to this forum for lots of advice RE: moving tank, but that won't be for quite a while yet!)
RE: hiding places I've got lots of fake plants, stones, and one of my pieces of bogwood has a little 'cave' type section to it (one of the reasons I bought it) - thought my endlers sometimes swim under that so perhaps not an ideal spot for hiding! There's a little bit of algae on the rocks in my tank, and my endlers are always picking at the gravel... but I can't see much in the way of food. I wouldn't mind buying food to feed them though, I know the LFS I got my blue endlers from has shrimp food and they were selling almond leaves for shrimp (not entirely sure what these are!)
Had a quick google of the ghost shrimp - they're quite cool looking but I think you're right that I'd prefer something more colourful! The crystal red are gorgeous looking things, but yes definitely don't want to kill off my shrimp so will be avoiding the temptation of these! Wow I had no idea shrimp lived for that long too... actually come to think of it I never asked how long my endlers would live for! :-(
It's looking like the cherries are my best option. In the Maidenhead near to me they had in stock recently wood shrimp (I think they're huge though), green, orange and red shrimp. Are they generally hardy as well or are they a different kettle of... shrimp?? (actually looking at the photos I took a few weeks ago in Maidenhead all these shrimp did seem bigger than the ones I saw yesterday!)
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This is the web-site I use for shrimpy facts'n'figures (Clickety click (http://www.planetinverts.com/shrimp_species.html)).
I know what you mean about marine shrimps. MrsB and I were in MA on Sunday and they had some Fire Shrimps in the marine section. They were huge, (this seems to be roughly life-sized):
(https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRh54z2TITHPAuHLxxn1k92DPO6uAZ1oAkzPT3zrpD9dNKk80p1)
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Yeah we were originally planning on getting black and white clown fish and the shrimp we saw were 'cleaner shrimp' - huge!
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I've thought about a move to the salty-side somewhere in the future and have spent a few hours googling around and reading stuff. It's basically the same...... except there's very little wiggle room for the water parameters. Freshwater fish come from rivers etc which flood, dry up a bit, get sediment, rain etc. so they're very adaptable to different conditions. Marine fish live in a very stable environment and they've never had to adapt to changes - so they can't.
Here's someone who's made a marine tank (http://www.thinkfish.co.uk/marines/cost) out of a Fluval Edge - I thought it might interest you. (Clickety click (http://www.ultimatereef.net/forums/showthread.php?t=491733))
Clownfish back right. You could probably keep a bonded pair in a 46 litre Edge.
(http://www.ultimatereef.net/uploader/2011Q3/Edge3.jpg)
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Oh wow that is cool! Yeah marine tank (http://www.thinkfish.co.uk/marines/cost)s do sound quite scary - though apparently clownfish are rated as 'easy' (?! Is there such a thing with a marine setup!).
That website is really helpful Colin, think I shall be getting some cherry red! Just how many is the new question!
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Cherry or sometimes Cherry Red shrimp are Neocaridina Heteropoda var Red. This means that they are a red variety of Neocaridina Heteropoda. There are loads of other colour varieties of this species around including Yellow, Red & White, Green, Orange and Yellow and Black and others. You can get whatever takes your fancy or that you can find, but don't mix them as they will interbreed. The Santa Shrimp you saw was probably a red and white version of Neocaridina Heteropoda.
There are some larger species available but the only ones I know of that are significantly bigger are filter feeding shrimps and you should avoid these. The Wood Shrimp is a filter feeder. (This doesn't mean they eat your filter, rather they have 'fans' on the end of their arms with which they filter microrganisms from the water).
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Since shrimp don't have a very big bioload, you could fit half a dozen.
There are two other shrimpy sites besides Colin's this one (http://www.petshrimp.com/shrimpspecies.php) and this one (http://ukshrimp.co.uk/species-profiles/)
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Hmm I thought I had replied to these posts but looks like I didn't - sorry about that! Thanks for the information guys, I'm trying to be patient and wait a few more weeks until I get my little shrimpies (half a dozen sounds great to me!). Watch this space!
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I'm considering getting my shrimpies in the next few weeks or so - do you think this is a good idea or is it still too soon? All of my levels have so far been great, though I realised the other day I might have been doing a little excessive water changes! I've been doing between 20-25% water changes twice a week, I think it should be smaller than this right if I'm doing twice a week? I think I need to start writing it down so I can keep a better track, sounds silly I know but it's hard to remember when I've done water changes and what I've been feeding as I can't stick to a specific day regime as a shift worker!
I don't think I'll be adding a new fish to replace Madge, but only have 7 endlers does make me a little sad! I'm not sure if I did add another endler what type it would be - either bringing up the 'traditional' endler numbers or the Japanese blue numbers. Hmm
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Hiya Jesnon.
D'you want them to breed? If so then Red Cherry Shrimps are often touted as 'best buy'. I started with 5 and a while later I had 10. I'm really not sure how many I have now - too many hiding places for them. MrsB thinks they're great and my fish don't bother them at all.
I know some forum members have Amano shrimp so you'll no doubt hear from them soon.
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I'm an amano owner ;D
The main downside to amanos is their lack of colour - see-though grey with dark red spots (males) or dashes (females) down their sides. Cherries are a lot prettier. I have some of those as well, got them about a month ago.
The other possible problem with amanos is their size. My males are maybe a tad bigger than a male endler, but the female is a lot bigger. She doesn't show any interest in the fish, but this is a 125 litre tank with plenty of room for them to get away from each other.
If it were me, I'd go for cherries. Prettier and smaller.
Don't forget to acclimate them carefully, even more so than fish. Float the bag, wait 15 mins to equilibrate the temp then add a small amount of tank water to the bag every 10 mins for an hour. Then net them out of the bag. But be warned, shrimp can be awkward things in nets. They can, and do, jump out of them. Get a shrimp right into the bottom of the net, then get hold of the net as near the rim as you can and squeeze it closed to stop the shrimp escaping. Take your hand away when the net is under water. It is possible to pick a shrimp up off the floor but it's not easy.
Water changes - 25 - 30% a week is fine for an established tank. And anything that makes life easier is worth doing, such as making a note of the days you do water changes.
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Amano owner here too, I have 9. Would now prefer Cherries.
The main downside to amanos is their lack of colour
Poo, or rather the Amano's poo an awful lot if they have too much to eat. As they are a lot bigger than Cherries, the amount of poo is bound to be greater. I'd definately go for Cherries if I had a choice now. In fact, as I'm keeping my old 64 Ltr (oh heck, MTS), I think I'll be getting a few in there.
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Ahh but if you also have nerite snails, you don't notice the amanos' poo ;D
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No! Please! Not again! Can we please, please, not get into poo again!
I too would go for one of the colourful varieties of neocaridina heteropoda. Cherries are the easiest and cheapest to get hold of. But there lots of others. Amanos, given their [lack of] colour can be difficult to see and with the heteropoda you get the added benefit of them being able to breed.
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Haha yes we'll try and avoid another poo conversation!
Colin - I'm not too bothered about breeding, as my tank is quite small, so I imagine if they breed too much I might have to donate them to others / my LFS if they'll take them.
I'm pretty much decided on the 'heteropoda' as Steve officially calls them :-) The MA down the road actually had some orange ones, and green I think as well as cherry red. The orange ones were pretty cute, though not quite as bright so I would guess it's between them and the cherry red ones - both are regularly in stock so depending on my timing won't be too hard to get hold of. I know the shop I got my Blue endlers from has shrimp food etc so for the start of keeping them I might try that as I don't know how much food there is in the tank (though my endlers are constantly foraging around).
Sue thanks for the advice about acclimatising and adding them to the tank - sounds pretty complicated and stressful (or at least the netting part!). Stupid question but with the adding water to the bag - how do you do this? I've never been able to get the bags open apart from ripping them which wouldn't work when adding extra water I guess.
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What I do depends on how they are closed. If it's the elastic band method, that's easy. The knotted ones are more difficult. If I can get the knot untied, good. But usually I can't so I cut the bag just under the knot. That does reduce the bag size but not by too much.
My MA uses round bottomed bags and it can be very tricky getting fish etc out of the bag with a square net.
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Stupid question but with the adding water to the bag - how do you do this? I've never been able to get the bags open apart from ripping them which wouldn't work when adding extra water I guess.
I just untie the knot. It takes a bit of fiddling around though, and you need strong fingers. The best way if you can't undo the knot, is to cut it off with scissors. Then fold down the top a few times; that will create a sort of flotation ring. I then peg it to the side of the tank to prevent it going on a whirlygig tour. Then Bob's your uncle.
(Whoops... See Sue agrees!!! )
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Great minds, Steve ;D
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Thanks for the tips guys, think I'll be getting some new shrimpy additions tomorrow!
I was hoping to get another fish or some shrimp today. There were some lovely endlers in the Pets at Home near to me and quite a lot of females too which I hadn't seen before, but there was a dead one in the tank being eaten by some other fish and one had all black large eyes so I was rather put off buying from there! Then the MA was closed before I could get there :-( I finish at 3 tomorrow though, so I'm heading to the MA and seeing if they've got any shrimp. I'll probably buy plants at the same time - when you say leave them in a bucket of water and change it daily Sue - does this need to be dechlorinated or will they be fine in tapwater? I don't really know how aquatic plants work in terms of needing dechlorinated water or not!
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To be honest, I don't know :-\
I would use dechlorinated water, certainly for the last soak before going in the tank - a bucket doesn't hold that much water so you won't use all your dechlorinator and with the last one it's beter to make sure no chlorine goes in the tank with the plants.
The MA I use usually has cherry shrimps. I got some from there. Though they didn't today. I have to look at the fish whenever we go to that garden centre, and husband wanted some veg seeds........
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I think I'll use dechlorinated then just to be on the safe side :) The last time I was in the MA there were a few colour varieties of the 'cherry' shrimp including orange and green, so I'm hoping they definitely will have some. I'm happy with either orange or the tradition cherry red ones! If not I'll at least get the plants and have a peek at the fish (they've had the 'green' endlers, or 'tiger endlers' like you have Sue every time I've been in too). I'm also hoping they might get their fish from the same place as the pretty endler pic and have some 'normal' endlers too. I can't stop wanting that one in the pic!
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Right! Today I went to MA after my shift.... and got myself 6 cherry red shrimps! They are so cute and settling in well. They were surprisingly easy to catch and release into the aquarium and acclimatising was easier than I thought, and they've been happily chomping their way around my tank since. Everyone seems happy so far! The most interaction I've seen is one of my endlers doing their little dance next to the shrimp. Otherwise they seem to be happily ignoring each others existence! I also bought two plants which are sitting in buckets waiting to be ready for the tank.
It looks like I've either got 1 female and 5 males, or 2 females. One is completely clear so I'm assuming it's female, the other has some colour but is mostly clear so I'm not sure?
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Shrimps are fascinating little things ;D
With cherry shrimps, the females are more coloured than the males.
Be prepared - in order to grow they have to shed their skins. Don't panic if you see what looks like a transparent dead shrimp, it's most likely to be a shed skin.
And a female produces eggs right after she moults. Not every time, but post-moult is the only time. When she's ready to mate she will release a pheromone and all the males will go charging round the tank looking for her. It can be quite alarming the first time you see shrimps whizzing all over the tank ;D
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They really are! They're just so cute, I love how they look like they're doing doggy paddle when they swim and the little cleaning actions they do. Fingers crossed my new little additions will be OK!
Ooh I didn't realise that! So the clear one is more likely to be a male? I've read they often 'redden up' once they've settled in anyway so I guess it's harder to tell males from females anyway? Confusing!
Ha thanks for the warnings Sue, I'll try not to be horrified when I see the first 'dead' shrimp! Sounds like it could be quite entertaining to watch! I thought I'd already lost one earlier but I found him / her sitting on one of my fake plants. Looks like that's their 'spot' as they're still there now! The MA had the red cherries, orange, green and some huge shrimps. I was tempted by the orange ones but the red ones won me over in the end! They were refitting their marine section though so I didn't get to have a nose at those.
The LFS with the beautiful coloured endlers.... I'm hoping to go get another one on Thursday morning to bring my numbers up to 8. Would that be a bad idea after adding shrimp already this week? I just really can't resist getting one when they're so pretty and it sounds like they're selling out fast! The shop owner said they have a lot of very pretty males in so I'm keen to go and try and get one as like the one in the picture as possible!
I also bought some shrimp food just in case there isn't enough for them to chomp on. Hopefully they'll be OK though but I'll feed them a little just in case. My endlers are getting increasingly frustrated as I keep staring in at the shrimp without feeding them ha.
Sorry for the essay, as you can probably tell I'm a little excited about my new additions!
One shrimp related question - when it comes to doing the water changes, I'm hoping these guys are more shy than my endlers!? Is it tricky to gravel clean with them in the tank?
I can't wait to get my plants in too!
Today in the MA they had some of the 'green' endlers I have, but it also looked like they had some other endlers which weren't labelled. There were some really tiny babies, some of the grey / whiteish females and a couple of males which were a really nice aquamarine colour on their tales. Perhaps they were just baby guppies, but they definitely seemed more endler like to me... Still, none of them were as pretty as the one at the other shop so I'm holding out hope of getting one like him!
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One shrimp related question - when it comes to doing the water changes, I'm hoping these guys are more shy than my endlers!? Is it tricky to gravel clean with them in the tank?
It's a challenge if you take the guard off the end (if you have one). I was hoovering up some poo from the surface of the sand once and an Amano swam right up the tube, taking a into the waste bucket. Little chap was not happy one bit and it took me a few minutes to catch him as he was racing around the bucket. ::)
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It's a challenge if you take the guard off the end (if you have one). I was hoovering up some poo from the surface of the sand once and an Amano swam right up the tube, taking a into the waste bucket. Little chap was not happy one bit and it took me a few minutes to catch him as he was racing around the bucket. ::)
Oh dear! I'm clumsy enough as it is so I'm hoping for not too many siphon-shrimp related disasters! I already panicked enough when I first added the shrimp and couldn't see them in the tank and thought that they'd leapt to their deaths somewhere... oh and don't get my started on when I first put the bag into the tank....
I took the brown paper bag out and to my panic it was dripping and suddenly the fish bag fell the whole way through. In a blind panic I shoved the bag into the tank since the bag was dripping too and I thought somehow there was a leak... which resulted in some soggy brown paper bag floating around my tank, so I had to turn everything off and retrieve that before I could sort my shrimp out properly. Oddly once I'd acclimatised them and took the bag out it didn't seem to be leaking at all so I'm really not sure what happened there!? It was probably just some water left from the bag floating in the tank whilst the lady caught the shrimps for me!
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Are we really back on to poo? ;D
On the subject of siphoning the gravel, one of my guppies went on a white water adventure last water change. He whizzed along the tube right out in to the bucket :o . He seems to have survived his trip well enough though. :D
Resa
:)
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Shrimps don't react the same way as fish to the siphon tube. Fish either run for cover or try to eat it. Shrimps just sit there and carry on regardless. If you carefully touch the shrimp with the side of the tube, they do get the hint and move off that piece of gravel that you want to clean but pinch the tube first so you don't accidentally suck it up. They do cling to the underside of decor, so be careful when getting close - or move it out of the way.
I've never seen shrimps in my nearest MA (the smallest one); the one a bit further away only has red ones (when they have any!) and the one at York had several types of shrimp last time I was there but we don't get there very often. I got my ammanos from there 4 years ago.
If you ever get a bigger tank, be careful with the larger shrimps. Look at their arms - if they only just reach their mouths, they are OK (ghost or amanos) but if they have long arms, don't buy as they can and will catch small fish (though there are reports of amanos doing the same). And filter feeders (the one with fans instead of hands) are tricky to keep alive as they are specialised feeders.
Shrimps add very little to the bioload. You got the shrimps on Monday so it should be OK to get another endler on Thursday. Just test your water to be safe.
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Sorry Sue I was sure I'd thanked you for that post!
Quick question.. my guests have been playing 'spot the shrimp' all weekend and apparently yesterday could only spot 5. I've had the same problem this morning... Should I be worried? all other shrimps seem happy, in fact I caught one running around with food and another standing its ground and grabbing some food against an endler. I just did a quick water change but have guests still so nothing too intensive
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If you can't find a corpse or even a dried up shrimp on the floor, it should still be alive. They are masters at hiding. Shrimps can escape through small holes and go for a walk across your floor. They can get a surprisingly long way.
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Excellent news on getting shrimps. They're fascinating!
I have absolutely no idea how many shrimps I have now as they seem to take it in turns to hide. If one is moulting then it will hide away for a while, so I wouldn't worry about not seeing them all. I've got at least two tiny little shrimpettes somewhere in the tank at the mo' - I just hope they're too big for the barbs to eat. :P
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Thanks guys! That's a relief.
Yeah they really are entertaining little things and so cute! my friends seemed to like them too, though there were a lot of jokes along the lines of 'mm tasty'!
I saw a shrimp shell the other day so I suspect he has now gone into hiding. New fish is settling in well too happily swimming with the others. Will try and get a photo of his true colours on my days off :-)
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I'll probably plant my plants soon too... Decisions on where to put them!
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I'm still concerned about shrimp number 6...
My shrimp spend a lot of time on their own, but equally they love flocking together every now and then which they were doing this morning. I could only count 5 again. And yesterday during the water change / planting escapades I moved all the wood and rocks they could have been hiding under and couldn't see any signs of shrimp. No signs outside of the tank of a dead shrimp either though... so where has it gone!? My tank is only small so surely they can't be that good at hiding!?
I saw a shrimp climbing up the heater and suddenly thought maybe 'Shrimp 6' could have climbed up along the wire out of the tank... but my tank has that black grated lid so I don't know where it could have gone if that were the case.
I've spotted the clearish shrimp, so it's one of the more colourful ones that has gone missing. Very odd...
Also, whilst I was doing the water change and fiddling about in the tank one of the shrimp decided to crawl onto my hand! It was very cute but I was wondering whether that's bad for them?? I always wash my hands thoroughly before putting them in the tank and then rinse the again to get off any soap so I'm hoping it's fine!
My new fish 'Ace' is super speedy and always dashing about in the tank so I'm still yet to get a good shot of him that show all his colours properly. It's even more difficult as his colours are better in certain lights too
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So the last few days I've now only been able to count 4 shrimp :'( Not sure what's going on as all residents including shrimp seem well, and I haven't even found any sign of the two missing shrimp. The remaining shrimp are all quite big now and very red, except for the male one. Don't know what I can do to stop further shrimp deaths / disappearances..
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I'm afraid I can't help you with this one, Jesnon. I've lost all six of the bright red ones, and in the last few days, I've found two dead adults of the not-quite-so-bright red ones, and half a juvenile. I dread looking in the tank in a morning :(
I have no idea what is happening. Since I only found half a juvenile, the head end had obviously been eaten by either the pygmy cories or the endlers. And one of the adults was inside a piece of decor - I've started doing a daily check. Since you haven't found any bodies, maybe your endlers are capable of eating dead shrimp before you find them.
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Sorry Sue :( I wonder what is happening with our shrimps? I normally do a headcount whenever I look at the tank, and I did a waterchange yesterday but could see no sign of shrimps aside from the 4 ones accounted for...
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Oh...really sorry about your shrimpies, guys. I hope you get to the bottom of it. :(
Resa
:(