Author Topic: Very clumsy tank cycling - not sure what point i'm at or what to do next? (Read 8049 times) 22 replies

Debadog · « **on:** November 04, 2016, 09:52:28 AM »

Hello everyone,

So I've essentially undertaken the most clumsy and inexact cycling method ever. I wasn't checking it properly and for a long time the ammonia just sat there and did nothing (3 weeks) so I got frustrated and stopped paying close attention. I now think it probably did nothing because I might have initially overdosed the ammonia, stalling the process.

I did a water change a week ago to get the ammonia to 1ppm. It then continued to do nothing so I added ammonia back up to 4ppm. Then this is what happened:

1 November
Ammonia = 4ppm
Nitrite = 0.25ppm
Nitrate 20ppm + (likely from tap water levels)

2 November
Ammonia = 2ppm
Didn't bother measuring the others

3 November
Ammonia = 1ppm (I then added ammonia to get it back up to 4ppm)
Nitrite = 5ppm
Nitrate = 40ppm+

So now I'm not really sure what to do. Nitrite and Nitrate have both suddenly spiked. I'm suddenly thinking that adding ammonia yesterday was probably not the correct thing to do, I'm considering doing a water change?
I can't follow the usual instructions as i've done this so haphazardly. Do I stop adding ammonia and just monitor? Are there levels at which I should do a water change to make sure the cycle doesn't stall?

Thanks!

Hampalong · « **Reply #1 on:** November 04, 2016, 12:13:58 PM »

Do nothing for now, it's going well. You're getting nitrites and nitrates so both bacteria are up and running. Do a water change (as much as you like) to stop nitrites going above 15, or to stop the pH from falling below 6-6.5

Apart from that just wait, and add ammonia if it goes to zero.

When you add ammonia at zero and a day later it has all turned to nitrates you're cycled.

Welcome to the forum.

Littlefish · « **Reply #2 on:** November 04, 2016, 01:05:16 PM »

Hey Debadog - is that you from the caudata forum?
I'm Donna001.

Seriously, if the guys here can't sort out your cycling then nobody can.
Looking at what Hampalong has said you're doing fine.

Sue · « **Reply #3 on:** November 04, 2016, 01:55:44 PM »

Hi Debadog

It sounds as though you are following the old method of fishless which involves topping up ammonia every time it falls below 1ppm. There is a newer method which doesn't do that and this method is usually more successful.

With the old method it was assumed the bacteria would starve if they weren't fed; it is now known this isn't true, they can go several days without coming to harm. The old method adds so much ammonia that nitrite goes above the 15 ppm that Hampalong mentioned, but because our test kits can't measure that high - when they are off the top of the scale they just show the highest colour - we have no idea how high the nitrite level really is, and the new method is designed to stop nitrite ever getting that high.

You don't mention the volume of your tank, but unless it is huge I would suggest emptying all the water and refilling it. This will get both ammonia and nitrite down to zero (assuming they are zero in your tap water)

Then add just 3 ppm ammonia not 4 (as fully stocked tanks don't make as much as 3 ppm in 24 hours) and follow the method here.
Since you have already grown some ammonia eaters I would suggest testing every two days instead of 3 till you reach point #6, then follow the method exactly.

Debadog · « **Reply #4 on:** November 04, 2016, 04:04:47 PM »

Quote from: hampalong on November 04, 2016, 12:13:58 PM

Do nothing for now, it's going well. You're getting nitrites and nitrates so both bacteria are up and running. Do a water change (as much as you like) to stop nitrites going above 15, or to stop the pH from falling below 6-6.5

Apart from that just wait, and add ammonia if it goes to zero.

When you add ammonia at zero and a day later it has all turned to nitrates you're cycled.

Welcome to the forum.

Thanks for the welcome + advice

So say I did a 50% water change right now and the nitrite level fell by a lot, will that affect the cycle? Does the nitrite level need to be high, or will it just continue to be high as long as I'm adding ammonia? I have done a lot of research on cycling but the actual biological process thats happening is still baffling to me...

And secondly, when ammonia hits zero should I add it up to 3ppm each time or less than that?

Debadog · « **Reply #5 on:** November 04, 2016, 04:06:26 PM »

Quote from: Littlefish on November 04, 2016, 01:05:16 PM

Hey Debadog - is that you from the caudata forum?
I'm Donna001.
Seriously, if the guys here can't sort out your cycling then nobody can.
Looking at what Hampalong has said you're doing fine.

Looks like you caught me! I clicked the link you attached on the other forum about cycling which led me to here. I figured i'd bothered the nice axolotl people about cycling enough so it was time to harass some other unwitting victims!

Debadog · « **Reply #6 on:** November 04, 2016, 04:13:21 PM »

Quote from: Sue on November 04, 2016, 01:55:44 PM

Hi Debadog

It sounds as though you are following the old method of fishless which involves topping up ammonia every time it falls below 1ppm. There is a newer method which doesn't do that and this method is usually more successful.

With the old method it was assumed the bacteria would starve if they weren't fed; it is now known this isn't true, they can go several days without coming to harm. The old method adds so much ammonia that nitrite goes above the 15 ppm that Hampalong mentioned, but because our test kits can't measure that high - when they are off the top of the scale they just show the highest colour - we have no idea how high the nitrite level really is, and the new method is designed to stop nitrite ever getting that high.

You don't mention the volume of your tank, but unless it is huge I would suggest emptying all the water and refilling it. This will get both ammonia and nitrite down to zero (assuming they are zero in your tap water)

Then add just 3 ppm ammonia not 4 (as fully stocked tanks don't make as much as 3 ppm in 24 hours) and follow the method here.
Since you have already grown some ammonia eaters I would suggest testing every two days instead of 3 till you reach point #6, then follow the method exactly.

Its a fairly small tank, 64L (14 gallons I think?) and yes, ammonia and nitrite are zero in my tap water, I just have a lingering 20ppm or so of nitrates.

If I empty out the whole lot of water will that affect the cycling or is the spike in nitrites just a byproduct of bacteria i've already grown? Is the nitrite itself not actually contributing to the cycle, but rather just an indicator of what's happening with bacteria growth? I thought because i'd already had a nitrite/nitrate spike I was much further along the cycle than starting at the beginning with the methodology you linked?

Cheers!

Hampalong · « **Reply #7 on:** November 04, 2016, 05:22:36 PM »

Changing water won't affect the cycle. Just remember to redose with ammonia.

It doesn't matter how much you add, anything between 1ppm and 5ppm will be fine (even 1ppm is more than your tank full of fish will produce). The bacteria can go a few days without ammonia, but this will only slow the cycle.

I would always advise that your tests are done every day, even twice a day if you feel like it. Cycling is a learning process, after all. The more closely you follow it the better.

Littlefish · « **Reply #8 on:** November 04, 2016, 05:46:30 PM »

Quote from: Debadog on November 04, 2016, 04:06:26 PM

Looks like you caught me! I clicked the link you attached on the other forum about cycling which led me to here. I figured i'd bothered the nice axolotl people about cycling enough so it was time to harass some other unwitting victims!

Axolotl or fish, tank cycling is tank cycling, and I've posted the link a few times on the caudata forum because I felt that the link and the advice here contained more detail and was easier to follow.
Great to see you here.

Sue · « **Reply #9 on:** November 04, 2016, 07:01:24 PM »

The new method of fishless cycling is actually faster than the add-ammonia-every-time-it-drops-below-1 ppm method. That's because with the new method nitrite can never go above 15 ppm, whilst levels way in excess of 15 ppm are common with the older method and that slows the cycle right down. Nitrite above 15 ppm inhibits the growth of the nitrite eaters.

100% new water won't affect the cycle as the bacteria you want to grow live attached to surfaces. There are virtually none floating in the water.

The nitrogen cycle is this.

Fish make ammonia, it is their version of urine. In a cycled tank there is a colony of bacteria that live on the surfaces in the tank, but lots of them live in the filter because the media is designed to have a huge surface area. These bacteria use ammonia as food, and their waste is nitrite. There is a second colony of bacteria living on all the surfaces in the tank which eats nitrite and their waste is nitrate. In a tank, there are no bacteria that eat nitrate so we do water changes to remove it.
The nitrogen cycle is fish -> ammonia -> nitrite -> nitrate.

A new tank has none of these bacteria so we need to grow 2 sets of bacteria, one to eat the ammonia made by the fish and the second to eat the nitrite made by the first bacteria. This process of growing bacteria is called cycling.
When we add ammonia, the few ammonia eating bacteria in tap water can get started multiplying right away. They multiply by splitting in two every 12 to 24 hours. Because there are so few it takes a long time to make any impact on the ammonia. The splits make more bacteria like this - 1 to 2, then to 4, then to 8, then to 16, 32, 64, 128, 256 etc. As you can see, once they start multiplying the numbers build up quickly but it takes a few weeks to make billions of them.
The nitrite eaters can only get started once the ammonia eaters have made some nitrite, and they multiply slower than the ammonia eaters. So ammonia starts to drop after a few weeks but nitrite takes longer to drop.

I fishlessly cycled a sponge filter this spring using the new method. The ammonia reading did not change until the 28th day after adding the first dose, and the cycle finished on day 48.

If fish keeping teaches us one thing, it's patience

Littlefish · « **Reply #10 on:** November 04, 2016, 07:13:34 PM »

Debadog had some mature media to seed the filter, so should have small amounts of all the bacteria available for cycling, so what would be the way forward now? Add 3ppm ammonia and see how long it takes for everything to get to 0?

The reason why 4ppm ammonia was mentioned earlier is because that's the level suggested on the caudata site for cycling an axolotl tank. They produce quite a lot of waste.

Sue · « **Reply #11 on:** November 04, 2016, 07:19:13 PM »

Ah so axies are messy things

That's understandable then to use 4 ppm.
But if this tank is for fish them 3ppm is plenty.

With seeding media, still follow the method in the Filtration and Cycling section but expect things to happen quickly.

Debadog · « **Reply #12 on:** November 04, 2016, 09:30:21 PM »

Quote from: Sue on November 04, 2016, 07:01:24 PM

The new method of fishless cycling is actually faster than the add-ammonia-every-time-it-drops-below-1 ppm method. That's because with the new method nitrite can never go above 15 ppm, whilst levels way in excess of 15 ppm are common with the older method and that slows the cycle right down. Nitrite above 15 ppm inhibits the growth of the nitrite eaters.

100% new water won't affect the cycle as the bacteria you want to grow live attached to surfaces. There are virtually none floating in the water.

The nitrogen cycle is this.

Fish make ammonia, it is their version of urine. In a cycled tank there is a colony of bacteria that live on the surfaces in the tank, but lots of them live in the filter because the media is designed to have a huge surface area. These bacteria use ammonia as food, and their waste is nitrite. There is a second colony of bacteria living on all the surfaces in the tank which eats nitrite and their waste is nitrate. In a tank, there are no bacteria that eat nitrate so we do water changes to remove it.
The nitrogen cycle is fish -> ammonia -> nitrite -> nitrate.

A new tank has none of these bacteria so we need to grow 2 sets of bacteria, one to eat the ammonia made by the fish and the second to eat the nitrite made by the first bacteria. This process of growing bacteria is called cycling.
When we add ammonia, the few ammonia eating bacteria in tap water can get started multiplying right away. They multiply by splitting in two every 12 to 24 hours. Because there are so few it takes a long time to make any impact on the ammonia. The splits make more bacteria like this - 1 to 2, then to 4, then to 8, then to 16, 32, 64, 128, 256 etc. As you can see, once they start multiplying the numbers build up quickly but it takes a few weeks to make billions of them.
The nitrite eaters can only get started once the ammonia eaters have made some nitrite, and they multiply slower than the ammonia eaters. So ammonia starts to drop after a few weeks but nitrite takes longer to drop.

I fishlessly cycled a sponge filter this spring using the new method. The ammonia reading did not change until the 28th day after adding the first dose, and the cycle finished on day 48.

If fish keeping teaches us one thing, it's patience

That was a really excellent, clear explanation, thank you so much! Although I knew about all 3 nitrogen forms being part of the cycle I didn't really understand the connection between them, it makes a lot more sense now. My ammonia is dropping quite quickly after adding as I measured it again tonight and its gone from 4ppm to 1ppm overnight, so hopefully i'm a little closer to the end than I thought, but I'll tryyyy to be patient (its really not one of my strong suits!) I will take your advice and replace the water to make sure the nitrites don't get too high though, as the reading is definitely off the charts and nitrate is getting pretty high too.

Hampalong · « **Reply #13 on:** November 05, 2016, 01:04:30 AM »

Quote from: Sue on November 04, 2016, 07:01:24 PM

The new method of fishless cycling is actually faster than the add-ammonia-every-time-it-drops-below-1 ppm method. That's because with the new method nitrite can never go above 15 ppm, whilst levels way in excess of 15 ppm are common with the older method and that slows the cycle right down. Nitrite above 15 ppm inhibits the growth of the nitrite eaters....

I'm not sure why you would let the nitrites go above 15. If you don't, the old method is quicker.

I always use Biomature, which gets ammonia up to 5 and nitrites up to 15 on purpose. The cycle takes two weeks, usually.

Sue · « **Reply #14 on:** November 05, 2016, 09:45:55 AM »

You know about the dangers of high nitrite and would take steps to avoid it. The majority of people starting their first tank and discovering about fishless cycling would not know about high nitrite and would just keep on adding ammonia till nitrite got sky high. The method written up on here is designed for people who are just following a recipe without understanding what is actually going on. If they follow the method, their nitrite can't get high enough to stall their cycle.

Back in 2013 the betta I had then died of lymphocystis. I did not dare risk another betta getting like that so I sterilised the tank and contents with bleach, threw away the sand, plants and filter media, then cycled the tank from scratch before I got another betta. I used the old method, with some variation.
I used just 1 ppm ammonia as 1 betta in 25 litres won't make even that amount.
And every time the nitrite reading reached 5 ppm (the highest on my tester) I did a water change to bring it down.

This cycle took one day longer than the one earlier this year using the new method.

So yes, the add-ammonia-every-time-it-falls-below-1 ppm does work if you know what you are doing. If you don't, the newer method is better.

Sue · « **Reply #15 on:** November 05, 2016, 09:58:08 AM »

@hampalaong Can you tell me more about Biomature? All I can find is that it is made by Waterlife and their website says

Quote

For use in seawater aquaria

Is it really for use in freshwater tanks?

And does the literature with it say what species the two bacteria are? My understanding is that only Tetra Safe Start and Dr Tim's One & Only can legally use nitrospira while the rest use nitrobacter, the use of nitrospira having been copyrighted (or whatever the correct term is).

Matt · « **Reply #16 on:** November 05, 2016, 10:03:58 AM »

Starting to wonder if it is possible to create too much 'beneficial' bacteria (of both types) and what gets released into the water should they die off suddenly... thoughts?

Sue · « **Reply #17 on:** November 05, 2016, 10:12:30 AM »

I don't think it is possible to add too many bacteria to a tank. If you add more than there is enough food for, some of them will become dormant then slowly die over the next few weeks. And the one that are left won't multiply unless there is enough food for them. They will just keep ticking over, some dying off and others splitting to make up the numbers.

With fishless cycling we do grow more bacteria than the tank will need once we get fish but the 'spare' ones just die slowly as their food supply decreases.

It used to be said that if you didn't feed the bacteria daily they would die off en masse and release toxins into the tank. It is now known they don't all die at once but become dormant before dying off slowly. But I suppose it could happen that the power is out for several days and the bacteria in an external filter suffocate due to lack of oxygen. That would result in a lot of bacteria dying all at once, but I don't know if the release of toxins is fact or just an old wives' (old fishkeeper's?) tale.

Matt · « **Reply #18 on:** November 05, 2016, 10:19:47 AM »

A fountain of knowledge as usual Sue!!

fcmf · « **Reply #19 on:** November 05, 2016, 11:01:57 AM »

Quote from: Matt on November 05, 2016, 10:19:47 AM

A fountain of knowledge as usual Sue!!

Indeed. I have learned so much on here, thanks to Sue's great way of explaining things, especially around the fishless cycle.

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Very Clumsy Tank Cycling - Not Sure What Point I'm At Or What To Do Next?

Very Clumsy Tank Cycling - Not Sure What Point I'm At Or What To Do Next?

Author Topic: Very clumsy tank cycling - not sure what point i'm at or what to do next? (Read 8049 times) 22 replies

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