Intro; Tank Heater; Fishless Cycling; Addressing Soft Water

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Offline Luke

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hello everyone and thanks in advance for any help you could offer me.

i recently decided to bite the bullet and finally do something i have wanted to do in awhile now and become a fish-keeper, after a good hour in the shop trying to learn what i can could i purchased a Fluval Edge Aquarium 46L in Gloss White. first question it only shows up under cold water fish would it still be usable for tropical fish? like i was told in store.

second question if it can be used for tropical fish is about tank heaters i am a little confused with this to say the least and some info would be much appreciated (size, 1 or 2? and brands to look for.

thanks luke

Offline ColinB

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Re: tank heater
« Reply #1 on: June 16, 2016, 07:48:46 AM »
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Hello Luke, and welcome to the forum.

The 46litre Edge can be use for tropicals and the Fluval E heater (50W) gets good reviews and can be had ~½ price from SeaPets here.

As you're new to the hobby then a quick word of caution. Don't believe anything you're told in a fish shop unless you check here first - there is a lot of mis-information, old information and just plain wrong information told you by employees.

Do you know about fishless cycling here. There's half a chance the shop tried to sell you a solution saying fish can be added straight away. They can't. The tank needs to be cycled.

The Fish Articles section of ThinkFish has a load of good info in it. Can I suggest a big pot of coffee and a good session in front of the screen.

Ask us as many questions as you like - we enjoy helping - and we enjoy piccies of your tank (hint, hint!).


A Selection of Fish in my Fish Community Creator Tanks
Panda Cory (7) - Honey Gourami (3) - Ember Tetra (9) - Lemon Tetra (4) - Cherry Barb (1) - Otocinclus (2) -
Note: The user may not necessarily own these fish, these are tanks that they may be building or researching for stocking purposes


Offline Sue

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Re: tank heater
« Reply #2 on: June 16, 2016, 09:24:37 AM »
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The rule is 1 watt per litre, so you need a 50 w heater as Colin said. I have various makes of heater but the one I prefer is the Eheim Jager.




Most especially, don't believe the shop about what fish you can keep. The 46 litre Edge has a small footprint for the volume, so you need small fish that don't swim very fast.
It would also be a great help if you find your tap water's hardness. The simplest way to do that is to look on your water company's website., though some of them make it a bit hard to find. It will give the hardness in several units, if you tell us what they say make sure you give the units as well.

Fishless cycling is not only safer for fish and easier for the fishkeeper, it also gives you a while to visit every shop in the area to see what fish they stock, then make your choice from the fish that are available.

Offline fcmf

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Re: tank heater
« Reply #3 on: June 16, 2016, 07:44:25 PM »
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Welcome, Luke! :wave:

Offline Littlefish

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Re: tank heater
« Reply #4 on: June 16, 2016, 10:30:13 PM »
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Hi Luke and welcome to the forum.  :wave:

While I was cycling my first tanks, and in between trips to the local aquatics centres, I also spent a lot of time on the community creator on this site. It's very useful and quite a lot of fun. The only down side was that I saw so many fish I liked that were suitable for the water in this area that I ended up going out and buying more tanks. Oops.  :)

Offline Luke

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Re: tank heater
« Reply #5 on: June 17, 2016, 03:05:31 AM »
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first off thank you all for the warm welcome and for the great advice.

sue/ i have taken a look and found my water supply for you.

SOFT
 Calcium17 Calcium Carbonate42 Degrees Clark (UK)2.94 Degrees German (dH)2.35 Degrees French (f)4.2

if this isnt helpfull there was a much longer chart but to me none of it meant anything so i can post it if it will help more?.

for the heater i decided on 2x Eheim Jager 50w (1 as backup) and as for the information i was given in the shop the gentleman seemed to know his stuff along with explaining all about this forums, fish growth, what fish not to mix and how many would be suitable for the tank.

so new question cycling the tank i will be reading the link shortly but from what was said in the shop as i took it i should do the following -

.fully setup the tank / heater, filters, decorations, and gravel
.fill the tank and add tap safe and the bottle of ( fluval cycle biological enhancer 250ml that was provided
.wait 3 days
.then add the fish.

would this be correct ?

thanks again for all the help.




Offline ColinB

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Re: tank heater
« Reply #6 on: June 17, 2016, 08:17:31 AM »
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SOFT
 Calcium17 Calcium Carbonate42 Degrees Clark (UK)2.94 Degrees German (dH)2.35 Degrees French (f)4.2

so new question cycling the tank i will be reading the link shortly but from what was said in the shop as i took it i should do the following -

.fully setup the tank / heater, filters, decorations, and gravel
.fill the tank and add tap safe and the bottle of ( fluval cycle biological enhancer 250ml that was provided
.wait 3 days
.then add the fish.

would this be correct ?

No! Absolutely not correct at all. I'm afraid this is typical of bad shop advice as biological enhancers do not work and three days is nowhere near long enough to establish a colony of bacteria that will convert ammonia to nitrite, and then nitrite to nitrate. This will take (usually) between 4 and 6 weeks. You should follow the link to the fishless cycling method posted earlier as this will ensure happy, healthy fish...... instead of dead ones :(.

Your water is incredibly soft and will have a very limited amount of buffering capacity. This means that the pH is likely to be unstable and you could easily get a pH crash where the tank water turns acidic very quickly...... and kills your fish :(.

So.... plan #1

Read up about cycling.
Get tester kits. I would recommend the API freshwater kit and (because of your super soft water) a KH & GH testing kit.
When the tester kits are through we can get an idea of your pH and KH and advise you on the next part of your set up. This might mean adding some calcarious minerals to increase the hardness of the water and raise the buffering capacity.

I know this seems like an awful lot and the temptation is to fill the tank and put fish in after three days..... but that is why so many people have an old aquarium in their loft after giving up the hobby 'cos of constant fish deaths.

Stick with us, follow our advice (please) and you'll have a really good looking tank full of healthy fish.

A Selection of Fish in my Fish Community Creator Tanks
Panda Cory (7) - Honey Gourami (3) - Ember Tetra (9) - Lemon Tetra (4) - Cherry Barb (1) - Otocinclus (2) -
Note: The user may not necessarily own these fish, these are tanks that they may be building or researching for stocking purposes


Offline Sue

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Re: tank heater
« Reply #7 on: June 17, 2016, 09:49:06 AM »
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Luke, there are two hardness units used in fishkeeping - ppm (which is the calcium carbonate figure in your list) and German deg, usually called just degrees or even dH. When looking at fish profiles your figures are
42 ppm
2.35 degrees.
Some sites use one, some the other.

The good news is that there are more small fish that like soft water than like hard water. The bad news is that most of those are quite delicate and would not cope with a fish-in cycle, which is what you'd be doing if you follow the shop's advice. With a footprint of 43 x 26 cm your tank is just a few cm longer than my betta's tank, but a lot taller.

Colin had pointed out that with such soft water you are also likely to have low KH.
Some definitions - GH is a measure of certain types of minerals in the water (mainly calcium and magnesium) and is what is meant by hard or soft water. KH is the amount of carbonate and bicarbonate in the water. These act as a buffer; they react with acids and keep the pH stable. If there is not much KH, it gets used up quickly leaving nothing to stablise pH. The natural tendency of tanks is to become acidic and once the KH had gone the pH can plummet. This happened to me about 10 years ago when my pH dropped from its usual 7.4 to off the bottom of the scale, below 6.0.
During cycling, the solution is easy but you can't use this method when there are fish in the tank.

We have a few members on here who have very soft water - fcmf and paddyc spring to mind, and they'll be able to help you on how to cope when you have fish. But you need to cycle the tank first. I know this seems like a waste of time, having a tank with no fish when you are wanting to have a complete tank, but it will be worth it for the fish. Colin gave you a link to the method in his first post.

What you need now is a test kit, a bottle of ammonia and a tub of bicarbonate of soda from the home baking section in the supermarket. You'll need the last one to artificially raise KH during cycling.


I'm afraid to say that I've never come across anyone who says that Fluval Cycle has worked. The brand that sometimes works is Tetra Safe Start, but even that depends on how it has been stored and treated during transport (it won't work if it has been allowed to get too hot or too cold)

We've thrown a lot of information at you, so please ask if we've not explained anything properly.



And a last comment - given the shop's advice on how to set the tank up, question everything they say about suitable fish.

Offline Littlefish

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Re: tank heater
« Reply #8 on: June 17, 2016, 10:15:48 AM »
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I'm still a relative newbie as I only started last October. Luckily I'd found this forum and was lurking as a guest prior to purchasing fish. I cannot emphasise enough how much useful experience and advice is available from the people here, who have not only been keeping fish for a long time, but have also kept up with advances in fish keeping technology and methodology, and that is very important.
It is only be learning so much from this forum that I have been able to consider the advice I have been given at my local stores and narrow down the LFS I visit to the two that I trust.
Best of luck with your tank, and please feel free to post lots of pics at any time.  ;D

Offline Paddyc

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Re: tank heater
« Reply #9 on: June 17, 2016, 01:59:25 PM »
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Cheers @Sue for the mention. I'll keep a close eye on this thread.

@Luke, my water has hardness almost identical to yours. I used one treatment of bicarbonate of soda and I bought some Tropical Marine Gravel to maintain it. 3 months and many water changes later, my pH is solid at 7.5 without adding any bicarbonate of soda (because you can't add bicarbonate of soda once there are fish in there) and I have 2/3 of the gravel still in the bag!

This is the bag I bought





If you decide it is worth investing in some yourself, avoid buying 'live' marine gravel which is for saltwater Aquarium I believe.

Let me know if you have any queries, just tag me (or anyone you wish to get attention from) by placing an @ in front of the username  ;)

Offline Luke

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Re: tank heater
« Reply #10 on: June 17, 2016, 06:49:31 PM »
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wow blown away with how much knowledge you all have  :o.

@Paddyc @Sue

trust me i'm in no rush to fill the tank quickly and add fish if i am going to do this i would rather it gets done properly much to my wife and kids disappointment and maybe a touch of mine :P.

with the heaters on there way id just like to confirm with you guys what i need now then if that's ok (maybe a link or 2 if you have it) so i can start working on the water.

tropical marine gravel (med bag?)
bottle of ammonia (how much would be needed?)
bicarb soda (done)
testing kit (API freshwater kit + KH & GH testing kit) would those cover all my testing needs?

am i missing anything else?

@Sue quick question for yourself you mention that you had your ph drop way down how would you go about solving this if the fish are in the tank as i'm scared this may happen after reading about soft water?

and again thanks for all the help all of you much appreciated.

Offline fcmf

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Re: tank heater
« Reply #11 on: June 17, 2016, 07:16:04 PM »
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Hi Luke,

As Sue said, I have very soft water too, slightly softer than yours. I keep a lump of Tufa/limestone rock in the tank which helps increase both the KH and GH up a bit - from a 'natural' level of 1 and 3 respectively to 2.5 and 4.5 respectively. PH has never dropped in the 15+ years that I've used this for, both in my goldfish tank and then after I started again to set up a tropical tank. Hope that's reassuring.

Edited to add: If you buy your own KH and GH test kit, then I'd recommend doing the following (thanks to Sue who suggested this), if it's one of the kits in which you put 5ml water into a test tube and then count how many drops go in until the liquid changes colour:
* put in double the amount of water so that you have 10ml in the test tube
* count the number of drops until the liquid changes colour
* divide that number of drops by 2
This gives a much more accurate reading as I often found I was borderline between two colours (and which is why I find that it's usually 5 drops of the KH solution and 9 drops of the GH solution to get the desired colour change, then divide each of those by 2 to get the actual results.


Offline Sue

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Re: tank heater
« Reply #12 on: June 17, 2016, 07:27:14 PM »
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The reason I had a pH crash was because I was overstocked and very lazy about water changes (once every 3 to 4 weeks). Both of those allowed nitrate and other acidic things like fish hormones to build up. I have a KH of 3 German deg, and it got used up leaving nothing to buffer the pH so it dropped.
I learned my lesson and now do at least 25% water changes every week without fail.

If you use something in your tank made of calcium carbonate, that will help the same thing happening to you. You could use paddy's substrate or crushed coral; a piece of limestone or tufa rock (like fcmf) as decoration, or shells. They'll all dissolve slowly increasing both GH and KH.

If you don't want the expense of buying your own GH and KH testers, you already know the GH from your water company's website and you could get a sample of tap water tested for KH at a fish shop. If it is the same as mine or above (3 german deg/54 ppm) you'll be OK with weekly water changes. If it is below 3, I'd think about those things I suggested above.



The API master kit contains everything you need - pH and high pH (you'll just need one of those depending on how high or low your pH is) ammonia, nitrite and nitrate. The nitrate instructions say to shake bottle #2 for 30 secs before use and then shake the tube for 1 min before starting the 5 min timer. Shake the bottle for longer than 30 secs, and tap it on the worktop as well. It contains a reagent that settles out on the bottom; tapping breaks it up and the shaking is to redissolve it. Not shaking it enough is the major cause of inaccurate nitrate readings  :)

As for ammonia, you won't need much with 46 litres. I get my Kleen Off Household Ammonia from my local DIY shop, but that comes in just one size of 500 ml for £2.50. Homebase used to sell it in their stores in the home cleaning section - if there's still a Homebase near you. Failing that, Ebay and Amazon. There is one seller on Ebay selling bottles of super concentrated ammonia for fishless cycling - it's 35% ammonia while most other solutions are 9.5%.
If you get 9.5%, you'll need 1.45 ml for a 3ppm dose and 0.5 ml for the 1ppm smaller dose; with that 35% solution, you'd need 0.39 and 0.13 ml. You can get baby medicine dosing syringes from a chemist shop to measure amounts that small. Remember the baby medicine bit - I got a very funny look when I asked for just a syringe  ;D

Have you added the bicarb yet? You need 2 x 5ml spoonfuls for 46 litres. I recently did a fishless cycle in a 25 litre tank and found 1 spoonful was plenty for that size.



To start the cycle, you need:
- water
- dechlorinator, also called water conditioner. This is to remove the chlorine or chloramine the water company adds to kill bacteria, and you don't want it to kill the bacteria you'll be trying to grow
- ammonia, and a syringe to measure it with
- test kit
- thermometer to make sure the water is in the high 20s for cycling. The kind that go inside the tank with red liquid inside are more accurate than those stick on the outside ones. Very few heaters are calibrated so that the number on the dial = the water temp. Most are a few degrees out. Go by the thermometer not the heater setting.


That's enough for one post or you'll suffer word indigestion  ;D

Offline fcmf

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Re: Intro; tank heater; fishless cycling; addressing soft water
« Reply #13 on: June 21, 2016, 07:44:36 PM »
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Moderator fcmf "split" this thread at this point to create a separate thread specifically on the issue of "Addressing soft water".  C:-)  :)

Offline Paddyc

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Re: Intro; tank heater; fishless cycling; addressing soft water
« Reply #14 on: June 21, 2016, 08:58:27 PM »
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Moderator fcmf "split" this thread at this point to create a separate thread specifically on the issue of "Addressing soft water".  C:-)  :)

You beat me to it... I made a note to myself this afternoon to come on the laptop and tidy up once Abbie was in bed... Good job  8)

Offline Luke

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Re: Intro; tank heater; fishless cycling; addressing soft water
« Reply #15 on: July 01, 2016, 11:34:30 AM »
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@Sue @ColinB

hi i finally had everything arrive so have set up the tank and its been running for 3 days now (thanks sue for the heater suggestion works great) in a rush i followed the manual which means i stupidly added the fluval cycle with the tap safe  :( should i restart the water or can i still continue with the fish-less cycle using ammonia ?

i have the readings from this morning.

KH-8 drops-(100-200ppm) ?     GH 8 drops (100-200ppm) ?

PH 7,6
High range PH 7.4
Ammonia 0ppm
Nitrite no2 0.25ppm
nitrite no3 0ppm

should i go ahead and start the cycle or redo the water ?


Offline ColinB

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Re: Intro; tank heater; fishless cycling; addressing soft water
« Reply #16 on: July 01, 2016, 11:51:52 AM »
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Start the cycling process. Careful with NitrIte and NitrAte - we're easily confused! :))

Which KH & GH kit are you using? I'm using the Nutrafin one and the conversion from drops to ppm are different for them both..... which is a tad confusing. In the Nutrafin kit the KH is basically 2 drops per 1º of Carbonate Hardness while the GH is basically 1 drop per 1º of General Hardness.

A Selection of Fish in my Fish Community Creator Tanks
Panda Cory (7) - Honey Gourami (3) - Ember Tetra (9) - Lemon Tetra (4) - Cherry Barb (1) - Otocinclus (2) -
Note: The user may not necessarily own these fish, these are tanks that they may be building or researching for stocking purposes


Offline Sue

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Re: Intro; tank heater; fishless cycling; addressing soft water
« Reply #17 on: July 01, 2016, 02:29:00 PM »
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And with the API GH & KH testers for both, 1 drop = 1 german degree.

Luke, if with your tester 1 drop = 1 deg, 8 drops convert to ~140 ppm. (Whichever brand tester it is, multiply the results in deg by 17.9 to convert to ppm)
If your testers are those that 1 drop = 1 degree, you have enough hardness of both types that you don't need to worry about boosting them artificially.

One question, as it is quite common for people to misunderstand the way GH & KH testers work. Do the number of drops you give represent the number at which the colour changed? A lot of people misunderstand the use of the word 'bright' in a lot of instructions. They say that the end point is where the colour changes to bright xxx so they keep adding drops to make the colour bright. The end point is not where the colour becomes bright, it's when it changes from blue to yellow or orange to green, or whatever the tester in question changes to. With soft water the colours will never be bright as it takes hardly any drops to make the colour change. With soft water, stand the unlidded tube on something white and look down into the tube after adding each drop. The colour change is easier to see that way.




Yes, go ahead and add the first dose of ammonia.
If the Fluval Cycle works, you should see a quick drop in ammonia. But a word of caution. Some of these bottled bacteria products contain the right species of ammonia eaters but the wrong species of nitrite eaters, one that needs a very high level of nitrite to grow. With these products, ammonia is processed quickly but the nitrite stage lasts as long as without using bottled bacteria. This is why they are better used during a fishless cycle so that if the nitrite stage does last a long time, at least the fishkeeper doesn't have to do lots of water changes to keep their fish safe.

Offline Luke

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Re: Intro; tank heater; fishless cycling; addressing soft water
« Reply #18 on: July 01, 2016, 03:47:34 PM »
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the test kits im using are both API gh + kh and the freshwater master test kit
so both my gh +kh results would be 143.2 ?  (8x17,9?)


so with the above results does that mean the rocks i added to the tank have helped increase the hardness ?

@Sue also would it be ok if i posted here and edited daily my log for the cycle so myself and you could check to see if i'm messing up anywhere?

Offline Sue

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Re: Intro; tank heater; fishless cycling; addressing soft water
« Reply #19 on: July 01, 2016, 04:08:54 PM »
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Yes, the API testers are 1 drop = 1 german deg, which does indeed convert to 143.2 ppm. It is quite possible that any calcium containing rocks have helped.

Either add your results here or perhaps start a "Luke's Fishless Cycle" thread in the Fishtank Filtration and Cycling section.

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