Tropical Fish Forum
Tropical Fish Keeping Help and Advice => New Fishkeepers => Topic started by: Beckins on May 16, 2020, 12:21:39 PM
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Hi guys,
Been fishless cycling with ammonia for 14 days and I have started to see stringy/fluffy white bits on some of the items I have fiddled with more than others.
Is this normal as the tank water hasnt been changed for 2 weeks? Can I clean it off or best to leave it?
Lights have only been on for a couple hours in the eve here and there,heater set at 30 but thermometer reading just under, bubblers going, added media from friends filter 2 days ago, but it was left in a tub with tank water for over 12 hours before I could get home with it so hopefully something was still alive. Not much is happening with my cycle, I've seen 0.25 on the nitrites about 7 days ago but nothing else has changed, ammonia seems to be the same and no nitrate.
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it could well be a type of algae. Ammonia + light = algae. I would leave the lights off until the cycle is finished, and when you do the big water change at the end you can clean it all off. But you can clean it off now if you want to, if you do a water change as well, add ammonia back up to what it was before you started the water change.
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A belated welcome to the forum. :wave:
If you do clean the white bits, a new toothbrush specifically for the purposes of fishkeeping, is ideal for use on fishtank decor.
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I would clean it off before potentially letting anything take hold on your tank but agree with everything that has been said also.
Is your tank a Love Fish Panorama by any chance?
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I would clean it off before potentially letting anything take hold on your tank but agree with everything that has been said also.
Is your tank a Love Fish Panorama by any chance?
Ok I will have a little clean up :) my tank is the interpet fishpod 120.
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*cry* So I cleaned the gunk off the tubes etc and the water looked horrible so many bits everywhere....so I have changed pretty much all the water...plus refilled and took some out a couple times over (now exhausted and wish I bought an electric siphon, really struggle to get it going once water level is low) I also realise I bought a siphon for gravel not sand so cant really suck at the substrate *sigh*
Anyway I've put new water back in (made a bit of a mistake for not dechlorinating it first....was going to dechlorinate once the whole lot was in the tank but then ive realised it's probably going to have killed any of the good bacteria I might of accumulated in my filter now *cry*) dosed ammonia but there are still tonnes of bits of the white gunk floating about in my tank and settled on the substrate :( am I best off leaving it and hoping the filter will get most of it or shall I wait until it settles and attempt to suck it off the substrate and without getting my sand too :-\ what a faff....
edit...just checked my ph and that is now at 6 when it's been 7.2 the whole time before I did all this :( just checked tap water and its fine so I dont know what's caused that in my tank? I did run out of the interpet tapsafe I was using so the very last bit of water was dosed with my new bottle of tetra aquasafe, could mixing the two do that to ph??? guess I'm changing all the water AGAIN then...
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Mixing the two dechlorinators is not a problem as long as you didn't overdose by a lot.
Leave the pH for now. Have you tested both freshly run tap water and a glass of water that's been allowed to stand for 24 hours? You'll probably find they are different. You've just filled with freshly run tap water while the water you removed was 'stood' tank water which is why you need to do those tests on tap water.
When you run out of dechlorinator again, look at API Tap Water Conditioner. It looks expensive but it uses 1 drop per US gallon - or 3.8 litres. (Get the small bottle first as that has a dropper lid, then get the bigger one and use it to refill the small bottle. Don't get the very big bottles or you'll pass the use by date when it's only half gone)
Cleaning sand is a different technique. You hold the tube about a cm above the sand and make tiny swirling motions to lift the debris off the sand to where it can be sucked up. I prefer to use just the flexible tubing without the hard plastic nozzle on the end - I start the siphon by filling the tubing with water at the sink, acrrying it over to the tank with the open ends uppermost, then a thumb over each end, one into the bucket the other into the tank and let go. To do more than one bucketful, I have two buckets and lift the tubing out of the tank, open ends uppermost again, and carefully curl it into the second empty bucket while I dispose of the tank water.
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Thanks for the tips on sand I will try that.
But if my water out the tap right now is 7.2 how can it suddenly be 6 right after adding to my aquarium? :o i will try some water stood for a bit too...but it never changed in my aquarium from out the tap to 2 weeks later beforehand...
I already emptied my tank again now...added some tetra safe to my bucket of water to refill and tested and it does seem to lower the ph to 7.0 weirdly...
I will refill and see what happens now I guess....
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I have never used either of the dechlorinators you mention so I have no idea if they do anything to the pH ???
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ph is back to normal now after second water change....weird ...:/ no idea why that happened ...Wondering now if it might have just been the tube i used to test had a bit of residue from one of the others tests or something ...
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Probably most likely explanation is just that it as an off test for whatever reason as you say
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Hi @Beckins
I have just quickly scanned this thread - so please forgive me if I've missed something.
I suspect that the white stringy stuff is not algae but a form of fungus. I don't know of any white algae. It is likely that you imported it with your friend's filtration media. And, obviously, something's amiss if the ammonia level is not reducing. I'd be tempted to add Tetra SafeStart, a live bacteria product which has proven itself to be very effective.
Returning to the white stringy stuff, if it is a form of fungus, then it will need suitable treatment. I don't know what to suggest right now.
JPC
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Hi @Beckins
I have just quickly scanned this thread - so please forgive me if I've missed something.
I suspect that the white stringy stuff is not algae but a form of fungus. I don't know of any white algae. It is likely that you imported it with your friend's filtration media. And, obviously, something's amiss if the ammonia level is not reducing. I'd be tempted to add Tetra SafeStart, a live bacteria product which has proven itself to be very effective.
Returning to the white stringy stuff, if it is a form of fungus, then it will need suitable treatment. I don't know what to suggest right now.
JPC
It is interesting you mention it being fungus....I have been using the interpet safe start liquid that came with my tank....though as I work in a micro lab and from what I read about these products I have been sceptical about how much is alive in there so I plated some out onto a general growth medium at work out of interest and all that has grown was mould lol.....now I'm not an expert on these types of bacteria and maybe they need a more precise media to grow on or something. But maybe the mould could have come from that product :/
Before you mentioned the tetra stuff I had already ordered some as I read it is one of the better ones :)
Concerned now as to what I need to treat my tank with to get rid of the mould though?! I did worry it will just come back as there are still bits of it in the tank...
Can anyone help?
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It's not uncommon to get some growth on wood when it's first put into a tank, unless it's boiled/pre-soaked. With a bit of cleaning and patience it tends to disappear after a few weeks, so I'd suggest you take the same approach with what you are seeing in your tank.
Keep us updated and we can try to work out the best way forwards if the cleaning/patience approach doesn't work.
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It's not uncommon to get some growth on wood when it's first put into a tank, unless it's boiled/pre-soaked. With a bit of cleaning and patience it tends to disappear after a few weeks, so I'd suggest you take the same approach with what you are seeing in your tank.
Keep us updated and we can try to work out the best way forwards if the cleaning/patience approach doesn't work.
I dont have any wood in my tank ...but I think my friend who gave me some of his filter media did, hes had his tank for years and years though...:/
I'm guessing hopefully it might go away once I'm done with the cycling n theres less ammonia in the tank, seems like that's gonna be a long way off though! hopefully my tetra start will arrive soon as this interpet one has done bugger all!
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I dont have any wood in my tank ...but I think my friend who gave me some of his filter media did, hes had his tank for years and years though...:/
I'm guessing hopefully it might go away once I'm done with the cycling n theres less ammonia in the tank, seems like that's gonna be a long way off though! hopefully my tetra start will arrive soon as this interpet one has done bugger all!
Hi @Beckins
There is a possibility that the white stringy stuff will disappear. But, if it doesn't, there are anti-fungal/broad spectrum treatments that we could consider. As you say, let's focus on getting your biological filter going. Which filter and filtration media are you using? And what are you using as a source of ammonia? You may want to take a look at the following video in which Dr Tim Hovanec, the developer of his own brand, Dr. Tim's One and Only, gives a few basic tips on how to use this bacterial product. To the best of my knowledge, One and Only and Tetra SafeStart are identical, differing only by name. Here's the video:
That'll do for now.
JPC
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I have the interpet CF3 internal filter, it has ceramic media inside, an algaway pad and a carbon pad.
I bought the ammonia off amazon as it had reviews from people who had cycled fish tanks with it...pic attached.
For interest I have also attached a pic of what I grew at work from the interpet safe start liquid, funnily enough it's a white mould....lol...
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Hi @Beckins
When you first set up the tank, what was your starting ammonia concentration? BTW, I had a look at the household ammonia that you used. It makes no mention of any other additives so it should be OK. And, as you said, others had used it for fishless cycling.
Please remind me which manufacturer's test kits you are using for ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, KH and pH.
JPC
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Hi @Beckins
When you first set up the tank, what was your starting ammonia concentration? BTW, I had a look at the household ammonia that you used. It makes no mention of any other additives so it should be OK. And, as you said, others had used it for fishless cycling.
Please remind me which manufacturer's test kits you are using for ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, KH and pH.
JPC
I dosed to 2ppm ammonia at the start and obviously just redosed to 2ppm yesterday after the water changes. I am using the API freshwater master test kit. ...I actually just bought an API test strip kit to check my kh and gh which has just arrived today...as I'm reading alot of advice for those with soft water is to add some bicarbonate or plant fertiliser to raise the kh?....my result on that were 30ppm(mg/l) on GH and 40ppm (mg/l) for KH...is the bicarb something I should do to help? apart from the weirdness yesterday with a dodgy test my ph has been steady at 7.2 so no crashes yet...
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I'll leave it to those with soft water to comment on the use of bicarb.
I've always had hard water (around 17dH/357ppm and pH 8.2 - 8.4) and that doesn't tend to fluctuate, so I don;t have any experience with the sort of situation you're currently finding yourself in, sorry.
I think quite a lot of us use the API Master test kit too.
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The danger with low KH is that cycling creates nitrite and nitrate which are acidic and with little KH there is a danger it can be used up and the pH crash. Below about pH 6.5 the bacteria stop multiplying so the cycle never reaches the end. Keep an eye on the pH level, and if it starts to drop, that's the time to think about doing something.
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The danger with low KH is that cycling creates nitrite and nitrate which are acidic and with little KH there is a danger it can be used up and the pH crash. Below about pH 6.5 the bacteria stop multiplying so the cycle never reaches the end. Keep an eye on the pH level, and if it starts to drop, that's the time to think about doing something.
Sue.
So as long as the ph is ok there is no need worry about kh :) cool.
I was wondering if it would hurt to maybe do a water change of perhaps 25% a week while cycling just to try and keep the fungus away? might that work or not? dosing up ammonia each time of course..
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I dosed to 2ppm ammonia at the start and obviously just redosed to 2ppm yesterday after the water changes. I am using the API freshwater master test kit. ...I actually just bought an API test strip kit to check my kh and gh which has just arrived today...as I'm reading alot of advice for those with soft water is to add some bicarbonate or plant fertiliser to raise the kh?....my result on that were 30ppm(mg/l) on GH and 40ppm (mg/l) for KH...is the bicarb something I should do to help? apart from the weirdness yesterday with a dodgy test my ph has been steady at 7.2 so no crashes yet...
Hi @Beckins
Your starting point of 2 ppm ammonia was a good choice. Now, onto water hardness. A GH of 30mg/l translates to just 1.7 dGH, which is exceptionally soft water. And, this is reflected in your KH of just 2.2 dKH. Adding bicarbonate would only raise KH, not GH. You may wish to consider increasing both GH and KH. There are not many species of fish that would be comfortable in your very soft water. The other thing is that, with such low KH, you will find it difficult to keep the pH stable. This may explain why you were seeing odd pH readings before.
There is a product called JBL Aquadur, which raises both GH and KH. This is the stuff:
https://www.jbl.de/en/products/detail/5103/jbl-aquadur
I'm curious about your very soft water. Do you mind my asking in which county you live?
I'm sure you could well do without all this hassle. But, once you've got over this steep learning curve, it should get easier.
JPC
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I live in a village called Bratton Fleming in north devon :) on the edge of the moors.
I will have a look at the product you mentioned thankyou.
I plan on keeping galaxy rasbora, cardinal tetra, dwarf rainbows and a pair of agassiz cichlids, you think my water would be too soft for these to even be happy?
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I live in a village called Bratton Fleming in north devon :) on the edge of the moors.
I will have a look at the product you mentioned thankyou.
I plan on keeping galaxy rasbora, cardinal tetra, dwarf rainbows and a pair of agassiz cichlids, you think my water would be too soft for these to even be happy?
Hi @Beckins
It's going to get very confusing if you're getting slightly different messages from @Sue and myself. So, I'll take a back seat at this point and leave you in @Sue's very capable hands. But, to give you some guidance regarding your last question, I will simply refer you to:
https://seriouslyfish.com
JPC
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Bicarb can be used during cycling - but not when there are fish in the tank. Basically it just increases KH which in turn stabilises pH. But when you do the big water change at the end of the cycle, it will remove the bicarb. Soft water fish have not evolved to cope with sodium in the water which is why it should not be used when there are fish in the tank.
As for after the cycle has finished, it depends on what fish you want. There are lots of soft water fish that would be fine in your GH. You only need to increase GH if you want to keep fish which need harder water.
Back when I first joined the previous incarnation of the forum in 2006 I was very lazy doing water changes. I joined because my pH crashed and I needed to know why. It turned out that I have KH 3 to 4 and the infrequent, low volume water changes allowed the acidic things in the tank to build up. The advisor who was on here then told me to use remineralisation salts of the kind added to RO water. I didn't. I started doing larger weekly water changes and my pH has hardly changed since then.
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Can't reply just now but will try to do so later. In a nutshell, though, I checked water hardness for your village on SW water supplier website, and my water is quite a bit softer than yours, so, post-cycling, you ought to be absolutely fine with weekly water changes and without the need to resort to adding chemicals (unless keeping hard water fish). Also, test strips results v inaccurate for PH, KH and GH.
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Can't reply just now but will try to do so later. In a nutshell, though, I checked water hardness for your village on SW water supplier website, and my water is quite a bit softer than yours, so, post-cycling, you ought to be absolutely fine with weekly water changes and without the need to resort to adding chemicals (unless keeping hard water fish). Also, test strips results v inaccurate for PH, KH and GH.
Thankyou :) planning on dwarf rainbows, galaxy rasbora, cardinal tetras and a pair of agassiz cichlids so hopefully they will all be ok!
Just got to have mega patience waiting for this cycle to start now !! :vcross: :vcross:
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Checking the water supply for your village, I took a postcode of a local business there and its readings are: 23 mg/l Ca; 58 ppm; 4 degrees Clark; 6 degrees French; 3 degrees German.
The important ones for fishkeeping are ppm and German - 58 ppm and 3 respectively. These are more important than PH for fish choices that suit your water.
Looking at the most up-to-date source for different species' requirements that JPC gave you the link for, the Agassiz cichlids would be fine in your water (0-179 ppm is their required range) as would the cardinals (18-215 ppm). However, your water is too soft for galaxy rasboras / celestial pearl danios (90-268 ppm) and dwarf rainbows (5-15). Your options, therefore, would be to consider fish whose hardness requirements do fall within those of your tap water, or to consider hardening it post-cycle to ensure the needs of all of these fish. JPC and others ought to be able to help with the latter if that's the route you prefer to go down.
As for the test strips, they are very unreliable for PH, KH and GH. I have alkaline PH due to the water supplier adding orthophosphates but the test strips show it up as 6.8 rather than 7.5+. The test strips show a much harder KH and GH than my actual <2 GH or 34 ppm. However, I still use them as I find them good for the chlorine, and quick/easy nitrate and nitrite readings (as I find liquid-based test kits very difficult to decipher).
Hope that helps. Good luck with the cycle - hopefully the bicarbonate of soda ought to help considerably.
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I live in a village called Bratton Fleming in north devon :) on the edge of the moors.
Hi @Beckins
I checked out Bratton Fleming on a map of North Devon. And, there's a photo of The White Hart Inn on Wikipedia. I bet it's lovely around there. Quiet, I should imagine. I would like that.
JPC :)
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I live in a village called Bratton Fleming in north devon :) on the edge of the moors.
Hi @Beckins
I checked out Bratton Fleming on a map of North Devon. And, there's a photo of The White Hart Inn on Wikipedia. I bet it's lovely around there. Quiet, I should imagine. I would like that.
JPC :)
Its a super lovely village to live in, north devon in general is nice really, especially in times like these! Its actually been alot nicer down here without all the holiday makers too lol! I think ive found my home village in bratton fleming though, its the kind of place everyone you pass smiles and says hello, it has an awesome little village shop and even a takeaway van that stops once a week! Unfortunetly the pub you see has been closed since i have lived here (6 years) it has been bought by someone who seems to buy all the pubs around here and want to turn them into housing :/ Fortunetly the pub here is listed as a community asset and must be at least kept partly as such, much to his disapointment! Though his stubborness of coming to an agreement with the village has meant it has sat doing nothing for a number of years which is both a shame and a godsend (i think my other half would spend half his life and money there if it was still functional haha!)
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Checking the water supply for your village, I took a postcode of a local business there and its readings are: 23 mg/l Ca; 58 ppm; 4 degrees Clark; 6 degrees French; 3 degrees German.
The important ones for fishkeeping are ppm and German - 58 ppm and 3 respectively. These are more important than PH for fish choices that suit your water.
Looking at the most up-to-date source for different species' requirements that JPC gave you the link for, the Agassiz cichlids would be fine in your water (0-179 ppm is their required range) as would the cardinals (18-215 ppm). However, your water is too soft for galaxy rasboras / celestial pearl danios (90-268 ppm) and dwarf rainbows (5-15). Your options, therefore, would be to consider fish whose hardness requirements do fall within those of your tap water, or to consider hardening it post-cycle to ensure the needs of all of these fish. JPC and others ought to be able to help with the latter if that's the route you prefer to go down.
As for the test strips, they are very unreliable for PH, KH and GH. I have alkaline PH due to the water supplier adding orthophosphates but the test strips show it up as 6.8 rather than 7.5+. The test strips show a much harder KH and GH than my actual <2 GH or 34 ppm. However, I still use them as I find them good for the chlorine, and quick/easy nitrate and nitrite readings (as I find liquid-based test kits very difficult to decipher).
Hope that helps. Good luck with the cycle - hopefully the bicarbonate of soda ought to help considerably.
Thankyou for looking those up for me-Just when i thought id got a good combo for my water!! :( I thought having soft water gave you more options, ive already removed mollys/platys/guppys from my list previously as all hard water, feels like nearly everything i want gets ruled out lol!...i think i am going to have to up my hardness a little to make it work with these, unless anyone has any other colourful fish suggestions that would work with my super soft water?!
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Some suggestions, as I've "been there" myself with my similar/softer water and these fish are on my radar:
* rasboras/bororas: harlequin rasboras, espei rasboras, hengeli rasboras, neon green rasboras, or a whole host of lovely tiny bororas (eg chilli, maculatus);
* tetras: ember, ruby (not so common), cardinal (which you're planning), green neon, neon, lemon (meant to brighten up once settled in tank), rummynose, flame, serpae - would avoid this one as nippy;
* coral red pencilfish;
* honey gourami.
Hope this helps. :)
NB. X-ray tetra is lovely too - fins are colourful and the silver body actually contrasts nicely if you have other fish with colourful bodies.
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Some suggestions, as I've "been there" myself with my similar/softer water and these fish are on my radar:
* rasboras/bororas: harlequin rasboras, espei rasboras, hengeli rasboras, neon green rasboras, or a whole host of lovely tiny bororas (eg chilli, maculatus);
* tetras: ember, ruby (not so common), cardinal (which you're planning), green neon, neon, lemon (meant to brighten up once settled in tank), rummynose, flame, serpae - would avoid this one as nippy;
* coral red pencilfish;
* honey gourami.
Hope this helps. :)
NB. X-ray tetra is lovely too - fins are colourful and the silver body actually contrasts nicely if you have other fish with colourful bodies.
Thankyou I will take a proper look tommorow :)
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I live in a village called Bratton Fleming in north devon :) on the edge of the moors.
Hi @Beckins
I checked out Bratton Fleming on a map of North Devon. And, there's a photo of The White Hart Inn on Wikipedia. I bet it's lovely around there. Quiet, I should imagine. I would like that.
JPC :)
Its a super lovely village to live in, north devon in general is nice really, especially in times like these! Its actually been alot nicer down here without all the holiday makers too lol! I think ive found my home village in bratton fleming though, its the kind of place everyone you pass smiles and says hello, it has an awesome little village shop and even a takeaway van that stops once a week! Unfortunetly the pub you see has been closed since i have lived here (6 years) it has been bought by someone who seems to buy all the pubs around here and want to turn them into housing :/ Fortunetly the pub here is listed as a community asset and must be at least kept partly as such, much to his disapointment! Though his stubborness of coming to an agreement with the village has meant it has sat doing nothing for a number of years which is both a shame and a godsend (i think my other half would spend half his life and money there if it was still functional haha!)
Hi @Beckins
Thanks for the feedback. Out of interest, do you have fibre broadband in your village? I do know that some villages don't have fibre access. I only ask because, being a big internet user, I've now become dependent on it.
It's good that your local council are taking a stance on The White Hart - a round of applause. I also find it interesting that the building of new houses is happening in our villages. Here in Bracknell where I live, I can't believe the rate at which new houses are going up here, there and everywhere.
All the best.
JPC
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As for the test strips, they are very unreliable for PH, KH and GH. I have alkaline PH due to the water supplier adding orthophosphates but the test strips show it up as 6.8 rather than 7.5+. The test strips show a much harder KH and GH than my actual <2 GH or 34 ppm.
Hi @fcmf
Very interesting. Which test strips are you using, if you don't mind my asking? As aquarists, we tend to think of companies like JBL, API, NT, etc. but I have started using test kits from companies whose main markets are elsewhere, notably, tap water testing. Here is one such company from which I've bought their products and been very satisfied. I have picked out their pH and Total Alkalinity/KH test kit:
https://www.itseurope.co.uk/products/ph-alkalinity?_pos=1&_sid=c42088763&_ss=r
The test strips with Brand Names of WaterWorks and SenSafe are the ones that I've bought. They also have an aquarium section on their website.
As you're getting inaccurate readings with your current strips because of orthophosphate interference, I would advise contacting ITS Europe to ensure that their test strips will be unaffected by orthophosphate.
Hope that's of some use.
JPC
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Day 21 now.... added some tetra safe start few days ago-still no movement :( and the white horrible stuff has come back on the heater suckers and tubing :/ just trying to ignore it but.. gross....
Dreamt about fish last night :( went for a look in pets at home just to see what they had today, not much in there but the tiger barbs did catch my eye and also serpae tetra look quite nice. Reading tiger barbs are fiesty and nippy though, five banded barbs more peaceful alternative im reading.
Did another of my test strips today out of interest and this ones come up 60ppm GH today compered with 30ppm the other day. As peeps say i guess not very accurate anyhow!
Will this cycle ever start !!! :vcross: :vcross: :vcross: :'( :'( :'(
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Hi @Beckins
I am hesitant to advise for the reason that I explained before. I'd rather leave this to @Sue. But, there could be benefit in your letting us have some numbers to put alongside the following parameters as things stand as of today:
Ammonia
Nitrite
Nitrate
pH
KH
GH
Temperature
Can I also check with you the expiry date on the SafeStart and did you give the bottle a good shake before using it?
JPC
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went for a look in pets at home just to see what they had today, not much in there but the tiger barbs did catch my eye and also serpae tetra look quite nice. Reading tiger barbs are fiesty and nippy though, five banded barbs more peaceful alternative im reading.
Ah, you clearly have a penchant for nippy fish (cf my earlier comment re serpae tetra). ;D
Hi @fcmf Very interesting. Which test strips are you using, if you don't mind my asking?
As you're getting inaccurate readings with your current strips because of orthophosphate interference, I would advise contacting ITS Europe to ensure that their test strips will be unaffected by orthophosphate.
Sorry, I missed this comment the other day. I tend to use JBL or Tetra, although I've run out of both now. I tend to just ignore the PH/GH/KH readings as I have liquid-based test kits for those which are in line with my water supplier's readings. I really only use the test strips for the chlorine, nitrate and nitrite readings, as per comments made previously about struggling to read liquid-based tests for nitrate and nitrite, and finding the test strip ones are actually quite accurate. I don't honestly know for sure if it's the orthophosphate that accounts for the inaccurate readings for PH/GH/KH but thanks for the advice re the ITS Europe test strips.
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PS. What you could do, if we were keen on either the serpae tetra or the tiger barbs is take heed of the helpful advice in these good and up-to-date sources:
https://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/hyphessobrycon-eques/
https://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/puntigrus-tetrazona/
Yes, 5-banded barbs are more peaceful, as are cherry barbs which I ought to have mentioned the other day - the males in particular are brightly coloured!
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Hi @Beckins
I am hesitant to advise for the reason that I explained before. I'd rather leave this to @Sue. But, there could be benefit in your letting us have some numbers to put alongside the following parameters as things stand as of today:
Ammonia
Nitrite
Nitrate
pH
KH
GH
Temperature
Can I also check with you the expiry date on the SafeStart and did you give the bottle a good shake before using it?
JPC
ph-7.4 (up a little from 7.2)
ammonia-2ppm
nitrite-0ppm
nitrate-0ppm
gh-60ppm
kh-40ppm
temp-28/29c
I bought a second bottle of tetra that I added today as the first one I bought online and realised the volume was for half my tank size...the dates are 10/20 and 02/21
and yes gave a shake!
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I have tiger barbs in a Fluval roma 200.
As much as I enjoy having my hands nibbled every time I have to do something in the tank, I would say that my experience had led me to believe that they enjoy a larger tank with lots of plants & decor. Lots of things to explore as they are quite active and inquisitive - which can sometimes be a problem with the syphon at cleaning time.
I would recommend considering the 5-banded or cherry barbs that fcmf has suggested.
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I think I would be inclined to add some bicarbonate of soda now. The bacteria we want to grow do need inorganic carbonate (ie KH) and bicarb will provide this. When the cycle has finished, you will need to drain the tank completely and refill without any bicarb. I used a level 5 ml spoonful in a 25 litre tank; I suggest you start with 2 x 5ml spoonfuls and see. Take a bit of water out of the tank, dissolve the bicarb in it, then pour it back. This should increase KH and pH. And hopefully help speed up the cycle.
Since the cycle has not really got going yet I would also tweak your filter. I have just looked at your tank on Interpet's website and see it comes with a CF3 filter. You don't need the carbon cartridge or the algae stopper pad. The simplest thing would be to take them out and replace them with some sponge, any make cut to fit. Then all you need to do is squeeze them in old tank water when they need cleaning.
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I would second Sues recommendation for the filter having does exactly this myself in the past with the cf2 :cheers:
In fact I replaced everything of one large foam block given the outflow design
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I think I would be inclined to add some bicarbonate of soda now. The bacteria we want to grow do need inorganic carbonate (ie KH) and bicarb will provide this. When the cycle has finished, you will need to drain the tank completely and refill without any bicarb. I used a level 5 ml spoonful in a 25 litre tank; I suggest you start with 2 x 5ml spoonfuls and see. Take a bit of water out of the tank, dissolve the bicarb in it, then pour it back. This should increase KH and pH. And hopefully help speed up the cycle.
Since the cycle has not really got going yet I would also tweak your filter. I have just looked at your tank on Interpet's website and see it comes with a CF3 filter. You don't need the carbon cartridge or the algae stopper pad. The simplest thing would be to take them out and replace them with some sponge, any make cut to fit. Then all you need to do is squeeze them in old tank water when they need cleaning.
Ahh I already bought a 3 month service pack for the filter too is it really not worth using? could you link me the type of sponges? and like how big should they be ...as big as the current algaway pad and carbon thingy? and do I just slot one into the current cage that's used for the algaway pad and just shove the other one in next to it? :o
my tank holds 107l at the moment, what sort of kh should I be aiming for when adding the bicarb?
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argh dont have any bicarb...would baking powder do the same thing?! I have some of that lol although it was out of date in 2015 :rotfl:
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something like these?
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Yes, those look 'spot-on'.
(Re baking powder, no- unfortunately not the same as bicarbonate of soda.)
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Hi :wave:
The only problem with the service pack is that if you simply remove and replace you are loosing the beneficial bacteria keeping the tank running efficiently. I have a internal filter and I’ve not replaced anything in there. I wish I had used sponges because they are super easy to clean off (in old tank water). This is the information that is usually missing off of the manufacturers instructions when advising you to change the media cartridges.
Edit: removed excess text to make post easier to read.
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Hi :wave:
The only problem with the service pack is that if you simply remove and replace you are loosing the beneficial bacteria keeping the tank running efficiently. I have a internal filter and I’ve not replaced anything in there. I wish I had used sponges because they are super easy to clean off (in old tank water). This is the information that is usually missing off of the manufacturers instructions when advising you to change the media cartridges.
Edit: removed excess text to make post easier to read.
Ok then I will get them ordered...is it best I just take out the others now then and just leave it half empty until the sponges arrive? I hope the bacteria I've just added haven't taken up residence in them just yet :-o
edit...also would it be sensible to order some more ceramic rings? just that I noticed my cartridge with those in only has the rings in the bottom half of the cartridge and the top is empty?
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Not sure about the retailer as it’s just the first google result for what I was searching for but I think it’s this I used and suspect it was the size ‘L’ which fit without much modifications... check the dimensions required as this was now many years ago I did this?? Make sure whatever you buy, that it will not only fit, but fit rigidly so it does not simply float away!
https://www.pond-planet.co.uk/aquarium-c4/media-spares-c113/aquarium-filter-media-c107/juwel-bioplus-fine-filter-sponge-p3574/s5841?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_term=juwel-bioplus-fine-filter-sponge-size-one-size-one-88021&utm_campaign=product%2Blisting%2Bads&cid=GBP&gclid=CjwKCAjwk6P2BRAIEiwAfVJ0rDvDmfCebhwGiWQYfQOZpeH47LMJe87qs5-P_DT45OkHH7_PWHBs3RoCQhcQAvD_BwE (https://www.pond-planet.co.uk/aquarium-c4/media-spares-c113/aquarium-filter-media-c107/juwel-bioplus-fine-filter-sponge-p3574/s5841?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_term=juwel-bioplus-fine-filter-sponge-size-one-size-one-88021&utm_campaign=product%2Blisting%2Bads&cid=GBP&gclid=CjwKCAjwk6P2BRAIEiwAfVJ0rDvDmfCebhwGiWQYfQOZpeH47LMJe87qs5-P_DT45OkHH7_PWHBs3RoCQhcQAvD_BwE)
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ph-7.4 (up a little from 7.2)
ammonia-2ppm
nitrite-0ppm
nitrate-0ppm
gh-60ppm
kh-40ppm
temp-28/29c
Hi @Beckins/@Sue
The following is for information and consideration:
From the above figures, I have calculated that the free ammonia is 0.036/0.039 ppm for temperature 28/29C, respectively. I use the Seachem recommendation for free ammonia, which is that it should be less than 0.02 ppm. Any increase in pH will increase the free ammonia, i.e. it will be greater than 0.039 ppm. And, an increase in pH may happen if KH is increased with the addition of sodium bicarbonate. As we don't know the chemistry of the tap water conditioner being used here, it's difficult to know exactly what's going on in @Beckins' tank. But, keeping a close watch on ammonia is obviously critical to success. A Seachem Ammonia Alert fixed inside the tank would be one way of doing this.
Here's a link:
https://www.seachem.com/ammonia-alert.php
JPC
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There is a cheaper way to keep an eye on the amount of free ammonia - use a calculator
https://www.hamzasreef.com/Contents/Calculators/FreeAmmonia.php
Set salinity to zero and enter the other figures from the tester/thermometer, and look at the "NH3 concentration" box on the right.
When there are fish in the tank, that number must be below 0.02 or the fish will suffer. Measuring free ammonia is important during fish-in cycling as we can use this to decide when we need to do a water change. But once the cycle reaches the nitrite stage, water changes should be done to remove nitrite even if free ammonia is below 0.02.
For fishless cycling, the free ammonia level doesn't matter as long as total ammonia does not exceed 5 ppm. Ideally it should not exceed 3 ppm or nitrite will go higher than stall point.
Once a tank is cycled, there should be a total ammonia reading of zero, which will always have a free ammonia level well below 0.02 regardless of pH.
Filter bacteria multiply fastest at around pH 8. They still multiply at any pH above 6.5, just not quite as fast. Adding bicarb to assist a fishless cycle in soft water has two benefits - it provides inorganic carbon for the bacteria and it increases pH. (Hard water does not need bicarb as KH is high in tap water)
But the bicarb must be removed by a total water change after the cycle finishes. Since it is only low KH water which 'needs' bicarb, GH is usually low as well, and the tank should be stocked with soft water fish which don't tolerate sodium in the water.
Baking powder is bicarbonate of soda plus an acid, usually tartaric acid. It should not be added to a fish tank.
Pick up some bicarb next time you go shopping/get a delivery.
As long as KH is over 5 that's fine. I probably used too much as my KH went to 13. This is why I suggested to use less than I did.
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There is a cheaper way to keep an eye on the amount of free ammonia - use a calculator
https://www.hamzasreef.com/Contents/Calculators/FreeAmmonia.php
Set salinity to zero and enter the other figures from the tester/thermometer, and look at the "NH3 concentration" box on the right.
When there are fish in the tank, that number must be below 0.02 or the fish will suffer. Measuring free ammonia is important during fish-in cycling as we can use this to decide when we need to do a water change. But once the cycle reaches the nitrite stage, water changes should be done to remove nitrite even if free ammonia is below 0.02.
For fishless cycling, the free ammonia level doesn't matter as long as total ammonia does not exceed 5 ppm. Ideally it should not exceed 3 ppm or nitrite will go higher than stall point.
Once a tank is cycled, there should be a total ammonia reading of zero, which will always have a free ammonia level well below 0.02 regardless of pH.
Filter bacteria multiply fastest at around pH 8. They still multiply at any pH above 6.5, just not quite as fast. Adding bicarb to assist a fishless cycle in soft water has two benefits - it provides inorganic carbon for the bacteria and it increases pH. (Hard water does not need bicarb as KH is high in tap water)
But the bicarb must be removed by a total water change after the cycle finishes. Since it is only low KH water which 'needs' bicarb, GH is usually low as well, and the tank should be stocked with soft water fish which don't tolerate sodium in the water.
Baking powder is bicarbonate of soda plus an acid, usually tartaric acid. It should not be added to a fish tank.
Pick up some bicarb next time you go shopping/get a delivery.
As long as KH is over 5 that's fine. I probably used too much as my KH went to 13. This is why I suggested to use less than I did.
Ok,and should I take the algaway and carbon out my filter today or wait until the sponges arrive?
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I'd take them out now. That will leave the media you want to keep. It is better for the bacteria to start growing just on there rather than on media you will take out. Then when you get more media, the bacteria will start to grow on that as well.
However, if the filter doesn't work properly without them, put them back.
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I'd take them out now. That will leave the media you want to keep. It is better for the bacteria to start growing just on there rather than on media you will take out. Then when you get more media, the bacteria will start to grow on that as well.
However, if the filter doesn't work properly without them, put them back.
How do I know if its working properly? taken them out and it still looks like its running ok,waterflow is same as it was anyway...guessing that's ok?
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Make sure the water is flowing through the media that's left and not over the top or round the sides. If that's OK, you can leave it without the carbon and algaway pads till you can get some sponge.
The sponges should be cut so they are a tight fit and the water can't sneak round the edges. Water will always take the easiest route, we need to make sure it has to go through the media rather than round it.
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There is a cheaper way to keep an eye on the amount of free ammonia - use a calculator
https://www.hamzasreef.com/Contents/Calculators/FreeAmmonia.php
With respect, @Sue, that requires an ammonia measurement to be made using a test kit. And, that takes time and is inconvenient when done frequently. What I suggested is an instantly-visible reading every time you look at the tank. The Seachem Ammonia Alert is currently priced at £7.95 from Amazon. It can last up to one year. It will pay for itself in less than two months.
The calculator that you have referenced above is the very one that I used to calculate free ammonia figures in my previous post.
JPC
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Make sure the water is flowing through the media that's left and not over the top or round the sides. If that's OK, you can leave it without the carbon and algaway pads till you can get some sponge.
The sponges should be cut so they are a tight fit and the water can't sneak round the edges. Water will always take the easiest route, we need to make sure it has to go through the media rather than round it.
I'm pretty confused how I can know where the water is flowing? it's pretty empty in there :-/ im unsure where the media should be placed within the filter, it was at the very back behind the algaway pad and the carbon thing which I took out?
Where abouts should I be putting the sponge(s) when they come in relation to the media?
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Also it's like half empty as it is, the top stuff I added from my friends tank ...
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I think by the photos the media that in there is at the bottom of the box where the water is sucked in, then it travels up through the media the out the top.
When you add the cut sponges, they will go where the missing media will go(use the manufacturer booklet to see where the exact location will be) As long as you cut them to be a snug fit the water will travel through the media and not around it.
From the picture the water Level looks too high, I would ensure the water is below the max level marker and the outlet grill from the filter is not submerged. I may be wrong but you’ll know what I mean when you look at it.
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I think by the photos the media that in there is at the bottom of the box where the water is sucked in, then it travels up through the media the out the top.
When you add the cut sponges, they will go where the missing media will go(use the manufacturer booklet to see where the exact location will be) As long as you cut them to be a snug fit the water will travel through the media and not around it.
From the picture the water Level looks too high, I would ensure the water is below the max level marker and the outlet grill from the filter is not submerged. I may be wrong but you’ll know what I mean when you look at it.
The water level is exactly on the max line on the filter....I have had trouble with the position of the bloody thing as with the sucker mount that came with it would not sit high enough to the rim of the tank to enable me to position the filter high enough so I can fill the tank to the top rim so it looks nice without exceeding the max line on filter...so basically I had to glue a ledge onto the side of my tank to enable me to hang the filter higher and it's just high enough now so I can fill my water to the tank rim with the water at max on it :-/
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I’m quite fortunate that my filter hangs via a clip from the lid assembly. I wouldn’t worry about it too much as long as the water isn’t flooding back into the filter box at the top and is flowing out nicely and is providing some surface agitation then I wouldn’t recommend keep messing around with it if it’s sat and stable where it is. I apologise I just thought I’d mention it from the way I saw the image. As long as your happy with it and it’s working then it’s all good :))
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I think you need @Matt to help here as he has the smaller version of your filter.
@jaypeecee I see what you mean now. Though during cycling and whenever fish are added to the tank you do have to test for nitrite as there's no alert gizmo for that so it's just as easy to do ammonia at the same time. But yes, the alert can help you spot a problem as soon as it happens rather than waiting till you see the fish acting differently.
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Firstly the filter is at the right height so that should not be something to worry you.
To see how the water flows take all bits of media, carbon, pad etc out and turn the filter off. You will see a little rectangular thing the the centre bottom of the compartment. The flow comes out of here and is directed towards the back. The theory being that it should them flow both upwards and forwards towards the cascade into the tank. This is also why I replaced everything with a big block of sponge as the direction of flow is not very good.
It may see drastic but I would honstely recommend taking everything out, taking the noodles (white tube bits) out of the biological media compartment and placing these in the bottom of the filter then place sponge over the top. This arrangement served me very well for years until I transitioned it to just the sponge - you have bacteria on your noodles you want to keep there for say 4-6 months at least. I know this seems drastic but it is honestly a much better way of operating what is otherwise a powerful filter.
I have some diagrams somewhere I can dig out if that doesn’t make sense?
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To add, it’s also how a lot of other filters are set up!
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I think you need @Matt to help here as he has the smaller version of your filter.
@jaypeecee I see what you mean now. Though during cycling and whenever fish are added to the tank you do have to test for nitrite as there's no alert gizmo for that so it's just as easy to do ammonia at the same time. But yes, the alert can help you spot a problem as soon as it happens rather than waiting till you see the fish acting differently.
I'm happy to do regular testing anyhow :) I've already spent a fortune on everything I've bought for this set up so I'll just stick with what I have I think!
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Firstly the filter is at the right height so that should not be something to worry you.
To see how the water flows take all bits of media, carbon, pad etc out and turn the filter off. You will see a little rectangular thing the the centre bottom of the compartment. The flow comes out of here and is directed towards the back. The theory being that it should them flow both upwards and forwards towards the cascade into the tank. This is also why I replaced everything with a big block of sponge as the direction of flow is not very good.
It may see drastic but I would honstely recommend taking everything out, taking the noodles (white tube bits) out of the biological media compartment and placing these in the bottom of the filter then place sponge over the top. This arrangement served me very well for years until I transitioned it to just the sponge - you have bacteria on your noodles you want to keep there for say 4-6 months at least. I know this seems drastic but it is honestly a much better way of operating what is otherwise a powerful filter.
I have some diagrams somewhere I can dig out if that doesn’t make sense?
I think it makes sense, would several pieces of sponge tightly packed above the noodles work too? just that I already bought the sponges now but they are not going to be thick enough to do it in one block :/...so it would fill the whole of the inside of the filter?
edit..I'm imagining placing several pieces in horizontal would be better than having them vertically wedged in?
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If the water flows from the bottom to the top, having sponges lying across the direction of water flow is best, so yes lay them horizontally. That will stop the water sneaking along the tiny gaps between sponges as it would if they are vertical.
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Ok I will do that when they come...just added some bicarb...I think it reads either 80/120ppm KH now...I added 2 5mL spoons dissolved in tap water like you said. Hard to tell between the two of those though, is that enough?
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It will do for the present. Keep an eye on it and if it falls below 4 dH (80 ppm) add another 5 ml spoonful. And keep an eye on the pH as well.
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It will do for the present. Keep an eye on it and if it falls below 4 dH (80 ppm) add another 5 ml spoonful. And keep an eye on the pH as well.
oki doke thanks sue, ph @7.4 still at the moment
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Sound like you have the right plan for the filter :cheers:
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Still no movement on anything with cycling :-[ *sigh*
did some more googling on the white gunge stuff and it seems theres a few people who have had the white stuff grow on new suction cups and other plastic items like tubing like I have, mention it might be to do with what they coat it with when new, most say its harmless and goes away if washed with super hot water so I might give that a try sometime.
Wishing I could get fishes already! patience running thin. ..Just come across mosquito rasbora and congo tetra on trop co website, beautiful fishes! :fishy1:
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Be patient. You are doing the right thing.
Cycling can be very frustrating, but it gives your future fish an great start in your tank. :)
There are so many amazing fish that it is very easy to get carried away and end up with multiple tanks within a relatively short space of time. :-[
I was considering a large tank of congo tetra last year, but the new job & relocation put an end to various plans.
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Be patient. You are doing the right thing.
Cycling can be very frustrating, but it gives your future fish an great start in your tank. :)
There are so many amazing fish that it is very easy to get carried away and end up with multiple tanks within a relatively short space of time. :-[
I was considering a large tank of congo tetra last year, but the new job & relocation put an end to various plans.
hah I can totally understand people getting lots of tanks, if I had a bigger house I would be all over it, I've already been thinking about the potential for a smaller tank I could put on my pc desk to put a couple fishes in 😂 I think i need to get this tank sorted out first though really and that's proving challenging!! I just chucked in some dr Tim's bacteria that's arrived today, the tetra safe start and the interpet ones haven't seemed to do bugger all :( maybe the lil bacterias have all exhausted themselves out in the heat weve had lately, if this dont work I'm not wasting any more money on quick start products :vcross: :vcross: my friends media didnt even seem to help too much either. must. ..have... patience!!! :fishy1: :fishy1:
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For the benefit of anyone else looking for advice on here and potentially using products to speed up the cycle, do you think it was the Dr Tim's that finally "did the trick", the combination/cumulative effect of some/all of the products (mature media, Tetra Safe Start, Interpet plus the Dr Tim's) and other factors (re-arranging the positioning of the filter media, the bicarbonate of soda), and/or did you use another product after that or get hold of someone else's media?
What ultimately happened to the white, stringy stuff - did it disappear of its own accord or did you do something in particular to get rid of it such as pouring boiling water on it?
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For the benefit of anyone else looking for advice on here and potentially using products to speed up the cycle, do you think it was the Dr Tim's that finally "did the trick", the combination/cumulative effect of some/all of the products (mature media, Tetra Safe Start, Interpet plus the Dr Tim's) and other factors (re-arranging the positioning of the filter media, the bicarbonate of soda), and/or did you use another product after that or get hold of someone else's media?
What ultimately happened to the white, stringy stuff - did it disappear of its own accord or did you do something in particular to get rid of it such as pouring boiling water on it?
So after not having much luck with tetra safe start or Dr tims, i did try one last product which seemed to work for me, wether that was a coincidence with other things im not sure...
I purchased some seachem stability and thats when i started seeing some readings on nitrites and nitrates :) I also added probably double the ceramic media i already had to my filter, along with 3 sponges so prehaps that helped too.
I did try putting my suckers in boiling water, but it just grew back, i tried this twice.. so i dont think that is a fix!
I believe the white stuff is probably a product of having the excess ammonia in the tank during fishless cycling, and something to do with that damn plastic lol
Since being virtually cycled and having fish (i still question wether my ammonia reading is 0 or 0.25 sometimes seems to have a tiny tinge of green) , i am not seeing nearly as much of it on my plastic stuff anymore, and for some reason ive seen my cories snuffling around my airline tubing, maybe they like to munch the tiny bit that is there i dont know??
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Thanks - this update is really interesting and helpful generally, and especially for anyone else reading this thread and in the same predicament of wondering what to try next. I'd read elsewhere this week about others having success with Seachem Stability too (among other products for other folk). As you say, though, it could be the combination of that plus the doubled ceramic media plus the sponges.
As for the white stuff, you may well be correct - once I got my cories (RIP/SIP), they seemed to enjoy snuffling around the fungus-like white stuff that grew on my new wood during cycling, and it never came back after that.
If any consolation, I too have some trouble figuring out certain readings on different tests / test kits, and reckon it's often somewhere in between the two.
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The seachem stability had the longest expiry date out of the others I tried also and I purchased from my local fish shop rather than online. Unsure if these could also be a factor!
I have been doing a water change or adding prime every few days when I get paranoid about the ammonia being 0.25 instead of 0, just incase lol But the fishes seem happy enough :fishy1: :fishy1: