Stringy White Stuff Fishless Cycling

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Offline Sue

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Re: Stringy white stuff fishless cycling
« Reply #20 on: May 18, 2020, 08:21:38 PM »
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The danger with low KH is that cycling creates nitrite and nitrate which are acidic and with little KH there is a danger it can be used up and the pH crash. Below about pH 6.5 the bacteria stop multiplying so the cycle never reaches the end. Keep an eye on the pH level, and if it starts to drop, that's the time to think about doing something.

Offline Beckins

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Re: Stringy white stuff fishless cycling
« Reply #21 on: May 18, 2020, 08:29:50 PM »
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The danger with low KH is that cycling creates nitrite and nitrate which are acidic and with little KH there is a danger it can be used up and the pH crash. Below about pH 6.5 the bacteria stop multiplying so the cycle never reaches the end. Keep an eye on the pH level, and if it starts to drop, that's the time to think about doing something.

Sue.

So as long as the ph is ok there is no need worry about kh :) cool.

I was wondering if it would hurt to maybe do a water change of perhaps 25% a week while cycling just to try and keep the fungus away? might that work or not? dosing up ammonia each time of course..

Offline jaypeecee

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Re: Stringy white stuff fishless cycling
« Reply #22 on: May 18, 2020, 08:49:20 PM »
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I dosed to 2ppm ammonia at the start and obviously just redosed to 2ppm yesterday after the water changes. I am using the API freshwater master test kit. ...I actually just bought an API test strip kit to check my kh and gh which has just arrived today...as I'm reading alot of advice for those with soft water is to add some bicarbonate or plant fertiliser to raise the kh?....my result on that were 30ppm(mg/l) on GH and 40ppm (mg/l) for KH...is the bicarb something I should do to help? apart from the weirdness yesterday with a dodgy test my ph has been steady at 7.2 so no crashes yet...

Hi @Beckins

Your starting point of 2 ppm ammonia was a good choice. Now, onto water hardness. A GH of 30mg/l translates to just 1.7 dGH, which is exceptionally soft water. And, this is reflected in your KH of just 2.2 dKH. Adding bicarbonate would only raise KH, not GH. You may wish to consider increasing both GH and KH. There are not many species of fish that would be comfortable in your very soft water. The other thing is that, with such low KH, you will find it difficult to keep the pH stable. This may explain why you were seeing odd pH readings before.

There is a product called JBL Aquadur, which raises both GH and KH. This is the stuff:

https://www.jbl.de/en/products/detail/5103/jbl-aquadur

I'm curious about your very soft water. Do you mind my asking in which county you live?

I'm sure you could well do without all this hassle. But, once you've got over this steep learning curve, it should get easier.

JPC


Offline Beckins

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Re: Stringy white stuff fishless cycling
« Reply #23 on: May 18, 2020, 08:58:56 PM »
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I live in a village called Bratton Fleming in north devon :) on the edge of the moors.

I will have a look at the product you mentioned thankyou.

I plan on keeping galaxy rasbora, cardinal tetra, dwarf rainbows and a pair of agassiz cichlids, you think my water would be too soft for these to even be happy?

Offline jaypeecee

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Re: Stringy white stuff fishless cycling
« Reply #24 on: May 18, 2020, 09:11:40 PM »
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I live in a village called Bratton Fleming in north devon :) on the edge of the moors.

I will have a look at the product you mentioned thankyou.

I plan on keeping galaxy rasbora, cardinal tetra, dwarf rainbows and a pair of agassiz cichlids, you think my water would be too soft for these to even be happy?

Hi @Beckins

It's going to get very confusing if you're getting slightly different messages from @Sue and myself. So, I'll take a back seat at this point and leave you in @Sue's very capable hands. But, to give you some guidance regarding your last question, I will simply refer you to:

https://seriouslyfish.com

JPC

Offline Sue

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Re: Stringy white stuff fishless cycling
« Reply #25 on: May 18, 2020, 09:23:19 PM »
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Bicarb can be used during cycling - but not when there are fish in the tank. Basically it just increases KH which in turn stabilises pH. But when you do the big water change at the end of the cycle, it will remove the bicarb. Soft water fish have not evolved to cope with sodium in the water which is why it should not be used when there are fish in the tank.

As for after the cycle has finished, it depends on what fish you want. There are lots of soft water fish that would be fine in your GH. You only need to increase GH if you want to keep fish which need harder water.





Back when I first joined the previous incarnation of the forum in 2006 I was very lazy doing water changes. I joined because my pH crashed and I needed to know why. It turned out that I have KH 3 to 4 and the infrequent, low volume water changes allowed the acidic things in the tank to build up. The advisor who was on here then told me to use remineralisation salts of the kind added to RO water. I didn't. I started doing larger weekly water changes and my pH has hardly changed since then.

Offline fcmf

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Re: Stringy white stuff fishless cycling
« Reply #26 on: May 19, 2020, 09:00:02 AM »
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Can't reply just now but will try to do so later. In a nutshell, though, I checked water hardness for your village on SW water supplier website, and my water is quite a bit softer than yours, so, post-cycling, you ought to be absolutely fine with weekly water changes and without the need to resort to adding chemicals (unless keeping hard water fish). Also, test strips results v inaccurate for PH, KH and GH.

Offline Beckins

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Re: Stringy white stuff fishless cycling
« Reply #27 on: May 19, 2020, 10:00:53 AM »
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Can't reply just now but will try to do so later. In a nutshell, though, I checked water hardness for your village on SW water supplier website, and my water is quite a bit softer than yours, so, post-cycling, you ought to be absolutely fine with weekly water changes and without the need to resort to adding chemicals (unless keeping hard water fish). Also, test strips results v inaccurate for PH, KH and GH.

Thankyou :) planning on dwarf rainbows, galaxy rasbora, cardinal tetras and a pair of agassiz cichlids so hopefully they will all be ok!

Just got to have mega patience waiting for this cycle to start now !! :vcross: :vcross:

Offline fcmf

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Re: Stringy white stuff fishless cycling
« Reply #28 on: May 19, 2020, 01:21:52 PM »
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Checking the water supply for your village, I took a postcode of a local business there and its readings are: 23 mg/l Ca; 58 ppm; 4 degrees Clark; 6 degrees French; 3 degrees German.
The important ones for fishkeeping are ppm and German - 58 ppm and 3 respectively. These are more important than PH for fish choices that suit your water.
Looking at the most up-to-date source for different species' requirements that JPC gave you the link for, the Agassiz cichlids would be fine in your water (0-179 ppm is their required range) as would the cardinals (18-215 ppm).  However, your water is too soft for galaxy rasboras / celestial pearl danios (90-268 ppm) and dwarf rainbows (5-15).  Your options, therefore, would be to consider fish whose hardness requirements do fall within those of your tap water, or to consider hardening it post-cycle to ensure the needs of all of these fish.  JPC and others ought to be able to help with the latter if that's the route you prefer to go down.

As for the test strips, they are very unreliable for PH, KH and GH.  I have alkaline PH due to the water supplier adding orthophosphates but the test strips show it up as 6.8 rather than 7.5+.  The test strips show a much harder KH and GH than my actual <2 GH or 34 ppm. However, I still use them as I find them good for the chlorine, and quick/easy nitrate and nitrite readings (as I find liquid-based test kits very difficult to decipher).

Hope that helps.  Good luck with the cycle - hopefully the bicarbonate of soda ought to help considerably.


Offline jaypeecee

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Re: Stringy white stuff fishless cycling
« Reply #29 on: May 19, 2020, 01:38:07 PM »
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I live in a village called Bratton Fleming in north devon :) on the edge of the moors.

Hi @Beckins

I checked out Bratton Fleming on a map of North Devon. And, there's a photo of The White Hart Inn on Wikipedia. I bet it's lovely around there. Quiet, I should imagine. I would like that.

JPC  :)

Offline Beckins

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Re: Stringy white stuff fishless cycling
« Reply #30 on: May 19, 2020, 07:59:19 PM »
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I live in a village called Bratton Fleming in north devon :) on the edge of the moors.

Hi @Beckins

I checked out Bratton Fleming on a map of North Devon. And, there's a photo of The White Hart Inn on Wikipedia. I bet it's lovely around there. Quiet, I should imagine. I would like that.

JPC  :)

Its a super lovely village to live in, north devon in general is nice really, especially in times like these! Its actually been alot nicer down here without all the holiday makers too lol! I think ive found my home village in bratton fleming though, its the kind of place everyone you pass smiles and says hello, it has an awesome little village shop and even a takeaway van that stops once a week! Unfortunetly the pub you see has been closed since i have lived here (6 years) it has been bought by someone who seems to buy all the pubs around here and want to turn them into housing :/ Fortunetly the pub here is listed as a community asset and must be at least kept partly as such, much to his disapointment! Though his stubborness of coming to an agreement with the village has meant it has sat doing nothing for a number of years which is both a shame and a godsend (i think my other half would spend half his life and money there if it was still functional haha!)

Offline Beckins

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Re: Stringy white stuff fishless cycling
« Reply #31 on: May 19, 2020, 08:22:14 PM »
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Checking the water supply for your village, I took a postcode of a local business there and its readings are: 23 mg/l Ca; 58 ppm; 4 degrees Clark; 6 degrees French; 3 degrees German.
The important ones for fishkeeping are ppm and German - 58 ppm and 3 respectively. These are more important than PH for fish choices that suit your water.
Looking at the most up-to-date source for different species' requirements that JPC gave you the link for, the Agassiz cichlids would be fine in your water (0-179 ppm is their required range) as would the cardinals (18-215 ppm).  However, your water is too soft for galaxy rasboras / celestial pearl danios (90-268 ppm) and dwarf rainbows (5-15).  Your options, therefore, would be to consider fish whose hardness requirements do fall within those of your tap water, or to consider hardening it post-cycle to ensure the needs of all of these fish.  JPC and others ought to be able to help with the latter if that's the route you prefer to go down.

As for the test strips, they are very unreliable for PH, KH and GH.  I have alkaline PH due to the water supplier adding orthophosphates but the test strips show it up as 6.8 rather than 7.5+.  The test strips show a much harder KH and GH than my actual <2 GH or 34 ppm. However, I still use them as I find them good for the chlorine, and quick/easy nitrate and nitrite readings (as I find liquid-based test kits very difficult to decipher).

Hope that helps.  Good luck with the cycle - hopefully the bicarbonate of soda ought to help considerably.

Thankyou for looking those up for me-Just when i thought id got a good combo for my water!! :( I thought having soft water gave you more options, ive already removed mollys/platys/guppys from my list previously as all hard water, feels like nearly everything i want gets ruled out lol!...i think i am going to have to up my hardness a little to make it work with these, unless anyone has any other colourful fish suggestions that would work with my super soft water?!

Offline fcmf

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Re: Stringy white stuff fishless cycling
« Reply #32 on: May 19, 2020, 10:41:08 PM »
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Some suggestions, as I've "been there" myself with my similar/softer water and these fish are on my radar:
* rasboras/bororas: harlequin rasboras, espei rasboras, hengeli rasboras, neon green rasboras, or a whole host of lovely tiny bororas (eg chilli, maculatus);
* tetras: ember, ruby (not so common), cardinal (which you're planning), green neon, neon, lemon (meant to brighten up once settled in tank), rummynose, flame, serpae - would avoid this one as nippy;
* coral red pencilfish;
* honey gourami.
Hope this helps. :)
NB. X-ray tetra is lovely too - fins are colourful and the silver body actually contrasts nicely if you have other fish with colourful bodies.





Offline Beckins

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Re: Stringy white stuff fishless cycling
« Reply #33 on: May 19, 2020, 11:12:26 PM »
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Some suggestions, as I've "been there" myself with my similar/softer water and these fish are on my radar:
* rasboras/bororas: harlequin rasboras, espei rasboras, hengeli rasboras, neon green rasboras, or a whole host of lovely tiny bororas (eg chilli, maculatus);
* tetras: ember, ruby (not so common), cardinal (which you're planning), green neon, neon, lemon (meant to brighten up once settled in tank), rummynose, flame, serpae - would avoid this one as nippy;
* coral red pencilfish;
* honey gourami.
Hope this helps. :)
NB. X-ray tetra is lovely too - fins are colourful and the silver body actually contrasts nicely if you have other fish with colourful bodies.

Thankyou I will take a proper look tommorow :)

Offline jaypeecee

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Re: Stringy white stuff fishless cycling
« Reply #34 on: May 21, 2020, 12:43:05 PM »
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I live in a village called Bratton Fleming in north devon :) on the edge of the moors.

Hi @Beckins

I checked out Bratton Fleming on a map of North Devon. And, there's a photo of The White Hart Inn on Wikipedia. I bet it's lovely around there. Quiet, I should imagine. I would like that.

JPC  :)

Its a super lovely village to live in, north devon in general is nice really, especially in times like these! Its actually been alot nicer down here without all the holiday makers too lol! I think ive found my home village in bratton fleming though, its the kind of place everyone you pass smiles and says hello, it has an awesome little village shop and even a takeaway van that stops once a week! Unfortunetly the pub you see has been closed since i have lived here (6 years) it has been bought by someone who seems to buy all the pubs around here and want to turn them into housing :/ Fortunetly the pub here is listed as a community asset and must be at least kept partly as such, much to his disapointment! Though his stubborness of coming to an agreement with the village has meant it has sat doing nothing for a number of years which is both a shame and a godsend (i think my other half would spend half his life and money there if it was still functional haha!)

Hi @Beckins

Thanks for the feedback. Out of interest, do you have fibre broadband in your village? I do know that some villages don't have fibre access. I only ask because, being a big internet user, I've now become dependent on it.

It's good that your local council are taking a stance on The White Hart - a round of applause. I also find it interesting that the building of new houses is happening in our villages. Here in Bracknell where I live, I can't believe the rate at which new houses are going up here, there and everywhere.

All the best.

JPC

Offline jaypeecee

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Re: Stringy white stuff fishless cycling
« Reply #35 on: May 21, 2020, 01:36:54 PM »
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As for the test strips, they are very unreliable for PH, KH and GH.  I have alkaline PH due to the water supplier adding orthophosphates but the test strips show it up as 6.8 rather than 7.5+.  The test strips show a much harder KH and GH than my actual <2 GH or 34 ppm.

Hi @fcmf

Very interesting. Which test strips are you using, if you don't mind my asking? As aquarists, we tend to think of companies like JBL, API, NT, etc. but I have started using test kits from companies whose main markets are elsewhere, notably, tap water testing. Here is one such company from which I've bought their products and been very satisfied. I have picked out their pH and Total Alkalinity/KH test kit:

https://www.itseurope.co.uk/products/ph-alkalinity?_pos=1&_sid=c42088763&_ss=r

The test strips with Brand Names of WaterWorks and SenSafe are the ones that I've bought. They also have an aquarium section on their website.

As you're getting inaccurate readings with your current strips because of orthophosphate interference, I would advise contacting ITS Europe to ensure that their test strips will be unaffected by orthophosphate.

Hope that's of some use.

JPC

Offline Beckins

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Re: Stringy white stuff fishless cycling
« Reply #36 on: May 23, 2020, 04:31:07 PM »
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Day 21 now.... added some tetra safe start few days ago-still no movement :( and the white horrible stuff has come back on the heater suckers and tubing :/ just trying to ignore it but.. gross....

Dreamt about fish last night :( went for a look in pets at home just to see what they had today, not much in there but the tiger barbs did catch my eye and also serpae tetra look quite nice. Reading tiger barbs are fiesty and nippy though, five banded barbs more peaceful alternative im reading.

Did another of my test strips today out of interest and this ones come up 60ppm GH today compered with 30ppm the other day. As peeps say i guess not very accurate anyhow!

Will this cycle ever start !!! :vcross: :vcross: :vcross:  :'( :'( :'(


Offline jaypeecee

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Re: Stringy white stuff fishless cycling
« Reply #37 on: May 23, 2020, 07:14:56 PM »
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Hi @Beckins

I am hesitant to advise for the reason that I explained before. I'd rather leave this to @Sue. But, there could be benefit in your letting us have some numbers to put alongside the following parameters as things stand as of today:

Ammonia
Nitrite
Nitrate
pH
KH
GH
Temperature

Can I also check with you the expiry date on the SafeStart and did you give the bottle a good shake before using it?

JPC

Offline fcmf

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Re: Stringy white stuff fishless cycling
« Reply #38 on: May 23, 2020, 07:38:04 PM »
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went for a look in pets at home just to see what they had today, not much in there but the tiger barbs did catch my eye and also serpae tetra look quite nice. Reading tiger barbs are fiesty and nippy though, five banded barbs more peaceful alternative im reading.
Ah, you clearly have a penchant for nippy fish (cf my earlier comment re serpae tetra).  ;D

Hi @fcmf Very interesting. Which test strips are you using, if you don't mind my asking?
As you're getting inaccurate readings with your current strips because of orthophosphate interference, I would advise contacting ITS Europe to ensure that their test strips will be unaffected by orthophosphate.
Sorry, I missed this comment the other day.  I tend to use JBL or Tetra, although I've run out of both now.  I tend to just ignore the PH/GH/KH readings as I have liquid-based test kits for those which are in line with my water supplier's readings.  I really only use the test strips for the chlorine, nitrate and nitrite readings, as per comments made previously about struggling to read liquid-based tests for nitrate and nitrite, and finding the test strip ones are actually quite accurate.  I don't honestly know for sure if it's the orthophosphate that accounts for the inaccurate readings for PH/GH/KH but thanks for the advice re the ITS Europe test strips.

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Re: Stringy white stuff fishless cycling
« Reply #39 on: May 23, 2020, 07:43:21 PM »
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PS. What you could do, if we were keen on either the serpae tetra or the tiger barbs is take heed of the helpful advice in these good and up-to-date sources:
https://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/hyphessobrycon-eques/
https://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/puntigrus-tetrazona/

Yes, 5-banded barbs are more peaceful, as are cherry barbs which I ought to have mentioned the other day - the males in particular are brightly coloured!

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