Tropical Fish Forum
Tropical Fish Keeping Help and Advice => New Fishkeepers => Topic started by: apache6467 on March 07, 2016, 05:13:15 PM
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Hello!
My male catfish sadly passed away :'(
So I would like some advice on starting a small tank in my bedroom. I have a spot on some draws which is 30cm width and 45 length (not all the space available)
If I could have some advice what would go well there it will be greatly apriciated
Apache6467
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Well, if an aquarium can be found that has a footprint of 30cm x 45cm exactly, it would have an internal capacity of about 40Litres, if it were 30cm tall.
The water alone would weigh about 40Kg, and then there is the substrate and any hardscape on top, so you're looking at about 50Kg.
Is it a peice of solid furniture, or is it flat-pack IKEA type furniture?
If it's the latter I wouldn't trust it to hold that weight safely.
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Its a hardwood structure so it will be OK.
Can you put a hyperlink to the tank please
Thanks simon
Apache6467
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I didn't say I'd found the tank, I was talking hypothetically based on your measurements. ;)
Just wanted to check the furniture would hold the weight.
There are a few small tanks here (http://www.zooplus.co.uk/shop/fish/aquarium/fish_tanks) to give you food for thought.
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:wave: i found this http://www.petplanet.co.uk/product.asp?dept_id=167&pf_id=57624&utm_source=ShoppingFeed&utm_medium=cpc&gclid=Cj0KEQiA6vS2BRDH8dq06YDHz_IBEiQAzNdBmUCar4toVAL6Ymtl7tvKm511BTGkWqHzMefLI5KpjiIaApK88P8HAQ
DOn't know hw to use the hyperlinks :o
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Sorry to hear about your male catfish :(
If you can spare 47cm instead of 45cm you could get a 45L
https://fishkeeper.co.uk/product/aqua-range-aqua-45-black-aquarium-set
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thanks littlefish
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If you can spare 47cm instead of 45cm you could get a 45L
If you click on the spec, it turns out to hold 40 litres. Some have misleading names which don't equate to the number of litres they hold, so always good to check the actual dimensions and see if there is mention of number of litres it holds.
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:cheers: thanks for the support. The 40L is a bit beyond my budget :-\ any advice on where I can get salt and pepper catfish
Thanks
Apache6467
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Last year I bought a "45L" tank for my shrimps. It was a good deal, a well known manufacturer and LFS. When I got it home and measured it internally, it worked out at about 33L! Always check the internal dimensions before you buy. It turned out that the "45L" was the "shipping volume" - i.e. how many of these can we get in this truck / container? Needless to say, discussions ensued!
Skittler
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My local Maidenhead Aquatics has had habrosus cories recently. They are not very common, unlike pygmy cories. The two are more or less the same size and have the same requirements, they just look a bit different.
Don't forget that small cories do much better on sand. Even small gravel is big to them.
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Sorry about that, I hadn't read the technical specs in enough detail. :-[
That's why we appreciate the more experienced people on this forum (thanks fcmf & Skittler)
:)
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Thanks sue.
My nearest one is about 10-15 miles away. :o
I will have sand... Probably will have the cash on my 15th birthday...
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Hi
Have you tried eBay or gumtree they may have some suitable sized 2nd hand tanks in your area, saving more of your birthday money to buy fish with. :fishy1:
Cories are my favourite fish, I think they are so chilled and not concerned about anything. They are either really busy bustling around the tank or motionless on the bottom resting.
Anne
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ok so i have an idea 8)
i was thinking about using the tank as a corydoras panda breeding tank. is this ok?
i will have sand substrate and NO OTHER TANKMATES.
i will probably use a fishless cycle before the introduction and i'm wondering if i need a bubble/co2 tube
Apache6467
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Sounds like a good idea, however you'll need to consider what to do when they have laid eggs.
Taken from seriouslyfish:
Set up the breeding tank (18″ x 12″ x 12″ or similar is a good size), with either a bare bottom, sand or fine gravel substrate. Use air-powered sponge or box-type filtration as fry won’t be sucked into these and provide some clumps of vegetation such as java moss. A temperature of around 75°F and a pH of 6.5 should be fine. Filtering the water through peat is useful, as is the use of RO water.
It’s always better to have a higher ratio of males to females when breeding corys and 2 males per female is recommended. Condition the group on a varied diet of live, frozen and dried foods. When the females are visibly full of eggs perform a large (50-70%) water change with cooler water, and increase oxygenation and flow in the tank. Repeat this daily until the fish spawn.
It’s worth observing a couple of notes on general cory breeding at this point. Many species are seasonal spawners, breeding during the wet season in their native countries. This occurs at the same time of year as the UK winter, so if summer breeding attempts are failing, it may be worth waiting until winter before trying again. Additionally, it can take several years for certain species to become sexually mature, so be patient. Finally, different tactics may sometimes be required, such as timing of water changes, oxygenation levels etc. If you aren’t having any luck, don’t be afraid of trying different approaches.
If the fish decide to spawn, they will usually lay their eggs on the tank glass, often in an area where water flow is quite high. Spawning behaviour is characterised by an initial increase in activity and excitement, before males begin to actively pursue females. A receptive female will allow a male to caress her with his barbels, before the pair take up the classic “t-position”, in which the male grasps the females barbels between his pectoral fin and body. He then releases some sperm and it’s thought that this passes through the mouth and gills of the female, being directed towards her pelvic fins. These she uses to form a ‘basket’, into which she deposits a single egg (although up to 4 may be released). Once this is fertilised, she swims away to find a suitable place to deposit the egg, before the cycle is repeated. If you spawn the fish in a group situation, you will often see multiple males chasing a female as she goes to deposit an egg, in an effort to be the next chosen to fertilise them.
The adults will eat the eggs given the opportunity, so once spawning is complete you have a couple of choices. Either remove the adults and raise the brood in the same tank, or move the eggs and raise the fry elsewhere. If you decide to move the eggs, you’ll find they’re quite robust, and can usually be gently rolled up the glass with a finger. The new container should contain the same water as the spawning tank and be similarly well-oxygenated. Wherever you decide to hatch the eggs, it’s always best to add a few drops of methylene blue to the water to prevent fungussing. Even then, some eggs will probably fungus, and these should be removed as soon as they’re spotted in order to prevent the fungus spreading. Other options include adding an alder cone to the hatching container (these release various beneficial chemicals). Some hobbyists even use certain species of freshwater shrimp to pick any fungal spores from healthy eggs. Cherry shrimp, Neocardina heteropoda work well. These will eat diseased eggs, but leave healthy ones unharmed.
The eggs hatch in 3-5 days and once the fry have used up their yolk sacs, they’ll accept microworm and brine shrimp nauplii as first foods. They seem to be less susceptible to disease when kept over a thin layer of sand, rather than in a bare-bottomed setup.
http://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/corydoras-panda/
There's no need to introduce CO² as this is only useful for maintaining a high maintenance planted tank.
You could use an airpump to increase oxygenation, or just ensure the filter outflow creates a good amount of surface movement.
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And bear in mind that cories don't like newly cycled tanks. They do much better after the tank has been running several months after cycling. It takes these months for biofilm to grow all over everything in the tank, and cories seem to need this micro-organisms that live in the biofilm
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well, i may use some sponges from my current filter in my main tank when i get the filter so it will already have a large amount of bactiria. my cories bread previously and my old tropical fish encyclopedia says that breeding is similar to Corydoras Aneus so i'll give it a reason for a new tank; Thanks Everybody ;D
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Also!!!
are otocinclus known egg eaters?
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I think even Otos might not be able to resist the extra protein they'll get from fish eggs.
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ok so ill only put otos or green eaters when there's no eggs
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so will snails eat eggs?
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I'm pretty sure my Assassin Snails were eating my Apisto's eggs.
My Malaysian Trumpet Snails don't eat eggs.
I'm not sure about other types.
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ok so i will cycle in my algae eaters an i think this is my one. http://www.petplanet.co.uk/product.asp?dept_id=167&pf_id=57624&utm_source=ShoppingFeed&utm_medium=cpc&gclid=CjwKEAiAjfq2BRDpmdHmssaW5xsSJABToP4luTHUS8WVNvM0Zm3ZxzZjVhdCHLUtIlPQXiEJq5YtfRoCs8vw_wcB (http://www.petplanet.co.uk/product.asp?dept_id=167&pf_id=57624&utm_source=ShoppingFeed&utm_medium=cpc&gclid=CjwKEAiAjfq2BRDpmdHmssaW5xsSJABToP4luTHUS8WVNvM0Zm3ZxzZjVhdCHLUtIlPQXiEJq5YtfRoCs8vw_wcB)
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ok so i will cycle in my algae eaters an i think this is my one. http://www.petplanet.co.uk/product.asp?dept_id=167&pf_id=57624&utm_source=ShoppingFeed&utm_medium=cpc&gclid=CjwKEAiAjfq2BRDpmdHmssaW5xsSJABToP4luTHUS8WVNvM0Zm3ZxzZjVhdCHLUtIlPQXiEJq5YtfRoCs8vw_wcB (http://www.petplanet.co.uk/product.asp?dept_id=167&pf_id=57624&utm_source=ShoppingFeed&utm_medium=cpc&gclid=CjwKEAiAjfq2BRDpmdHmssaW5xsSJABToP4luTHUS8WVNvM0Zm3ZxzZjVhdCHLUtIlPQXiEJq5YtfRoCs8vw_wcB)
I think that might be a little too small for Panda Corys.
(18″ x 12″ x 12″ or similar is a good size)
Your tank is about 15" x 9" x 9" and 25Litres, so it's about 10Litres shy of the recommended.
Maybe Sue will feel that you'll be able to get away with the smaller tank.
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My feeling is that it would be OK to spawn panda cories, then remove the adults to a bigger tank and use the small one to hatch the eggs and grow on the fry.
Nerite snails won't eat eggs and they will eat algae.
The tank is far too small for any algae eating fish.
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Hi all!
Instead of catfish, I think breeding guppies would be better for the space I have. I will have a sandy base and 1 male with 2 females. When birth is close I will put the females in my net breeder. Does anyone have any tips. What is the gestation period of a guppy?
Thanks for your friendly advice :cheers:
Apache6467
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The gestation period is about 4 weeks.
Breeder nets can stress the female, making her either hang on the fry or abort the eggs. Lots of people do use them successfully but remove the female once she has given birth.
Do you mean the nets that are held by a frame that clips onto the side of the tank? If that's what you mean, you may well find the female eats all the fry as they'll be in the same container with her.
If you want to breed guppies in the small tanks in your link you might have more success if you partition off a small area at the end of the tank using craft mesh. The fry will hopefully find their way through the mesh into the safe area before they get eaten.
What do you intend to do with the fry? Very few shops will take them because they are so cheap to get from the wholesaler. If you want to try breeding for a particular colour or pattern, don't forget that the guppy females in the shop will have been kept with males and will be carrying sperm from most of the males in the same tank. It will take up to 6 months of fry every 4 weeks for the females to use up all the stored sperm.
You could try endlers instead. The endlers in shops are guppy-endler hybrids but they seem to take after the endler side of their heritage and don't eat their fry as readily as guppies. They will also do better in a small tank. The gestation period is the same as for guppies, as is the time females store sperm.
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The net has a section which the fry drop through... Thinking about other live bearers... Maybe swordtails or platys... What's your opinion on the best live bearer which is hardy...
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My variatus platies, which I've had since November, were active without me even realising. I only had 1 male and 2 females. It was only when I moved them into the larger communal tank and was getting ready to clean out their smaller tank that I found the babies. Currently mother and babies are in one tank, father is in another tank, 3rd female is in the communal tank. I'm waiting to make sure the babies are big enough, and I'm sure the female isn't going to give birth again, before putting them in the communal tank. Daddy fish will always be kept in a separate tank from now on because there's only so many v. platies I need in my tanks.
These are quite hardy & colourful fish, are fine in an unheated tank, and apparently have no problems reproducing on a very regular basis.
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OK thanks little fish ¡!!!!
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If you are thinking about that 25 litre tank, nothing bigger than guppies. Platies, swordtails and mollies are just too big for a tank that size. Endlers are hardier than guppies.
Is your tapwater hard or soft? That info should be somewhere on your water company's website. If it is hard, there are other, rarer, livebearers that would fit in a small tank. Google Heterandria formosa and Neoheterandria elegans. But they really do need hard water to do well.
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The problem, as Sue already pointed out, is what to do with the babies from your breeding project.
Might be worth checking with your LFS if they will take the Endlers or Guppies. Otherwise, what's it for?
If your LFS won't take the babies, a tank that size would make a nice tank to simply keep a few male Endlers.
Some nice stone or wood, nice lighting, a few plants and few nicely coloured Endlers would be ideal in tank that size without the concern about baby fish and what to do with them.
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I plan to keep some babies in my big tank and sell the rest... My LFS took our baby kribs last year. Never heard of or seen endelers before... See if I can sort some
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Endlers are really nice looking fish.
:fishy1:
Check them out on the fish profiles.
You'll find them in all the aquatics centres.
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I plan to keep some babies in my big tank and sell the rest... My LFS took our baby kribs last year. Never heard of or seen endelers before... See if I can sort some
From a shop's view, some fish are more desirable than others. Before breeding anything, check with a few shops to see if they will take fry of the species you are thinking of. I doubt any shops would take guppy fry, for example.
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:afro :afro :afro
RESULT!!!
Got 5 oticinclus for my main tank and 1 male and 2 female endler guppies! They are in a plastic floating fry thing since my angelfish may eat them... Dad will buy the tank if I do gardening... Better hurry.. Will have to do a fish in cycle so advice will be greatly appreciated
Apache6467
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The best piece of advice for a fish-in cycle is to take some media from the tank already in the house. For 3 endlers in a 25 litre tank you won't need much, but it is safe to take up to a third of the mature media, monitoring the ammonia and nitrite readings in that tank for a few days to be on the safe side.
Once you have the new tank, fill it with dechlorinated water, and if you don't use warm water wait until it has reached the right temp with the filter turned on to move the water round but no media inside the filter. Then when you are ready, take some mature media from the main tank's filter - don't clean it - and put it into the new tank's filter. As soon as you've done that, put the endlers in the tank as well.
Feed the fish less food than normal for several days as less food = less ammonia, and test the new tank every day for ammonia and nitrite. If you see a reading other than zero for either of them, do a water change. You need to stop both of them reaching 0.25 by doing water changes. When you've tested every day and had zero readings for 7 days in a row, then the tank will be cycled.
The gap left in the main tank's filter will need filling. Either put the media that comes with the new tank into the main tank's filter or get some new media for the main tank.
If the endlers breed while you have readings above zero, they will add the the amount of ammonia being made. Let this batch get eaten if that's what the adults decide to do. You will have more soon with 2 females. Up to 20 fry twice a month. And don't forget that the male endler can impregnate the female fry when they are as young as 3 weeks. They can't have fry that young but they can store sperm from that young. And as soon as the male fry reach puberty, they'll also be able to mate with the adults females and female fry. Then you'll have up to 20 fry from every female every month. Unless you do something, there won't be room for the fish to move. And in my experience, even if a shop will take fry, they won't take them until they reach the size of the ones you've just bought.
I used to have pure endlers which I got from specialist dealers. Because they were pure not hybrids like yours will be, I did sell them quite easily on aquarist classifieds, then once everyone in the area had them I sold them to shops. I didn't get cash for them, only store credit. And they wouldn't take them till they were fully grown.
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Yesterday evening I went to pick up a 50L second hand tank (L59cm W29cm D33cm) which has a elite stingray filter and a ney and siphon. Today I will try to get silver sand and a heater. I will have to do a fish in cycle since my das already bought the endlers :yikes: thinking about breeding panda Cory's using my other post about my bronze Cory's and maybe a pair of Otto's. Wish me luck and help is always nice ;D
Apache6467
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Best of luck Apache :)
You know that you are in good hands with the help and advice provided by the experienced people on this forum.
As Sue said, use some of the media from the existing tank, that will be a great help.
I look forward to hearing about your progress. 8)
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Tank first.
Stingray filters don't have very good media. They have a sponge, which is fine, but they also have carbon/zeolite cartridges, which are not. Do you have a manual for the filter? If you haven't, click here (https://uk.hagen.com/File/c02555ca-c56a-457c-80fc-f612958bbb2f)
Fish-in cycles are hard work. Are you prepared to do a water change every day? The easy way round it depends on your father. This will also fix the filter's shortcomings as well.
Does the main tank have sponges in the filter? If you would be allowed to, the simplest thing to do is cut some sponge from the main tank to the size and shape of the stingray's cartridges - and buy a new sponge to go in the main tank. Or take some ceramic media from the main tank if it has that, break open the cartridges, throw away what's inside and put the ceramic media inside instead.
Set the new tank up, get the water to the right temp, then sort out the media. Keep the mature media damp, don't let it dry out. Once it is in the new tank, move the endlers over. Test for ammonia and nitrite every day, and do a water change if you see a reading above zero for either of them. If you do get readings it shouldn't last long with mature media.
If you can't use any of the main tank's filter I would still replace the cartridges with new sponge. If the cartridges have been used by the last owner, they would need replacing anyway. But the best would be if your Dad would keep the endlers in his tank while you do a fishless cycle.
If that's not allowed and you have to do a fish-in cycle, you will need to test the tank every day for ammonia and nitrite. You will need to do a water change whenever the readings get near 0.25. If they go over that reading, it will harm the fish. They may not get sick right away but they will be weakened.
And it might mean doing a water change every day for a few weeks.
Fish.
The tank is fine for endlers and panda cories.
The main problem with mixing them is that pandas need cooler temperature than endlers. Panda's need 22 - 25oC and endlers need 24 to 30. Keeping one at the top end and the other at the bottom end of their temp ranges is not good for the fish, they should really be in the middle of the range.
Pandas also prefer softer water than endlers.
If you still want to try them both, wait till the tank has been running a few months after it finishes cycling before getting the cories. Pandas are one of the more delicate species and it is better to wait until the biofilm, with all its micro-organisms, has established all over the tank tank and decor.
Panda cories need good water conditions. If you are not prepared to keep the tank clean, don't get them.
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Thanks sue, i have put gravel underneath the sand and i am off to get some plants and a heater. will try fish in
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Oh. The gravel will work its way up through the sand and you'll end up with the sand on the bottom and the gravel on top.......
If you are going ahead with fish-in cycling, just the endlers as fish-in would probably kill pandas. Once the tank is cycled for the endlers, after a few months add the cories 2 at a time.
And don't forget to test the water every day.
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And I've just noticed your signature. Otos are not suitable for a tank that size. They need to be in a group of at least 6 and a small tank just can't grow enough algae to feed that many.
If you want algae eaters once the tank has grown algae your best bet is nerite snails. The female endlers would probably eat baby shrimps, so best not to get them.
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thanks sue... not got the pandas or otto's yet... will see if i can remove the gravel
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Wait a few months before getting 6 pandas, 2 at a time, and don't get any otos at all.
The reason I say get 2 pandas at a time is that the tank will only be cycled for the amount of ammonia made by 3 endlers. The guideline is to add no more than a third of the fish already in the tank so that the bacteria will be able to multiply quickly enough to cope with a third more ammonia. If too many fish are added in one go - and that's too many compared with what's already there - ammonia will spike, then nitrite, and do the cories no good at all.
The way to add fish after a fish-in cycle, is one third of the fish already in the tank, test for ammonia and nitrite every day, do water changes whenever you see a reading above zero, then get more fish when you've had 7 days in a row with zero ammonia and zero nitrite.
This is why it takes much longer to fully stock a tank with fish-in cycling compared to fishless.
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I have found an ordinary kitchen sieve the easiest was to separate sand and gravel.
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30 mins later....
the sand had mixed with the water and i removed ALL the sand and gravel so I put my bogwood and cory breeding glass (for use in late April/May) and added new water and sand. I currently have a EHEIM thermo control heater set to 24.5 degrees c. filter works nicely. I will keep updating as and when necessary.
Apache6467
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The fish-in cycle will begin soon... I will be using my two 'spare' kribensis females instead of the endlers to set up the cycle.
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If you don't have to move the endlers in right away, why not do a fishless cycle?
It doesn't matter which fish go through a fish-in cycle, it is not good for any fish.
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Really a fish-in cycle shouldn't be the method of choice but only used where its unavoidable.
It's stressful and harmful for the fish because of exposure to ammonia and nitrite and due to the constant water changes.
It's far more sensible and ethical to fishless cycle.
It's not uncommon for fish to die as a result of fish-in cycling, this is something I, regretfully, have 1st hand experience of.
I ended up doing a fish-in cycle before I'd learned about the fishless method, and after being given poor advice at the LFS.
I would never do it again and would strongly recommend anyone to avoid it at all costs.
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Is there any chance you can leave your fish in the main tank?
It really would be much better to do a fishless cycle. It would be very stressful for the fish to be moved into an un-cycled tank, then if they started looking ill, or if anything went wrong with your cycle, you'd end up moving them again, which would stress them further.
It really is far safer to do a fishless cycle.
Please consider this very seriously.
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I shall try a fishless, the enderlers are in a plastic fry tank... Don't know if I will have the time and I don't have the money (£30!) For a testing kit
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You can't do a fish-in cycle without a testing kit - how will you know when you need to change the water? And you can't do a fishless cycle without one either - how will you know when to add the next dose of ammonia?
What do you mean the endlers are in a plastic fry tank? A small tank or one of those tiny things that float in the main tank? If it's the first, they will be getting poisoned by their own waste; if it's the second those are far too small for even one fish for more than a day. If you can't find a better home for them, see if the shop will take them back until their tank is ready. Or release them into the big tank for now.
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As you only need to test for Ammonia and Nitrite when cycling you don't need to spend £30 on a whole kit of 6 or 7 different tests. You could spend just over half that on only the tests you require.
Ammonia Test kit - £7.97 + free delivery (http://www.amazon.co.uk/API-Ammonia-Test-Freshwater-120g)
Nitrite Test Kit - £8.34 + free delivery (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Monster-Pet-Supplies-Waterlife-Nitrite)
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Thanks Simon, where can I get cheap ammonia from for fishless cycle?
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It is difficult to get ammonia from real shops these days as it can be used in certain illegal activities. I know you aren't old enough to have an Amazon or Ebay account, but if your parents do, could they order some from one of those for you?
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Well this aquarium is for me to pay myself by doing jobs... Would some media from the fluval from the main tank substitute for a fishless cycle?
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Homebase sell their own household ammonia. 9.5% ammonia with no detergent or surfactant. £2.50 for a 500ml bottle. If you need to ask parents or friends to drive you to a Homebase it's better to get the store phone number. They will check the shelves and reserve you a bottle if they have it. This is what I did for my ammonia
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Thanks will see what I can do.. But I don't have long to cycle... Any ideas?
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Media from the main tank will not be a substitute for a fishless cycle, but it will certainly help. It will be more like Paddy's progress rather than starting completely from scratch.
I know it is quite frustrating, but releasing your fish into the main tank, or asking the shop to take them back for a while, really is the safest option.
Paddy has recommended cheap ammonium and Simon has found cheaper tests. If you want to do the full range of tests the API freshwater master test kit is good, which can also be ordered on Amazon for around £23.
Why don't you have long to cycle the tank?
What are the biggest problems you feel that you are facing at the moment?
Let us know and we will help wherever we can. :)
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*shop, not ship. :-[ Apologies for the spelling.
Fixed it for you :)
You can modify your own posts using the "Modify" button at the top right of each post ;)
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Well, the shop won't take them back since endlera are rare and if I release them into the tank the angles will eat them... I may also use this tank as a source of income so I don't have long for the welbieng of the endlers
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Turns out I need to clean the sand :-(
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No problem. If it is aquarium sand it will just need rinsing in plenty of water. :)
As for your tank, it is worth taking a bit of time now to ensure the set up & water quality is good so that you don't lose any of your Endlers.
I'm guessing that you got the pure breed Endlers. As most are crossed with normal guppies the pure breed ones should be easier to sell on.
I would still say that it is worth starting a fishless cycle, but then I've only been keeping fish since last October. It's worth taking the advice of the more experienced fish keepers on this forum.
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If the endlers came from a shop they will be endler guppy hybrids no matter what they look like. You have to go to specialist breeders to get pure endlers. I had some pure ones about 10 years ago, and I got them from specialists.
And endlers in shops are not rare. Almost every shop sells them.
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:( I would love to do a fishless cycle.. I just don't have the money for ammonia and tests.
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Just had a chat with dad and he will get bactiria from his fluval into my tank and add in 2 female kribensis (we have 4 females) to produce ammonia for the cycle. The endlers will remain in the tank until it is ready. 1 month~ after putting in the endlers and removing the kribs, I may put in 2 female and 4 male panda corys and a pair of ottocinclus. If there is not enough algae then I will supplement with cucumber and put a tub of water with stones in to grow algae on the rocks, on my windowsill. Any other suggestions as the community creator says these number of tank mates are fine.
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It is very important to test your water, regardless of whether you are doing a fishless or fish-in cycle.
BlindDogStanley is currently going through a fish-in cycle, so it might be worth asking him how he's getting on.
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OK.. Can I ask.. What fish is in your photo littlefish?
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If you cannot or will not afford Ammonia, why not use fish-food and allow it to rot in the tank and use that as your source of Ammonia.
Surely that would be more humane than to force healthy fish to swim in their own waste, just in order to ready the tank for others.
Fish-in cycling happens when you get bad advice from a fish shop, as I did and as happened with BlindDogStanley, but in 2016 with access to good advice there really is no excuse in choosing to undertake a fish-in cycle.
Fish-in cycling by choice is considered, rightly in my opinion, by many people as cruel.
I really couldn't ever condone it as a method of choice.
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Following Extreme One's helpful comments, I would also really advise that you wait well beyond April before getting panda cories or otocincluses (otocincli?) into the tank. Sue has explained this very well in her earlier posting:
wait till the tank has been running a few months after it finishes cycling before getting the cories. Pandas are one of the more delicate species and it is better to wait until the biofilm, with all its micro-organisms, has established all over the tank tank and decor.
Fishkeeping is often a lot more expensive than anticipated at the outset, but it is the fishkeeper's responsibility to ensure the welfare of the fish, and being able to afford water testing kits, dechlorinator, fish medication, etc, and doing regular water changes, is all part of that. I certainly don't want to put you off, but if you're struggling to afford the ammonia now, then it might possibly be worth having a good think as to whether this "project" is something that might be best done in a few years' time and whether there is a more suitable alternative "project" for now. :)
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The fish in my photo is one of my dwarf puffer fish. They are adorable. I currently have 6 in a 125L species only tank. I wouldn't recommend that you consider these fish, mainly because they require consistent, excellent water quality, are very messy eaters, and are prone to things like white spot. I have also spent a small fortune on things for the tank, silk plants, real plants, bogwood, granite caves etc. as they like lots of places to hide, they can be a bit territorial and they need a lot of things to keep them interested.
Unfortunately starting most interests/hobbies that require equipment are a bit expensive.
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Thanks simon and fcfm
I will try to add in the fish food but to what amount each day. I know that catfish prefer a tank that has been cycled and introduced 1 month later in April. Thanks for the advice, I'm learning loads ;D
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I will try to add in the fish food but to what amount each day.
This is the problem with not using Ammonia and clearly demonstrates another reason why it's essential to be able to test for Ammonia (and later Nitrites).
Using a test kit will allow you to test the water after the food has began decomposing, and when you have a reading of 3ppm of Ammonia you know (roughly) how much food you would need to add next time.
However, as the food will take some time to break down it might be a few days before it's converted to Ammonia, and only then will you know if you'll need to add more or less next time.
This is a very imprecise way of doing it, hence why it's preferable to use Ammonia and a syringe. That way you know exactly how many millilitres of Ammonia to add each time to acheive the correct concentration.
And unless you have a test kit you'll never know at what stage you are in the cycle, and how will you know when the cycle is complete and it's safe to add fish.
Have you read the guide here (http://www.thinkfish.co.uk/forums/fishtank-filtration-and-cycling/fishless-cycling-how-to-do-it/)?
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Yes I have.. I just don't have the money :-(
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Sue has told me that having too many kribs is bad as they will squabble. The pet shop won't take them so by using them in a fish in cycle would be ideal since it reduces the impact on the community tank and they produce more waste so there will be more bacteria.
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Personally, and don't take this the wrong way please - I'm simply sharing my opinion as you've asked for advice, I'd think having Kribs squabble would still be far preferable to having Kribs potentially suffering in a fish-in.
Having lost several Guppies in a fish-in has made me extremely squeamish about inflicting that on other fish.
In any case, even if you do decide to use the Kribs, you still need to test the water to monitor the cycle and inform you when to change water etc.
Why not leave the Kribs where they are for now, put the Endlers in the community and save some pocket money for a bottle of Ammonia and the Ammonia and Nitrite tests.
Then, when you have everything you need you can start the process correctly and safely.
No need to rush, Rome wasn't built in a day.
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Otinoculus would be very sad and lonely if you only had 2 so please don't buy them as it would be unkind.
I think you need to ask your Dad for some help here, if he owns a tank himself, he must have a test kit. Why don't you offer to do the washing up everyday if he gets you use his test kit?
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He doesn't have a test kit because he kept fish when they didn't exist... Put 2/4 kribs in with soaked bog wood and anubias Nana.
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Oh.. Thanks Fiona for the Otto tip... Mabe get a hillstream since they do okay onthei own.
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Please research all fish before buying.
Hillstream loach (http://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/sewellia-lineolata/)
Copied from Seriously Fish
Minimum base dimensions of 75 ∗ 30 cm are recommended for general care
Your tank is smaller than that.
Temperature: Can tolerate higher temperatures provided its oxygen requirements are maintained but for general aquarium care a value of 20 – 24 °C is recommended.
The other fish need warmer temps.
The water must be clean, well-oxygenated, and ideally turn over 15-20 times per hour so we suggest the use of an over-sized filter as a minimum requirement plus additional powerheads, airstones, etc., as necessary.
Can your tank provide these?
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I think you'll find our tank is too small for hillstream loaches, they need at least a 60cm tank.
The thing with fishkeeping is you have to buy the right fish. They have to be happy with the size of the tank and the type of water you have. If you don't do these things the fish may survive but they wont be happy. Fishkeepers want fish to be happy. I mean if your parents made you live in a cupboard with no computer or games, you'd survive but you'd be very miserable.
When I started keeping fish I learned that there were some fish I couldn't have because my water was too hard. So I looked for fish that would be happy and that is part of the fun of fishkeeping :)
edited to add: you beat me to it Sue :)
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OK... My tank is in its first day of fish in cycle. I have bogwood with plants strapped to it with fishing line and the 3 kribs are doing fine ;D
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As you dont have a test kit you're going to need to do water changes every day at least once a day
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Did the bogwood and plants come from the main tank or are they brand new? If they came from the main tank they should have a few bacteria on them which will help with the cycle a bit. But not much.
What happened to just 2 kribs?
As you dont have a test kit you're going to need to do water changes every day at least once a day
For several weeks
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As you dont have a test kit you're going to need to do water changes every day at least once a day
For several weeks
At least 6 I would imagine.
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Dad put ceramic and sponges from his filtrations into mine, the bogwood and plants are new and dad said 3 kribs are better than 2 for starting the cycle.
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Well if you're going to make fish suffer unnecessarily it may as well be three fish as two fish. :vcross:
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I understand your worry... But as sue has told me, kribs squabbling in a community is NOT GOOD as I have seen. Also... This adds to the bioload so I can put more fish in. His is only to get the cycle started before I put the endlers in. Sorry if this worry's you but I'm torn between the forums and my dad so please understand my decision but the advice is greatly apriciated
Apache6467
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Hopefully the ceramic and sponge from the main tank will help to get things started quickly.
Make sure that you do the regular water changes, etc. that Sue and Fiona have mentioned, and keep a very close eye on the fish to make sure that they aren't suffering from the toxins.
Keep us updated on your progress.
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Dad put ceramic and sponges from his filtrations into mine, the bogwood and plants are new and dad said 3 kribs are better than 2 for starting the cycle.
This is where the hard work begins, to try to keep these 3 fish alive, so I'll be keeping my fingers very tightly crossed for them. Don't forget that you will absolutely have to do daily water changes - as you don't have a test kit, it will be impossible to know how much (whether 10% or 50%) but I'd advise at least 25% of the water will need replaced daily with dechlorinated water. Keep this up every single day until at least the end of April - don't miss a day! (It might be possible that the tank is cycled fully before that, but, without a test kit, you'll not know, so better to be safe than sorry and continue until the end of April at least.)
Ordinarily, I'd advise other measures as well, such as using Seachem Prime as your dechlorinator and which helps detoxify the effects of ammonia and nitrite on the fish, making it less hazardous and painful for them, and possibly Tetra Safestart which might help and speed up the cycling process. However, as you've mentioned not being able to afford these, this will mean being very, very careful to make sure that you keep up the daily water changes. Two 25% water changes per day would be better than one - so try to do that morning and evening if at all possible.
Best of luck. Everyone on here will no doubt be keeping fingers and toes tightly crossed for your 3 kribs, in much the same way as they would if you were adopting a dog and keeping it in a straitjacket inside a cardboard box for some time ie hoping desperately that it survives the process and comes out unscathed afterwards. :)
Keep us posted on how things are going, and also on your thoughts/plans for May onwards once the cycling process is hopefully completed - we'll be happy to advise on which fish are or aren't suitable. Try not to get your heart set on any particular type of fish too soon - have a think, take a look at the Fish Profiles on this website, check them against the similar profiles on Seriously Fish website, and see if they're suitable for your tank size and water hardness, then let us know what you're thinking of. We can then advise whether that is a good or bad idea, and, once it looks as though there are some fish that would live happily in your tank, you can then start to enjoy looking forward to getting them. [When I first started tropical fishkeeping, I went to look at fish in the local fish shop, and got quite excited by guppies, mollies and platies; however, I started researching on this website, and soon learned that they would not be at all suitable for my very soft water, so I had to have a big rethink. Once I found which fish were suitable for my very soft water and my small tank, I only looked for those types of fish in the shops. It's wonderful to watch how happy, well-coloured and healthy these fish are now - and it certainly beats the pain of watching an ill/injured or dying fish which would have happened if I'd got unsuitable fish, as well as saving me lots of money buying replacement fish or extra medicines to treat them.]
I'd better sign off from this long posting otherwise you'll fall asleep and might forget to do a water change :yikes: . All the best.
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The fighting kribs - the best option is to rehome as many as necessary. That's what I always advise when things are not working out in a tank.
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I kept fish as a kid. I basically did it all myself without parents getting involved. I would have loved the knowledge available to me know, then. I kept a cast iron framed (I think) 36" X 18" x 12", on a rickety stand, under gravel filter, heater and air stone. I used to go to my LPS (It's alleged it's the one The Pet Shop Boys lived above and where they got their name from, no idea if true or urban myth but it was in Springfield Rd, Ealing) As a 10,11,12 year old they would sell me all manor of fish. I once came home with a 'Jack Dempsey' even though I had a community tank. They never once mentioned anything about cycling although I did weekly water changes, but without any water treatments. Now that I know what I know this seems barbaric at the very least. The Jack Dempsey eventually ate everything. It's so good we can now find a vast wealth of knowledge from forums like this. :)
P.S. Don't blame my parents!
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:cheers: the kribs look very healthy and their bodies are flushed red! Hopefully this is avoid sign...
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The toxins will only just be starting to build up, so they would look ok now
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Gonna do a water change when I get home from school at 4-5ish
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It's a good idea to get in to the routine of doing the water changes after school.
None of us want to deal with too much hassle in the mornings when we are rushing to get out of the house.
Best of luck with your fish-in cycle.
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thanks littlefish! the kribs are feeding and are generally looking healthy. i will be using tetra (i think) tapsafe for the dechlorinator.
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If there's any possibility of you being able to get Seachem Prime as your dechlorinator, it's very good - it lasts for absolutely ages, and so very economical, but has the huge advantage of detoxifying the effects of ammonia and nitrite, which would be a huge advantage for you during the fish-in cycle and especially as you don't know what your ammonia and nitrite readings are ie it makes any ammonia and nitrite that is in there less harmful to the fish for the next 24 hours, so each daily water change would ensure sufficient quantities to last you through until the next water change.
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Excellent advice fcmf. That makes the way Apache's cycle is being done a bit safer for the fish involved. :)
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;D mum says she will order it if I do some hovering!!! Thanks fcmf, just wondering what it stands for if fcmf stands for anything? (Hope I'm not being rude)
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Excellent! If you've done your water change today, and once you've done your homework, hoovering will be the next task. :)
As for what fcmf stands for, now that would be giving away a secret... Let's just say that they're the first letters of 4 different words of personal significance - and, no, I can absolutely assure you that there are no bad words involved among them!
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I meant me being rude by asking but thanks ;D
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It's great that your Mum has offered to get the Seachem Prime in exchange for chores.
I'm sure the fish will appreciate it.
:fishy1:
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Ordered and on its way :)
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I meant me being rude by asking but thanks ;D
I knew you meant that, and that's very kind of you to apologise if you were being rude, but you weren't, so no probs.
Very pleased to hear that you're getting the Seachem Prime. Great news.
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well, I put the endlers in and one female got eaten by a krib... definetly thinking of getting just panda cories so I don't have to remove the eggs, as for the endlers if they get eaten, they get eaten
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well, I put the endlers in and one female got eaten by a krib... definetly thinking of getting just panda cories so I don't have to remove the eggs, as for the endlers if they get eaten, they get eaten
Oooooh, Apache, that's horrible - I couldn't have fish in a tank where I know that there's a real risk of one eating another. :'( I would consider that irresponsible fishkeeping.
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... as for the endlers if they get eaten, they get eaten
>:( I'm sure I'm not the only person that's extremely disappointed to read such an irresponsible comment.
This whole thread has been the perfect example of how not to plan an aquarium.
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I had to read that twice as well Simon. Oh dear... :-\
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This is a perfect example of why it's illegal under the Animal Welfare Act 2006 to sell pets including fish to under 16s. I had hoped this thread might have had a positive outcome and shown how some young people can be mature enough to hold such responsibilities but it's left me very disheartened - as well as upset for the welfare of the fish.
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I'm a bit lost for words here. :(
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I think the others have said it all.
It is one thing for a fish to be eaten when the owner had no idea that this could happen, for example when one fish doesn't look big enough to eat the other, but to deliberately leave the remaining endlers in with the kribs is very irresponsible.
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I'm not going to waste any more of my time on such an irresponsible, cruel person.
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Look.. I know I have done wrong... I cannot sort out the problem and DO want to keeo these fish alive but I cannot do anything because the people who are going to take the kribs are delayed. I am deeply sorry and my regret is high. Thanks for all your advice
... Post back when you/I feel I am ready... Still going for corys, maybe this is a good lesson to learn in life...
Sorry :'(
Apache6467
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It may be that there's an alternative solution. Can you remind us what you have in the 180-litre tank? It might be that some swapping around of fish in each tank can be done in order to make the best of the situation but, before we can advise on that, a reminder of what fish are in each tank would be helpful.
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You still have a tank downstairs, don't you?
Couldn't you explain to your dad that the Endlers need to be moved back in as the Kribs will eat them?
Even if you have Kribs in your dad's tank the Endlers will surely have a chance of hiding, unlike in your small tank.
You have been given so much good advice and have acted on hardly any of it. Perhaps you can start doing the right thing ...
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Hi Apache.
I thought that I would get in touch and let you know the reason why I was so disappointed and confused earlier today. To do so I will need to refer to some of your previous quotes...
I understand your worry... But as sue has told me, kribs squabbling in a community is NOT GOOD as I have seen. Also... This adds to the bioload so I can put more fish in. His is only to get the cycle started before I put the endlers in. Sorry if this worry's you but I'm torn between the forums and my dad so please understand my decision but the advice is greatly apriciated
Apache6467
This post appeared to be written by an articulate person who had considered a situation, understands that others do not agree, but has given the reason for the decision in a very polite manner.
Look.. I know I have done wrong... I cannot sort out the problem and DO want to keeo these fish alive but I cannot do anything because the people who are going to take the kribs are delayed. I am deeply sorry and my regret is high. Thanks for all your advice
... Post back when you/I feel I am ready... Still going for corys, maybe this is a good lesson to learn in life...
Sorry :'(
Apache6467
This post appears to have been written by the same person as the one above. It is articulate, expresses regret and remorse for what has happened, and indicates that lessons could be learned from the situation.
The first of your posts today is a different matter.
well, I put the endlers in and one female got eaten by a krib... definetly thinking of getting just panda cories so I don't have to remove the eggs, as for the endlers if they get eaten, they get eaten
It almost feels as if this post has been written by a different person to the one that I thought we had come to know on the forum. This post appears to imply that the person who wrote it is immature, heartless and thoughtless. I was so confused because I did not expect to read a post like this from you.
If you also note how others on the forum have reacted to your posts. The negative post provoked negative responses.
The later post, which was more like what I'd expect from you, provoked more positive responses, with people considering the situation and trying to offer helpful suggestions to bring about the most positive outcome for you and the fish.
I sincerely hope that the best can be made of this situation. Please consider the advice being given by the forum members for the wellbeing of your fish, and continue to take responsibility for your pets.
Take care.
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Thanks... I may be able to put the endlers on the bog tank in the fry trap as the angels will eat them. Speaking of fry... Kribs just had some in the main tank!
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Putting the endlers back in the main tank now...
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Even better... In the fry trap in the small tank to add to the bioload... Hard to catch though
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This situation is all a bit of a mess, isn't it?
If the endlers are in danger with the kribs (which they are, as you've sadly experienced), and you have angelfish (which again would put the endlers in danger, although they would have more places to hide in the bigger tank), then there only seems to be one logical conclusion as to what you should do, to ensure the welfare of the fish as it’s unlikely they’ll be happy in a tiny fry trap. Hopefully you have worked out for yourself what this logical conclusion is, but, if not, it is to keep the endlers in the small tank on their own (not in the fry trap where it's likely the stress of such a confined space will affect them negatively), and to put the kribs back in the main tank.
However, you mentioned the kribs fighting in their larger numbers but, in my opinion, this is likely to be better than certain death of the endlers in with the kribs or angelfish or stress being inside the tiny fry trap - Sue is probably best placed to advise which is the "best" of these difficult / bad situations, though, so maybe best to wait until she replies.
The "best" option all round is probably to buy a third tank (cheap, plastic ones can be bought in places like The Range), heater and filter, and move either the endlers or kribs from the small tank into that (after transferring mature media from the filter in the main tank into that new filter). However, you then run into the whole risky partial "fish-in" type of cycle situation again.
A responsible fishkeeper needs to be able to work out the sorts of issues above for themselves such as the most logical conclusion of where to place the fish in the circumstances but also a realistic one. If you haven't worked this out, then I don't think that you're ready to be able to take on more fish such as the panda cories you mention. I think you need to wait a few years when hopefully you'll be more mature and able to work these things out for yourself.
Hopefully you recognise that this is all a bit of a mess, and also that humans are not always that reliable (eg the people who were coming to take the kribs) and so you need to be able to plan for that possibility and have contingency plans in place.
How soon are the people likely to turn up who are getting the kribs from you? If they’re not reliable, then you might want to consider advertising on www.aquarist-classifieds.co.uk – that will also increase the likelihood of them going to an experienced and, far more importantly than experience, a responsible fishkeeper.
Hope that helps.
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To be honest I'm not sure which scenario is best.
If the pair of kribs left in the main tank have spawned, they will not appreciate the three currently in the small tank going back into the main tank. It could end up as a blood bath.
Leaving the endlers in the fry trap is going to stress them, and with just 1 male 1 female the remaining female is going to get badly pestered by the male.
The endlers can't go in with the kribs as they've just proved they'll eat the endlers. They must be quite young endlers for a krib to be able to eat a female as they are quite big fish when they are adult.
The endlers can't go in with the angels as they'd get eaten in that tank.
The only real solution is to remove some fish either to a shop or on aquarist classifieds, the sooner the better. Either take the endlers back to the shop, and once the kribs have gone, get more. Or take the kribs to a shop/advertise on aquarist classifieds. You might have to give the fish away - I find someone on aq class will always take free fish.
I presume another tank is not an option?
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hmmm i think its best to take them back to the pet shop or buy a female when the kribs ae gone (hopefully wednesday) for £1.75... thanks Sue and i saw your betta, i always wanted one but he is Nice
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When we saw the shop had an orange betta, and he was an active perky fish, he was the one to get. Even my husband who isn't in the least interested in fish wanted the orange one.
Bettas are nice fish. All they need is a 25 litre tank all to themselves, or maybe just a snail for company.
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Got good news!
I now have a fully cycled tank!
Also Money can still be an issue but I have a paper round to pay for fish. Pandas in 2 weeks or in may at least
The remaining female endler turned into a male and now has bright colours.
Hopefully I can take one male back and get 3 females for a fiver. I can buy a cheap air stone for the fry tank. Link to the shop is in my other post.
Apache6467
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The remaining female endler turned into a male and now has bright colours.
Were the endlers young? All livebearer fry look like females until they are "teenagers", then the anal fin of male fry turns into gonopodium and colour starts to develop.
Just to check - has the anal fin (the one on its underside just in front of its tail) changed from a fan to a rod or has it just changed colour?
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Congratulations on your fully cycled tank. :cheers:
Also well done for taking on a paper round to earn money.
Best of luck with your current and future fish. :)
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Hopefully I can take one male back and get 3 females for a fiver.
Smart move! In a couple of months you'll be up to your armpits with endlers.
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:cheers: on completing the cycle. Good luck with the next stage.
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Indeed sue they both have gonopodiums.
There is another shop near me which doesn't sell pandas... Would itbe OK if I sold them the juvenile offspring for 50p each or is that out of the question. I have read about spawning mops... Is that a solution to the egg problem or a bad idea. And is a breeding net better than a breeding box?
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It is very unlikely that a shop will pay anything for fry. Most of them won't take fry at all, they will only take fish that are the same size as the ones they are selling. Most shops will not take fish of any species they can buy from the wholesaler for next to nothing. This will apply to endlers, but you might find the odd shop willing to take panda cories - but only when they are well grown. And very few shops will give you anything for them. If you are lucky, they might give you a credit note to spend on goods in that shop. But most shops will just take them off you hands for nothing, if they'll take them at all.
You will have to find somewhere to grow the fry on till they reach a size where a shop would take them, and that means another tank, big enough to take all those fry at adult size. The tank would need to be bigger than the one you breed the original fish in.
Spawning mops are only useful for fish that lay their eggs in clumps of feathery leaved plants, fish like the 'blue eyes', these fish (http://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/search/pseudomugil).
Endlers just drop their fry in the tank, and cories lay their eggs on solid surfaces - glass, rocks, filter, leaves etc.
Breeding nets and boxes are not good for putting female livebearers in till they give birth. They are all very small and the mother will become very stressed. Nets are better for keeping fry in for a week but are also too small to keep fry in for longer than that. To keep fry to grow them on till a shop will take them you need a grow out tank.
Breeding fish is not a thing to do lightly. It costs money to provide the equipment needed to grow the fry on, much more money than you can hope to make by selling them.
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Breeding fish is not a thing to do lightly. It costs money to provide the equipment needed to grow the fry on, much more money than you can hope to make by selling them.
Indeed.
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Whilst on paper round I found a small but friendly LFS which had 3 pandas. I HAD to nag my dad and say I'd lone him on Saturday for them. My dads friend took the kribs and the endlers set free in the tank. They are still settling in and now I have less of a chance of inbreeding!
:fishy1:
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Haha - are you sure you didn't deliberately choose a paper round route that just happened to have a LFS on it?! ;) That sounds like something I would do ie do something or go somewhere that "coincidentally" happened to pass a LFS.
So - the kribs are all gone but you've still got some endlers, is that correct? So are the panda cories in the little tank and the endlers are in the main tank? (I'm a bit confused ???)
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:rotfl:
The pandas and endlers are together
I got given the route and it was just a coincidence ;D
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Thanks. That sounds good.
Brilliant for you with that route you've been given. ;D
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And because the shop owner doesn't import and get pandas very often I can sell the juveniles to him!
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Oh wow - quite the entrepreneur, aren't you? ;)
Worth taking note of Sue's very valuable advice above, though.
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:isay: I brought them at roughly 2.5/3cm and he syas I can sell them to him at that size... Quite smalp
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I have my tank next to my PC so while watching the pandas eating tetra prima I thought maybe just to keep a few male endlers and spawn pandas. I watched a good vid on how to spawn them (search "breeding Cory cats" and watch it for yourself) and found that on this website (fish-ect.com/knowledge/1174-2) and found a quote that ... How can I put this... Defies sue saying corys don't use mops "I was surprised to learn that some species of corydoras catfish will deposit eggs in a yarn mop. - the first Cory I worked with that used a mop was C. panda, which is a relatively easy Cory catfish to breed" -Ted Judy
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That's interesting! Whenever cories I've had laid eggs they always used the glass or the filter. But I've never kept panda cories.
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That's so funny that your paper round includes a LFS, you couldn't have chosen a better route yourself. :)
Also great news that the owner has said that you can sell the panda cory offspring back to him. ;D
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So I made a breeding mop and steralysed (can't spell :yikes: ) it. Wondering if I need to use seachem to neutralise the chlorine?
On a sadder note my original male endler died and I now have the one male. See my other topic.
Apache6467
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What is the mop made of and how did you sterilise it?
I had some Pseudomugils many years ago and I made mops out of knitting yarn which I sterilised by putting them in a pan of boiling water. This made the strands unravel a bit but they were even better then for spawning mops - lots and lots of finer strands. Then all I needed to do was swish them in the bucket of dechlorinated water when I did the next water change as there wouldn't have been much chlorine left in the water on the mops as the heat would have driven off most of the chlorine.
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Just green wool. Sterlysed in hot water
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So I decided to put 2 drops of seachem in the pan with the mop to make sure its safe
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Just green wool. Sterlysed in hot water
That sounds like what I did. Using Prime in the water won't harm but just rinsing the mops in a bit of dechlorinated water would have been more than enough for future reference.
Chlorine gasses off in about a day at room temp, even faster if you put an air stone in the water. Heating the water to boiling will also drive out the chlorine.
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its been a while since my last post :yikes: finishing my mock GCSEs
when i got the last 3 pandas i spotted a baby fish of some sort in with them. i quickly rescued it i the fry trap and it is growing steadily. the pandas all swim together as a group and they look so cute ;D
i am thinking mbe getting 5 glass cats (£25) to sit in the mid water. should i go ahead?
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Don't glass cats need a bigger tank than 50 litres? I can't check because all I get with Seriously Fish is error message 404 'not found' :-\
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Glad your new additions are going well, Apache. Hope the mock GCSEs have been going well too.
I've managed to find Kryptopterus bicirrhis (glass catfish) on Fishbase and it recommends a minimum aquarium size of 100cm length plus a minimum of 10 such fish, with each fish reaching a max length of 15cm in size, so your tank would definitely be too small for these. There are other glass catfish mentioned eg Pareutropius debauwi (African glass catfish) which reach a max length of 10cm in size but it doesn't provide details of minimum aquarium size and numbers other than that they are a shoaling species. Apache - do you know the scientific name for the ones you were thinking about?
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I think they are Kryptopterus Vitreolus
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The Fishbase source says that they grow to 6.5cm, so not as long as the other types, you'll be glad to know. As Sue said, the Seriously Fish website doesn't seem to be working today, and it would definitely be worth waiting to see what it advises once it's up-and-running again.
One type of glassfish is mentioned on the MA website https://fishkeeper.co.uk/databank/freshwater/miscellaneous/humphead-glassfish- and it makes a good point of mentioning that any tankmates should be of the same size otherwise they're at risk of becoming a snack. That generally applies to most fish, so, if you were thinking of getting glassfish, that's something to consider ie from what I've read so far of the different types, they definitely seem to become larger than panda cories and so may well eat the pandas which we definitely don't want happening...
:yikes:
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Have you considered that if you want to breed panda corys the eggs and fry will get eaten by other fish? You can't raise fry in a fry cage or net.
Decide what you want to do with the tank first. Then chose fish that suit your set up, not what you just want to get.
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Seriously Fish is now back so I've looked up Kryptopterus vitreolus. They say they need a tank with of an absolute minimum footprint of 90 x 30 cm.
Seriously Fish also says
may predate on eggs or fry
so Fiona's point should be taken into consideration.
Generally, any fish in the same tank will eat eggs and fry, even the parents. If you want to breed fish you need a tank to put the chosen adults into until they spawn, then (with very few exceptions) the adults should be removed as soon as the eggs have been laid. The exceptions are fish where one or both parents care for the eggs, and then the parents should be removed as soon as the eggs hatch, or where one or other parents look after the fry. Cories do not fit into either of those groups. They lay the eggs then forget about them.
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Well I took your advice and thought, I can't breed glass cats and their too big so why not go for
Rineloricaria parva, Whip tail catfish. I will try to get three in the hope of one of each sex, and I also added a lone orange venuzwalian cory (spelling!) To boost the cory numbers.
Edited to add-I meant Rineloricaria Fallax
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I like the look of those whiptail catfish. 8)
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They do indeed look nice.
You should find some helpful information here http://www.planetcatfish.com/common/species.php?species_id=743 and http://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/rineloricaria-parva/ - the latter website does actually recommend a larger-sized tank than you have, though, so it's really worth doing research in advance by looking at the Thinkfish fish profiles and/or these sites to make sure that you can give them the home they require.
Incidentally, when boosting cory numbers, while a group of at least 6 is always recommended as they are social species that only feel comfortable when in sufficiently sized groups, this applies to each type of cory eg 6 panda cories, 6 habrosus cories, 6 Venezuelan cories, etc, rather than a combination of different types. You won't have room for another 5 Venezuelan cories, but you might find s/he doesn't do as well because of being on its own rather than with its own kind.
Hope this is helpful. :) Also hope your mock GCSEs went well.
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fcmf beat me to it!
I'll add that even if you get the whiptails to breed, you'll still need a separate breeding tank or the eggs will be eaten.
I hadn't realised you wanted to breed the glass catfish. It's a good thing you didn't get them as Seriously Fish says breeding of them has not been recorded, that is they don't breed in aquariums.
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I fear this obsession to breed fish is being undertaken without any serious consideration for their well-being and quite frankly I find it very offensive. :isay:
Maybe I'm just a grumpy ole woman but I feel the issue needs to be raised with the child.
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In that case, I'm a grumpy ole woman as well.
How do you manage to get through that breeding fish is not getting a male and female and hoping for baby fish.
The adult fish must be conditioned to get them in breeding condition, then placed into a breeding tank separate from all other fish.
The parents must be removed as soon as eggs are laid (or in the case where one parent cares for the eggs, remove the other parent, then the caring parent as soon as the eggs hatch).
The fry need to be raised in a nursery tank not a breeding net as they need room to grow.
The fry must be fed very regularly and the tank cleaned daily to remove uneaten food.
The fry need larger grow out tanks as they get bigger.
And last but not least, there must be a market for the juvenile fish.
Extreme One did all this when his agassizi apistos bred. Going back through his thread, he looked after the fry for about 11 weeks before they were big enough to take to a shop for store credit.
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Yup I remember the care, attention to detail and forethought he put into the project. A responsible, mature approach very unlike Apache.
I'm all for encouraging children to have pets and guiding them so they learn that responsibilities are part of pet ownership. Apache however isn't heeding any advice offered to him and just does what he wants anyway. >:(
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Thanks guys. :cheers:
I'm not an expert, as you all know, but I did research carefully before undertaking my little breeding project.
There are several important things to consider.
1. Can you ensure the eggs will be safe from predation?
2. Can you ensure the parents can be rehomed as soon as the eggs are laid? A great many parent fish will eat eggs or fry.
3. Can you provide the correct food and conditions to raise freshly hatched eggs from fry to juvenile fish?
4. What will you do with the surviving juveniles?
5. Why are you doing this? Is it for profit?
FWIW I spent more money on food and equipment than I made by swapping the juveniles for store-credit.
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I think it is very useful to consider all of the questions that you have listed.
I should imagine that the initial set up etc. for a breeding project can be quite costly, and it would take quite a long time, and considerable rounds of breeding, before you would make enough money/store credit to cover those costs.
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I spent more money on food and equipment than I made by swapping the juveniles for store-credit.
Something that Apache fails to understand. Another point of irritation is that despite claims of having no money to buy the basics needed to run a fishless cycle and monitor water quality, he appears to have no problems finding the money to buy fish. Seems to me he's 'playing' at fish keeping, treating fish as toys.
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found some panda eggs in a PVC pipe! currently in a floating fry trap. they are with an air stone and they are turning orange/brown!
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Oooh, panda cory eggs. Cute. Does the colour change mean that they are fertile and going to hatch?
My peppered cory have laid eggs, but have usually eaten them before anything else happens. I did find one tiny fry a while back, but haven't seen it since.
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only 3 eggs left...
In that case, I'm a grumpy ole woman as well.
I fear this obsession to breed fish is being undertaken without any serious consideration for their well-being and quite frankly I find it very offensive.
Fiona and Sue, i have taken into account of what you have said and i know that my planning is not at your standard but this is my first aquarium. This tank has been my independence and my pride and joy. I hope to have pictures up soon.
Sorry if I have offended you
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only 3 eggs left...
Fiona and Sue, i have taken into account of what you have said and i know that my planning is not at your standard but this is my first aquarium. This tank has been my independence and my pride and joy. I hope to have pictures up soon.
Sorry if I have offended you
Apache, we fully appreciate your enthusiasm for the hobby and you will continue to have support here. But I feel I should come in here and attempt to "clear the air"
As hobbyists we have a responsibility to do everything we can to ensure the health and welfare of the animals we choose to buy and keep in our "artificial environments." By association, we have a responsibility to provide help and advice to others with this as our top priority. I have no doubt you will struggle to find any others who care about fish as much as the likes of our @Sue and @fcmf and any of us who post here on a regular basis.
It is refreshing to see someone so young take an interest in the hobby and for the most part you seem to appreciate the welfare of the fish. But - if I may - you seem to be "jumping in at the deep end" a bit with going from Zero to Breeding in one step. I know I would not have the confidence on my own to attempt such a venture straight out of the gate. Hence I would take heed of the advice these lovely people have offered you and either work hard to follow the advice, or accept that maybe a different direction for your first tank would be wise and return to a breeding project later.
One other thing I am acutely aware of is the overwhelming instinct to follow the advice and instruction of a trusted parent. My own dad kept an abundance of fish over the years and while he did things mostly right, he does not have the information available to us now (as all old-school fishkeepers have. It's nothing personal, but things have moved on and we understand so much more nowadays about what these fish go through to satisfy our whim).
So please don't take these comments to heart. You have the freedom to do whatever you decide is right for you and the direction of your project. We cannot stop you but we will advise against any potential maltreatment of living animals. What you will have to appreciate is that if you continue to seek advice here and consequently decide you don't like the advice or go against it, you will inevitably get less members willing to contribute in the future.
I hope this has helped provide you with an insight into how the members may feel. On behalf of the mod team I would like to repeat that you will always have support here, provided you demonstrate that you hold the ethics of the membership.
Number one priority is the fishes welfare. Everything else comes later.
#Thinkfish
P.S. I personally look forward to your pics ;)
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Superb post @Paddyc :cheers:
Very well put.
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Thanks @Paddyc I feel much better :cheers:
The pics from a smartphone aren't that clear. The eggs are in the tube in the last pic at the back. :blank: :fishy1: :blank:
Oh drat thepics are too large :rotfl: :rotfl:
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Apache, please feel free to join Colin and myself in the fuzzy blur photo club. :)
Looking forward to seeing the pics.
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Apache, please feel free to join Colin and myself in the fuzzy blur photo club. :)
Looking forward to seeing the pics.
:rotfl: maybe I'll post in the gallery as a separate thread
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Apache, please feel free to join Colin and myself in the fuzzy blur photo club. :)
Looking forward to seeing the pics.
:rotfl: maybe I'll post in the gallery as a separate thread
It might prove easier to use (or create if you don't have one) an account with a hosting site such as photobucket or imgur.com. I have both and have been using imgur.com as the app is very easy to upload images with but it's not so easy to copy and paste links. I use the laptop to post links.
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I use Picasa to 'store' all my photos and just past the url between the [ img ]url[ /img ] tags (without the spaces!).
Here's a neat trick, boys'n'girls. If the photo is too big for the screen (or your aesthetic yearning) the you can re-size it like:
[ img width=400 ]url[ /img ] and thet makes it 400pixels wide - a good width for the forum - and adjusts the height to suit.
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ty colin but i still don't understand :-\
I use Picasa to 'store' all my photos and just past the url between the [ img ]url[ /img ] tags (without the spaces!).
Here's a neat trick, boys'n'girls. If the photo is too big for the screen (or your aesthetic yearning) the you can re-size it like:
[ img width=400 ]url[ /img ] and thet makes it 400pixels wide - a good width for the forum - and adjusts the height to suit.
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Do you have off-site picture storage, or do you keep all your piccies on your computer?
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Do you have off-site picture storage, or do you keep all your piccies on your computer?
i have them on my phone
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Do you have off-site picture storage, or do you keep all your piccies on your computer?
i have them on my phone
Ah. I don't think that's going to work direct from your phone. Can you download/bluetooth them to a computer?
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Do you use only your smartphone to post on the forum? Or do you own a PC? If you really only wish to use a smartphone there are things you can do. Photobucket and Imgur both have their own apps. You download the app, obviously you need to register and open a new, free account as neither of them charge money.
Once you have an account you can start to upload photos to photobucket/imgur. Depending on your internet connection this could take a few minutes depending on how many images you are uploading and obviously the speed of your upload connection.
Once the photos are stored you can select and copy a unique link per picture and copy the link into your replies. I have successfully managed to trial this just now on both photobucket and imgur. If you need help I'll do my best.
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Link to pictures here
https://goo.gl/photos/Qxa3fo9cM3pRjaj26
Bertha says enjoy :fishy1:
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Very good, Apache. I'm glad you've named her - hope Bertha does well. Keep us posted on the progress.
Out of interest, is the big tank a corner tank? It didn't look like it in the first couple of pics but it did in the next few.
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Yes its a juwel sumut or other
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Glad you got the piccies sorted, Apache. That's a good lookin' tank.
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@ColinB which one?
#I think berta spawned whilst i was away for a day because the walls were 'swimming with eggs :rotfl: ' I moved bertha and her two other bronze cories in a week ago and the magic has happened. Pics soonish ::)
@Littlefish @Sue @Extreme_One @Fiona @Robert #EGGS ARE HERE
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Many congratulations. :cheers:
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Congratulations. Exciting times! :cheers:
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A bit young to be a parent, me thinks! Kids these days, eh? :)) :))
Many congratulations on your fishy offspring - I bet you're very proud! :cheers:
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Congratulations Apache and good luck with the eggs.
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See what happens as soon as you turn your back, Apache? ;)
Congratulations. :cheers:
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So now i think the time to revive my thread has come. I now have: 5 Panda Cories, 2 Julii Cories, 4 Common Whiptails and 6 Glass Catfish.
They are all doing well on a diet of Tetra Prima, Hugo Kamashi catfish pellets and KB Catfish Pellets.
Algae has become a problem and i wondering if Otocinculus or a bristlenose would be an option
Thoughts Welcome,
Apache6467
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Are these fish still in a 50 litre tank (as in your signature)?
If this is the tank, you can't get any more fish I'm afraid. Using the CC, and adding 8 panda cories instead of 5 pandas + 2 of the bigger juliis (2 juliis = 3 pandas) and 6 glass catfish comes to 168% stocked. And you have whiptails on top of that so you will be well over 200% stocked - in other words you have twice as many fish as are suitable for a 50 litre tank.
The algae could well be the result of having too many fish - lots of nitrate being made by the bacteria and lots of phosphate from the fish food will create an imbalance that will allow algae to flourish.
We did tell you earlier in the thread that a 50 litre tank is not big enough for glass catfish - they need a tank with a base 90 cm (3 ft) x 30 cm (1 ft) which a 50 litre tank can't be unless it is extremely shallow. Common whiptails need a tank of the same size. And so do julii cories.
In fact the only fish you have suitable for a 50 litre tank are the panda cories.
So rather than get more fish for this tank to eat algae, you need to remove about half the fish in there or upgrade to a tank at least double the size.
Of course if 50L means a 50 gallon long tank rather than 50 litre, that's different.