Tropical Fish Forum
Tropical Fish Keeping Help and Advice => New Fishkeepers => Topic started by: Marcus_F on September 10, 2019, 05:03:33 PM
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Hi,
New to the site and just starting to look at setting up a tropical tank. Had one two decades ago which ran fine and for my kids I have a nice 25litre tank going but I want to go up in size and give the fish something bigger.
The space the tank is going in is the corner of our living room, both a 70cm long rectangle unit fits (100litres) but also a square unit which would be 180litres. I like the idea of 180 litres as it means I can get more fish without getting near the max stocking levels but one thing I've seen with the cube units is the height of the tank 62cm. Looks quite high in my untrained eye so I was thinking will have trouble getting plants to grow and fill the space and be left with a lot of empty space?
Also just reading up on substrate for planted aquariums, previously it's always just been gravel but I'm seeing a load of other options like Carib Sea Eco-Complete. Another minefield to get my head round so I'll start searching on here.
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Hi Marcus, welcome to the forum :wave:
I'll leave the plants question for someone else as I have just slow growing plants attached to wood.
Something to take into consideration is that with the cubic tank, although the volume is large the swimming length is less than with a rectangular tank of the same volume. This means that although you can stock the same total fish length as a rectangular tank, the fish need to be smaller, sedate fish. Fast swimming fish need the longer length of the rectangular tank. But if you are happy to stock smallish sedate fish, a cubic tank is fine.
Plain sand is another option for the substrate, particularly if you want bottom dwelling fish. It is not necessary to have specific plant substrates; plain sand with root tablets (or liquid fertiliser for plants growing on decor) should work well. Play sand is a very cheap, good quality sand, it just needs a fair amount of washing to get rid of the dust. It has to be good quality as children are prone to eating it :)
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Welcome to the forum :wave:
I wasn't entirely sure from your post whether you meant you were transferring the fish from the 25-litre tank to the new tank. If that is the case, what fish are they? That might determine which size of the potential new tanks is best.
Which fish were you thinking of stocking?
Another factor to bear in mind is that some tanks are indeed quite high which can make maintenance difficult unless you're fortunate enough to be particularly tall with long arms. You'd need to be able to make sure you can reach the bottom of the tank at the back of it, in each corner, if required.
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Thanks for the replies, had thought about swimming and size of fish. We have two yoko loach in small tank which will be transferred along with neon tetras. The loaches will be the biggest we go for I think, will be more tetras, guppies and similar sized community fish. I’m not fascinated by any one fish so i’m not dreaming of one type so if tank size dictates fish I can’t have it’s not a major issue.
I do like Angel fish and tiger barbs but from my original tank years ago I recall they were not a good mix especially the angel with little tetras.
Had not thought about the depth and requirement to reach the bottom. I am 6”3” and it wont be in an awkward position but it’s something I hadn’t considered. Could be awkward trimming plants (if I get any to grow ::) )
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Substrates:
Gravel - vacuuming the gravel I personally find to be a real chore... inert not good for plants
Sand - good natural choice, good for bottom dwellers and natural behaviours. Can have a nutrient rich base layer underneath this for plants. Root tabs good too.
Planting substrate - often a bit OTT cost wise BUT very good for plants. I personally use them behind rocks where I'm going to plant and have a cosmetic sand or gravel in front if that. Look for one with a high CEC (cation exchange capacity) not necessarily one with loads of nutrients in as these will get depleted. High CEC meaning it will make any liquid ferts you dose readily available to the plant roots.
Plants:
There are a lot of easy plants you can grow without lots of uneccessary expense. There is an aquascaping section on here with a lot of good advice in this space including laying out the tank and what you need to do to care for the plants. Also my website at www.scapeeasy.co.uk (http://www.scapeeasy.co.uk)
Square or Rectangle:
Thought I would answer this from the perspective of an aquascaper (only) given you'll get lots of "fishkeeper" views from the others... rectangular all the way. Cube tanks are very hard to get looking right. Using that height to its full effect can be difficult to do well.
I feel like I could write on and on... let me know initial thoughts and I would be happy to help further rather than bombard you with loads of detail about options you might not be keen on now...
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Thank you, I was thinking square could be really difficult to get not looking half full. I've seen online examples of extravagant aquascaping but very aware that I'm not the most creative and it's a big challenge let along my first attempt. However having said that, if I were to go square I would think I'd take the option of very very large piece of interesting bog wood or other variety and use plants which I can attach and allow to grow at all levels. Adding low level plants around the base, almost making it a centre piece and the outsides fairly bare. In my mind it looks amazing, reality probably not.
My only real concern with the rectangle tank I've seen is the depth, it's 76cm in length which is perfect for our gap but as we're looking at Aqua Oak tanks then the depth for this tank is just 32cm which seems very shallow to add some decent planting and landscape. Guessing you would need to build up the sides and leave the centre fairly open.
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Decided to go for square, more room for fish and extras. I was worried a 30cm depth was too little for nice plants, rocks and wood.
Will fit the area better too as it’s going here.....
(Photo to come soon)
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Hi Marcus,
Welcome to the forum! :wave:
The only thing I would add is that 62cm height is a deep tank. My community tank is 55cm height and my arm will only just stretch to the bottom. But I'm not 6'3''.
JPC
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Thanks, I've been measuring depths and my arm reach and I can reach 60cm without the need for steps so it looks like I'll be ok.
I'm reading up on substrate now, I had not really thought about soil and then gravel or sand. I had always thought pick one only.
I loved the idea of white sand, but in the 24l tank, it's so dirty, just shows up everything and looks awful. Might have try go with an all black type of substrate.
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White substrates are also not good for fish. They reflect too much light back into the tank which causes stress. If you think about rivers and lakes, they all have dark coloured bottoms and this is what fish 'expect'. Go with black or another darkish colour, just make sure it is smooth and not sharp if you want bottom dwellers :)
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As a few 'starters for ten' based on an old post I unearthed, some dark substrate options are: Caribsea black Tahitian moon sand; Aqua One black silica sand; Unipac granite black aquarium sand; Seachem Flourite black sand; JBL Sansibar Dark or River; Aqua Range Aqua Substrate black sand.
To help narrow down your choice of fish, check what your water hardness is from your water/utility company website. This can usually be found by typing in your postcode, and the CaCO3 or German degrees hardness will be cited for your particular location. The reason I mention this is because you mention neon tetra (great for soft water) and guppies (great for hard water), and so it's unlikely that both will suit your water. Let us know what your water hardness is, and the unit(s) of measurement, and we'll advise further on potential options of fish for you.
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I'll check the hardness but fairly certain it will be hard hard hard. I've realised I said Neon Tetra's I meant Cardinal, not sure if that makes a difference.
I'm yet to fully look at fish, I'' start to browse them once I have the tank set up as mentioned before I'm not sold on any one fish so I'm happy for my tank to dictate the fish rather than setting my tank up to house a certain fish.
Thanks for the substrate options.
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Water Hardness figures:
Total Hardness: 340 mg/l
Degrees English (or Clarke) 23.8
Degrees German 19.04
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I'm not sold on any one fish so I'm happy for my tank to dictate the fish rather than setting my tank up to house a certain fish.
That's great - and probably best to start a new thread when it comes to the time that you're thinking about potential fish.
For now, though, your water hardness is useful. The total hardness is the same as PPM, while the German degrees is often written as dGH or dH. The species profiles at Seriously Fish are a bit more specific and up-to-date about each species' water requirements, and your water would be ideal for guppies (range 143-536 ppm) and endlers (range 15-35 dH), and this https://forums.thinkfish.co.uk/new-fishkeepers/list-of-fish-suitable-for-high-ph-and-hard-water/ might be useful as some possibilities.
Unfortunately, cardinals or the yo-yo loach won't fare very well in your water (require range of 18-215 ppm and 36-215 ppm respectively) i.e. will likely have a shortened lifespan, unless you decide to use RO water https://www.thinkfish.co.uk/article/testing-for-ph-and-hardness-in-an-aquarium which will let you keep softer-water fish. Yo-yo loach ultimately need a tank of 120cm long https://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/botia-almorhae/ - sometimes LFSs will take on fish which aren't in a suitable tank size or you can sell them or give them away locally on Aquarist Classifieds.
Hope that's helpful in the meantime but, when it comes to the time of deciding on fish, all this and potential options can be discussed on a new thread.
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Thanks, I do have a water softner tap in the kitchen but not sure if a) that will help for fish keeping and b) be a viable option as it's not exactly fast flowing like a tap, even 20% of 180 litres would take me all day.
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It depends on the type of softener. Those that soften the water using salt cannot be used for fish. They replace the hardness minerals (calcium, magnesium and a few trace minerals) with sodium, and fish have not evolved to cope with a lot of sodium in the water.
Soft water fish need a low TDS as well as soft water. TDS is total dissolved solids, and means everything dissolved in the water. Swapping calcium etc for sodium does not lower TDS.
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Hi Marcus,
With reference to the substrate, as Matt mentioned, it is not uncommon to have more than one layer. At the bottom, you may wish to consider a layer that will be beneficial to the plants. Then, above that, a layer of sand, etc. George Farmer, whose name is synonymous with aquascaping, did a detailed review of substrate materials here:
https://www.ukaps.org/index.php?page=guide-to-substrates
JPC
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Hi there @Marcus_F :wave:
Apologies for joining in late, work seems to be getting in the way of my fish forum time. ::)
It's not often I meet someone with harder water than myself (17dH german), and you may find this article helpful
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/fwsubwebindex/fwhardness.htm
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Thank you all, I'm taking this all in and think I'm slowly working out what I'm going to do.
The tank will be square covering 55 x 60 surface area.
Substrate I might go for one of the specialist all in one like Caribsea Eco-Complete, I can see me getting into a mess doing layers and adding water and it mixing. I try and be gentle but often heavy handed by mistake haha. The one substrate will be more forgiving.
As for design, I'm looking at large driftwood, an unusual piece to sit dead centre of the tank and become the focal point. I'm thinking of then attaching plants such as java fern to the wood so I can fill the full height of the space, leaving it to just plants in the substrate will leave the top very bare still.
Had a browse of the hard water fish and seems there is still plenty of choice so I'm not concerned yet but that will come later.
Filter I will probably get a JBL model, seemed impressed with them. Heater I'll stick to the norm of having it separate hidden in the tank somewhere and add a black background.
Think I've got it all worked out in my head. Going to read up now the steps to adding the substrate, plants water etc. Tank will be setup dry on 28th Sept and then the fun begins.
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If you intend to plants the tank, you may not need to cycle it.
Plants use ammonia as fertiliser, they take it up faster than the 'filter' bacteria, and they don't turn it into nitrite or nitrate. If there are plenty of plants that are growing well - and I mean showing signs of growth rather than just hanging on - it is safe to add fish in batches. After each batch, monitor ammonia and nitrite every day. If they stay at zero, the plants are using all the ammonia, so once you are certain (4 or 5 days), get the next batch and keep a check on the levels every day. If at any point you do see ammonia and later nitrite above zero, do water changes to get them down to zero and hold off getting more fish for a few weeks.
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Thanks Sue, that's interesting to know, I'll keep an eye on the initial readings.
Just hunting the internet for large driftwood pieces. Come across Corbo Root, is that similar and ok for aquariums and attaching plants?
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Combo root is similar to driftwood, just more 'rooty' in appearance and is safe and will allow you to attach plants.
Take a look at corydoras and see if you think you might like to keep a bottom dweller such as this, because caribsea ecocomplete is not really suitable for them, they need much softer substrates such as sand to dig around in else their barbell get damaged and easily infected. If they are not one your interested in, then the substrate itself is a decent choice.
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Thanks, going to be avoiding bottom dwellers.
Is the eco complete stuff like sand in that you leave it alone and don’t clean with the syohon or you do as if it were gravel?
Had issues with blue/green algae in small tank due sitting on the stagnant sand.
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You can leave it alone in planted areas though it is sturdy enough to be vacuumed in non planted areas to keep on top of wastes too.
Been there with blue green algae... not easy to get rid of. The dark colour should help avoid this.
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It's not often I meet someone with harder water than myself (17dH german), and you may find this article helpful
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/fwsubwebindex/fwhardness.htm
:wave: having read a thread elsewhere I had looked up my hardness in my area and I'm afraid (though not a competition) I have water hardness of 18dH German. I have not researched what that means to me yet but I thought I'd wade into this thread as I'm new 8)
Edited by Moderator Matt to fix quotation box
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Hardness is the most important parameter when it comes to fish. Marine fish keepers don't have to worry about such things as they alter the water completely, but freshwater fish keepers do need to take it into account.
With hard water, the choice is either to keep hard water fish, or to mix the hard water with 'pure' water (reverse osmosis, distilled etc) to dilute the hardness to levels needed by soft water fish.
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Every day is a school day! I have learnt more about my water and chemistry etc today than I ever have. Water is always been hard and I see it every day in my job in the form of limescale. my stepdad has RO Unit installed for his marine tank, I may have to consider mixing my tap water with RO to find the right mix and hardness when I have my group of fish selected.
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I admit that I chose the fish I wanted, and altered my water with RO, rather than choose fish that are suitable for my hard water. :-[
There are lots of fish suitable for hard water, and I do have some, but sometimes you fall for a fish and just have to have it. ::) ;D
My hard water also comes with high nitrates, so I also have a Pozzani nitrate filter which I use for the tap water.
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With a cube tank, it's not exactly square and the distance between each corner is greater than the length of the tank. The fish have an extra 20% swimming space from back left corner to front right corner but you still use the measurement from front right to front left as tank size fish require?
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Yes it is the side to side measurement that counts. Fish tend not to swim diagonally from corner to corner, but parallel to the front and back.
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My tap water is ultra hard so I mix tap/RO water in a 50/50 ratio. This also has the added benefit of halving the nitrate content of the water. I change water on a daily basis (easier for me) to the equivalent of 50% of the tank volume a week.
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My tap water is ultra hard so I mix tap/RO water in a 50/50 ratio. This also has the added benefit of halving the nitrate content of the water. I change water on a daily basis (easier for me) to the equivalent of 50% of the tank volume a week.
This reminded me of the calculator Colin B posted a whole back... just posting for interest purposes as I know you're having success with your current water change regime :) the numbers are surprising though!
https://forums.thinkfish.co.uk/fishtank-filtration-and-cycling/water-change-calculator/msg7466/#msg7466 (https://forums.thinkfish.co.uk/fishtank-filtration-and-cycling/water-change-calculator/msg7466/#msg7466)
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Thanks all, getting there.
Decided on the Fluval 307 filter, read up on the JBL and Oase BioMaster and many reviews were talking about removing the media and using their own as it wasn't that great. Not idea when you're spending that sort of money that you then need to change all the insides.
Will keep the heater separate for now so will be hidden in the tank, will need to work out location.
Do plants from Tropica come treated for snails so I can add straight to the tank?
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Do plants from Tropica come treated for snails so I can add straight to the tank?
I think few, if any, plants come treated for snails these days. What I have found, though, is that a 20-minute dip in aquarium salts*, followed by very thorough rinsing afterwards (esp if you have any ornamental snails), tends to vastly reduce the likelihood of any snails appearing in due course.
[*take sufficient aquarium water from the tank to cover the plants in a container, even if they're just lying on their sides in it, then add aquarium salts to the container]
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It's imported plants from outside the EU that have to be treated with snail killer. Tropica is a Danish company so if it grows its own plants, they don't need to be treated. It's sellers on Ebay you have to be careful with.
Several years ago a species of apple snail was found in a river in Spain. So the EU banned the import and spreading of all species of apple snail (and strictly speaking, that means if you owned apple snails before the ban, all the eggs had to be destroyed and it is illegal to sell apple snails bred in your own tank). They were also going to ban all plants from countries where apple snails live, but they relented and changed it to all plants from countries where apple snails live must be treated with snail killer. This is so that no apple snail is accidentally introduced into the EU.
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@Marcus_F I have 2 JBL filters e150x series. I must admit I have never had any problems with the media supplied with the filters. These are pushing 1400 l/h and consume about 20 Watts. I have recently removed a Fluval 306 from my tank. That was also good.
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Regarding snails on plants... unfortunately i do have to recommend either a) undertaking dips to treat for snails if you get your plants from a shop tank there are a few methods such as the one fcmf uses. Regardless of the quality or source of the plants in question, more often than not, shop tanks have acquired snails over time (customers exchanging their spare plants/trimmings for store credit being one source), and/or b) being very careful with the plants you buy. I cannot recommend Tropica enough here. There are a few growers that do tissue culture plants. Tropica's are the easiest to prepare for planting. These pots are a bit more expensive but contain loads of little tiny plantets that have been grown in lab conditions in a nutrient rich liquid so guarenteed to be snail free. Tropica also do blister packed plants available in Pets at Home. These are not technically guarenteed to be snail free but the chances are very strong they will be. They are growing emergent (out of water) in the packs and therefore often more healthy plants that the ones the shops bring in in bulk. They are also not underwater any any point before they reach you so snails have no chance to lay eggs in anything other than the pot, seeing as you will be removing the pot... there is very little chance indeed of introducing snails.
Final note... if you go for tissue culture plants OR a lots of crypt species (regardless of type, as they commonly 'melt' as they adapt to growing in your tank) get some fast growing 'supporting plants' to see you through the first couple of months as these will suck up any excess nutrients and limit the algae common in new set ups.
Hope that helps! (I'm not sponsored by Tropica by the way... just a genuine recommendation here...)
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Thanks, going Tropica route even before you mentioned it. I like their website, design inspiration etc.
Just need to work out how many plants I need. Is it worth going all out at the start as it's easier to plant when tank is empty (or shallow) or what when you have had a chance to see growth and work out bare areas but then knowing you'll need to plant within a full tank with fish.
I guess it could look fairly crap on day 1 with tiny little buds of plants and not looking like the fully grown tanks you see on Pinterest :)
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I plant a tank with the maximum number of plants at startup. It’s easier that way and the plants are beneficial in cycling the tank. Tropica have some brilliant planting ideas on their web site. It’s worth having a look at those for inspiration. They also give you an idea of a plants requirements, if they require CO2 etc.
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I'm deciding now whether it would be best to make the wooden root with plants central to the tank as in same distance from (https://www.distantias.com/distance-to.php) all four sides, or central only width ways and push it all to the background. Would not be a lot of difference, the root is around 30cm deep and the tank is 50cm deep.
Thinking though that planting positions might be easier to work out if the subject matter was towards the back. Could be beyond my amateur capabilities to try make the perfect central feature.
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You are deciding on an 'island' type layour here which can look very effective. The choice of how far back to place it would depend on what you want the back of the tank to look like... if you want lots of green in the background in the form of stem plants of vallis then you would need to leave space to do so. I personally would recommend leaving a few cms for plants at the back but would say you don't need much. Aquascapers go for miles to get the look of depth in a tank (front to back depth) so the further back the root goes the better really, just leave a little gap enough for some planting. If you don't plant it, think of it as a gap for the algae cleaner to fit in...
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Thanks, will leave a little gap but for plants (have a load on order) and look to move root back so it's not dead central.