Siamese Flying Fox - Advice

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Offline AdamMcneil

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Siamese flying fox - advice
« on: January 20, 2018, 10:19:31 PM »
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Hi guys,

Has anyone ever kept a Siamese flying fox in a tank smaller than the recommended minimum (90cm)?

Our tank is 60lr and just short of 60cm long, 30cm wide.

Was told by an aquarium specialist that it would be fine in our tank and as far as we could tell it was happy enough. Lots of room to swim and places to hide.

Recently had issues with the tank have now started from scratch again, (currently doing fishless cycle).

That was my favourite fish so would like to get another one, but wondered if anyone else has ever had one in a smaller tank and if so was it ok?

If not can anyone recommend a similar fish suitable for the above tank size?

Thanks!

Offline Hampalong

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Re: Siamese flying fox - advice
« Reply #1 on: January 20, 2018, 11:04:31 PM »
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Do you mean Flying Fox or Siamese Algae Eater?

FF grow to 6" and are territorial so I wouldn't keep one in less than 4' and very minimum 18" wide.

SAEs also grow to 6" but need to be in a group, so 4'x2' minimum.

Offline fcmf

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Re: Siamese flying fox - advice
« Reply #2 on: January 20, 2018, 11:08:45 PM »
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Hampalong's advice is consistent with the much larger tank size requirements of these fish recommended on seriouslyfish.com, so you'd definitely need to consider alternative options.

Would otocinclus interest you at all?

Fish Community Creator Tanks
X-ray Tetra (5) - Harlequin Rasbora (6) - Cardinal Tetra (3) - Sparkling Gourami (2) - Ram / Butterfly Cichlid (2) - Cherry Barb (3) - Blue Tetra (1) - Ember Tetra (1) - Golden Pencilfish (2) - Glowlight Tetra (1) - Agassiz's Dwarf Cichlid (2) - Galaxy Rasbora (1) - Lampeye Panchax (1) -
Note: The user may not necessarily own these fish, these are tanks that they may be building or researching for stocking purposes


Offline Matt

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Re: Siamese flying fox - advice
« Reply #3 on: January 21, 2018, 05:24:55 AM »
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Or goby (stiphodon demonic for example or there is a black line goby too) are very characterful fish. Molly world eat some algae I've heard, I don't know how proficient they are...

Or are you just after looks and not algae-eating ability?  In which case i would try penguin or emperor tetra. Again they need to be in shoals.

Fish Community Creator Tanks
Ram / Butterfly Cichlid (2) - Cardinal Tetra (6) - Harlequin Rasbora (6) - Rummy Nose Tetra (6) - Panda Cory (5) - Chain Loach (4) - Honey Gourami (2) - Agassiz's Dwarf Cichlid (2) - Sparkling Gourami (6) - Coolie Loach (2) - Otocinclus (2) -
Note: The user may not necessarily own these fish, these are tanks that they may be building or researching for stocking purposes


Offline Sue

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Re: Siamese flying fox - advice
« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2018, 09:30:39 AM »
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Was told by an aquarium specialist that it would be fine in our tank

Never, ever believe anything a shop says. There are some good ones but they are few and far between. The rest don't know or don't care and will say any rubbish to make a sale.

60 litres is small to a fish - I've had a 60 litre and a 50 litre with the same footprint to I know what they look like. The fish suitable for this tank size tend to be small shoaling fish that grow no bigger than 3 cm. There are few small fish that can be kept as a single specimen, let alone one that looks like a flying fox/siamese algae eater, I'm afraid. The similar looking otocinclus need to be kept as shoal and a 60 litre tank would struggle to provide enough algae for a whole shoal.
I have looked at your other posts and see you have a hardness of 2.275 deg Clark, which converts to 1.8 dH and 32.5 ppm. So you need soft water fish so mollies are not suitable. And penguin & emperor tetras are too big (sorry Matt  :) )



If you want a FF/SAE just to eat algae, shrimps would be the better choice in a tank this size. Your water is a bit on the soft side for snails as their shells would erode.



Fish Community Creator Tanks
Siamese Fighting Fish (male) (1) - Snails (1) - Slender Harlequin (15) - Peacock Goby (4) - Otocinclus (5) - Pygmy Cory (3) - Axelrods Rasbora (5) - Japonica Shrimp (80) - Snails (5) - Neon Tetra (18) - Honey Gourami (1) -
Note: The user may not necessarily own these fish, these are tanks that they may be building or researching for stocking purposes


Offline AdamMcneil

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Re: Siamese flying fox - advice
« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2018, 11:31:26 AM »
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Hi guys, thanks for the informative replies.

We have decided to heed the advice here, especially yours sue about not listening to our lfs for advice.

We have used the tank tool on here, would you think this community would be ok?

(We are currently fishless cycling with pure ammonia so will not buy a thing until we get it right this time)

The tank details we use on here is: length 60cm, volume 60ltr, internal filter.

1 x Siamese fighting fish (male)
4 x Salt and pepper catfish
6 x neon tetra (or another tetra family)
4 x galaxy rasbora
3 x otocinclus or shrimp

I know you advised no oto but the fish tool says the above would make us 80% stocked with the oto or 65% with the shrimp. It tells us though that the beta may attack the shrimp.

Thanks for reading again, I know you must have had a million of these posts in the past but we want to get it right this time after using lfs advice last time and failing our fish.

Regards,
Adam


Offline Matt

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Re: Siamese flying fox - advice
« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2018, 12:02:14 PM »
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A Betta likely won't get on with anything else you have planned unfortunately... I would also advise having more galaxy rasbora... these small fish will need numbers on their side to feel safe. I need to dash so i will let others get into more detail...

Fish Community Creator Tanks
Ram / Butterfly Cichlid (2) - Cardinal Tetra (6) - Harlequin Rasbora (6) - Rummy Nose Tetra (6) - Panda Cory (5) - Chain Loach (4) - Honey Gourami (2) - Agassiz's Dwarf Cichlid (2) - Sparkling Gourami (6) - Coolie Loach (2) - Otocinclus (2) -
Note: The user may not necessarily own these fish, these are tanks that they may be building or researching for stocking purposes


Offline Littlefish

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Re: Siamese flying fox - advice
« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2018, 12:04:56 PM »
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I would suggest larger numbers of less species, which probably isn't what you want to hear.
Larger numbers of shoaling fish will give the gang more confidence, etc.
Perhaps skip the otos, go for either tetra or rasbora, and increase the numbers of whichever you choose, plus increase the numbers of bottom dweller.
I'll also say that if you go for shrimp, them amano shrimp are quite hardy, and large enough to look after themselves.

Offline fcmf

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Re: Siamese flying fox - advice
« Reply #8 on: January 21, 2018, 12:17:22 PM »
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My tank has almost the same footprint as yours (mine's 60x30, 54 litres) and I have very soft water - a bit softer than yours. I currently have 2 shoals in it - 1 of harlequin rasboras and 1 of x-ray tetras (there were 6 of each but one had a fatality). I certainly wouldn't advise fish any larger than these in this type of tank - it's clear from their activity / swimming behaviour that they could do with more swimming space. In future, I think I'd stock smaller shoaling fish in larger numbers eg a shoal of 12 ember tetra.

I agree with Matt that a betta / Siamese fighting fish is not suitable. I also agree with everything Littlefish suggests, so much of what I'm saying elaborates on that.

Looking at your proposed list of fish against the various fishes' requirements, unfortunately the galaxy rasbora / celestial pearl danio require harder water than yours http://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/celestichthys-margaritatus/ but there are some other micro sized alternatives which may be possible such as the aforementioned ember tetra, http://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/microdevario-kubotai/ and http://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/boraras-brigittae/  A shoal of these, in the minimum numbers required, will get you very close to having the tank fully stocked although you might be able to manage a shoal of the tiny corydoras catfish such as http://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/corydoras-pygmaeus/ (or hastatus or habrosus cories) plus a few shrimp.

Hope that's helpful. I know that feeling of hoping that the tank will be able to stock a whole range of species and getting excited at the prospects, only to discover that, in reality, once fish are kept in line with their requirements (eg minimum shoal sizes), that it's necessary to take stock (excuse the pun) and review the situation, possibly quite disappointed. I think that's the reason so many folk aspire to larger or multiple tanks to accommodate more of what they'd like. For example, if you had the space for an extra tank, then you could have the betta / Siamese fighting fish in that.

Fish Community Creator Tanks
X-ray Tetra (5) - Harlequin Rasbora (6) - Cardinal Tetra (3) - Sparkling Gourami (2) - Ram / Butterfly Cichlid (2) - Cherry Barb (3) - Blue Tetra (1) - Ember Tetra (1) - Golden Pencilfish (2) - Glowlight Tetra (1) - Agassiz's Dwarf Cichlid (2) - Galaxy Rasbora (1) - Lampeye Panchax (1) -
Note: The user may not necessarily own these fish, these are tanks that they may be building or researching for stocking purposes


Offline Sue

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Re: Siamese flying fox - advice
« Reply #9 on: January 21, 2018, 12:37:35 PM »
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fcmf replied as I was typing but I'll leave what I had typed even though it repeats a lot of what she said  :)


As the others have said, very small fish like salt & pepper cores and celestial pearl danios (aka galaxy rasboras) need a lot more than the usual 6 for shoaling fish. I would say 10 is the minimum number for these fish.

There is also the problem that celestial pearl danios need water that is harder than yours. Your hardness is 32.5 ppm and they need 90 to 268 ppm. But there are other small fish that would love your water such as ember tetras and Microdevario kubotai (sold as neon green rasboras or green tetras). And with your hardness, any of the tiny fish in the genus Boraras would be fine.

You might have trouble finding salt & pepper cories, Corydoras habrosus. Not many shops stock them. If you can't find any, pygmy cories would work just as well, again at least 10 of them. (Make sure you don't buy peppered cories, Corydoras paleatus,  as they grow too big)



I agree with Matt. Bettas are not community fish, and not with fish like tetras that have the potential to nip their fins.


Some suggestions for you. I know this makes the community creator over 100% but with small fish like this not having enough of them makes them stressed, and stressed fish have a bigger bioload then non-stressed fish. So with small shoaling fish you can push the stocking level.

Option 1
10 x salt & pepper or pygmy cories
8 x neon tetras - or 10 x green neon tetras if you can find any
10 ember tetras or one of the Boraras species.
Shrimps to eat algae

Option 2
10 x salt & pepper/pygmy cories
8 neon tetras or 10 ember tetras or 10 Boraras
Pair honey gouramis (instead of a betta)
shrimps to eat algae

Green neon tetras are slightly smaller than neons, and despite their name they have a blue stripe which has a greenish tint when looked at from above.
Honey gouramis are fine as a male/female pair. Natural coloured honeys (the colour in the photos in the profiles on here) and the yellow variety are easy to sex; the red coloured honeys are more difficult, and you don't want to end up with 2 males.

Fish Community Creator Tanks
Siamese Fighting Fish (male) (1) - Snails (1) - Slender Harlequin (15) - Peacock Goby (4) - Otocinclus (5) - Pygmy Cory (3) - Axelrods Rasbora (5) - Japonica Shrimp (80) - Snails (5) - Neon Tetra (18) - Honey Gourami (1) -
Note: The user may not necessarily own these fish, these are tanks that they may be building or researching for stocking purposes


Offline Littlefish

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Re: Siamese flying fox - advice
« Reply #10 on: January 21, 2018, 04:01:57 PM »
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If your preference is for a betta, you could mix him with cories and otos.
Admittedly you can't guarantee the temperament of fish, especially bettas, but mine if fairly relaxed about life in general, and shares his tank with a shoal of panda cories and some otos. There is also a random small shrimp in there that was in the bag when I bought some assassin snails (also in the betta tank).

Offline AdamMcneil

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Re: Siamese flying fox - advice
« Reply #11 on: January 22, 2018, 10:50:47 AM »
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Hi guys, thanks again for your replies. Itís much appreciated.

Sue we really like option 1 you posted so we are going to go for that. After we have cycled the tank would you add them in bit by bit or plonk them all in together, I would hate to surge the ammonia and upset the tank again. If adding them bit by bit would you recommend any order?

Weíre currently on day 3 of a brand new tank essentially, we put 1.5ml of 30% ammonia in on day 1, using an online calculator for measurements. The ammonia on day 1 and 2 was off the scale (8+) I havenít had chance to check it today yet as Iím at work. Temperature is at 80 bang on, we would go higher but we have a few plants in the tank attached to wood which I donít want to kill. Shamefully I canít say which plants they are, one is java fern.

Thanks again guys.

Adam

Offline Sue

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Re: Siamese flying fox - advice
« Reply #12 on: January 22, 2018, 01:48:16 PM »
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If the ammonia is off the top of the scale you need to change some water to get it down to 3 ppm. The higher the ammonia level the more nitrite it makes and too much nitrite will stall the cycle. Change about 3/4 of the water, let the tank run for 30 mins to let it all mix together then test for ammonia. If it is still above 3 ppm, do another water change until it gets to 3 ppm.
Then follow these instructions https://forums.thinkfish.co.uk/fishtank-filtration-and-cycling/fishless-cycling-how-to-do-it/

Nitrite stalls the cycle at 16 ppm. We can't measure nitrite above 5 so we need to make sure we stop nitrite getting that high by controlling the amount of ammonia we add. 1 ppm ammonia is turned into 2.7 ppm nitrite, so if you added 8 ppm ammonia once that is turned into so much nitrite that just this one dose of ammonia would stall the cycle.
The method in the link was devised by a chap on another forum and if followed to the letter can never make enough nitrite to stall the cycle.

Ammonia levels at even 3 ppm can kill plants. I suggest that you either put the java fern in a bucket of water during cycling or use just 1 ppm ammonia to cycle with and add fish slowly at the end of the cycle.


If you do cycle with 3 ppm ammonia, once the cycle is finished and you've done your big water change to get rid of all the nitrate the cycle makes, you can get the ember tetras and cories. Leave the neons till later because they need a tank that has grown a lot of other micro-organisms. wait at least three months before getting them or they could die on you.

Fish Community Creator Tanks
Siamese Fighting Fish (male) (1) - Snails (1) - Slender Harlequin (15) - Peacock Goby (4) - Otocinclus (5) - Pygmy Cory (3) - Axelrods Rasbora (5) - Japonica Shrimp (80) - Snails (5) - Neon Tetra (18) - Honey Gourami (1) -
Note: The user may not necessarily own these fish, these are tanks that they may be building or researching for stocking purposes


Offline AdamMcneil

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Re: Siamese flying fox - advice
« Reply #13 on: January 22, 2018, 04:25:47 PM »
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Iím shocked that the lfs sold us the plants and said itís fine when cycling, terrible advice. Also telling us to use 1.5ml of ammonia to get it off the scale.

Really appreciate your help Sue, Iíll get the log/plants out as soon as I get home. Hope the damage is minimal being in their for 2 days!

Offline Sue

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Re: Siamese flying fox - advice
« Reply #14 on: January 22, 2018, 04:34:07 PM »
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Their advice to you doesn't surprise me at all since very few LFS workers know anything about fishless cycling. Their most common advice is to tell you that fishless cycling is very old fashioned and buy this miracle product instead.

We are dealing with bacteria species that work best at low levels of ammonia and nitrite. High ammonia encourages the wrong species of ammonia eaters - once the ammonia level is minimal they die leaving you with no ammonia eating bacteria; and high levels of nitrite inhibit the nitrite eaters. Once the tank is cycled and you have fish there should be no detectable level of ammonia or nitrite as the bacteria eat them as soon as they appear. This is they level they work best at.

Fish Community Creator Tanks
Siamese Fighting Fish (male) (1) - Snails (1) - Slender Harlequin (15) - Peacock Goby (4) - Otocinclus (5) - Pygmy Cory (3) - Axelrods Rasbora (5) - Japonica Shrimp (80) - Snails (5) - Neon Tetra (18) - Honey Gourami (1) -
Note: The user may not necessarily own these fish, these are tanks that they may be building or researching for stocking purposes


Offline kuukelite

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Re: Siamese flying fox - advice
« Reply #15 on: February 02, 2018, 08:20:07 PM »
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Hi Sue,

We are a good way into the tank cycle now and nearing the end, thanks for that advice.

We have been searching around all our LFS and we cannot for the life us find any of the fish apart from the Neon Tetras.

Plenty of Cory Catfish but non of the above.

We found these that we liked if they fit our environment?

Elegans Cory
Sterbai Cory
Green Tiger Barb
Golden Pencil Fish


Offline Sue

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Re: Siamese flying fox - advice
« Reply #16 on: February 02, 2018, 08:37:12 PM »
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Silly question - are you AdamMcneil with a new user name? I ask to make sure it is the still the same 60 litre, 60 cm long tank.


Tiger barbs - no. They need a bigger tank and they are so nippy it is very hard to find suitable tank mates. The same goes for standard tiger barbs (orange with black stripes) and albino tiger barbs (pale orange, white stripes) - all the same species. They'd probably shred neon tetras in no time.

Golden pencifish (aka beckford's pencilfish) need a big shoal to keep the aggression of the males confined to the shoal, and 10+ is too many for a 60 litre tank.

Seriously Fish reckons sterabi cories are OK but these are big fish reaching 6.5 cm - and C elagans is not much smaller at 5.5 cm. Personally I'd rather see them with more floor space.




Do you have a Maidenhead Aquatics anywhere near you? They can order in any fish on "their list".



Fish Community Creator Tanks
Siamese Fighting Fish (male) (1) - Snails (1) - Slender Harlequin (15) - Peacock Goby (4) - Otocinclus (5) - Pygmy Cory (3) - Axelrods Rasbora (5) - Japonica Shrimp (80) - Snails (5) - Neon Tetra (18) - Honey Gourami (1) -
Note: The user may not necessarily own these fish, these are tanks that they may be building or researching for stocking purposes


Offline kuukelite

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Re: Siamese flying fox - advice
« Reply #17 on: February 03, 2018, 09:38:34 AM »
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Hi Sue,

Yes it the same guy, sorry not sure how I managed two logins!!  :vcross:

They are close indeed, a few around us but never heard of them!

We will give them a go with the original idea :)

Thanks again!

Offline kuukelite

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Re: Siamese flying fox - advice
« Reply #18 on: February 10, 2018, 07:07:47 PM »
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Hi Sue,

Sorry to peck your head.

Were literally now at the final stages of the tank cycle, just started stage 11.

We found a shop that stocks all the fish and will soon be ready to stock:

10 x pygmy cories
10 x ember tetras
2 x honey gouramis
Maybe some shrimp

If you remember at the start of this post we spoke about the plants we bought on the bogwood. You advised to take out the tank and put in a bucket of water which we did.

A few days ago we was having fly problems so I put the wood/plants into the main tank. Since then we have had a snail outbreak, were probably talking around 40 or so little pale brown/almost see through snails, their shells seem to be flat?

The tank is currently still at 80 Degree Fahrenheit and plenty of algae now as were 20 days into the cycle.

Is there anything you can recommend to stomp them out, I don't mind killing the lot as they are not welcome, just don't want to mess the cycle up!

Thanks again,
Adam

Offline Sue

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Re: Siamese flying fox - advice
« Reply #19 on: February 10, 2018, 07:18:42 PM »
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Anything you add to kill the snails will leave chemicals in the water which won't be good for your future fish. One thing you could try needs a jar with a screw top lid and some veggies eg lettuce. The idea is that you stab holes in the jar lid from the outside so that the jagged bits of metal stick into the jar. Then add the lettuce, screw the lid back on and place it all in the tank just before you turn the room lights off for the night. The theory is that the snails will go looking for the lettuce (or whatever you use) and crawl in through the holes, but the jagged bits of metal will stop them getting back out. In the morning, just remove the jar complete with lettuce and snails, dispose of the contents and repeat again next night.


The snails in question are a species of ramshorn snail. Snails are actually a good part of the ecosystem of a tank so totally eradicating them is not good for the tank. Overpopulation is not good either. You need to aim somewhere between. Snails will feed of bits of dead plants and uneaten fish food. They probably fed on bits of your plant while it was out of the tank. Once you have their population stabilised at a lower number than now, you can keep them under control by not over feeding the fish and by removing any dead plants leaves when you see them.
I know you would rather get rid of every last one, but they do play an important role in an aquarium. My main tank has the same ramshorn snails and physid snails that came on plants, and malaysian trumpet snails and nerite snails that I bought.

Fish Community Creator Tanks
Siamese Fighting Fish (male) (1) - Snails (1) - Slender Harlequin (15) - Peacock Goby (4) - Otocinclus (5) - Pygmy Cory (3) - Axelrods Rasbora (5) - Japonica Shrimp (80) - Snails (5) - Neon Tetra (18) - Honey Gourami (1) -
Note: The user may not necessarily own these fish, these are tanks that they may be building or researching for stocking purposes


Offline kuukelite

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Re: Siamese flying fox - advice
« Reply #20 on: February 11, 2018, 06:33:23 PM »
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Hi Sue,

Thanks again for your advice, I have tried using some Tupperware with lettuce and holes as suggested (had no jars at the time!). Hopefully it should trim the numbers :)

Quick update on the tank too, today its officially cycled (on day 21)!

Thanks again for your help with everything!

Offline Matt

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Re: Siamese flying fox - advice
« Reply #21 on: February 12, 2018, 06:09:37 AM »
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Congratulations  :cheers:

Fish Community Creator Tanks
Ram / Butterfly Cichlid (2) - Cardinal Tetra (6) - Harlequin Rasbora (6) - Rummy Nose Tetra (6) - Panda Cory (5) - Chain Loach (4) - Honey Gourami (2) - Agassiz's Dwarf Cichlid (2) - Sparkling Gourami (6) - Coolie Loach (2) - Otocinclus (2) -
Note: The user may not necessarily own these fish, these are tanks that they may be building or researching for stocking purposes


Offline Littlefish

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Re: Siamese flying fox - advice
« Reply #22 on: February 12, 2018, 09:30:55 AM »
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Congratulations on completing the cycle.  :cheers:

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