Author Topic: Newbie with biOrb 60L & black widow tetras (Read 11982 times) 37 replies

Digs1923 · « **on:** May 27, 2014, 12:06:27 AM »

Hi everyone, I'm very new to fishkeeping and have made so many stupid mistakes, it's embarrassing

First mistake was to get a biOrb - it looks great, but as I've discovered from reading this (and other) forums it's very limited and not the best environment for the fish. Second mistake was to impulse buy three Black Widow tetras which have been in the tank since day one. The biOrb was actually a birthday present for hubby (who's wanted fish for years) but he's just started a new job with long hours and it looks like I've taken over the upkeep (and I'm loving it!).

As I'm slightly OCD when it comes to trawling the internet for advice and information, this will probably be better for the fish in the long run - my other half thinks you can just fill the tank with water, chuck in lots of BIG fish and leave 'em to it. In fact the Black Widows were his idea and it's only since reading up I've realised that most of the fish on our original wish-list are not compatible with these little devils. Having said that, I've got quite attached to them and wouldn't like to just take them back to the LFS. I also would hate for anything to happen to them so have read so much on fish-in cycling that I've tied myself in knots! I've got the API Master testing kit and have been regularly testing and doing partial water changes.

After two weeks (I know, I know - no time at all) I panicked and decided the bacteria liquid (supplied with the biOrb) wasn't working, so yesterday I added two live plants (til then only had artificial ones) and a bottle of Tetra Safe Start. Readings today are: Amm 0.5 Ni 0 Na 0 pH 6.4 (when I first started testing, the pH was 7.2). The bottle of TSS said to not change the water but have been advised on another forum that this is rubbish and I MUST do water changes when Amm is 0.25 and above.

I've just spent ages reading through relevant threads on this forum, and I now feel sooo much more confident. The way the advice is offered is so helpful and friendly that it doesn't make you feel like a complete dork. And Sue's article on cycling with fish is so easy to understand and follow that the penny has finally dropped with me

. I will continue to do regular water changes every time the readings are above 0.25 and understand that this will take several weeks. Despite pleas from hubby, we won't be adding any more fish for quite some time. I'm hooked and although have only had the tank two weeks, am already thinking about a bigger one!!

So just to say a big thank you from a new convert to the wonderful world of fish

I'm sure I'll be back with more questions.... you have been warned, lol.

Liz

SteveS · « **Reply #1 on:** May 27, 2014, 01:35:54 AM »

Hi Liz, welcome to the mad-house!

After a few stumbles early-doors, you seem to be heading in the right general direction. The only thing I would point out is that your pH and its large fall is of some concern. Can you find out how hard your water is. Your cycle will stall if the pH falls below 6.5. If you have soft water, this is a distinct possibility. If you don't know the hardness of your water, you can get your local fish shop to measure it for you, or the information should be on the web-site of your water suppliers.

If you do have soft-water, you will need to be extra-careful with your water changes; Or you will need to add something to your water to harden it up a bit. Ask on here and we will give you the options if necessary.

chris213 · « **Reply #2 on:** May 27, 2014, 07:30:26 AM »

hi liz and welcome to the the forum , we have a name for wanting more bigger and bigger and bigger tanks we call it MTS (multiple tank syndrome ) and its highly contagious .

ColinB · « **Reply #3 on:** May 27, 2014, 08:53:53 AM »

Hi Liz, and welcome to the forum.

All the good advice has already been given..... so I'll be the first to ask for photos. We're very shallow on here and love piccies.

Sue · « **Reply #4 on:** May 27, 2014, 10:49:05 AM »

As Steve says, at low pH the bacteria stop multiplying. Usually a low KH is to blame. That's carbonate hardness, and carbonate buffers the water against pH changes. But this usually affects fishless cycles; with fish-in cycles, the frequent water changes replenish the KH.
Can I suggest you take a sample of tap water to a fish shop and ask them to test the KH. Get them to write down the answer.

When you got the pH of 7.2, was that freshly drawn water? If it was, can I suggest letting a glass of water stand for 24 hours and test again. The pH often changes on standing, and it's the 'stood' pH you need to know.

The good news is that at pH 6.5, any ammonia will be in the less toxic form ammonium. That's the problem for cycling as the bacteria only use the ammonia form. Even an ammonia of 2.0 is safe at pH 6.5. The bad news is that nitrite is more toxic at low pH.

Once we know your KH we can see if that's causing the low pH or if we need to look for some other cause.

Digs1923 · « **Reply #5 on:** May 27, 2014, 12:04:28 PM »

Thanks Chris, Colin and Sue for your quick responses.
My tests this morning showed: Amm 0.50 and pH 6.0!!! Did a 40%ish water change, waited an hour and then tested again. Amm now 0.25 and pH is 6.8.

I won't be able to get to LFS until weekend (the one we prefer is about 40mins away and I have no car til then) but there's a Pets at Home locally. Would they be able to test my water for KH? I've been on United Utilities website and know our water is very soft but I'm not sure which bit of the info is for KH. I've copied and pasted below the summary report. Can you tell from that or do I need the detailed report?

Analysis   Typical Value   UK/EU limit   Units
Hardness Level   Very Soft
Hardness Clarke   2.450      Clarke
Aluminium   <3.97   200   µg Al/l
Calcium   9.43      mg Ca/l
Residual chlorine - Total   0.53      mg/l
Residual chlorine - Free   0.49      mg/l
Coliform bacteria   0   0   number/100ml
Colour   <0.901   20   mg/l Pt/Co scale
Conductivity   126   2500   uS/cm at 20oC
Copper   0.0059   2   mg Cu/l
E.coli   0   0   number/100ml
Iron   <5.64   200   µg Fe/l
Lead   <0.210   10   µg Pb/l
Magnesium   2.60      mg Mg/l
Manganese   <0.386   50   µg Mn/l
Nitrate   2.12   50   mg NO3/l
Sodium   14.1   200   mg Na/l

Sue, the 7.2 was after a water change and I don't think I waited that long before testing. I now know that I need to wait at least an hour after doing a water change to re-test (I think?). So far I haven't been doing daily water changes - should I be doing so and how much water should I change. The 40% I did this morning is the most I've done at one time. If I do it every day, how much should I change. I was relieved to see the pH had gone back up after the change.

I will let a glass of water stand overnight and test that for pH as you suggest.

If it's not the KH causing the pH, what else could it be?

Thanks for your advice so far

Liz

Digs1923 · « **Reply #6 on:** May 27, 2014, 12:05:55 PM »

Oops - sorry Steve - thanks for your advice too!

Liz

ColinB · « **Reply #7 on:** May 27, 2014, 12:31:37 PM »

1º Clark = 0.8ºGH = 14.25ppm

So your 2.45º Clark is 2º of GH (or 35ppm) which is very soft indeed. You may want to consider hardening this up a bit with a substrate of some sort. I'm at the other end of the scale (living in the South East) and I soften my water with rain water. I would also assume (dangerous I know) that your KH is well down, also. There's nothing in those figures to tell what your KH is.

As I've never done any water hardening I will leave it to those that have - otherwise I'll probably be talking rubbish (again

).

p.s. Black Widow Tetras are OK in your water.

As you're probably always going to have to keep an eye on your KH and GH, it's probably better to get your own kit. This is what I have:

Digs1923 · « **Reply #8 on:** May 27, 2014, 01:46:22 PM »

Thanks Colin - I THINK I understand, lol. I'll definitely get one of those Nutrafin tests as soon as I can. Feel I'm burning into the Nutty Professor with all this chemistry and maths

They were definitely my worst subjects at school (a million years ago

) but I'm getting quite adept at fiddling with the little test tubes, bottles and colour charts. Such a lot to learn.... Oh, and I'll put up a piccy (as soon as I can work out how....)

Liz

Sue · « **Reply #9 on:** May 27, 2014, 02:01:01 PM »

Unfortunately, water companies rarely give KH on their websites, and they call it alkalinity when they do. Mine used to but doesn't any more.

If your KH does turn out to be very low (and Pets at Home should be able to test for it), that's what's causing the problems.
There are things you can do. Water changes may not help as it's dropping low with just 3 fish. But initially, water changes should be fine as once you get nitrite showing up you will need to do water changes to keep that low as it's more toxic at low pH.

You can use something made from calcium carbonate in the tank. That's things like crushed coral, pieces of coral, limestone rocks. The usual recommendation is to add crushed coral to the filter but with a biorb that's not going to work as there's nowhere to put it. Maybe a chunk or coral or some limestone decor. But that only dissolves very slowly, and you need to do small frequent water changes as doing a bigger weekly one would allow the water chemistry to alter between water changes and the new water would be different.

The other alternative is to use remineralisation salts, the ones added to RO water. There are two I know of, Kent RO Right and Tropic Marin remineralisation salts (be careful with the last one as there's a marine version too). You would need to get a GH and KH tester (API make them as well as Nutrafin) and first of all get the tank to a suitable GH and KH, then adjust the new water to the same at every water change. It would mean testing at every water change for a while, but you'd soon get to know exactly how much you need to add.

Digs1923 · « **Reply #10 on:** May 27, 2014, 04:43:19 PM »

Well I now feel as I'm drowning (haha,no pun intended) in scientific mumbo-jumbo and starting to feel a little desperate.... Why oh why did I choose a biOrb

But I've spent the whole afternoon reading all I can find on pH, KH and GH and put it together with your advice! My head's spinning but I've just ordered online the Nutrafin test kit (almost paid £30 for it on Amazon but realised - just in time - that it was a multi-pack) and the Tropic Marin Remineralisation salts. As I said earlier, I won't be able to get to my preferred LFS until weekend and anyway their website only showed the Tropic Marin for marine, so until my order arrives I will continue to do small frequent water changes and hope my bacteria have not given up! IF the cycling HAS stalled (how do I know that) and also what do I have to do to start it again.... So many questions, lol.

I've also tried to attach a pic of our set-up (let's see if THAT works) If you look carefully at the bottom centre, you can just see one of the Black Widows

Bye (for now)...

Liz

Digs1923 · « **Reply #11 on:** May 27, 2014, 04:44:26 PM »

Yay - it worked!

Liz

Sue · « **Reply #12 on:** May 27, 2014, 05:05:14 PM »

If the cycle has stalled, it's just a case of increasing the pH and KH (which the remineralisation salts will do) and wait for the bacteria to start multiplying again.

When you get the salts and the test kits, measure both KH and GH of the tank water - GH measures the amount of calcium and magnesium in the water and is what fish profiles mean when they say this fish likes soft water and that fish likes hard water.
Concentrate on KH for now. Add enough of the salts to get a KH of around 6deg/110ppm. Add it bit by bit with a few hours between each addition as you'll also be adding calcium and magnesium, and adding those too fast is not good for the fish. When you have the KH where you want it, test the GH too.
When you do a water change, add the salts to each bucket of water and test KH and GH before adding it to the tank. You want them to be the same as the tank water. You'll soon get to know exactly how much to add to get the bucket of water to the right GH and KH.

The main thing is not to change the tank water too quickly. Slow and steady is the way to go. And make sure you have a new pack of the salts before you run out of the old one.

ColinB · « **Reply #13 on:** May 27, 2014, 06:02:26 PM »

With the Nutrafin KH/GH the instructions are in very small print and different for each test. So if you'll excuse me pointing them out (as you have declared yourself to be 'not-a-chemist-or-mathematician') then I'll summarise:

GH test: Number of Drops × 20 = General Hardness in ppm. GH ppm ÷ 19.7 = GH in degrees.

KH test: Number of Drops × 10 = Carbonate Hardness in ppm. KH ppm ÷ 19.7 = KH in degrees.

Digs1923 · « **Reply #14 on:** May 27, 2014, 06:45:15 PM »

Thank you Colin - I'm sure that will all become clearer to me once the test arrives. Although, I have to say that if that's the "simple" version, I would HATE to see the "complicated" version

Again, everyone's help and advice is much appreciated

Liz

Sue · « **Reply #15 on:** May 27, 2014, 07:05:49 PM »

GH and KH testers work differently from ammonia etc - with them you add x drops, wait y minutes and compare the colour of the liquid to a chart. GH and KH - you add the reagent one drop at a time until the liquid changes colour, and count the drops it takes. Soft water and low KH won't take many drops, hard water takes a lot. If you have very soft water the colour won't be very strong when it changes - fewer drops = pale colour - and the way to see the colour change is to shake, take the lid off the tube, stand it on something white and look down into the tube. Because you'll be looking through a couple of inches rather than half an inch, the colour will be more intense.

Digs1923 · « **Reply #16 on:** May 29, 2014, 11:44:10 AM »

My testing kit and salts have arrived this morning - just after I'd done a water change. Test results this morning (before the WC) were:

Amm 0.5 Ni 0 and pH 6.2ish

I did some KH and GH testing without coming back to this thread to check on what I should be doing, and foolishly tested my tap water instead of the tank water.

My KH test turned pale straw yellow with two drops :-( I wasn't sure if I was supposed to get the yellow colour to more of a match on the card, so added a third drop. This turned the water a bit more yellow. Do I take it the 2nd drop is the correct result (even though it was pale, it was definitely not blue!).

My GH test turned pale blue on the second drop. Again, a third drop made it a bit more intense blue but I'm guessing the result is two drops, i.e. 40 = soft.

I have to go out now, but will test the tank water when I get back this afternoon. I'm probably being very dumb here

but have I understood it correctly that I add the salts directly to the tank? For example, if my tank measures the same as the tap water (2 drops = 20) and the directions say to add one level spoonful per 15 litres, do I need to add four spoonfuls (over a period of time - and is it a couple of hours between each)? And then when I do my water change (daily because my ammonia levels rise to 0.5 over a 24 hr period) I add the salts to the new water before adding to the tank?

I won't do anything until I hear from you (sorry, that's not meant to sound like I'm hassling you!) but I don't want to add the salts to the tank if that's NOT correct. These little fish have a lot to contend with, without me possibly killing them with salt

Thanks again for your time and patience...

Liz

Sue · « **Reply #17 on:** May 29, 2014, 04:21:25 PM »

The GH and KH testers, I have API so I need to make sure the Nutrafin ones work the same.
You mentioned comparing to a chart? With the API ones you don't compare to a chart, you watch the colour change. Are the Nutrafin ones different?
With API, the GH reagent is a deep olive green; it turns orange in the test tube then back to green at the end point. If it never goes orange but stays green, that means GH = zero.
KH is similar, but the reagent is yellow, it goes blue with the first drop then back to yellow at the end point. Again, never turning blue = zero

You say your KH tester went straw yellow at the second drop - was it a different colour at the first? And the same for GH just with a different colour change?
When the levels are low, the colours are never as intense as the instructions would have you believe simply because the reagents are very dilute. With harder water, you need to add more drops so the colours do become more intense.

So assuming you really do have low KH (not that I'm doubting you, I'm just checking before you add anything to the tank):

That one level spoonful per 15 litres, do the instructions say how high that will raise the KH etc? You only need to get the KH to around 6 or 7, you don't need to go very high. The salts will also raise the GH and the pH. With the fish you have, you want to keep the water on the softish side.

The way to add the salts is to remove a bit of tank water and dissolve the salts in that then pour it back into the tank. I would add a much smaller amount that you eventually need and wait several hours between additions. Say in the morning then again in the evening. You need to take it very slowly so the fish can acclimatise to the higher level. When you do a water change, you need to add the amount of salts necessary to get the GH, KH etc to the same in the bucket as in the tank. The easiest way will be to test the tank, then test the bucket before adding it. Once you have the tank at it's final level, it will be easier to treat the new water as it will be the same very time.

Does all that make sense

Digs1923 · « **Reply #18 on:** May 29, 2014, 05:47:31 PM »

Hi Sue, it never occurred to me that the two brands of tests would have different colours. The Nutrafin one (for KH) says add one drop and it should go blue which mine did. You then add another drop and keep adding until the colour turns to yellow/lime. Mine turned to yellow/lime after the second drop. Says to multiply number of drops by 10 so mine = 20. Then says that < 20 mg/L means adjust with an appropriate buffer. 20-80 is normally associated with low ph (good for fish that prefer acidic conditions).

As mine falls within the normal parameters of 20-80 (it's possible for your water to turn yellow/lime with the first drop and mine was blue with the first drop, not turning yellow/lime until the second drop was added) I'm dithering about whether or not I need to buffer. I think, Sue, you said your KH was quite low and you manage it by doing more frequent water changes. I know of two other people locally who keep tropical fish and they don't add remineralisation salts... Am I jumping the gun a bit? Or maybe I just need to buffer until my tank's cycled so it doesn't stall. What if I did water changes twice a day (about 20%) and see if that corrects my pH/KH?

It's not that I don't want to use the remineralisation salts, I'm just a bit reluctant to start doing something that might not really be necessary.

I think I'll test the tank again for pH and test it for KH as well (approx 8 hrs after WC this morning) and see what that's like. By waiting a bit longer, I guess the worst that can happen is the cycle will stall. It won't hurt my fish - will it?

I'll report back shortly....

Liz

Digs1923 · « **Reply #19 on:** May 29, 2014, 06:50:18 PM »

Well strike the second paragraph of my last post! On checking the KH of the tank it never went blue at all so definitely < 20. Also my pH was 6.2(ish). Amm was back up to about 0.4. I'm going to add a level spoonful of the buffer tonight and then wait til tomorrow morning, test and then add another, then wait until the evening and repeat until I've done the four spoonfuls that it says are needed for 60litres.

One problem I can see is that I'll need to do a water change in the morning because by then the amm will be back to 0.5. Or should I do a water change tonight before adding the first spoonful? Obviously if I'm doing water changes before I've added the full dosage, I'll be taking out some of what i've put in but not replacing it (if that makes sense).

So have I got this right:

Do a water change tonight to try to increase the pH and decrease the ammonia and THEN add the first spoonful.
Next morning, test for amm etc. do a water change and then add the second spoonful. Test tank for KH
Evening, test again for amm. etc do a water change and then add the third spoonful. Test tank for KH
Saturday morning repeat above and then add the fourth spoonful. Because I've been doing water changes whilst adding the buffer, it may require more than four spoonfuls. So test and if KH still not between 6 and 7, add another spoon.
Once the tank reads 6-7 KH just add buffer to the water changes.

Think I may be going into panic mode again.... that furry hamster is looking more and more appealing $:-\$

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Newbie With BiOrb 60L & Black Widow Tetras

Newbie With BiOrb 60L & Black Widow Tetras

Author Topic: Newbie with biOrb 60L & black widow tetras (Read 11982 times) 37 replies

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