Newbie With BiOrb 60L & Black Widow Tetras

Hi everyone,  I'm very new to fishkeeping and have made so many stupid mistakes, it's embarrassing 
First mistake was to get a biOrb - it looks great, but as I've discovered from reading this (and other) forums it's very limited and not the best environment for the fish.  Second mistake was to impulse buy three Black Widow tetras which have been in the tank since day one.  The biOrb was actually a birthday present for hubby (who's wanted fish for years) but he's just started a new job with long hours and it looks like I've taken over the upkeep (and I'm loving it!). 

As I'm slightly OCD when it comes to trawling the internet for advice and information, this will probably be better for the fish in the long run - my other half thinks you can just fill the tank with water, chuck in lots of BIG fish and leave 'em to it.  In fact the Black Widows were his idea and it's only since reading up I've realised that most of the fish on our original wish-list are not compatible with these little devils.  Having said that, I've got quite attached to them and wouldn't like to just take them back to the LFS.  I also would hate for anything to happen to them so have read so much on fish-in cycling that I've tied myself in knots!  I've got the API Master testing kit and have been regularly testing and doing partial water changes. 

After two weeks (I know, I know - no time at all) I panicked and decided the bacteria liquid (supplied with the biOrb) wasn't working, so yesterday I added two live plants (til then only had artificial ones) and a bottle of Tetra Safe Start.  Readings today are:  Amm 0.5  Ni 0  Na 0  pH 6.4 (when I first started testing, the pH was 7.2).  The bottle of TSS said to not change the water but have been advised on another forum that this is rubbish and I MUST do water changes when Amm is 0.25 and above.

I've just spent ages reading through relevant threads on this forum, and I now feel sooo much more confident.  The way the advice is offered is so helpful and friendly that it doesn't make you feel like a complete dork.  And Sue's article on cycling with fish is so easy to understand and follow that the penny has finally dropped with me  .  I will continue to do regular water changes every time the readings are above 0.25 and understand that this will take several weeks.  Despite pleas from hubby, we won't be adding any more fish for quite some time.  I'm hooked and although have only had the tank two weeks, am already thinking about a bigger one!!

So just to say a big thank you from a new convert to the wonderful world of fish    I'm sure I'll be back with more questions.... you have been warned, lol.

Liz

hi liz and welcome to the the forum , we have a name for wanting more bigger and bigger and bigger tanks we call it MTS (multiple tank syndrome ) and its highly contagious .   

As Steve says, at low pH the bacteria stop multiplying. Usually a low KH is to blame. That's carbonate hardness, and carbonate buffers the water against pH changes. But this usually affects fishless cycles; with fish-in cycles, the frequent water changes replenish the KH.
Can I suggest you take a sample of tap water to a fish shop and ask them to test the KH. Get them to write down the answer.

When you got the pH of 7.2, was that freshly drawn water? If it was, can I suggest letting a glass of water stand for 24 hours and test again. The pH often changes on standing, and it's the 'stood' pH you need to know.

The good news is that at pH 6.5, any ammonia will be in the less toxic form ammonium. That's the problem for cycling as the bacteria only use the ammonia form. Even an ammonia of 2.0 is safe at pH 6.5. The bad news is that nitrite is more toxic at low pH.



Once we know your KH we can see if that's causing the low pH or if we need to look for some other cause.

Oops - sorry Steve - thanks for your advice too! 

Liz

Thanks Colin - I THINK I understand, lol.  I'll definitely get one of those Nutrafin tests as soon as I can.  Feel I'm burning into the Nutty Professor with all this chemistry and maths    They were definitely my worst subjects at school (a million years ago  ) but I'm getting quite adept at fiddling with the little test tubes, bottles and colour charts.  Such a lot to learn....  Oh, and I'll put up a piccy (as soon as I can work out how....)

Liz

Well I now feel as I'm drowning (haha,no pun intended) in scientific mumbo-jumbo and starting to feel a little desperate.... Why oh why did I choose a biOrb   

But I've spent the whole afternoon reading all I can find on pH, KH and GH and put it together with your advice!  My head's spinning but I've just ordered online the Nutrafin test kit (almost paid £30 for it on Amazon but realised - just in time - that it was a multi-pack) and the Tropic Marin Remineralisation salts.  As I said earlier, I won't be able to get to my preferred LFS until weekend and anyway their website only showed the Tropic Marin for marine, so until my order arrives I will continue to do small frequent water changes and hope my bacteria have not given up!  IF the cycling HAS stalled (how do I know that) and also what do I have to do to start it again....   So many questions, lol.

I've also tried to attach a pic of our set-up (let's see if THAT works)  If you look carefully at the bottom centre, you can just see one of the Black Widows 

Bye (for now)...

Liz

If the cycle has stalled, it's just a case of increasing the pH and KH (which the remineralisation salts will do) and wait for the bacteria to start multiplying again.

When you get the salts and the test kits, measure both KH and GH of the tank water - GH measures the amount of calcium and magnesium in the water and is what fish profiles mean when they say this fish likes soft water and that fish likes hard water.
Concentrate on KH for now. Add enough of the salts to get a KH of around 6deg/110ppm. Add it bit by bit with a few hours between each addition as you'll also be adding calcium and magnesium, and adding those too fast is not good for the fish. When you have the KH where you want it, test the GH too.
When you do a water change, add the salts to each bucket of water and test KH and GH before adding it to the tank. You want them to be the same as the tank water. You'll soon get to know exactly how much to add to get the bucket of water to the right GH and KH.

The main thing is not to change the tank water too quickly. Slow and steady is the way to go. And make sure you have a new pack of the salts before you run out of the old one.

Thank you Colin - I'm sure that will all become clearer to me once the test arrives.  Although, I have to say that if that's the "simple" version, I would HATE to see the "complicated" version   

Again, everyone's help and advice is much appreciated 

Liz

My testing kit and salts have arrived this morning - just after I'd done a water change.  Test results this morning (before the WC) were:

Amm 0.5  Ni 0 and pH 6.2ish

I did some KH and GH testing without coming back to this thread to check on what I should be doing, and foolishly tested my tap water instead of the tank water.

My KH test turned pale straw yellow with two drops :-(   I wasn't sure if I was supposed to get the yellow colour to more of a match on the card, so added a third drop.  This turned the water a bit more yellow.  Do I take it the 2nd drop is the correct result (even though it was pale, it was definitely not blue!).

My GH test turned pale blue on the second drop.  Again, a third drop made it a bit more intense blue but I'm guessing the result is two drops, i.e. 40 = soft.

I have to go out now, but will test the tank water when I get back this afternoon.  I'm probably being very dumb here    but have I understood it correctly that I add the salts directly to the tank?  For example, if my tank measures the same as the tap water (2 drops = 20) and the directions say to add one level spoonful per 15 litres, do I need to add four spoonfuls (over a period of time - and is it a couple of hours between each)?  And then when I do my water change (daily because my ammonia levels rise to 0.5 over a 24 hr period) I add the salts to the new water before adding to the tank?   

I won't do anything until I hear from you (sorry, that's not meant to sound like I'm hassling you!) but I don't want to add the salts to the tank if that's NOT correct.  These little fish have a lot to contend with, without me possibly killing them with salt 

Thanks again for your time and patience...

Liz

Hi Sue,  it never occurred to me that the two brands of tests would have different colours.  The Nutrafin one (for KH) says add one drop and it should go blue which mine did. You then add another drop and keep adding until the colour turns to yellow/lime.  Mine turned to yellow/lime after the second drop.  Says to multiply number of drops by 10 so mine = 20.  Then says that < 20 mg/L means adjust with an appropriate buffer.  20-80 is normally associated with low ph (good for fish that prefer acidic conditions).

As mine falls within the normal parameters of 20-80 (it's possible for your water to turn yellow/lime with the first drop and mine was blue with the first drop, not turning yellow/lime until the second drop was added) I'm dithering about whether or not I need to buffer.  I think, Sue, you said your KH was quite low and you manage it by doing more frequent water changes.  I know of two other people locally who keep tropical fish and they don't add remineralisation salts...  Am I jumping the gun a bit?  Or maybe I just need to buffer until my tank's cycled so it doesn't stall.  What if I did water changes twice a day (about 20%) and see if that corrects my pH/KH?

It's not that I don't want to use the remineralisation salts, I'm just a bit reluctant to start doing something that might not really be necessary. 

I think I'll test the tank again for pH and test it for KH as well (approx 8 hrs after WC this morning) and see what that's like.  By waiting a bit longer, I guess the worst that can happen is the cycle will stall.  It won't hurt my fish - will it?

I'll report back shortly....

Liz