Tropical Fish Forum
Tropical Fish Keeping Help and Advice => New Fishkeepers => Topic started by: heather62 on December 10, 2016, 07:22:19 PM
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Hi everyone! (and thanks in advance for any advice you can offer me!)
I am new to fish keeping (and very excited). I have a 54 litre Leddy 60 tank that is not set up yet but I am taking time first to make decisions regarding layout, plants and fish choices. I am planning on doing a fishless cycle (and will likely have questions when that stage is starting!)
It goes without saying that my primary concern is that I keep happy and healthy fish, so deciding which fish I keep is going to influence plants/ substrate etc, so I was hoping to have your opinions/ advice / help as much more experienced fish keepers!
I have searched the water quality in my area and these are the results:
Soft water
CaCo3 50mg/l
Ca 20 mg/l
degrees clarke 3.54
degrees french 5.05
degrees german 2.83
My dad keeps fish and lives just down the road, his pH is 7
Would any of these possible fish choices be advisable?:-
6 x dwarf rainbow
4 x cory
2x ram
4x cory
6-8 tetra/ rasbora
2 or 3 dwarf gourami
4 x cory
6-8 tetra/ rasbora
i have also considered either 1 male betta or a few female bettas with corys
I particularly like panda and false julii corys, but would also like an opinion on these vs pygmy corys
I am open to any advice (or fish pairings I haven't considered!). I am aware of some potential issues (health, territorial) with the rams and some gourami but until now have had no one to discuss if these are realistic or common problems that should stop me from considering these fish or not.
I also know that the tank isn't realistically going to be 54 litres, I have tried to keep this in mind when using the stocking calculator.
Even though very new to the hobby, I do have a science background, and did my final year research project in water quality for shrimp so feel I have got some knowledge to help me through (easy for me to say now eh?!).
Thank you so much for any help, I really want to get it right!
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Welcome to fishkeeping and to the forum, Heather! :wave:
I have the same size of tank as you and very soft water. Take a look at my 'signature' to see what I have.
Good to read that you have your priorities right in terms of keeping happy and healthy fish and doing a fishless cycle; that's also helpful to know what your water parameters are in terms of us being able to help you with potentially suitable fish.
In terms of your fish choices, they all seem good and well-researched options to me, but, if you did keep cories, then I'd strongly advise keeping a minimum of 6 and possibly 10-12 if you opted for pygmy cories which seem to fare better in larger groups.
A few of us on the forum had problems with pygmy cories last year (myself included) and never got to the bottom of the issue. In my own case, I don't know whether there were bad batches at the time or not (given that I wasn't alone in my experience), whether they might have fared better with similar-sized tankmates (eg micro strawberry/chilli rasboras or ember tetras, rather than larger tetras) or in larger numbers, or whether the x-ray tetras (which have a reputation for being a bit fin-nippy) may have intimidated them into an early demise. On the basis of this experience, I'd probably recommend one of the other species of cory which you mention as they'd be closer in size to your other fish (unless you opted for the micro-sized tetra/rasbora).
Hope this helps as a "starter for ten". :)
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Welcome!
2 German blue rams could work, i keep mine in a 60cm tank too, I'd try to get either 2 females who are of similar size or a mates pair to avoid any conflicts as they can be very territorial. Rams in my experience need a good stable tank both in terms of having been established for a few months but also in terms of the lighting period, feeding times etc. As as this reduces aggression, so if you can offer this I think you will increase your chances.
I personally prefer to ensure there is always a lot of swimming room for my fish as I feel it is less like being 'in a cage' for them that way. As a result, I've never considered fish more than 5cm for my tank and never owned fish over 4cm. I am yet to keep corys but they are next on the wishlist.
Dwarf gourami have become somewhat prone to disease I am lead to believe and can also suffer from aggression. I had 2 honey gourami a while back which are smaller than dwarf gourami and one definitely bullied the other, it became susceptible to disease and didn't live long (that said, neither did the other really :-\)
I've no experience with rainbows so thats probably the limits of my thoughts/views/experiences, others will have thoughts to offer you too I'm sure :)
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Hi Heather and welcome to the forum. :wave:
I have hard water, so don't have experience with fish that are only suited to the water in your area.
I do have a male betta with a group of panda cories though. I'm quite fond of the pandas, I thnk that they have lovely markings and are great to watch. My betta is quite chilled about sharing his tank, even though he was in there first he's had no problem accepting the pandas.
Lots of time on the community creator and looking through the fish profiles is always a pleasant way to spend some time. :)
Best of luck with your fishless tank cycle. I hope that you can get some mature media from your Dad to kick start your system, this will cut down the cycle time significantly. Please keep us posted on your progress as we love to hear about new tanks.
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Welcome to the forum! I have harder water but I can remember a lot of pretty fishes I ruled out because they like softer water.
A somewhat more rare pairing I would look at is a pair of apistogramma and six pencil fish. I would go for the cockatoo apisto and red pencilfish but there are plenty of other options in those species to look at. The german blue rams are pretty too so it's just another option. :)
I wouldn't recommend the dwarf rainbowfish. They look great (and I'm getting some for my project tank) but grow up to 8 cm and you'd need at least six of them. That'd be overstocking the aquarium. They also prefer harder water than you have.
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I would go for the cockatoo apisto and red pencilfish but there are plenty of other options in those species to look at.
The coral red pencilfish are indeed lovely - they tempted me recently - but, unfortunately, I discovered that they required a much larger tank http://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/nannostomus-mortenthaleri/ due at least to the territorialism among males. However, from recollection, some of the other pencilfish might be fine.
In case you had your heart set on the dwarf rainbowfish, I decided to look at the Community Creator on this website to see whether or not it might be do-able, given that http://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/melanotaenia-praecox/ (an equivalent resource but slightly more up-to-date figures than on here) suggested that tank size would be fine. I adjusted the numbers to take into account the size of 8cm (rather than 6cm of fish) ie 48cm of fish for 6 of them. However, bearing in mind that 54 litres will be more like 45-49 litres once you take into account decor, this is pushing the stock into being overstocked with just those fish alone, unfortunately. :(
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I have just closed a tank with the same dimensions as the Leddy 60 (60 x 30 x 30 cm) and it doesn't hold 54 litres of water. A lot of tank manufacturers give the volume as the space occupied by the aquarium, not what it will hold. You have to leave a couple of cm space above the water or the tank would overflow very easily which does reduce the volume quite a bit. I called mine a 50 litre aquarium.
But it is a long tank for 50 litres which means that there are more fish that would be suitable than for a shorter tank of the same volume.
I have had dwarf rainbows in a 107 cm long tank, and they are very active fish. They used the entire length of the tank and were so fast swimming I couldn't stand it so I gave them away.
Nannostomus mortenthaleri are also expensive! I have kept the similar - less colourful but a lot cheaper - Nannostomus marginatus, the dwarf pencilfish, in a 60 cm long tank with no problems. Another species I have kept is golden pencilfish (Nannostomus beckfordi). These are slightly larger pencilfish but they are not fast swimming fish and are more adaptable than mortenthaleri or dwarfs.
I have to agree with marquismirage, though I would amend it to cockatoo or agassizi's apistogrammas plus dwarf or golden pencilfish.
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Thank you all for your quick and very helpful advice, it has given me a lot to think about!
I have discarded the dwarf rainbow fish idea, I don't want to be pushing my stocking density and it's very interesting to learn Sue that they are so active and swam the length of your 107cm tank.
The cockatoo apisto is very lovely! I haven't come across that fish before so have enjoyed looking into it and it has definitely given me something to consider (and another excuse to go the the aquarium shop this week), and I do also still love the rams :) .
With regards to having a stable established tank for german rams, is this the same for the cockatoo apisto? My tank is brand new, and even though it will be cycled before adding any fish I am concerned it won't be suitable yet and the rams/ apisto may have to be a project for the future?
After the query on the established tank/ ram situation I have done some (more) deliberation on the community fish creator, what are your opinions on:
1x male betta
6x panda cories
6x harlequin rasbora OR 8 ember tetras (I am open to other suggestions too!)
This gives me a stocking density of 82% in a 50 litre tank. After quite a bit of research I am under the impression a betta can live well with these fish and I would be adding him last but as always would love to hear your opinions and experiences.
Thank you again, you are all great! :fishy1:
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Bettas have very individual personalities. At one end of the spectrum is the fish that is so laid back it is easily bullied to death. At the other end is the fish which attacks anything that moves - and I've heard of bettas biting the antennae off snails. Most are somewhere between those two extremes but you can't be sure where any fish in a shop is till he's lived in your tank a few weeks. Some fish live happily with tank mates for a few months, then go on a killing spree.
I don't recommend bettas with any other fish unless there is a back up plan, usually in the shape of a small tank he can be moved to at a moment's notice.
And females can be as bad. I wouldn't try the female betta sorority you mentioned until you have more experience.
There is nothing to stop you getting a tank of around 25 litres for just a betta at some time ;D
Re apistos, I do feel that they would be better in a tank with a bigger footprint. For all bottom dwelling fish, be they cories, loaches or dwarf cichlids, the tank's footprint is more important than the volume.
For a 50 litre tank, you don't actually need a 'centrepiece fish' such as gouramis or dwarf cichlids. A couple of shoals of small fish would look just as good.
An example. 8 to 10 ember tetras and 8 to 10 Microdevario kubotai (http://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/microdevario-kubotai/). The first are orange red, the second are green. I have had both in the same tank and they complement each other well. The microdevarios aren't in the fish profiles though so I just put them in the Community Creator as more ember tetras. You'll find them in shops as neon green rasboras or even green tetras.
10 of each of those would put you about 80% stocked.
Bottom dwellers are bit tricky. I'm one of those that fcmf mentioned as not having much luck at keeping pygmy cories, and also salt & pepper cories (Corydoras habrosus) alive, though I have to admit that since I closed the 50 litre and moved all the fish into my 180 litre the pygmy cories seem to be OK.
Panda cories would be OK size-wise with smaller shoals of upper dwelling fish but they are a rarity in the cory world for liking fast flowing water, which might not suit small shoaling fish.
I know you did a research project in shrimp water quality - how do you feel about keeping them in an aquarium? With small upper level shoaling fish, something like cherry shrimp would fit well once the tank has been running a few months. They don't just come in red, there are also yellow, orange and blue varieties available (don't mix them or you'd end up with a tank of brown shrimps) though you would need to use something like cuttlefish bones to give them some calcium with your soft water.
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I had my betta in a 24L tank to start with.
I then got him a 34L tank, and added the panda cories. There is a lot of wood, etc. in the tank, so plenty of places for the pandas to hide if they want to. I kept the 24L tank going, in case of emergencies, but was lucky.
I am now setting up a 60 x 30cm tank and they will be moving again eventually.
The 50L tank was originally set up as a temperate tank, with v. platies, white cloud moutain minnows, peppered cories, and amano shrimp (all now in a 70L tank).
Although I don't (yet) have colourful shrimp I have amano shrimp in 3 of my tanks and they are great, so perhaps Sue's idea of small shoaling fish and pretty shrimp, plus another tank for a betta, could be the way forward (I'm a big fan of more tanks ;D ).
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I keep my male betta in with 10 white cloud mountain minnows, 2 African dwarf frogs, and five amano shrimp.
The size and speed of the shrimp and minnows pretty much keep them safe. I got the minnows as a hardy fish to keep with small goldfish but after keeping them for a while their colours really came out and their interactions interest me. The colours are understated in a tasteful way and won't attract attention of the betta. Six of them with a betta would be good, you could probably get away with ten if it's just them and the betta. The key for keeping them and the betta happy will be plants (fake or real) in the back corners where they can hide and maybe a decoration they can circle around. Leave enough open space at the front for the minnows to swim though. Also they aren't fin nippers as tetras tend to be. I find them to be very calming now and I'm glad I got them.
The amano shrimp I got as cleaners but got really interesting when they got larger and swam around the room. The shrimp disappear for days then appear out of nowhere zooming around. :) I've grown attached to them too. They have a strange otherworldly quality.
The frogs are curiosities. They're not that exciting and, like the shrimp, hide a lot. I personally love frogs as it brings back childhood memories but they're definitely a personal taste thing. I wouldn't recommend them for a 50 l tank though as they are territorial but still require company.
Anyway, I've rambled a bit. If you do decide to get a betta take some time to look around as there are some nice ones around. My local LFS currently has a light blue one with silver edges to the fins and I would have happily taken it home if I could. Purebreds can get expensive (between £20 - $50) but can be really stunning. IMHO it's worth it for a fishy work of art that will live 2-4 years with you, maybe up to 7 with good care.
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I fell for my betta on a trip to MA for something else. As soon as I saw him I had to have him, and completely forgot what I'd originally gone in for. Lucky I always tend to have at least 1 spare tank around.
I got my first amano shrimp more for their help in the tank rather than their looks, but I also find them fascinating to watch. The three females in the temperate tank with the WCMM rarely hide and are the most bold. :)
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Following the above comment about "falling for a fish" on a visit to a pet/aquatic shop, it is probably wise to have various combinations/shortlists (maybe 3 different permutations) rather than being too specific about exactly what you're wanting. You may find that you do indeed "fall for" a species of fish, in which case you'll have a ready-made list of compatible options for that fish available. Alternatively, you may find that a particular species of fish is rarely stocked or that recent stocks haven't been faring too well, in which case you may want to look at one of your other permutations.
I find that sometimes I go into the LFS and a particular species unduly catches my attention; if I go in again the following week, sometimes this doesn't happen or another one attracts me, possibly because it was pale the previous week but has coloured-up since settling in. If, however, I go in on two visits, and the same species "has a hold on me", then I know that it would be the species for me. You might find such visits help in that respect - or watching YouTube clips of particular species in action.
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Thank you for all your helpful replies,
This has given me a lot to think about and another excuse to have a look around the shop tomorrow ;D.
Shrimp have always been on the cards but I did not know you could get all those colours! They look fantastic and have definitely caught my eye- thanks for pointing me in that direction.
Having a betta tank in the future is a good excuse to get another tank if/ when I become addicted!
I will keep you posted on the final project hopefully in a few weeks now!
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Having a betta tank in the future is a good excuse to get another tank if/ when I become addicted!
That's the spirit! You're going to fit in well here at ThinkFish. ;D
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One afterthought which randomly entered my head just now, and which I don't think we've mentioned, is that cories generally tend to do better if added to the tank later down the line - not just after a fishless cycle but possibly 9+ months down the line once a biofilm has had a chance to develop. The same applies to octocinclus fish who particularly benefit from a biofilm. [That theory may additionally have accounted for the demise of my own pygmy cories - I added them to the tank within a month or so of the tank cycle completion.]
Hope that's helpful and apologies if it wasn't mentioned earlier.
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Thank you, and I will take all that into consideration.
After more deliberation and visits to shops with your advice on board i'm drawn to corydora (but will add these later down the line) and harlequin rasbora, they look fantastic swimming around in numbers!.
I am happy in the boat of less species but more numbers, with a bottom dwelling fish and a middle dwelling fish so they each have the majority of their preferred tank area. I was thinking of 8-10 rasbora and 5-6 corydora? This brings a stocking density of a 50 litre tank between the 76-90% mark.
Are these two types of fish a good match? Or should I be looking at tetras rather than rasboras (to keep the biotope amazonian?)
Thanks again.
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The harlequin rasboras' swimming in a shoal in a large group was what drew me to them too and why I opted for them. I think your suggestion of 8-10 of them sounds perfect.
As for the corydora, I'd opt for a minimum of 6, if I were you (or 8 of the micro-sized species if you opted for them) - they seem to fare better that way.
As for whether the harlequins and corydoras would be a good match, I think they'd be perfect - take a read of http://forums.thinkfish.co.uk/general-fishkeeping-advice/fish-compatibilty/msg31053/#msg31053, reply no.5, and especially the middle paragraph - I felt that the harlequins were much more compatible with the cories than the tetras were.
In a nutshell, I think your choice is excellent. Hope this helps.
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Me too - good choice. I think that'll look great and be a good environment for the fish.
Of course, it'd have to be everyone's favourite.... the Panda Cory! woot-woot!
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Harlequins have lovely markings, very attractive, and the more the merrier. :)
I have a soft spot for the panda cory, again a fish with lovely markings. I think all cories have a lovely way of moving, and the bum in the air whilst rummaging through the substrate never fails to raise a smile. ;D
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There are two other species similar to harlequins but slightly smaller. They are the Hengel's rasbora/porkchop rasbora/copper rasbora (Trigonostigma hengeli)and the Espe's rasbora/lambchop rasbora/slender rasbora (Trigonostigma espei). As you can see they both have several common names. I have hengel's rasboras and they do behave like harlequins. They are the most schooling fish I've ever kept, they swim together all the time, or possibly in two smaller schools (I have 14 of them). If you can find a shop that stocks these fish, have a look at them to see which you prefer. I ended up with hengeli as the shop I use didn't have enough of harlequins or espe's rasboras - I wanted 15, and there were about 30 hengelis in their tank.
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Id think these two fish species will get on well too.
I have always had a soft spot for the smaller corys e.g. pygmy cory but many who have kept them on here have struggled to keep them alive.
There is also the purple harlequin too.
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I should have mentioned purple harlequins. I did ask the shop to get some for me but they couldn't find any, their wholesaler only listed black harlequins. I had forgotten to tell them that this colour morph of harlequin rasbora is called purple harlequin, black harlequin, royal harlequin, orange nosed harlequin, and any combination of those names, and probably more I haven't come across yet. The black harlequins on their list were the same fish as the purple harlequins I'd asked for.
Just a heads-up for anyone wanting these fish :)
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Just a quick update!
My tank finished cycling yesterday Yay! :fishy1:
So, today was 'fish day' and I have come home with some hengels rasbora (I asked for 8 but found 9 in the bag when i got home) and a nerite snail. All have explored their tank and are looking good, if at bit shy at the moment..... except the snail who seems to be quite bold and very much enjoying him/herself.
Will post some pics when they have settled in a bit more.
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'fish day'
Yey! It's always a good day when its a fish day, especially when there is a newly cycled tank thrown in ;D
Hope everyone is settling in ok, keep us updated!
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Congrats on the new fish. :D
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Hooray ;D
I hope that the new fish are settling in to the tank and I'm looking forward to seeing pics. :cheers:
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Nice choice of fish :)
I've found my hengels rasboras tend to run for cover if they get startled but they soon come back out once the 'danger' has passed. They also school more than any other fish I've had.
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How lovely - and very good choice of fish. Looking forward to seeing the pics in due course.
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Good news!
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Thanks everyone! It is all very exciting.
@Sue They are very tightly shoaling, and have now settled and come out of their shell- darting around the tank in tight formation :)
I have been glued to the tank for the past 24 hours- its amazing how much time you can spend peering in!
I have however noticed 1 fish that doesn't seem to be too well- This afternoon I noticed there was a small red patch on the lip and on closer inspection maybe a bit of white (but in a tiny rasbora it is difficult to see). I initially thought it may be colouring but when the air stone went on it couldn't cope very well with current and started to get swept away while the others swam well around it. Since then I have been watching it closely and it seems to be lingering, weaker than the others and is moving its mouth more than the others. I think if I hadn't been glued to the tank I wouldn't have noticed, it is quite subtle- it is still shoaling and eating.
After a bit of research, could this be mouth rot?
All the other fish are fine, healthy, strong and have no red or white on their mouths or bodies.
It's a bit frustrating having a possible sickly fish less than 24 hours of becoming a fish keeper!
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I have lost four of my 18 hengels rasboras. I found one dried up on the floor, but the other three died in my tank within a couple of weeks of getting them. I didn't see anything on them while they were alive, I just found them dead.
It would seem that some fish are too weak to survive all the trauma they go through from the breeder to the wholesaler to the shop and finally to our tanks.
I suspect your rasbora is another example of this, and the mark on its mouth is a symptom of it being very stressed. I'm afraid I don't hold out much hope with the symptoms you give - the rapid breathing and not being able to cope with water current :(
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Thanks for the fast reply- this little fish isn't doing too well, i'm not sure it will make it through the night.
I have also noticed a white spot on another ones tail- it is only that one and only 1 spot, but i'm fearful it could be whitespot? Any thoughts and suggestions I would greatly appreciate.
I feel a bit disheartened after going through the last couple of weeks ensuring everything is done properly to only have been sold poorly fish...... all part of the nature of fish keeping I guess- live and learn!
I have attached a picture (it was the best I could get)- the fish with the bad mouth is in the middle with its mouth thickened and open, the tail of the whitespot fish is on the left.
(I hope I am wrong!)
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Don't panic about whitespot just yet. White spots on the fins can also be scars from nips or other damage eg netting the fish. Keep an eye on all the fish and if no more white spots appear, damage is the most likely answer.
If it is whitespot, there will be more spots but this is an easily treatable disease that most fishkeepers have to contend with at some point.