New Tank Setup

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Offline FoundNemo

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New tank setup
« on: June 11, 2017, 10:30:39 AM »
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Hello guys

So I've never keep tropical fish before so my knowledge is almost zero on the subject. I have been doing a lot of reading this week (mainly on this site) since I purchased my 1st tank from amazon on Monday.

The tank I purchased is the interpet insight led 64 l and I decided on using a sand substrate. The tank came with the interpet cf2 filter and deltaham 100w heater.

I have finally got my tank setup excluding fish and decorations and its been running almost 24hrs. I plan on starting a fishless cycle later this evening.

I just have a few questions I'm hoping the very helpful members of this forum can help me with.

Firstly with regards to the fishless cycle. I have purchased the API freshwater master test kit to help with testing the water. Sue mentions in her guide to add 0.2ml of ammonia per 10 litres until you get a reading of 3.0ppm. Unfortunately the test kit I have only shows 2.0ppm and 4.0ppm on its chart so I'm just wondering how I go about telling if my ammonia lvls are in fact 3.0ppm. Has anybody used this kit and able to shine some light on this for me? Or is there another kit that's more precise in its readings that I could purchase?

My other question relates to the type of fish to keep in my tank. I have been on my water boards website have pulled the following information about my water supply from it.

Calcium mgCa/l - 29.78
Magnesium mgMg/l - 13.89
Hardness mg/l CaCo3 - 131.39 (which is 7.36KH I think)
Clark degrees - 9.22
French degrees - 13.14
German degrees - 7.36
Hardness level - slightly hard

I also tested my tap water yesterday after I had filled my tank.

Readings straight from the tap
Ph - 7.6
Ammonia - 0 - 25ppm
Nitrite - 0ppm
Nitrate - 10 - 20ppm

I will test my tap water again later today when it's been sitting for 24hrs to see the ph difference.

I haven't got a preference of the type of fish that I keep. I will just be happy to have a tank full of happy fish. So I am open to any suggestions on this.

I think that's it for now. I can't think of anything else.

Any pointers or  suggestions are hugely welcome.

Thanks in advance guys



 

Offline Sue

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Re: New tank setup
« Reply #1 on: June 11, 2017, 11:12:45 AM »
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I have the API ammonia tester and I just aim for a colour somewhere between 2 and 4. The main thing is to be between those two colours. 2 ppm may not grow enough bacteria, and 4 ppm may make too much nitrite which would stall the cycle. As long as the colour is somewhere between that's all that's needed.

The water company's data can be misleading. My younger son once worked for a water testing company and he explained to me what exactly is meant by hardness.
Hardness, also called general hardness or GH by fishkeepers, is a measure of the amount of divalent metal ions in the water. In practice this means mainly calcium ions, with some magnesium ions and traces of other metal ions. But rather than try to give hardness in all the minerals, they add them all together and express the level as though it was all calcium carbonate.
So the data they give as "Hardness mg/l CaCo3 - 131.39" is not KH it is GH.

And just to make matters more complicated, water companies don't use the term KH, they call it alkalinity. If they give it at all.


The two figures you need from the water company's list are 7.36 German degrees and 131.39 mg/l CaCo3. German degrees are also known in fish keeping as just degrees or dH, and mg/l CaCO3 is also called ppm. These are the two units you'll come across in fish profiles.
In terms of what this means for fish - the water is too soft for those fish that need hard water, which is mainly livebearers such as guppies, mollies and platies, and cichlids from the African Rift Lakes. But you also need to avoid the few fish that really must have very soft water - and there are not many of those in shops. You should be fine with most tetras, fish like harlequin rasboras, gouramis etc. Of course you will also need to choose fish suitable for the size of your tank which will reduce your options a bit.

You have plenty time during cycling to go window shopping in all your local fish shops to see what they stock, then research the ones you like and draw up a short list. But I must warn you that few shops advise fishless cycling and they are likely to try to persuade you to buy some fish and a bottle of bacteria (which won't cycle a tank instantly despite what the shop might say). Don't let them persuade you!!
The best site for research is Seriously Fish as they have a lot more species than the database on here.




Now to your own test results.
I hope the ammonia reading should be 0.25 rather than 25  ;D . Ammonia testers can be hard to read. A lot of people never see the zero colour, especially under fluorescent lights. If you have any other source of water to hand (eg bottled water, a filter jug etc) it would be worth testing that alongside some tap water to see if there is any difference in colour.
The maximum permitted level of ammonia in drinking water is 0.5 ppm, and this usually occurs when the water company uses chloramine instead of chlorine as a disinfectant. Chloramine is an ammonia and a chlorine joined together.

Your nitrate reading is fine, it is nowhere near the max permitted level of 50 ppm. When testing tank nitrate and looking for an increase, don't forget to subtract the tap level.

Offline FoundNemo

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Re: New tank setup
« Reply #2 on: June 11, 2017, 11:54:59 AM »
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Hi sue

Thanks for the speedy response. Yes ammonia reading is 0.25 not 25 lol. I will aim for a colour in between the 2 and 4 ppm. That's reassuring as I tend to like to get readings like that spot on. The joys of working with numbers for a living.
 
I did do a bit of reading on water hardness but tbh it hurt my head  :vcross:. So from my water supply readings I have soft water? Even though it says slightly hard?

Unfortunately I only have 2 shops in my town that sells tropical fish. 1 is p@h which I won't be buying from. The other is a garden centre which is were I'll most likely purchase my fish from when the time comes. Would you recommend purchasing fish online? I would imagine the journey in the post would be quite stressful for them?

I have already been in both shops recently but haven't enough time to properly look. I should hopefully have the time this week to do more fish research. But from what I gather I should be looking at fish that are suited to soft water? Thanks for the link to seriously fish. I haven't been on their yet.

Regards to shop staff. I won't be paying them to much notice other than to pay them for the goods I'm getting lol. I get that just from reading other people's stories on here. More interested in money that the well being of the fish. id rather ask people on boards like this who have built up reputation than from somebody with a company uniform on. Not to say that they all don't have the knowledge. I just have no way of knowing.

My aquarium came with a bottle of filter start. Do I add this along with the ammonia during the fishless cycle?

I did not think to subtract the tap nitrate from my tank reading lol.

Thanks


Offline Sue

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Re: New tank setup
« Reply #3 on: June 11, 2017, 12:19:16 PM »
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Using words like slightly hard or moderately soft varies with the source of the wording. You have water that is a bit harder than soft but not high enough to make it even moderately hard. A lot of soft water fish are fine in water a bit harder than yours. Even fish like neon tetras and harlequin rasboras have your hardness in their range. You just need to avoid the ones that need water below your hardness. And a lot of hard water fish need hardness of 10 and above, avoid those too.


P@H is a variable shop, it is all down to the individual managers. Some do not train their staff in anything but how to make a sale, but you also get some where there is a manager who knows about fish and trains his staff accordingly. It is safer to assume that any shop is one of the poor ones until you investigate them thoroughly  :)
It is possible to buy fish on line but there are downsides to this. First is the cost of transport as shops are supposed to use only licensed couriers rather than Royal Mail. You can't choose the actual fish, which is important when buying fish that are non-shoaling. For example, looking at my signature, I let the shop choose the shoaling rasboras and rice fish, but I chose the individual gudgeons and stiphodons. And lastly, the shop's water might be totally different from yours in which case you would need to acclimatise them carefully. Nearby shops usually, but not always, have similar water.

My favourite fish shop is about 15 miles away, don't be afraid to go further afield.


The bacterial booster - you may as well use it since you have it. Some of them contain ammonia, so check your measurements after adding it. The majority of bottled bacteria contain the right species of ammonia eating bacteria but the wrong species of nitrite eaters. So it could help with the first stage but not the second. But anything that speeds the cycle even a bit will help.

Offline FoundNemo

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Re: New tank setup
« Reply #4 on: June 11, 2017, 12:56:30 PM »
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So as long as I stick to fish that are best suited to my water conditions. Within my caco3 and dh readings I should do fine. That makes my searching must easier. Thanks.

I'm going to stay clear from p@h tbh. Never really liked their shop. And I'll stay clear off purchasing online. The garden centre close to me is meant to be pretty decent. Heathhall Garden Centre. There are also a couple aquatics shops not too far away. I don't drive so it's not easy relying on public transport to get to and from them.

I'm still not close to stocking my tank yet. As you say I've plenty of time to figure it out. Do you have any suggestions on types of fish that I should look at for initially stocking?

I think I'll stay away from the filter start. It tells me to calculate the dose from the guide enclosed.  There wasn't an enclosed guide lol.

Offline fcmf

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Re: New tank setup
« Reply #5 on: June 11, 2017, 01:48:20 PM »
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So from my water supply readings I have soft water? Even though it says slightly hard?
The Scottish Water website's categories are "soft", "moderately soft", slightly hard", "moderately hard", "hard" (very few areas) and "excessively hard" (only one part of Orkney). However, the readings for most/all of the "soft" ones would be classified as "very soft" under many other water companies' websites, which is why it's so important to focus on the actual readings than the classification. Hope that's helpful. :)

In terms of fish, take a look at Sue's suggestions ie #2 on this thread https://forums.thinkfish.co.uk/fishtank-filtration-and-cycling/soft-water/msg34480/?topicseen#new which might help.

Offline Sue

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Re: New tank setup
« Reply #6 on: June 11, 2017, 02:10:49 PM »
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For fish, do you prefer lots of little fish or a few bigger ones? Bright colours or pastel colours?



I've just looked at your tank. It gives the dimensions as 62 cm wide x 32 cm deep x 44 cm high. That is fairly standard for tanks around 60 litres, with only the height increasing with the volume. Another thing you need to check in fish profiles is the minimum tank length they need. Some small fish are fast swimmers so they need longer tanks than you'd think from their size so they have enough swimming room. And for bottom dwellers you need to go by the tank's footprint rather than the volume.

But I'll have to say it. The filter. I don't like cartridge filters. According to what I can find, the only thing worth having in this filter is the ceramic biological medium. Carbon is not needed full time and the algaway pad probably does nothing useful. Filter floss does trap fine particles but it is in a combined carbon-floss cartridge.
I suggest you do one of two things before you start the cycle. Either get a new filter or replace the algaway pad and carbon-floss cartridge with a sponge, any make cut to fit.

If you decide to keep the filter as it is, please ignore what it says about replacing the media every few months. You'll just throw away a lot of the bacteria you are about to grow. Media only needs replacing when it falls apart, and then only one bit at a time with at least a month between replacements. All you need to do is squeeze media that can be squeezed in the water you take out during a water change, and swoosh around the media that can't be squeezed.






I do know what you mean about shop accessibilty. I don't drive either and there is no bus that goes near my favourite shop. I have to persuade my husband to take me there  :)

Offline FoundNemo

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Re: New tank setup
« Reply #7 on: June 11, 2017, 02:42:09 PM »
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Thank you fcmf for that info.

Sue, I'd have to say a few bigger fish mixed with a few smaller fish. I know the size of tank I have will restrict the amount of fish I can put in it.

What would you suggest with regards to my filter? Obviously the sponge is the cheaper option but I don't mind paying for a new filter if that's the better option?

Passing my driving test is on my to do list. Driving does come in handy from time to time

Offline Sue

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Re: New tank setup
« Reply #8 on: June 11, 2017, 02:52:06 PM »
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I am counting down the days. In three and a half weeks I can apply for my bus pass  ;D



I am going to be very lazy and give you a link. it'll save me typing everything again, and there are comments from other people too.

https://forums.thinkfish.co.uk/welcome-to-our-tropical-fish-forum-please-read/new-64l-tank-qus-on-filter-and-also-plant-substrate-with-sand/


Offline Sue

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Re: New tank setup
« Reply #9 on: June 11, 2017, 03:36:24 PM »
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Given the tank size, bigger fish can't be too big. So a few suggestions for you to look at when you go to a fish shop.

These are fish that I have owned during the last 20 years, and are fine in water of hardness 7.4 dH:

Honey gourami, Trichogaster chuna. Peaceful for a gourami and is small enough. 1 male 2 females would be suitable for your tank. Only 1 male as they are territorial. Comes in a few colours - natural (tan male, silver grey female), yellow and red. Natural are quite easy to distinguish the gender, yellows are a bit harder but I can give you a few pointers if you decide on these fish, red are almost impossible to tell apart.
The slightly larger dwarf gourami comes with built in health issues and are best avoided.

Apistogrammas. There are several species, some of which need very soft water. These are colourful bottom dwelling fish, though they also swim mid water. The two most common species are also ones that do well in harder water - cockatoo cichlid, Apistogramma cacatuoides and agassizi's cichlid A. agassizzi. Both of these come in a few colour variations, though of course the brightest, most selectively bred ones are the most expensive.
There is a third apisto; the umbrella cichlid, A. borellii is not as common in shops, but the male is blue rather than yellow-orange.
These apistos are all fine as a male/female pair or 1m 2f trio.

Peacock goby/gudgeon Tateundina ocellicauda. Another bottom dweller, but don't let that put you off. Again, 1 male 2 females. I have 5 of these fish in my 180 litre, 2m 3f. And even in a tank with a 107 x 45 cm footprint, the males size up to each other, so for your tank definitely only 1 male.

Other members will have their suggestions for larger, 'centrepiece' fish.



For small shoalers, the problem you will have is reducing the possibilities to a sensible length list  ;D

In the fish profiles in the menu at the top of the page, most of the smaller tetras would be suitable - except serpae tetras which are nasty nippy things if you chose gouramis.
Cherry barbs
Harlequin rasboras, Trigonostigma heteromorpha and their closely related lookalikes, Trigonostigma espei (slender rasbora, lambchop rasbora, espe's rabora) and Trigonostigma hengeli (copper rasbora, porkchop rasbora, hengel's rasbora). The last two have quite a few common names each!
Dwarf pencilfish, Nannostomus marginatus
And even the ricefish I have, Oryzias woworae.

There are few fish of the genus Pseudomugil that would be suitable, but check up on which ones are in the shops as some species need hard water. Species that would be OK at 7.4 dH include P. signifer and P. gertrudae, but not P. furcatus, which needs hard water.


That's enough fish for now  :)

Offline FoundNemo

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Re: New tank setup
« Reply #10 on: June 11, 2017, 06:31:16 PM »
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Hi sue.

so I went out and bought the fluval u2 filter before the shop closed and have just finished replacing the old 1 with it. Unfortunately I didn't have enough time to look at their selection of fish because of their Sunday closing time.

Thank you for the information regarding the different types of fish. It will give me plenty to research for when I do get in to have a proper look.

Have decided to hold of on starting the cycle tonight because of the filter change.

Thanks


Offline Sue

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Re: New tank setup
« Reply #11 on: June 11, 2017, 06:46:20 PM »
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Fluval is one of the better makes of filter  :)

You have a few weeks yet to finalise your fish list. When you go window shopping, don't forget that the fish in the shop tanks are juveniles, and they'll get bigger  :)

Offline FoundNemo

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Re: New tank setup
« Reply #12 on: June 11, 2017, 06:55:46 PM »
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It wasn't a lot of money for peace of mind.

I'll definitely keep the size of the fish in mind. I think if I work to total max length of all fish in my tank to be 50cm I should be ok

I'll post my thoughts on fish before taking the plunge to make sure I haven't missed anything.

Thank you very much for your help and advice. It very much appreciated

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