New Set Up

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Offline Andy M

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New set up
« on: May 12, 2013, 02:09:56 PM »
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Hi all. Just set up a fluval roma 90 on Tuesday 7/5/13. I added nutrafin aqua plus and cycle and am going to take a water sample in to be tested on Tuesday. Am i going about things the right way so far?
Thanks
Andy

Offline water watcher

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Re: New set up
« Reply #1 on: May 12, 2013, 03:32:26 PM »
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Hi and welcome.

Have a look in the Filtration and Cycling section. Sue has put 2 very informative threads on about cycling with and without fish. I guess you are looking to do a fishless cycle, if so you may need to add a source of ammonia to feed and breed the bacteria. (Jeyes Kleen Off is a popular source of ammonia, but check you get the right one as Kleen Off do do chemicals other than ammonia in their range)

Whichever cycle you choose, you will need to do regular water tests for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate. You may also find it useful to test PH, and water hardness (GH and KH). I suggest you buy a testing kit for the above, rather than rely on your LFS, most people seem to like/use the API master kit.


Offline Sue

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Re: New set up
« Reply #2 on: May 12, 2013, 03:40:46 PM »
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When you take the water to be tested they'll tell you your ammonia and nitrite are zero so it's safe to get fish. But the reason they'll be zero isn't because it's safe to get fish but because there is nothing in the tank yet to make ammonia and with no ammonia there's nothing to turn into nitrite. And Nutrafin Cycle is one of those 'instant bacteria' products that I have yet to see anyone reporting that it actually worked for them.

Fish make ammonia; it's in their waste and they breathe it out. Ammonia is toxic to fish - it burns their skin and gills making it hard for them to absorb oxygen. In a mature tank there are bacteria in the filter which turn this ammonia into nitrite - which is also toxic; it binds to the fish's blood stopping oxygen binding to the blood. In a mature tank, another type of bacteria turns this nitrite into nitrate. This is only toxic at high levels and is removed by water changes.
In a brand new tank there are no bacteria in the filter and despite any claims you might have heard for Cycle, this product is unlikely to help any grow - I've read enough reports of people who have tried it and found it to be useless. The bacteria are very slow growing, and the process of growing them in the filter is called cycling. Typically they take around 6 weeks to grow enough, though it has been known to take longer.



You have 2 choices, either do a cycle with fish, or do a fishless cycle using ammonia solution.
Either get a few fish on Tuesday (and by a few I mean no more than 4 small fish for a tank that size) and follow this thread cycling with fish
Or buy a bottle of ammonia solution from Homebase/eBay/Amazon/local diy shop and follow this thread fishless cycling
Have a read of these two then you'll be able to decide which method you want to try. You'll see that the fish-in cycle is a lot of hard work. It usually requires daily water changes for several weeks to prevent the fish being poisoned. Fishless is easier but it does mean looking at an empty tank for a few weeks. At the end of the fishless cycling method, you'll see a summary of the fishless cycle I've just done which will give you an idea of what to expect.

Whichever you do you will need your own testing kit, preferably one with liquid reagents and test tubes. Strip testers are notoriously inaccurate and most do not test for ammonia. With both methods you will need to test the water twice a day and taking a sample to the shop twice a day is not practical!



Any questions, just ask  ;D

Oh, and shops don't believe in fishless cycling. They'll tell you to add fish but not bother telling you to test the water, or they'll tell you to add a bacteria product like Cycle, not bothering to tell you most of them don't work.
If you want to use a bacteria product, Tetra Safe Start seems to be the best one, but it doesn't work every time. If it has been stored incorrectly the bacteria in it will be dead.

Offline Andy M

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Re: New set up
« Reply #3 on: May 12, 2013, 03:50:59 PM »
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Thank you for that, The nutrafin cycle came with the set up. If i did a fish in cycle how much water would i have to change in my 90 litre tank?   Although having read Sue's two methods i will be better doing the fishless one and being patient. It will also give me chance to add more decor and plants (not real)

Offline Sue

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Re: New set up
« Reply #4 on: May 12, 2013, 04:12:27 PM »
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With fish-in cycles, it is impossible to say 'change x litres of water every y days'. Every tank is different. You have to be guided by the ammonia and nitrite readings. The aim is to keep both those as near to zero as possible, and to make sure that they never get as high as 0.25ppm. If you see a reading above zero, a water change must be done or there is the risk they will be over 0.25 by the next test. The amount to change at one go depends on how fast the ammonia and/or nitrite are going up. To begin with, 50% is recommended, then if you find the levels are getting to 0.25 too quickly change a larger volume. Yes, all those water changes are stressful, but being poisoned is even more stressful. So long as the new water is dechlorinated and at the same temperature as the water left in the tank, the fish won't suffer. Feeling the water with your hand to compare the new and the old will get the temp close enough.

Fishless is also less stressful for the fishkeeper, except when family and friends ask why you still haven't got any fish  ;D

Offline Andy M

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Re: New set up
« Reply #5 on: May 12, 2013, 04:30:49 PM »
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Ordered API test kit off Amazon, Will Search around for Jeyes ammonia solution during the week and then get my scientists coat out  :)

Offline Sue

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Re: New set up
« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2013, 04:44:13 PM »
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That's the best way to go.

I started keeping fish way back in the mid 1990s before we had the internet. I had fish BEFORE I had a tank (teenaged sons and the dart stall at the fair) so I had no choice but do a fish-in cycle - not that I knew that's what I was doing as the books in the library didn't even mention the word cycling. When I've set up new tanks since, I've taken some mature media from an existing tank. But then I had a sick betta which I had to put down and I couldn't risk getting another one until I had sterilised the tank, which killed the filter bacteria. This time I decided to do a fishless cycle as I'd never actually done one before. I can now say from experience that fishless cycling is something I would recommend. Yes it can be frustrating (I had a pH crash!) and it can be awkward if you have to go away unexpectedly for a few days in the middle, but I still got there in just over 6 weeks.

Offline Sue

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Re: New set up
« Reply #7 on: May 12, 2013, 07:25:25 PM »
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It's just occurred to me to tell you about the API nitrate tester.

First of all, it is very difficult to make an accurate nitrate test suitable for use in the home. All those on the market, API included, should be regarded as 'ballpark' not spot-on accurate.
Second, when you get the kit you'll see that the nitrate test instructions tell you to shake bottle 2, then the test tube. This is very important. One of the reagents tends to settle on the bottom and all that shaking is to get it back in the liquid. When it's new or hasn't been used a while it is also a good idea to tap it on the work top before you start to break up any lumps that might have formed. This applies to all makes, not just API.

Offline Andy M

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Re: New set up
« Reply #8 on: May 12, 2013, 07:55:38 PM »
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Thank you for that Sue. I'm sure I will be asking a lot of what may seem silly questions in the coming weeks but being new to this, any advice would be most welcome.

Offline Andy M

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Re: New set up
« Reply #9 on: May 12, 2013, 08:40:11 PM »
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Silly question number 1.  Step 3 of your fishless cycle method says to add ammonia when level drops to zero but step 4 says nitrite levels will probably go off the scale and to keep adding ammonia daily. Is this even if ammonia levels have not dropped?

Offline SteveS

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Re: New set up
« Reply #10 on: May 13, 2013, 02:55:43 AM »
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No.  You only add ammonia when the ammonia level falls.  But, it's the falling ammonia that creates the nitrites, so as you add ammonia, the nitrites increase.  Later, the nitrites will fall.  It's important that you keep ammonia in the system to create the nitrite and to feed your newly hatched bacteria.

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Offline Sue

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Re: New set up
« Reply #11 on: May 13, 2013, 09:02:12 AM »
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That's the trouble with writing something down, you know what you mean yourself but it might not be clear to someone else.

Once the ammonia reading reaches the stage of dropping to zero within 24 hours of adding a dose it should continue to do that every day - unless you do something that kills your bacteria or add too much ammonia, of course. With this method, you check your ammonia every 24 hours right to the end of the cycle and as long as the ammonia reading is zero after 24 hours, you add more ammonia regardless of what the nitrite reading is. Towards the end of the cycle you check after 12 hours as well, but only dose ammonia at 24 hour intervals and only if the ammonia reading is zero at the 24 hour reading.

If something odd happens and you find your ammonia reading stops dropping to zero, stop dosing it until the reading does get to zero.



Bacteria are biological entities and can react to all sorts of things.
Like with my cycle - by day 39 both ammonia and nitrite were dropping to zero after 24 hours and there was only a trace of both at 12 hours. Then on day 40 the pH had plummeted and I did things to raise the pH back up. The ammonia eaters were unaffected, but the nitrite eaters stopped processing any nitrite for several hours. 12 hours after adding ammonia, the nitrite reading was off the top of the scale instead of the 0.5 it had been the previous day. But it was down to 0.25 at the 24 hour reading, then back to what it had been doing before the pH crashed. My nitrite eaters were obviously not at all happy with those sudden pH changes and it took them a good 24 hours to get over it.



While you are waiting for your test kit, have a look at your water supplier's website for the hardness of your water. It'll be on there somehwere, though some companies make it hard to find  :-\  If they class your water as soft, make sure you check your pH daily during the cycle as you are at risk of a pH crash like me.

Offline Andy M

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Re: New set up
« Reply #12 on: May 13, 2013, 03:23:35 PM »
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More to this then i thought, very confusing. Can see it being a short lived hobby  :(

Offline jesnon

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Re: New set up
« Reply #13 on: May 13, 2013, 04:15:02 PM »
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Don't worry Andy! It all sounds a lot more complicated that it actually is. Once you get your head around it, it's all makes a lot more sense. I felt the same as I'd also bought my tank rather naively before knowing anything about cycling etc. Just get started ASAP and keep posting here - we'll all help you through the process and you'll soon be happy with a tank full of very happy and grateful fishies!

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Offline Sue

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Re: New set up
« Reply #14 on: May 13, 2013, 04:59:33 PM »
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Once you have cycled the tank, the hobby becomes much easier. The hardest bit is then deciding which fish you want  ;D

After you have grown the bacteria that will keep your fish alive, it's a matter of doing weekly water changes to remove nitrate and other chemicals secreted by the fish and live plants, and to replenish minerals that the fish & plants use up. You won't need to check the ammonia & nitrite levels every day, except for a few days after getting new fish to make sure the filter is coping.; and every so often to make sure your tank is OK.

Things you can be doing while the filter is cycling include practicing doing a water change. Some people find using the siphon needs a bit of getting used to, so practice with a bucket of water before getting fish. Go round your local shops and see what they stock. Make a note of the fish you like - but don't be tempted to buy any, and don't mention doing a fishless cycle! You can use the community creator on here to see which of the fish you like will fit in your tank and will go together. Have you found the CC yet? You access it through the fish profiles in the menu at the top. Click on any fish and down at the bottom of the page you'll find the boxes to fill in for the CC. If you want to save your virtual tank you will have to register for the CC - I just use the same log in details as for the main site.


Jesnon has a thread on her fishless cycle here if you don't mind reading 20 pages of it, and my slightly shorter one is here



If you really can't get your head around fishless cycling, you could do a cycle with fish safely as long as you follow the golden rules - start with only a few fish, test your water twice a day and do a water change whenever you see a reading for ammonia and/or nitrite. Then once the cycle has finished add more fish very slowly.

Offline Andy M

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Re: New set up
« Reply #15 on: May 13, 2013, 05:35:04 PM »
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I will have to persevere and try to get my head round the fishless cycle because wouldn't have the time to be changing water every other day with a fish in cycle

Offline Sue

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Re: New set up
« Reply #16 on: May 13, 2013, 07:22:53 PM »
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If it would help, you could start a new thread and post your readings every day. Then when things start happening (eg ammonia falling) we can tell you what to do next.


What should happen is -
You'll add a dose of ammonia and test every day for ammonia. Nothing will happen for approx 2 weeks. Then the ammonia reading will drop until it gets to zero. Once the ammonia starts dropping you'll start getting a reading for nitrite so start testing for nitrite as well as ammonia every day. Ammonia will start dropping to zero in 24 hours, so you will add a dose every 24 hours. At the same time, the nitrite reading will get higher and higher and eventually that too will drop to zero. It takes about twice as long for nitrite to drop to zero as it did for ammonia.
Keep adding ammonia every day, slowly increasing the amount you add till you are adding 4ppm.
Then wait until the 4ppm dose drops to zero ammonia and zero nitrite.


To get you started -
You have a 90 litre tank. To be safe, add half a ml of ammonia, wait for 30 mins to let it mix in then test for ammonia. If the result is 1ppm, good. If it's less than that just add some more.

Offline Andy M

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Re: New set up
« Reply #17 on: May 13, 2013, 08:15:59 PM »
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Just been all over trying to get some ammonia solution with no joy, will try home base tomorrow but have heard they don't sell it anymore

Offline Andy M

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Re: New set up
« Reply #18 on: May 13, 2013, 09:48:39 PM »
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Thanks for that. Will have a drive there tomorrow and see if they have some

Offline jesnon

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Re: New set up
« Reply #19 on: May 13, 2013, 11:39:28 PM »
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If that doesn't work try The Range, their household essential ammonia (or similar) is about 1 quid and did the job for me

A Selection of Fish in my Fish Community Creator Tanks
Endler's Livebearer (8) - Panda Cory (4) - Cherry Barb (3) - Galaxy Rasbora (6) -
Note: The user may not necessarily own these fish, these are tanks that they may be building or researching for stocking purposes


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