Tropical Fish Forum
Tropical Fish Keeping Help and Advice => New Fishkeepers => Topic started by: Triggzy on June 09, 2016, 01:21:52 PM
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Hello all :)
So I got a fish tank 2 weeks ago and am currently in the process of cycling it, when I put the water in I soon realised that PH KH and GH were very high.
In tank:
PH: 9
GH: 23
KH: 15
Tap water:
PH: 9/ 9.5? its darker then 9 but lighter then 10 so not sure.
GH: 23
KH: 15
Tap water was left out for a couple days and shaked it from time to time.
I want to keep fish that like slightly acid soft water (angels plecos) so having those water parameters its most likely impossible.
From what ive researched RO water is my only real option but im afraid of the PH not being stable and since im a newbie in the hobby I will most likely get it wrong. So any advice on lowering PH / how to use RO water would be appreciated.
Also Is my tank cycled? The plan was a fishless cycle but My niece won a goldfish at the fair so I thought it would live a happier life in a 250l tank rather then a bowl. So ive been feeding him twice a day but I haven't seen the ammonia "peak" its always remained 0 I have witnessed the Nitrate slowly go up tho so im thinking im maybe done.
Ammonia: 0
Nitrate: 10
Nitrite: 0
Thanks, Alex.
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Hello, Alex, and welcome to the forum.
Sue is the cycling guru, so she'll be along soonish to help you out. Have you read the fishless cycling method here (http://www.thinkfish.co.uk/forums/fishtank-filtration-and-cycling/fishless-cycling-how-to-do-it/)?
You're not going to able to change your water down to an acceptable level..... actually, it's not water, it's liquid rock!
You're far better off making your own water by installing an RO machine and mixing in the required amounts of minerals to give suitable conditions. There's an paper here (http://www.fishkeeping.co.uk/articles_109/ro-freshwater.htm) to get you started.
Alternatively you could keep Rift Valley Cichlids as your water's OK for the right ones.... I forget which lake!
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Hi Alex and welcome to the forum.
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Since your arm has been twisted into a fish-in cycle, you have no other option. At least you had a tank when the goldfish arrived - my sons turned up from the fair with 4 which spent the first night in a mixing bowl (and one didn't make it)
250 litres is a great sized tank for goldfish. Fair fish are always common goldfish or comets, which means they have a single tail fin. Fancy goldfish have double tails, which means they aren't as good at swimming. If you mix the two, the commons and comets will always get to the food first, which is why it is not advised to mix them.
Member fcmf used to keep goldfish so she'll be able to help with their needs.
It is not a good idea to mix goldfish and tropical fish. The temperatures needed for tropicals won't do the goldfish much good. If you want tropicals you will need to find a new home for the goldfish. In this case, the simplest thing might be to give the goldfish to someone who has a goldfish pond rather than set up another large tank for the goldfish.
Your liquid rock is a bit hard even for goldfish. fcmf should be able to help you with the the levels usually recommended for goldfish. As you have found, RO water is the easiest way to reduce hardness of both types, and the pH should drop as well. There are 2 ways to use it. Either use just RO water and add remineralisation salts to put some hardness back or mix RO and tap water in whatever ratio gives the required hardness. You will need to use this RO + salts or RO/tap mixture at every water change so always make sure you have access to RO and have some salts always in stock if you use that method. To begin with, you need to change the water gradually. Too big a change at one go will harm the fish.
As for cycling, what had you done before the goldfish arrived? Even a fish as messy as a goldfish won't make much impact on a 250 litre tank. You may find the ammonia and then nitrite rise slightly but with such a huge volume to dilute it they may not go up very much and normal water changes would keep the levels under control. But be careful about adding more fish. Get new fish slowly. If you intend keeping goldfish, get one at a time and check the ammonia and nitrite levels for several days after each one.
But if you decide to go tropical, you have the chance to do a fishless cycle right to the end.
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Welcome, Alex! :wave:
As Sue has said, I kept goldfish myself for many years.
Your tank is indeed a good size for goldfish:
• it would give 2 single-tailed goldfish like the one you have a lovely home (possibly 3 but the “thinking” tends to change over time to larger requirements per goldfish and so you might find yourself five years down the line and this being considered only large enough for 2) if they are to thrive and reach their life expectancy of several decades. Alternatively, you may know someone with a pond or do an advanced search on this site www.aquarist-classifieds.co.uk to find someone in your area with a pond and prefer to move the goldfish there;
• if you prefer to keep fancy goldfish instead, then your tank would make a lovely home for about 3 of these.
While the fish may seem small now in proportion to the tank, they will grow – fast – so don’t be tempted to buy more than this! This article http://injaf.org/care-and-information/the-goldfish-section/what-size-tank-for-goldfish/ explains all about it.
As for care and feeding of goldfish:
• goldfish tend to prefer slightly alkaline water but tolerate a wide range of PH and water hardness - you’d be best to try and get your water down to around 8 for PH (7.2-7.6 is usually ideal and you might get away with up to 8.5) and to soften it a little as well;
• frequent water changes (at least once per week, 30%, without fail) are vital, and more frequently if there is any trace of ammonia which goldfish tend to produce a lot of;
• very strong filtration is needed given how much waste they produce – either a couple of very strong internal filters or ideally an external filter, as they need to filter about 10x the volume of the tank per hour;
• a diet of flakes or pellets plus some veg (eg peas with shell off and chopped into small morsels, chopped courgette, spirulina, spinach) at least twice per week and live/frozen foods maybe once per week is helpful, as they (and especially the fancy varieties) can be very prone to constipation. http://injaf.org/care-and-information/the-goldfish-section/goldfish-and-their-diet/ gives some advice on care and feeding of goldfish;
• try and keep the temperature of the tank down in summer – they do best around 20’C so you may need to do daily water changes in summer to keep the tank temperature low enough, otherwise they become lethargic and float near the top.
Hope this helps as a “starter for ten” at least but feel free to ask further questions if you have any.
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Following my long post about goldfish, I thought I'd post a separate query about your water test kit in general - is it a liquid-based one? It sounds from the readings as though it is (in which case that's fine). The reason I'm asking, though, is because I find the test strips tend to provide artificially much higher readings for KH and GH and slightly lower readings for PH than the liquid-based kits - I find the test strips accurate for the other tests but not KH and GH and so I thought I'd check with you.
Your water supplier should also have the facility on its website to input your postcode and give you hardness readings; let us know what it says and the unit of measurement (eg degrees Clark, French, German). Between that, and your own water testing results, we'll be able to offer further advice, depending on how you decide to proceed ie the goldfish or tropical route.
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Hi sorry for late reply I work from 2:30 till 11 so its kinda hard to post reply's fast.
I plan to give the goldfish to my brother when I install my heater as he has a pond, later to be a koi pond I believe. If that fails im sure my local store will have him.
The test kit is water based but when I bought it it was covered in dust so iv been testing with strips and the water, the PH KH GH is maxed out on the strips so I believe the water based tests to be accurate. To note the test strips and water ones are both from "Tetra" so I think they both measure in Degrees German.
I added bacteria in a bottle to the tank prior to the goldfish there's also 2 fair sized pieces of wood in there Bogwood and driftwood I believe and 4CM of aquarium sand at the bottom.
Water from supplier:
Hardness:
Your drinking water supply is classified as very hard.
Calcium : 144
Calcium carbonate: 360
Degrees Clark : 25
French: 36
German: 20.5
Millimoles: 3.6
pH (Hydrogen ion) 6.5 - 9.5 with an average of 7.1 through 26 samples (supposedly)??
I am definitely going for tropical fish as they were the reason I bought the tank, had no idea my water was like poison though sux to be me right now :(.
Iv found a supplier of RO water but its like 5 miles away and getting 250l of that is going to be a nightmare. Not sure weather to do a 100% change or find a balance with RO/tap.
When/if I add the water should I take the goldfish out permanently and start a fishless cycle or is it to late for that and leave the fish in?
Also I have a canister filter that says "1000L" per hour, is this enough as I thought it was 4x the volume but now iv seen someone else say 6x the volume minimum.
Just wanted to say thank you all for your time and speedy reply's I massively appreciate the help, researching for 2 weeks alone has been so overwhelming and you guys are making it so much easier.
Thanks!
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Good plan to farm out the goldfish. :)
You can then do a full fishless cycle using your tap water while you're preparing for your fish of choice and preparing a plan for your water. It will be the first fill after cycling that will be the real pain, after that it will just be your water change water.
The hardness is easy to deal with. As you have 20° tap water then a 50:50 mix with RO or rain water will bring that down to 10° which is fine for most tropical fish. It's the pH that is the worry.
I take it from your water parameters that you live in the South East (if you're UK based) and I used to live there, too. However, my tap water had a pH of 8.8 and a GH of 16º German. I used to mix my tap water with rainwater (or RO from my Local Fish Shop if the water butts got empty or too manky) in a 50:50 mix and this gave me tank water of 8º GH with a pH of 7.4
Can I suggest you try a small 50:50 mix of rain water and tap and see what numbers you get?
Can I also suggest that you consider a heavily planted tank with real plants as the benifits they bring will mean less water changes.
We like helping people..... it makes us feel useful! :))
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Colin got there first, but as I'm so slow at typing, I'll post this anyway :D
Leave the goldfish in there till you can rehome it, but monitor your ammonia and nitrite levels daily and do a water change if you do see either creeping up. One small (for the moment!) goldfish won't create that much ammonia and what it does make will easily get lost in 250 litres. Once the goldie goes, then you can continue with a fishless cycle. The goldfish will have started the cycle, and starting is the slowest part. It shouldn't take too long to increase the bacteria numbers.
The two hardness figures to look at from your water company are 20.5 German deg and 360 calcium carbonate. The strips will measure in German deg, also called dH; this is one of the two units used in fishkeeping. The other is ppm or mg/l calcium carbonate, usually called just ppm in fish profiles. It is not a measure of carbonate, merely a way of expressing GH. Water companies mean 'if all the hardness minerals were in the form of calcium carbonate, this is how much calcium carbonate there would be'. And their calcium value is 'if all the hardness was in the form of calcium, this is how much calcium there would be'. My son used to be an analyst at a water testing company and that's how he explained it.
To summarise: when you look at fish profiles, use your water company's German deg figure, and their calcium carbonate figure for ppm.
I do find the difference between their stated pH and your tests interesting, though they do say it varies up to 9.5.
Does the dusty liquid test kit have an expiry date on it? They usually have quite a long life until opened, and it may have just been in a very dusty environment.
With such a big tank, you may find it cheaper to buy your own RO device, though not if you are on a water meter as they waste a lot of water.
Or have you considered Rift Lake cichlids? You could use plain tap water for them. I don't know very much about these fish as I have soft water, but there are a few specialist sites around to look at before deciding.
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I looked for an expire date but I cant find one anywhere so no I don't think so.
100% rainwater was around 7 a bit darker then 7 but lighter then 7.5.
50/50 rainwater was I believe a little less then 8.5 maybe 8.3
The desired PH is 6.8 but that seems impossible right now. will RO water and rainwater yield the same results?
If so I think the plan will be give goldie to my brother then do a massive water change to get it as close to 7 as I can install a heater and buy some pure ammonia and start the cycle again.
I have considered cichlids but my heart is set on angels and plecs :) and I think even cichlids might struggle with a ph of 9.5 no?
Also im not on a meter just paying monthly do they waste water even when not in use or something :S?
Edit: apparently we are on a meter.
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It's up to you, but in general it's far better to stick to fish that suit your water rather than vice versa. You may end up with a tank which needs constant, and potentially expensive, maintenance and even then your fish might suffer. RO water and rainwater will give pretty much the same result, but you use a lot of litres of tap water to make each litre of RO water.
I don't think I've ever heard of tap water with a pH of 9, most Malawi cichlids have a recommended range up to 8.8.
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I, too, am worried about the pH of 9. Can you get some of your tap water tested at your LFS for a second opinion?
The thing about rainwater having a pH of ~7 is that it's completely unbuffered, so you would need to 'build' your water using, for example, this (https://www.kentmarine.com/products/water-care/ro/) to give you the minerals you need in the water, and this (http://) to buffer your water around a neutral value. I've never done this, so you might need to trawl around t'interweb to find more info.
You would also need the associated test kits. The trouble with this is, once you've gone down this path there's no returning..... and for a 250litre tank it might get a bit pricey.
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I have considered cichlids but my heart is set on angels and plecs :)
When I took up tropical fishkeeping, I had no idea about different species of fish being suited to different water parameters. I browsed LFSs and got my heart set on guppies, mollies and platies. After that, I started reading around and realised that they absolutely wouldn't be compatible with my very soft water. I had to take a break and "re-group". Once my heart caught up with (ie came to terms with) the research and advice, I then started browsing the LFSs, only looking at the fish which I had learned were suitable. Yes, I looked at the marine fish and the hard water fish and smiled but knew that they'd be better off elsewhere rather than with my soft water, whereas I spent a lot of time examining the soft water fish tanks, knowing that these fish would thrive in my tank and I could give them a much better (potentially healthier and longer) life.
You could use the time during your fishless cycle to focus in on which fish would be suitable for your water and perhaps you'll find this challenge worth it ie that you've started to develop an affinity for some of these species after all.
:fishy1:
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Since cycling goes faster at higher pH and higher KH I would suggest doing nothing to the water until the cycle is finished. You will have a few weeks to decide exactly what you want to do.
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So i decided to just go with the RO water as the tap water isn't even suitable for most cichlids either and the ones that can stand that water i couldn't find anywhere in the uk that sells them.
Took the goldfish to the shop and gave him to them, emptied the tank and did a 100% change to RO the guys at the shop added the minerals and buffer to the water there and at 3£ for 25 litres + the additives i figured 6£ a week for water changes isn't exactly breaking the bank.
Right now the water is reading:
PH 7 maybe 6.8
KH 6
GH 7
I know you guys wanted me to use tap water but from my perspective it was either this or give up, i would rather at least try the RO. No idea if iv made the right choice i guess ill find out. I know i wasn't suppose to change the water before the cycle was finished but i felt a need to do something about the water before it drove me crazy.
Not sure about the cycle now, can i start the fishless cycle method now or it it too late for that?
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Start the fishless cycle. If there are any bacteria from the goldfish, they'll still be there.
Given the cost of doing large daily water changes, a fish-in cycle is not a realistic option for you.
Once you have fish, make sure you always have some mineralised RO on hand in case of an emergency water change. Even if the fish are fit and healthy it is not unknown for the fishkeeper to accidentally drop a whole tub of food in the tank, or a young visitor to feed the fish something totally inappropriate.
(The way to prevent the first is to measure the food out somewhere not on top of the tank ;) )
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PH 7 maybe 6.8
KH 6
GH 7
I know you guys wanted me to use tap water but from my perspective it was either this or give up, i would rather at least try the RO. No idea if iv made the right choice i guess ill find out. I know i wasn't suppose to change the water before the cycle was finished but i felt a need to do something about the water before it drove me crazy.
Not sure about the cycle now, can i start the fishless cycle method now or it it too late for that?
Excellent. You've made your choice and you're on your way. We didn't specifically want you to use tap water, but we did want you to know what you were letting yourself in for if you went down the RO route.
Keep us up to date with your cycling, and what are your plans for stocking?
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Stocking ideas so far
Plec bristlenose x 4 60cm 23-27dc
Angelfish x3 45cm 24-28dc =183cm 25dc
dwarf neon rainbowfish x10 63cm 22-26dc
Blue grourami x1 15cm 23-28dc
Not quite sure on how many CM i can go up to in a 250 but the calculator says 400cm with an external filter.
Obviously wont be adding all that at once and not till cycled, not sure what to add first tho.
Also to note the PH has risen by .5 overnight no idea how as i have driftwood and sand in there i exspected it to drop to 6.5 6.8 maybe it was because some of the tap water was in the sand mmh.
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The joy of a fishless cycle is you can completely stock once the cycle has finished, you don't have to wait.
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Also to note the PH has risen by .5 overnight no idea how as i have driftwood and sand in there i exspected it to drop to 6.5 6.8 maybe it was because some of the tap water was in the sand mmh.
mmm - patience you must.
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I'll start the ball rolling on the fish wish list.
3 angels is a bad number. You need one, a mated pair or at least 6 with a view to rehoming some if a pair form. And keeping just one isn't really fair on this species.
Angels are incredibly hard to sex until they breed. Buying two, you could end up with a pair that like each other, a pair that hate each other, two males or two females. Angels, like a lot of American cichlids, need to choose their own mates, hence buying six and rehoming four if two pair up.
And if you end up with a mated pair, you could find that the angels will spawn and take over 80% of the tank, leaving the rest of the fish huddled in the remaining 20%
Gouramis and angelfish don't usually make a good combination, especially if the blue is one of the three spot colour variants as these can be nasty fish. Blue dwarf gouramis aren't quite as bad, but still quite nasty for such small fish.
It's either angels or gouramis, not both.
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My tests as of 1 hour ago.
Tank: 8
Tap water : 8
RO water: 7
50/50 RO/water : 7.5
so my tank water is the same as my tap water right now, no idea how the ph is 8 in the tap when 2 days ago it was 9.5. Also no idea how a 50/50 mix is 7.5 and my tank is like 95%5% and at 8.
The tap water that read 9.5 was left out 2 days before testing. the tap iv just tested at 8 is fresh.
Iv taken both pieces of driftwood out and the stone that was in there placed them all in separate buckets filled with 100% RO water also put some fresh dry sand (bought 2 bags ended up using 1.5) in a cup, all were rinced out with RO water to begin with and all reading 7 before and after everything was put in, going to wait a day see if anything changes. :yikes: :yikes: :yikes:
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the 3 angelfish was in hopes to pair 2 and send the other back or re home it i didnt want to get to many right off the bat for ammonia spike purposes.
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If you do a fishless cycle as per the method on here, you can stock almost all your fish in one go once the cycle has finished. The exceptions are some sensitive species which should wait till the tank has been running a few months eg some corydoras species, neon tetras and a few more.
With three angelfish, there is the danger of 2 male 1 female. Once mature, the males will fight over the female and she might not like either of them. Even 1 male 2 females is not good if he doesn't like either female. You might also end up with 3 males or 3 females.
Three is a bad number with aggressive fish. One gets lonely; with two, one can pick on the other; with three, two can pick on one; four is better, if there is one dominant fish, the aggression is spread out among the other three. Five is better still, and six even better.
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Ill try 6 then you have any recommendations about angelfish tank mates? I only chose the gourami because many people say they have them with angels. Also the rainbow fish as angels cant eat them hehe.
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The best tankmates are tetras from south America which are deep bodied (that is, the same shape as rainbowfish). It's the torpedo shaped tetras that are most likely to be eaten. But research any tetras before buying as some are fin nippers, with angels being tempting targets because of their fins. Seriously Fish (http://www.seriouslyfish.com/knowledge-base/) is a good research site.
And cories for the bottom of the tank.
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A large shoal of Rosy Tetras would look spectacular.
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:( so the sand in the glass is reading 8.5 aswell as the tank now. Im losing the will to live lol, gonna empty the tank take out sand and try find some sand that wont change the ph. Anyone know of a brand?
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I use this sand (http://www.aquariumsand.co.uk/) in my 180 and 40 litre tanks, and Unipac silica sand in my betta's tank. Neither of these affect the pH. Lots of people swear by play sand, the most popular being Argos and B & Q.
When you said the sand in the glass of water, was the water the remineralised RO or tap water? And did you leave a glass of just water alongside to compare the glass with sand to? To be sure it is the sand, you need two containers, one with just water and one with water and sand, then you can compare the sand water to non-sand water. That will tell you if the water changes by itself, or if the sand is to blame.
Of course, you may have already done that :)
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The water i tested it in was RO water i also checked the water before the sand went in and right after it went in both read 7. The sand that's in there in unipac silver sand also have some stones and driftwood in buckets filled with RO water, they are both reading 7 and the sand 8.5 so im pretty sure its the sand affecting the PH. Strange how we both have same brand name sand, also strange how its "aquarium" sand yet it raises PH by 1.5 m The bag says nothing on it related to the type of sand or any mention of PH. Not sure if i should complain really raising PH by 1.5 is a joke. :(