Tropical Fish Forum
Tropical Fish Keeping Help and Advice => New Fishkeepers => Topic started by: Pawel on June 04, 2014, 12:13:29 AM
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Hello everyone, my first post to this forum. :)
I set up my first aquarium, a 45 litre one 3 months ago and had been running it very successfully since. I love it ad my family loves it. See the picture. So we want more fish and upgrading to a 180 litre tank - a Juwel Rio 180 I picked up second hand on eBay. Now I need to cycle the new tank and want relocate the residents with minimum fuss. So I have a few questions.
The current tanks has got gravel, live plants and a piece of bogwood. The filter is internal with one piece of sponge, see picture. The current inhabitants are 8 cardinal tetras, 4 guppies, 2 platies, 1 dwarf chain loach (I will add more after the move to a bigger tank) and a population of snails. I want to move as many things over as I can, but I’m keen to leave the nuisance snails behind!
So I'm thinking of not moving the plants or the gravel, as I don't want to transfer any snails or snail eggs in the process.
1. Is it OK to move the bogwood, after giving it a good bathing it in hot water?
2. Can I use the filter media from the old filter, which would have allowed me to move my fish all at once, or is there a risk or moving the snails over?
3. Can I move the water from the old tank or does the same risk exist?
If I can't move the filter, then I guess I'll just cycle the new tank as I would with a new tank and move my fish gradually.
Any advice would be most appreciated.
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Hi, welcome :wave:
If you want to be totally sure about no snails, then the best thing would be to cycle the new tank without using any media from the old tank.
Soaking the bogwood in hot (not boiling) water should help. Leaving it soaking in a bucket for several days should allow any eggs to hatch and you should be able to see them in the bucket. Don't use boiling water as that breaks down the fibres in the wood and allows it to start falling apart earlier than it would otherwise.
There shouldn't be any snails in the water, or eggs for that matter.
Overfeeding the fish is the main cause of too many snails, though cutting down on feeding won't get rid of them all, just slow down the rate at which they breed.
What kind of snails do you have? I've found that my dwarf chain loaches do eat those tiny flat spirals (a type of ramshorn). I once caught one of them swimming round with a snail shell on its nose, trying to winkle the snail out.
I gave up trying to get rid of the tiny ramshorns years ago. There are some in all my tanks, even the one with the loaches though not as many in that tank.
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Thanks for advice Sue.
I try not to overfeed the fish, as I read about dangers of doing that time and time again, so I hope that's not the contributing factor here.
My snails look like Bladder snail variety and I got the Dwarf Chain Loach hoping it will help to keep their population down. I think he does eat them as I haven't got a massive numbers, although I keep watching him and noticed him rummaging around gravel I have never seen him eat a snail. I wonder if he feeds on them at night.
Reading what you said about giving up the fight and reading other posts about snails made me think that trying to get rid of them might be a lost battle anyway. If I do manage to move to the new tank and not carry them over, chances are they'll arrive on a the next plant from the aquatics shop.
I wonder if there are lots of people who manage to keep their tanks snail free.
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i had a few come in on my new plants but i have to say i have not seen any in weeks but i do know my clown loaches was feeding on them so i am guessing they have all but wiped them out in my tank at least for the time being.
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But just to warn you Pawel, 180 litres isn't big enough for clown loaches, so don't be tempted ;)
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opps sorry i should of added that in :vcross: me
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Sounds like a fish I was looking for! and they do look nice. If I could hire one hungry Clown Loach for a day. ;)
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Just had a thought. I should have thought of it earlier. Assassin snails (http://www.thinkfish.co.uk/fish/assassin-snail.html). I know it sounds wrong adding more snails but these eat other snails. They do reproduce but not as fast as pest snails (in theory!) and have the advantage that they are quite in demand if you do get a lot of them.
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Assassin snails are deadly...
(http://www.vehiclehi.com/thumbnails/detail/20121031/war%20tanks%20gas%20masks%20missiles%20snail%201280x800%20wallpaper_www.vehiclehi.com_10.jpg)
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lol colin its snail warfare ;D
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Nice species Colin! :D
Interesting idea about Assassin snails, but a little worried about swapping one snail colony for another. Would it work at all if I add just one Assassin snail? Do you think he'll be effective and would he still reproduce?
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Assassins have separate sexes, unlike some other types of snail, and therefore require a male and female to produce young. So yes, just one won't get you overrun with them but it may take a long time for 1 assassin to eat all the pest snails, which will probably breed faster than they are eaten.
Details about assassins (http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ca/volume_6/volume_6_4/clea.html)
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Thanks for clarifying and for the link Sue.
I was going to say that a squad of male assassins would be the perfect solution! But reading about them and that you can't tell the difference between the male and female quashed that idea. :)
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Sorry to be a downer but my folks have employed (figuratively) assassin snails to tackle their pest snail problem and they have been pretty ineffective so far. That said, they did only get 2 originally and they have since started breeding so hopefully the increased numbers should start to make a difference.
Interesting idea about Assassin snails, but a little worried about swapping one snail colony for another.
I wouldn't worry too much about breeding assassin snails however as they are very much saleable (unlike pest snails). They can be quite expensive to buy in fish shops at anything up to £5 each and I would imagine you could ask £1-2 selling privately.
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Thanks for the advice dbaggie, sounds like unless you have a bigger loaches, other methods may or may not work. I'll guess I'll just see what happens. If I do get snails in the new tank I'll think about it then, either get more dwarf chain loaches or assassin snails and as you say, if they get too many, pass them on to other suffering fish keepers!
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Snail lovers - look away now!
There is always the 'squash 'em and feed 'em to the fish approach! My guppies love them.
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Snail lovers - look away now!
There is always the 'squash 'em and feed 'em to the fish approach! My guppies love them.
:rotfl:
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Thanks for all advice.
I have decided not to worry about snails too much (I've seen the same bladder snails sold on eBay - might be a business for me there! ;-) ) and want to use the filter media from the old tank and move it to the new one, together with fish. The easiest thing would be to move the whole filter as I can just hook it on the inside wall and have it running alongside the new one for some time. Is that OK, or moving filter media to new filter is better? How long should I have both filters running alongside? Is there anything I should be aware of?
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The better way is to put the old media inside the new filter, leaving out some new media to make space for the old. The filter bacteria don't just migrate to the new filter. If you put the whole old filter in the new tank, they'll just stay in the old filter. if you get more fish, the bioload will increase so the amount of bacteria will increase to cope with it, but they may or may not set up home in the new filter. The bacteria will colonise the new media better if it is physical contact with the old. Yes, you will lose the bacteria that were growing on the old filter casing, but they will only be a small proportion of the total.
Once the new filter has been running a couple of months with the old media inside, you can start replacing the old with the media that comes with the new filter a bit at a time with several weeks between each batch. Or just leave the old in there.
If you want to do it by running both filters, wait at least 2 months before removing the old, then keep an eye on the ammonia and nitrite levels for several days; do a water change if you see either of them showing up.
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If you want to do it by running both filters, wait at least 2 months before removing the old, then keep an eye on the ammonia and nitrite levels for several days; do a water change if you see either of them showing up.
Rather than just hoicking the old filter and its media out in one wholesale act of bacteriacide, the better bet would be to remove, say a quarter of the media. Leave for a few days and repeat. This should give the colony in the new filter more chance to adjust to the change in bioload than the all-in-one blitzkrieg attack. Remember, it's the filter, and especially its media, that we are cycling when we talk about cycling a tank.
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Thank you both for explaining and suggestions, it makes sense. I think I'll transfer the whole filter over to new tank to speed up the move process. I'll run both filters alongside for a couple of weeks then move the filter media to the new filter. Where should I place the media in the new filter, in place of the coarse sponge? Here is what I have:
1. Poly pad
2. Carbon sponge
3. Nitrax
4. Coarse sponge
5. Cirax
6. Fine sponge x 2
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The carbon pad is not needed; that is the best media to replace. Keep the carbon sponge in the cupboard in case you ever need it. And since it comes just after the white pad in the direction of water flow, that place is perfect for washing any loosened bacteria into the new media.
If you need more space for the old media, replace one of the fine sponges, but move things down a bit so you have one fine sponge on the bottom, then the cirax, then some old media, then the coarse sponge, then the green sponge, then more old media, lastly the white pad.
The white pad will block quickly. Juwel are unusual in having it first in the water flow; this is to catch any big bits of debris to stop it getting to the sponges. It will only wash a couple of times before falling apart. Juwel pads are expensive, so buy a roll of filter wool and use a pad as a template to cut it up.
The green sponge is supposed to remove nitrate, only it doesn't. Treat it like a blue sponge.
Blue sponges of both types (and the green one) - the instructions say to replace them every few months. Don't. Just squeeze them in the water you take out during a water change.
Cirax - just swoosh the box in old tank water.
Carbon is only needed to remove medication after treatment has finished and to remove the brown colour that comes out of wood if you don't like it. It is cheaper to buy a box of carbon granules and a fine mesh bag rather than buy black sponges if you do need to use carbon. I use net fabric for a bag.
I had a Juwel Rio 125 till January this year :)
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I like to have these little Physalis snails in all of my tanks. Whenever I do a water change, I "vacuum" the gravel, but there's never anything to vacuum up, even after 4 or 5 weeks. I feed my fish well, more than most people I think, but the snails are pretty effective at cleaning up solid waste. I do believe you get less problems the more complex the ecosystem in your tank i.e. fish, plants, various bacteria, snails, even algae (to a certain extent). More complex systems are always less prone to sudden change.
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Keep the carbon sponge in the cupboard in case you ever need it.
I've previously been advised to keep carbon sponge in a sealed plastic bag when not in use - unsure whether this is good advice or not?
Juwel pads are expensive, so buy a roll of filter wool and use a pad as a template to cut it up.
Some lfs sell pond filter pad packs which are basically huge filter wool pads - I bought a good size one the other day for £4.99 and have calculated that I should get around 30+ individual filter wool pads out of it for my Juwel filter (which looks to be exactly the same as yours). Much better than paying through the ear for official Juwel filter pads as Sue says.
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Keep the carbon sponge in the cupboard in case you ever need it.
I've previously been advised to keep carbon sponge in a sealed plastic bag when not in use - unsure whether this is good advice or not?
I suppose the carbon could adsorb airborne things if it's left out of a bag. My carbon granules came in a plastic tub with a lid, so that'll keep mine away from the air.
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Some lfs sell pond filter pad packs which are basically huge filter wool pads - I bought a good size one the other day for £4.99 and have calculated that I should get around 30+ individual filter wool pads out of it for my Juwel filter (which looks to be exactly the same as yours). Much better than paying through the ear for official Juwel filter pads as Sue says.
Yes I bought some juwel filter floss pads for three quid a couple of weeks ago, and today bought a 'small' pad of pond filter wool for £2.70 which was about twelve times the size of the juwel pads.
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So much useful advice! I rather spend the money on the fish and plants then on swapping the sponges.
As I've got the carbon sponge running for a week now, I think I may as well run it for a month. I heard somewhere that once you activate it by immersing in water it will work for this period of time then stop or start releasing back the chemicals it absorbed. I've got two more sponges so I'll keep them to the side and use when needed.
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I do believe you get less problems the more complex the ecosystem in your tank i.e. fish, plants, various bacteria, snails, even algae (to a certain extent). More complex systems are always less prone to sudden change.
Good point about creating a complex ecosystem. Thanks Richard.
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There are a lot of myths about carbon.
It adsorbs (not absorbs) by covalent bonding. Adsorb means things attach to the surface only, while absorb means they penetrate inside. Carbon doesn't form ionic bonds so it doesn't remove ions like nitrite, nitrate or ammonium - and the majority of the ammonia in the tank is in the ammonium form. Carbon mainly adsorbs organic chemicals, such as medication and tannins from wood, though it will also adsorb such things as hormones secreted by the fish and even plants.
It doesn't release chemicals wholesale into the tank. When it adsorbs things, there is always some left in the water. There is an equilibrium between the bound and the free. If the equilibrium is disturbed the chemical will move on or off the carbon to restore the equilibrium. So removing medication, it will bind to the carbon but some will be left free in the water. You do a water change and remove some of the free so some has to come off the carbon back into the water to restore the equilibrium. That's why the carbon should be thrown away a couple of days after using it to remove meds. Also, using several smaller batches, changed every day, will remove more of the med.
Some things are more strongly bound to carbon than others. Although carbon becomes 'full' within a few days to a couple of weeks, if a medication binds more strongly to the carbon it will push off whatever is already on there and stick in its place. This does two things - it removes the med from the water and it releases possible toxins back into the water.
The reason so many filters include carbon is a hangover from decades past. Then, the nitrogen cycle was not understood. And fishkeepers rarely did water changes, which resulted in the water turning yellow. These fishkeepers did not like yellow water so they used carbon to remove it. That's all filters were back then, an air powered box filter containing carbon granules and a bit of filter wool to stop the fish poo etc getting into the carbon. Because the carbon got full and the water started turning yellow again, they had to change the carbon regularly so that no bacteria cultures had time to grow on the carbon, though there would have been some on the other surfaces in the tank.
We now know about the nitrogen cycle and have filters which provide homes for the bacteria. We now know that regular water changes are good for the fish. But carbon is cheap to produce, it has to be changed regularly and filter manufacturers have a nice little earner, so why stop putting it in the filter packaging?
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Thank you Sue, very informative. I guess carbon may also be useful to remove yellow tint from the bogwood.
I moved my fish now, all look happy in the new place. Chain loach turned a bit pale and red after the move, he must have stressed out a bit, poor thing, but he is back to his normal black and white self now :p
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That's good news. Nice one!
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Thanks Colin. Forgot to mention so far no snails in sight! C:-)