Moved To A Hard Water Area

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Offline 2nd_bassoon

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Moved to a hard water area
« on: January 16, 2018, 11:24:39 PM »
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Hello all,

I have a Fluval 125 tank that, for a couple of years, had a nicely stable and established community.  A fairly rough 2017 (housemoves, job changes etc) meant it was moved around quite a lot and basically neglected, to my shame.  Things have now settled back down again, and I want to get back on track.  I sadly lost some of the fish during the moves last year and am now left with 2X cardinals, 3X bronze corys and the plec.  I want to build the community back up again, but I'm now living in a completely different water area (Bristol) compared to previous, and I'm not really sure where to start.

I set the tank up in what will definitely be it's permenant home for the foreseeable future yesterday.  Today's API (master kit) results are:
Ammonia 1.0 ppm
Nitrite 0ppm
Nitrate 200ppm

The pH in the tank is 7.6 today, and I know my supply is hard (used to be a soft water supply). 

I'm hoping the ammonia will settle with partial water changes over the next few weeks, but my bigger worry is how to manage the tank more long term.  Originally my plan was to go back up to similar to what I had before - I loved the tetra shoals, and I had a pair of golden rams I was particularly fond of - but some reading tonight makes me think they wouldn't be suitable anymore. 

I guess my questions are twofold:
(a) Do I keep the current fish as they are until they head for the big fishtank in the sky? Realistically I don't think I can move them to a better water environment, it will be the same hardness anywhere nearby.  I feel bad, especially for the lonely tetras, but at the same time I don't want to add a larger shoal of the same if they're not going to cope with it - unless that is the lesser of the two evils?
(b) What fish would you recommend for a small, interesting community tank who would tolerate this area?  Obviously not until the ammonia has settled back down again, but I would like to build the tank back up again.

Many thanks for reading!

Offline Matt

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Re: Moved to a hard water area
« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2018, 07:25:15 AM »
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Your ammonia and nigrate levels really need adressing straight away through daily 50% water changes. The current levels are very dangerous for your remaining fish. 

Which tetra species do you have? Most tetra will likely have no problem with your harder water.

@Littlefish lives in a hard water area and so will be well placed to advise on other suitable species. 

I'm afraid your rams won't get on well with your new water but... There is another option. You could use partially RO water from your LFS (or you can get a unit to make it at home) when you do water  changes to bring the hardness in your tank down.  It's a fair commitment to make so do a little research into it and see what you think.

Offline Sue

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Re: Moved to a hard water area
« Reply #2 on: January 17, 2018, 09:39:16 AM »
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Welcome to the forum  :wave:

I agree with Matt. Not only do you need to get ammonia to zero, but nitrate should be below 20 ppm - though if your tap water nitrate is above that you won't be able to get it below tap level with water changes.
Lots of water changes are needed right now - they will lower both ammonia and nitrate, but even if ammonia stays at zero, keep on with the changes till nitrate is the same as your tap water.

Going forward, your remaining fish will not be happy in your new tap water. Your choice is between using RO or different fish.
Should you choose RO and soft water fish you will need to use exactly the same RO:tap water ratio at every water change, and make sure you have some RO on hand at all times in case the need for an emergency water change arises.

Offline Rustle

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Re: Moved to a hard water area
« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2018, 11:11:29 AM »
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Hmm I use bristol water as I am not that far from you being in Burnham on sea area. I am not sure if the hardness is will be the same or the nitrate but we have a highish nitrate around 15 to 20 in ours.

Sue advised me to check bristol water website for hardness in your area and then helped me when I copied and pasted it.

A Selection of Fish in my Fish Community Creator Tanks
Cherry Barb (6) - Neon Tetra (7) - Harlequin Rasbora (11) - Honey Gourami (2) - Guppy (male) (3) - Otocinclus (5) - Japonica Shrimp (8) -
Note: The user may not necessarily own these fish, these are tanks that they may be building or researching for stocking purposes


Offline Littlefish

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Re: Moved to a hard water area
« Reply #4 on: January 17, 2018, 12:16:53 PM »
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Hi there and welcome to the forum.  :wave:
Yes, check the figures for the water parameters on your suppliers website and let us know.
My cousin lived in Bristol (with a fish tank) prior to his move, and his water was around 12dH, so your water isn't as hard as mine. I live in Cambridge, which is a hard water area (17dh), and there are lots of great fish available that are suitable. However, if your water is around 12dh you might be in an ideal position, you lucky thing.  ;D


Offline 2nd_bassoon

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Re: Moved to a hard water area
« Reply #5 on: January 17, 2018, 12:55:49 PM »
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Thanks all for the quick replies  :) I did a 30% water change after the above readings last night, will do 50% tonight and also check nitrates in the tapwater.

Offline 2nd_bassoon

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Re: Moved to a hard water area
« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2018, 10:17:56 PM »
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Re-reading my original post, I've spotted a fairly crucial typo...the nitrate readings yesterday were 20ppm, not 200ppm  :vcross:

My tap water is coming out somewhere between 0-5ppm on the colour chart - so about 3ish I guess?!

According to the Bristol water website the supply breakdown is:
Calcium mg/l Ca    71
Magnesium mg/ Mg    9.0
Total Hardness mg/l CaCO3    214
UK Degrees Clark (°C)    15
Degrees French (°f)    21
Degrees German (°dH)    13

Which I freely admit is all french to me!

Offline Matt

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Re: Moved to a hard water area
« Reply #7 on: January 17, 2018, 10:24:25 PM »
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Re-reading my original post, I've spotted a fairly crucial typo...the nitrate readings yesterday were 20ppm, not 200ppm  :vcross:

Wow that is good news!! What is your ammonia reading now following the water changes? Watch out for a spike in nitrite and nitrate following the ammonia spike.  Something has happened to your filter bacteria in the various moves but hopefully things will settle down soon as the tank is established and lightly stocked.

You can take a look at the fish profiles on this website which provide an idea as to fishes preferred hardness range.  These can then be checked more accurately on the seriouslyfish.com website using he numbers you have posted to determine their suitability for your water parameters.  Your water is hard but not very hard.

See this thread about what all the various units mean:
https://forums.thinkfish.co.uk/new-fishkeepers/water-hardness-units/msg37472/?topicseen#new

Offline Littlefish

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Re: Moved to a hard water area
« Reply #8 on: January 17, 2018, 10:53:12 PM »
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13dh gives you a lot of scope with fish.  ;D
Have a look at the profiles here, and check http://www.seriouslyfish.com/ which will cover a wider range of fish and provide further information.
If you look at several sources of information you may find some overlapping or contradictory information, though Seriously Fish is used by a lot of people here as a good resource.


Offline Sue

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Re: Moved to a hard water area
« Reply #9 on: January 18, 2018, 09:02:29 AM »
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Fish profiles use one of two units - dH (the same as German degrees) and ppm (the same as mg/l CaCO3). The numbers you need to bear in mind when researching fish are 13 dH and 214 ppm.

Good news on the nitrate  :) [The reason that none of questioned it is that nitrate can get very high in a neglected tank and you did admit that yours was neglected  ;) ]

Offline 2nd_bassoon

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Re: Moved to a hard water area
« Reply #10 on: January 20, 2018, 03:28:36 PM »
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Ammonia has come down to 0.25ppm over the last few days, so getting there!  Today nitrate has spiked slightly - 40ppm this morning - which I'm assuming is in reponse to the higher ammonia earlier in the week, but fingers crossed water changes are allowing everything to stabilise...

I've started to look into suitable species to build up the community again.  I currently have one rummynose and two cardinal tetras; reading round it doesn't sound like they are the best options for the water here, so I won't build their numbers up again.  Currently considering some combination or penguin, black phantom tetras or blood fin tetras, or cherry barbs, as alternative smaller shoaling options. 

I'm also quite taken with the look of celestial pearl or glowlight danios, but there seems to be a lot of contradictory information about water preferences for those?

I am, however, getting a bit stuck on replacements for my rams, who were the feature of the old tank.  I like the idea of having a small group (2-4ish) of slightly larger "focus" fish.  I've been discovering rainbowfish for the first time, which look brilliant, and water-appropriate, but I don't think my tank is big enough to keep them in the numbers they are happiest with.  Any suggestions of rainbows that prefer smaller groups, or other ideas for hard water-loving centrepoints? 

Offline fcmf

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Re: Moved to a hard water area
« Reply #11 on: January 20, 2018, 03:54:47 PM »
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I'm also quite taken with the look of celestial pearl or glowlight danios, but there seems to be a lot of contradictory information about water preferences for those?
I've been discovering rainbowfish for the first time, which look brilliant, and water-appropriate, but I don't think my tank is big enough to keep them in the numbers they are happiest with.  Any suggestions of rainbows that prefer smaller groups, or other ideas for hard water-loving centrepoints?
Sources on the internet are indeed very contradictory but, if you use seriouslyfish.com for celestial pearl and glowlight danios' requirements, that should keep you right.
How about the lovely dwarf neon rainbowfish? http://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/melanotaenia-praecox/

Offline Sue

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Re: Moved to a hard water area
« Reply #12 on: January 20, 2018, 04:45:02 PM »
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The problem is that most small fish are shoaling fish that need groups of 6 as the minimum with more being better.
A group of 6 to 8 dwarf rainbowfish would indeed work for both hardness and tank size, but it doesn't like bright overhead light so floating plants are a good idea with this species. They don't look much in shop tanks because they are quite stressed but once they settle in they will brighten up nicely.

Offline Matt

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Re: Moved to a hard water area
« Reply #13 on: January 20, 2018, 07:02:31 PM »
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How about a few gourami?

Offline Sue

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Re: Moved to a hard water area
« Reply #14 on: January 20, 2018, 07:12:28 PM »
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In a 125 litre tank the only suitable gouramis are honeys, dwarfs and sparkling. The hardness is too high for sparkling, and right at the top of the range for honeys and dwarfs. I wouldn't recommend dwarfs because of dwarf gourami iridovirus which leaves just honeys, though I'd prefer to see them in slightly softer water.

Offline 2nd_bassoon

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Re: Moved to a hard water area
« Reply #15 on: January 20, 2018, 09:49:43 PM »
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I do like the look of the dwarf rainbows, but worry re space - ~7cm full size and a minimum of 6-8 fish in a group feels like it might get crowded in 125l? 

I'd ruled out gouramis both on an environmental front, and also, I have to confess, just not really finding them that appealing to look at.  I'm aware that's an unpopular opinion! 

This is why I loved the rams; a pair of small/medium-sized, striking fish.  Will have to keep looking!

Offline 2nd_bassoon

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Re: Moved to a hard water area
« Reply #16 on: February 05, 2018, 09:52:55 PM »
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Thanks everyone for your help and suggestions last month.  Water levels have settled back down - 0 ammonia consistantly now - and I've been researching my fish options.  Leaning towards some variation on:

6 Cherry Barbs
6-8 Black phantom tetra
6-8 Celestial pearl danio
3 Bronze Corys (existing tank members)
2 Umberella cichlids

The tank planner seems happy with this combination, and it puts the tank at around 80% stocked if I go for the whole lot - plan would be to build up over time and see how things settle in though. 

What do people think?  Any obvious flaws or suggestions for alterations?

Offline Sue

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Re: Moved to a hard water area
« Reply #17 on: February 06, 2018, 10:28:32 AM »
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Looking back at your hardness (214 ppm and 13 dH), not all the fish on your list will be happy.

Cherry barbs, bronze cories and celestial pearl danios are all fine at your hardness. I would increase the number of CPDs though as they do much better in a larger shoal. They are so small that an extra 4 or 5 won't impact the bioload significantly. And if you like bronze cories, I would get 3 more. And cherry barbs - with 6 get 2 males 4 females, or maybe push it to 3 males 4 females.

214 dH is at the extreme top edge of black phantom's range; it is better to keep fish in the middle of their range. Is there another shoaling fish that would be an acceptable substitute?

Seriously Fish says that Apistogramma borellii is OK up to 268 ppm hardness, which does surprise me! The main problem you'll have is finding them. Apistogramma cacatuoides (cockatoo cichlid) is also OK in your hardness and is a lot more common in shops if you can't source any borelliis.
I would add whichever species of apisto last to make sure the tank has settled. And when you go to the shop stand quietly in front of the tank till they forget you are there. This could be over 15 minutes! The males should be easy to spot. Their fins are different and they'll be the ones pushing at the other males. If any male allows a female to remain near him, they are more likely to be a pair - get them. it does help if you take someone with you so they can go and find as assistant while you keep your eyes on your chosen fish.

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