Tropical Fish Forum
Tropical Fish Keeping Help and Advice => New Fishkeepers => Topic started by: Mervyn on October 31, 2012, 11:06:07 AM
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Hi,
I mad a visit to our well known Aquatic Store yesterday and noticed that they were selling live bacteria!
Would buying some be benificial to help cycle a tank or is it best left alone?
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You've hit on a very controversial point ;D
I'll give you a quick history lesson if I may. When the first of these products came out, they used the wrong species of nitrite eating bacteria (different species grow in the wild and ourtanks). And by the time they were purchased, the bacteria were all dead, having starved or asphyxiated in a bottle with no food or air. Then a man called Timothy Havoncec did some research and discovered the species of bacteria that does grow in aquarium filters. His company produced a bacteria product that did work, though as it had to be kept refrigerated constantly, it didn't work all the time - it was often allowed to warm up somewhere on the journey between the factory and the aquarium. Because it had a very short shelf life, not many shops stocked it. Then Havonec left the company and appears to have taken his patents with him (though how they were in his name not the company's I don't know) and the company had to change the formula to one that no longer worked properly.
Havonec now makes his own bottled bacteria in the USA, which isn't much help to those of us in the UK. Other companies have done a lot of research and they've come up with ways to keep the bacteria alive in the bottle.
But do they work? For the most part, no. Some do help with the ammonia eating bacteria but not with the nitrite eaters. And the ones that do have an effect do not do it consistantly. For every person who says it worked in his tank you'll find another who says it did nothing. It seems the best you can hope for with these product is that they'll speed the cycle up rather than do it instantly. The product on the market that has the most claims for speeding things up is API quick start, but a lot of other people have found no effect.
So in answer to your question - if you don't mind spending your money on something that may or may not work, try one. But use it to help speed up your fishless cycle rather than assuming it will work instantly and get fish. You might be pleasantly surprised ;D
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Thanks Sue but I do not think I made myself very clear. The live bacteria was being sold in small plastic bags with air in them (like when you purchase live plants or fish).
I did not look very closely at it or ask about it but there were not many of this little puffed out bags which were kept in a very small cabinet in "cells" so one bag to each cell.
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What exactly was in the bags, just water or was there something in the water? I've not come across any of my local shops selling things like that.
If they are selling water from tanks with cycled filters that will do virtually nothing to help cycle a new filter. There are very very few of the filter bacteria free in water. They grow in the biofilm which is tightly bound to sufaces. This is how we can wash the filter media without losing the bacteria. The only reason we have to use old tank water to do the washing is that chlorine or chloramine in tapwater will kill the bacteria.
If there was something in the bags, it could well be mature media from their filtration system. This would be very useful as it is a guaranteed way of speeding up a cycle, unless it had been left in the bags too long. Maybe that's why there were only a few bags so they'd get sold before the bacteria in them died off.
I would go back to the shop or ring them and ask them what's in the bags. If it is mature media, get some straight away, bring it home asap and put it in your filter. Replace the carbon sponge with it :D So long as mature media is treated like a fish, ie kept in water with an air supply, it will seed your filter cutting down cycling time considerably. In fact, with enough mature media it is possible to instantly cycle a tank - this is what I do when setting up a quarantine tank for newly purchased fish, I steal some media from one of my mature tanks. I wouldn't risk that with purchased media though, just in case it's been in the bag a while. But it could see your filter cycled in a few days rather than weeks. But you would need to leave any mature media in the filter for a month or so after the filter cycled to make sure enough bacteria had grown in the rest of the media.
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Hi Sue,
Do not know what actually was in the bags. The wife just pointed them out to me.
I am going to the shop this weekend or sooner, to get some more moss balls and some coconut caves etc. Will have a look then.
You have me desperate to get there and have a look :-\ I will try and hold off, but may go there in the morning even.... Imay even be waiting at the door for them to open ;D
But as you say if it is old media I will be certain to ask how long the bags have been there.
Without naming the shop it is part of a large chain and it is a large shop and it just happens to be the largest on at 30,000 sq ft. ;)
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I can think of 2 chains - one sells things for every pet you can imagine, the other specialises in fish, and often has outlets in garden centres. Selling mature media is the kind of thing I could imagine the second one doing. If it's the first, I wouldn't be surprised if it was just water. Some branches of the 'all pets store' have a very bad reputation for uninformed/badly informed staff!
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The one I am talking about is only fish and they do ponds,koi and water garden stuff, begins with an M. ;)
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If it sounds like it should be located in a town in Berkshire, it might well be mature media. Most of the chain stores have a manager who has some leeway in what they can sell, and these managers do seem to have a bit more knowledge about fish than other chains.
OK I'll say it, I'm not criticising anyone by name which is the problem for forums (one non-fish company sued a forum owner because of bad comments) but if it's Maidenhead Aquatics you might, just might, be in luck ;D
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Spot on ;D!!!
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My local branch of MA sells live food in little puffed up bags, that look a bit like cells. I have seen brine shrimp, blood worms, daphnia and occasionally things I don't recognise. But they don't appear to have a very long shelf life and it is better to buy them within a couple days of being delivered to the shop (imho). I'd have a guess that any 'live media' would be similar.
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My MA sells the live food too. As long as its refrigerated its last quite well, mines good for a week with minimal loss. I have never seen the bags of culture though but i dont think it would be that long lived either.
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I have heard of the odd shop that does sell bits of filter media, though not shops that pre-pack it. But you never know what any particular shop might decide to do, and the individual branches of chains have managers who do have freedom to sell things in their own branch. That's why I think Mervyn should investigate what exactly his MA is selling; you never know, it might possibly be mature media.
Mervyn - do you know anyone who has a tank? Media from their filter would work just as well.
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I have heard of the odd shop that does sell bits of filter media, though not shops that pre-pack it. But you never know what any particular shop might decide to do, and the individual branches of chains have managers who do have freedom to sell things in their own branch. That's why I think Mervyn should investigate what exactly his MA is selling; you never know, it might possibly be mature media.
Mervyn - do you know anyone who has a tank? Media from their filter would work just as well.
Hi, I am going to my local MA today or tomorrow, but it may be a thing they only do for weekend sales, so if I see nothing there I will ask.
The only other person I know is my 31yr old upstairs ::) but he is cycling his tank as well.
Just to add he has a 180L tank up there and it is positioned above where my wife sits :o but don't worry I have sorted the insurance papers out ;D
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You'll have to be careful - my sons are 32 and 30, and they'd probably try to "borrow" any mature media I managed to find ;D
That reminds me, the older one still has our wheelbarrow.......
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On a more serious note, your son's tank - it it positioned so the weight runs across the floor supporting beams or in the same direction? The question of tanks in upstairs rooms comes up quite a lot on another forum I'm a member of, and the opinion there is to put it on a thick board and have the tank running across the beams so they can take the weight rather than just the floorboards between the beams.
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Yep half of my tools are around the country somewhere from my 41yr
old down to my 19yr old Grandson. I tell them it has a return label and when I ask for it back they all say the same thing....."I am sure I gave it back to you!!!"
The Tank runs across the beams. It is also in a corner adjascent to two load bearing walls and a further precaution it is situated on a 1/2" thick wooden board 4' wide by 6' long to spread the load. ;D
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That sounds like you know what you are doing :)
Just thought better safe than sorry, especially with your wife being underneath the tank ;D
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Well that solves that problem!!! The do have live bacteria but...........it is marine bacteria :(
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That's a pity. It was worth try.
It looks like you're stuck with the slow way.
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[quoteI have seen brine shrimp, blood worms, daphnia][/quote]
id suspect that its more likley that this is what you have seen here but id be interested to find out.
Id would seem good business for retailers to offer to sell mature media from their systems but ive never heard of it happening.
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I'm new to this forum so Hello. I was interested in the topic of Bacteria as I recently did a little experiment myself only to find out I was wasting my time.
What I did was Froze some established bacteria for just over a week then put it in a test tank to see if it would still be active once thawed out, well it wasn't. I did more research and found an interesting article about the temperature ranges of bacteria to thrive and anything below 64f/18c the growth rate reduces by 50% and dies at 32f/0c and above 120f/49c it dies.
I read the comments above about Dr Timothy Hovanec and this obviously made me look more at his work, on another forum someone sent me this link: http://goo.gl/y3yEU be warned it is a long audio of one of his talks and I found it very interesting as I'm sure a few here will.
One thing he said during the talk and this is where I got a bit worried, he talked more on Coral type systems but he did say something about having zero Nitrates. Noe recently I got my tanks to register using liquid test kits 0-Ammonia, 0-Nitrite and 0-Nitrate. I thought the Nitrate was odd so I did more searching and I found threads on other forums where some said it was wrong and some said the system must be exceptional clean.
Now going back the what Timothy's talk he said if Nitrates are 0 then it is very rare and something is about to crash, at least that is what I understood him to say so now I'm worried.
I would be interested to hear your thoughts.
Col.
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Hi Col, I've been following your thread in the scientific section of 'another forum' ;D I'm essjay on there. To be totally honest with you, I haven't read it recently with all the problems with google, I've almost given up trying to get on that site.
My understanding is that a nitrate of zero is unusual in a freshwater tank, though it is something marine tank (http://www.thinkfish.co.uk/marines/cost) keepers strive for - though not being into marine tank (http://www.thinkfish.co.uk/marines/cost)s, I'm not 100% sure that's correct.
In a freshwater tank with a mature filter, nitrate is constantly being produced. Plants will remove it, but you have to have a lot of plants to remove all of it. I think what the comment about zero nitrate being rare and something is about to crash means that if the nitrate is zero, it must not be being made therefore something is wrong nearer the beginning of the nitrogen cycle - maybe all the ammonia or nitrite eaters have died.
I did wonder what "exceptionally clean" means - even if every scrap of waste is removed, nitrate would still be produced so they can't have meant that. I suppose if you did very regular, very large water changes with zero nitrate water it would be possible to keep the tank at zero, but that would be a lot of hard work.
I see from the rival site that you have zero tap nitrate and are heavily planted, so in theory for you a tank nitrate of zero is possible. I'm not very good with plants (on the old Thinkfish forum I was famous for being able to kill duckweed ;D ) so I'm not sure what the implications of zero nitrate are for plants.
If you are worried about the implications of your tank nitrate ("something is about to crash") then checking your ammonia and nitrite on a regular, ie daily, basis should reassure you that if something is going wrong you'll catch it straight away. As for the plants needing nitrate, I'll have to leave that for someone more green fingered to answer.
One thing I will say - my son worked for several years for a water testing company and he is highly amused at us trying to accurately measure nitrate with a home testing kit. The company he worked for used very expensive lab equipment to measure nitrate. He reckoned our kits are incapable of giving a result anywhere near accurate.
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Hi Sue, pleased to meet you, though we have met before lol.
My tank/s are not heavily planted, I too have problems with them, I have a skill of killing plastic plants (joking).
I do have a few in my tanks but some are falling apart, I recently took a couple out in fact.
I am not well up on marine systems so Timothy's remarks might have been more directed to those.
Just for the sake of anyone reading this thread, I did the freezing test hoping to keep mature bacteria for a later date or to help someone setup a new tank rather than the posts we read of cycling problems and more so fish deaths.
On the subject of Timothy Hovanec (Dr Timms) I ordered some of his 'One and Only' formula that supposed to be an instant tank start, it hasn't arrived yet as it is coming from the USA, so obviously I'll keep you updated.
The thing is with this guy, listening to him talk and all the letters and credentials after his name he isn't a crank so that makes me interested.
Col.
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Hi Col,
If you have very low nitrates in your tap water, I would suggest that this might be why you are having problems with live plants.
I have quite a heavily planted tank, and every time I have measured my tap water, it has always had <5ppm nitrates. Not zero, but definitely not as pink as the lowest reading on my test set (which is a liquid one).
I was really struggling with my plants, including things like amazon swords which are supposed to be good starter plants. After doing quite a bit of research and some long conversations with Natalia on the old board, I started adding nitrate to my tank at water change. And it makes an enormous difference. There is a photo of my tank in the gallery, so you can see how healthy the plants now look. It does feel very strange to add nitrate when most people do water changes to remove nitrates!
I think that if you have low nitrates in the tap water, you would probably need a heavily stocked tank to go with a heavily planted tank to avoid having to add nitrates. If you think about garden plant fertilisers being PKN (potassium, phosphate and nitrogen), it makes sense that you need these in the right proportions for aquarium plants to thrive.
Apologies if you weren't looking for a plant answer to this post! :)
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Hello Helen, No need for apology, I like to discuss all kinds of things like this.
Just recently I started to collect rainwater, in testing that the Nitrate = 0 but I'm slightly puzzled with the PH, with the API test there are 2 types of PH test, the normal one reads PH = 6 but the PH high test reads PH = 7 which is still fairly soft.
I don't fully understand why there is 2 types of PH, can you or anybody else enlighten me please?
The PH is also related to bacteria growth as well I recently discovered, in low PH water it slows down from what I understand, I never realised how important PH is in all this.
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Zero nitrate in rainwater isn't surprising as the main source of nitrate in the water supply comes from run-off from farmland washing away the fertiliser.
The reason for two pH tests in the test kit is that the reagants they use are sensitive to different ranges of pH. You should choose the one that comes out more central in its range.
By the way don't confuse pH, a measure of the acidity or alkalinity of the water with hardness or softness. They are usually related, but note the terms usually and related. If you wish to measure the hardness of your water, there are tests available to do so, but API don't include one in their master test kits.
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Just to add to what Steve said, if the pH on the lower range tester is 6.0, it could be even lower than that. This tester can only measure down to 6.0; it uses the lowest colour for anything below 6.0. Similarly, at the top end, anything above 7.6 shows the 7.6 colour. With the high range tester, anything below 7.4 shows as 7.4, so 6.0 would still show as 7.4.
Just a heads up about rainwater -
If you live in/near industry (or even a motorway!) rainwater could well have pollutants from the air dissolved in it.
And like RO water, rainwater has no minerals in it; they have to be added by either mixing with tapwater or by adding remineralisation salts.
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Thanks again for the replies. This water thing sure is interesting, I heard about rainwater collecting pollutants but never thought how much or how serious it could be.
I'm not arguing just discussing, but how do small ponds or even garden ponds cope after a heavy rainfall especially those close to motorways or near industrial areas, does the water already in the pond neutralise it or something?
So now the use of rainwater is out, I was thinking it was more pure than the tap water but it seems I'm wrong.
I have seen test kits for things like Phosphates and other minerals but never bothered with them, in one way I'm afraid to start looking because I would get bogged down with even more things to worry about, I am trying not to add chemicals as much as possible that is why I looked at rainwater instead of the chemically treated tap water but it looks like I will have to revert back to it.
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The important thing with plants is getting the balance of all the minerals and light correct. The plants will only grow as fast as teh 'lowest' ingredient. In my tank that was CO2 then nitrates. you could keep ln topping up the limiting ingredient, but it starts to get expensive and time consuming - not least in pruning the plants. Where you stop is entirely down to personal preference. The othe minerals I can test for, and occaisionally do if something changes and I get a plant or algae problem are calcium, iron and phosphate. Usually just testing for nitrates, pH and hardness gives me enough information to know whether something is starting to go wrong.
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I also think knowing the plants is like knowing the fish. I have gone in the fish shop, looked at plants and thought, 'Oh they look nice' but after a week they loose their leaves or just slowly die off.
They may for all I know be delicate and only like a certain type of water, I've read posts where people have given up on plants and go for plastic.
Some of the reasons are as you mentioned, some put them in the wrong type of substrate, or near fast flowing water and any other reasons.
We learn eventually or from research what fish are compatible with each or or certain types of water but a lot never bother to research the plants, and I will admit I am/have been guilty of it myself.
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The problem with plants is made worse by the fact that a lot of plants sold for aquariums are not aquatic. You'll see dracenas and bamboo sold for tanks, and even spider plants, to name but three.
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I agree with both those comments. And have to admit, that I put as much effort into looking after the plants in my tank as I do the fish. Which also means that I don't buy anything without having first researched it, so I know whether it is compatible with what I already have. Soft water, low light, hardness etc
There are also other more in depth topics regarding plant compatibility. There is the (often disputed) idea that some plants give off chemicals that affect the growth of other plants. The most significant incompatible combination for beginners' plants is cryptocornes and amazon swords. I can't remember which way round it is, but one stops the other growing. And, I'm sorry, but I also can't remember the term for this phenomenon.
I actually have both in my tank, and they now grow quite successfully together. To the extent that I am starting to uproot baby crypts because they are spreading so prolifically. So far the amazon swords haven't been affected by being surrounded by crypts!
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mmm - I'm growing Crypts and Swords and they seem OK. I dose with fertiliser when I remember and they've got grow tabs under them. I've never heard they won't grow together before - I'd better 'wait'n'see'.
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... There is the (often disputed) idea that some plants give off chemicals that affect the growth of other plants. The most significant incompatible combination for beginners' plants is cryptocornes and amazon swords. I can't remember which way round it is, but one stops the other growing. And, I'm sorry, but I also can't remember the term for this phenomenon.
The term is allelopathy. It is usually mentioned in respect of algae control. I hadn't heard about the example you gave but...
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OK another question regarding bacteria:
I know to add Ammonia to start the fishless cycle, but I/we have read where some have said if they can't get Ammonia to add a pinch of fish food.
So this got me thinking, what is it in fish food that causes Ammonia, is it after it decays it lets off Ammonia?
Then I thought would some other kind of food create the same thing, why does it have to be fish food, I'm wondering if there is anything better?
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Quick biochemistry lesson :D
Proteins are made up of chains of thousands of amino acids. Amino acids contain nitrogen, general formula is NH2.CHR.COOH where R is a side group; it's the exact nature of R that makes the various amino acids different from each other. When living things metabolise proteins, they turn them into CO2, H2O and a nitrogenous waste. The exact nitrogenous waste depends on the animal. Mammals turn it into urea, which we dissolve in water as urine. Birds make uric acid which they excrete as a solid (birds only 'poo' they don't 'wee'; thank goodness, bird droppings are bad enough without them dropping liquid on us as well). Animals like fish which live in water can make the simplest nitrogenous waste, ammonia. It takes less energy to make and it can be removed from the body straight from the gills. Other aquarium creature like shrimps and snails also make ammonia as their waste.
But proteins also get turned into simpler nitrogenous compounds when they decompose. Fish food contains protein, and micro-organisms in the water turn this protein into ammonia, amongst other things. This is why fishfood can be used for cycling, and to keep a cycled filter alive if there are no fish in the tank. If you put fishfood in a tank it'll end up as ammonia whether it is processed by fish or by micro-organisms. Another favourite for cycling is dead prawns, the kind you eat. This does end up very smelly and the prawns go slimy which is why it's recommended to put them in a mesh bag like the foot of a pair of tights - makes it easier to remove the slime.
The only reason that ammonia is prefered for fishless cycling is that you can measure the exact amount of ammonia you are adding. With fish food or prawns, because they have to decompose you don't know exactly how much ammonia is going into the water. So you don't know if you have grown enough bacteria to support the addition of you all your proposed fish at the end of the cycle.
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if they can't get Ammonia
You won't have any bother getting a bottle of ammonia in the UK. You will find it freely available in supermarkets and DIY stores (like Homebase) in the household cleaners section. Plain bottle, no frills, it is sold in the UK in diluted form (9.5% in 500ml). It worked brilliantly in my own fishless cycle earlier this year.
Decomposing food is a source of ammonia, but I know I would not want to leave food to decay in a tank. Using a measure of ammonia gives instant and largely controllable results, a much better option than waiting for food to decay IMO.
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There is that. I'm not sure I'd want to be removing disgusting, half decompsed fish food or, even worse, prawns on a regular basis.
Though to play devil's advocate, there is a school of thought that using fish food grows all the other micro-organisms a mature tank needs faster than ammonia solution ;D
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Thanks, I did know you can get pure Ammonia I was asking more about doing it by adding fish food just for interest and curiosity more than anything else.
This is why I asked if another type of food would work, but as you say it contains proteins etc, I did read that by crumbling the fish food up it is better than just adding it as flakes because the flakes can rot in to a fungus which is not suitable.
On a side issue I also read which I never gave thought to, packing filter media in too tight is also not recommended, it is best to be more open so to speak so the air can pass through it thus helping the bacteria to grow. I think I did pack some in a small filter I have in a 20 liter tank which I'm about to check after I posted this lol.
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Though to play devil's advocate, there is a school of thought that using fish food grows all the other micro-organisms a mature tank needs faster than ammonia solution
;D Now there's something I hadn't thought of. Learn something new every day here. ;)
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This is why I like discussions like this, we know most of it but now again a little gem pops up. :)
Well I'm glad I checked the little filter because I had packed the sponge in too tight, it was from another matured filter but still it was tight and as I say I read if the oxygen can't flow through the same it inhibits the bacteria growth and sometimes if it is too tight it can stop it or more a less stop it resulting in a possible spike.
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The water has to be able to flow adequately through a filter. If it's too tightly packed, the water flow slows down, reducing the amount of both food (ammonia/nitrite) and oxygen reaching the bacteria.
Did you also know that synthetic sponges come in two types? There are those that soak up water and hold it and those that allow water to run through them. For use in a filter, it has to be the last type. If you want to use cheap sponges rather than expensive aquarium ones, not only do you have to make sure the sponge hasn't been impregnated with some sort of cleaning chemical, you also have to make sure it's the right type.
Fish food will also decay better if it's crumbled up as lots of little pieces have more surface area than one big piece. The bigger the surface area the faster it will decay because the micro-organisms that do the decomposing can get to more of it.
I use the word micro-organism as there will be bacteria, fungi, protozoa etc not just one type.
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The thing about the sponges is interesting, for example in a filter I had one time the bottom layer was very course then it went less course to the top layer which was quite dense, I am resuming the difference in the courses was the final part took out the tiniest particles so acted a water polisher.
I suppose this is why some have filter wool as the polisher to take out the small particles that would normally pass through the very wide holed sponges.
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That's right. Although all the media will house bacteria, some do it better than others. Coarse sponges with big holes are a better biomedium than small fine sponges with small holes, but there's not very much difference. And with their small holes, fine sponges are better at trapping debris.
Though both are the type that lets water flow through. It's sponges like car washing sponges that hold water.
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Did you also know that synthetic sponges come in two types? There are those that soak up water and hold it and those that allow water to run through them. For use in a filter, it has to be the last type. If you want to use cheap sponges rather than expensive aquarium ones, not only do you have to make sure the sponge hasn't been impregnated with some sort of cleaning chemical, you also have to make sure it's the right type.
I seem to be in dictionary mode at the moment. If you are looking for generic sponges, the technical term(s) for the type of sponge that Sue is describing is reticulated sponge. Although sometimes it is called Open Cell sponge. If you google either of those terms, you should find oodles of entries.
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Oodles not Noodles lol. :)
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Thank you for the correct terms Steve. Now that you mention it, the term open cell does sound familiar though I don't think I've ever heard the term reticulated used in this context.
I'll make a note of them :D
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I re-positioned a couple of my filters, the reason being they were tight up in the corner of the tank and only one side was exposed to the water intake where as the other was tight against the glass.
I know eventually the bacteria will populate that side but I thought by having the water to gain access to both sides it would be more beneficial.
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With reference to my above post, when I moved the filter I noticed the sponge on the side that was against the glass was very clean, it may have had beneficial bacteria on it but compared with the exposed side there was a big difference, so I'm thinking I did the right thing by moving it.