Tropical Fish Forum
Tropical Fish Keeping Help and Advice => New Fishkeepers => Topic started by: Cora on May 12, 2016, 05:13:07 PM
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Hi everyone. After lurking here for a few weeks I thought I'd officially join and donate to the site.
Last July I moved out of my parents' and bought my own house. It has taken a long time to get it looking and feeling like a home, but now finally it does. Except the main bathroom, but more on that later...
So, what could possibly add to the attraction of a relaxed conservatory than a relatively small fish tank (hereafter referred to as 'aquarium' because it sounds posher...).
At first I wanted goldfish because I've always loved them. There is nothing "common" about the common goldfish; they are wonderful creatures. As a teenager I had a three foot tank which started out as coldwater (temperate really) and evolved into a tropical tank. But the fantails and shubunkin I had got along just fine. (Only in hindsight do I realise how much fishkeeping knowledge and techniques have moved on in 20 years!). As the fish grew old and died I didn't replace them. Eventually I sold the tank and what (who) was left to my sister.
So when I decided to get a tank in my own house I wanted a couple of goldfish in a small aquarium. Why? Because goldfish are hardy and easy to maintain and a small tank is less hassle, right? Apparently not. After speaking with a friend and reading ThinkFish I decided that actually a tropical tank with lots of smaller fish (hereafter referred to as fishies) would be much less hassle. I wanted the aquarium to be a nice feature, not a full time job...
So with my mind made up I went tank shopping. I eventually settled on a Juwel 70L (white, including stand - to match the conservatory) with internal filter.
I know what you're thinking: conservatory, really? Well, my conservatory doesn't actually get direct sunlight and loses heat quickly. Plus the thermostat I bought (Fluval electronic 200W) should easily be able to maintain water temp even in the Arctic. The other reason is that the conservatory is literally the only room in my house in which to place the tank. The other rooms already have features, and upstairs the aquarium wouldn't be seen often!
I decided to go with artificial plants. I set up the decor and filled with water to begin the cycling process. This is where the lack of research and some poor advice comes in. What I realised I was doing is trying to start with a fishless cycle and switch to a fish cycle. I used lots of "quick start" bacteria of different types and dosed as recommended. If you followed the instructions you would genuinely believe that all that's needed is to dose with these magical bacteria solutions.
I cringe now, having learned so much more (again, mostly from this site), about my poor preparation for this tank. After the stated timeframe of bacteria dosing, coupled with fish food in the water, I decided it was time for the fishies. I went to a private seller, who seems to know his stuff, but in hindsight (and after using the community builder here) it seems I have definitely overstocked.
3 x Scissortails (not provided by the fishie seller, in all fairness)
3 x mollys (2F 1M)
6 x penguin tetras
2 x coolie loaches
2 x pakistani loaches
I know some of you are reading this and cringing. Yes, I know. But because there's hopefully going to be a happy ending to this story I wanted to be honest about my current fishy situation and admit my mistakes.
(I was told the loaches wouldn't add to the bio-load of the tank, which is only half-right at best.)
The fish settled in fine and there were no problems. I was testing the water (with strips) and doing water changes.
I learned quickly that these strips are not entirely functionally useful for specificity of purported measurements to an acceptable level, which is the most polite (and verbose) way of describing them without using a four-letter word. And we have standards on these forums, of course.
The strips reported NO nitrite problems but didn't test for ammonia. I bought an API testing kit with reagents and these indicated a different story! I have since done frequent water changes, even two 50% changes, and am still unable to get a zero ammonia reading. Perhaps my tap water itself contains some? I should test this asap...
Most of the fish continued to be fine though. The Scissortails are constantly relaxed, but the tetras went from shoaling often (and often the Scissors and Penguins would shoal together) to going off doing their thing. One possibility which I've read is that in situations where they feel very relaxed and safe they don't feel the need to shoal. This may or may not be true in my aquarium...
At this time (1-2 weeks ago) I myself began to develop symptoms of a personal nature. It begin with thinking about the fishies, often at work. Then the dreams began... test kits and feeding the fish, more fish, more fish! Another tank, a bigger tank!! aaaahh! I woke up screaming "fishy". Fortunately I was alone this night. I found my hand soaking wet. Had I been sweating? Nope, I'd just sleep-walked down to the fish tank to stroke them in the night. (This story is only partially true.)
After further research I turns out I have contracted MTS. (My GP didn't seem that impressed with my self-diagnosis and muttered something about wasting NHS resources. Pfft, what am I paying for??)
I learned quickly that I had not given my aquarium project the research or preparation it needed, and I felt bad about this. And I had overstocked it, quite a bit.
We've had some lovely days of weather recently (you might have noticed; turns out that hot bright orb in the sky is not actually a weather balloon) and the temperature in my tank was averaging 26-27 instead of the 25 for which I was aiming. (These are degrees Celsius, by the way. Anyone who still uses Fahrenheit, feel free to join us in the 21st century...via the 20th...)
Some of my fish have displayed disturbing behaviour: the golden molly (ostensibly female, yet it chases the black and white (definitely a male) molly everywhere) was shimmying rapidly from side to side and breathing heavily. This was very worrying, but every morning I saw her (?) back to normal. Most disturbing was an outbreak of WHITE SPOT on the tetras. That was this week - Tuesday night in fact. It came on so suddenly and AFTER I'd already done a 50% water change. I believe I'd just stressed them out and the sudden temperature didn't help. I rushed to the store the next morning (I was late for work, but I'm the boss, so it's ok) and bought a white spot treatment. I applied half the recommended dose (because I have loaches). But one of the tetras was sat in a plant looking in a very bad state, and I doubt he was just depressed about the economy. (Incidentally, I had already used API aquarium salt in the water from the start.) When I returned home later that day, I found him dead (not floating, just mid-tank, upright, near a plant). But, the white spot had disappeared from all the other fish, who were behaving fine.
I made up my mind - I have made mistakes but I'm going to fix them. I do want to keep fish, and do it properly, with all the care that involves. I had been ignorant, but not careless. I resolved to buy a much bigger tank and prepare it properly, and I'm sure my current fishies will survive until then. It won't be cheap, but then who needs a new bathroom anyway...
So, here we are. This is what I have ironically dubbed PROJECT: FISHY 185, because the only thing worse than an ambiguous name is a pretentious one.
I'm going for a 185L community tank (white, including stand). It's going to have an external filter (All Pond Solutions 1400L/H + 9W UV) and be completely planted. I am going to follow the fishless cycle guides here and have it fully prepared. (I was planning to use carbon dioxide tablets, plus carbon solution instead of using a CO2 system and diffuser. Any thoughts on this are welcome.)
The gravel will be black, to make the fish more relaxed, and I'll be using lots of bogwood because it just looks great. I plan to transfer at least the Scissortails to the new tank, and probably the Mollys too. I think the tetras might be too small for what I have in mind for the 185.
This post was partly inspired by paddyc's long thread documenting the journey for his setup. I don't know if I will do anything as descriptive as that (certainly not as well as paddy did, anyway) - but if anyone is interested I'll post pictures of the journey as it unfolds and let you know how the current setup proceeds over the next month. All I can do it keep monitoring and cleaning the 70L until the new one is ready. Again, I wish I would have planned and been advised properly from the beginning... I'm sure that won't be a problem now that I'm here.
But if all goes well, in a few weeks (or longer) I'll have a much larger, beautiful, planted aquarium with an appropriate load, and which will ultimately involve much less maintenance, far less worry, and far more time just watching the fish, which is, after all, the whole point :)
Finally I should say that I think this site is great and thanks to those who make it possible and contribute daily.
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Hi Cora, I'm glad you decided to join us :wave:
You'll find so many people have done what you have done, me included. I started out almost 20 years ago with 3 common goldfish in a 60 litre tank - not my choice, blame my teenaged sons' dart throwing skills at the fair. They did actually spend their first night with us in a large mixing bowl and undechlorinated water, followed next day by a tank buying trip.
Before you decide what fish will go in which tank, can I suggest you find out how hard your water is. That info should be somewhere on your water company's website. The reason? You have soft water fish (tetras) and hard water fish (mollies). One or other will not be happy. But with two tanks you have the choice of 'altering' the water in one of them. If your tapwater is soft, add remineralisation salts to one and keep the mollies, and other hard water fish, in that one. If your tapwater is hard, mix it with RO water (reverse osmosis water, water that has had all its minerals removed) and keep soft water fish in that tank.
Once you have decided what is going where, you can increase the numbers of shoaling fish to at least 6 each - that's everything except the mollies.
And I suggest you stop using the aquarium salt. Soft water fish don't like it, and hard water fish need different salts. The chemicals that make hard water hard are mainly calcium and magnesium, and carbonate. Aquarium salt is plain sodium chloride, the same stuff you add to your food. Even hard water fish haven't evolved to cope with that.
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Hello and welcome, Cora.
Great post - nice and informative. You're not the first, and won't be the last, to fall for this instant cycling scam. Glad you've found this site as there's a wealth of info to be gleaned.
If you're going down the road of a planted tank then you might want to read up about substrate - a suitable soil-based base layer topped by suitable grain-size capping. Called the 'Walstad Method' it's the least hassle way of growing decent plants without getting obsessive..... and doesn't need CO2 if you've chosen 'easy' plants.
I've seen a big shoal of penguin tetras in a tank and it's a lovely sight. I like the idea of large numbers of smaller fish.
Ah-ha. I see that Sue has beaten me to some of the things I was going to say. Saves the typing fingers..... and more time for drinking wine!!! ;D woopee-do
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Hi Sue
thanks for the welcome :)
I'm rushing at the moment but wanted to reply quickly: yes I'll stop using the aquarium salt.
As for my local water, please see the attachment.
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Hi Cora and welcome. :cheers:
What a great first post! I really enjoyed reading your account and I had a grin on my face for most of it. This bit though, So, here we are. This is what I have ironically dubbed PROJECT: FISHY 185, because the only thing worse than an ambiguous name is a pretentious one.
made me laugh out loud!
It's great that you've realised your mistakes and taken quick action to remedy them. Most of us have made similar mistakes.
I look forward to hearing how you get on ...
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I see your hardness is 1.575 deg Clarke. They also use the phrase very soft.
There are a handful of units that are used for hardness, degrees Clarke (aka English degrees) is just one of them. There are two used in fishkeeping, degrees German (also known as dH) and ppm CaCo3, also called just ppm or mg/l. Luckily, I have the conversion factors stored in a Word doc on my laptop ;D
The main thing you need to know is that your water is very soft. When looking at fish profiles that use numbers (eg on Seriously Fish and Fishbase), your deg Clarke convert to 1.26 German deg and 22.5 ppm.
Water this soft is not very good for mollies. They tend to suffer from something called the shimmies - and you mentioned the golden molly suffering from this in your first post. Mollies like very hard alkaline water. If you want to keep them, you could always dedicate one of the tanks to hard water fish. With this level of softness (is there such a word when applied to water ??? ) using crushed coral won't make enough impact; you would need to add more of the minerals found naturally in hard water - that is remineralisation salts which are designed for people using just RO water to make it safe for fish. For example Tropic Marin remin salts (http://www.tropic-marin.com/suesswasserpflege/de-re-mineral-tropic-en-re-mineral-tropic-fr-re-mineral-tropic/?lang=en) (be careful, there's a version for marine fish as well)
But you will find it much easier if you stick to soft water fish.
When considering future fish - and to check on the ones you currently have - look at their requirements on these two sites.
http://www.fishbase.org/search.php is a scientific site. As such in contains info about the actual fish and the water they come from but nothing about keeping them. It is the best site for size, water type etc. Sometimes the site won't work; if that happens, try one of the mirror sites listed at the top of the page - they are all in English.
http://www.seriouslyfish.com/knowledge-base/ gives more info on keeping a particular fish and is very useful as it contains more species than Thinkfish. Some of the profiles give hardness requirements in dH (German deg) while others use ppm (mg/l)
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Hi Cora and welcome! :wave:
What a thoroughly enjoyable and entertaining read, even if some of your experiences are of a serious nature - the overnight experience and MTS diagnosis part was particularly amusing. :rotfl: I think you'll fit in well on this forum and you've done the right thing in coming here.
There is nothing "common" about the common goldfish; they are wonderful creatures.
Absolutely - couldn't agree more! I owned goldfish, then, for a variety of reasons, moved into tropical fishkeeping after my beloved one died a couple of years ago.
Envious that you're setting up a comparatively bigger tank. Good choice to have a dark substrate - that's what I ought to have done. If you put a background on it, I'd also recommend black rather than blue or any other colour - I swapped from black to blue and regret it as it looks much less natural.
Good move in going down the fishless cycle route. Like you, I tried the fish food method and kept adding more and more flakes although nothing seemed to be happening. What I also didn't realise at the time was that, with a natural KH of 1 (ie pretty much the same as yours) and my limestone rock being in a brand new tank with new water and not having had the chance to leach into that, my fishless cycle stalled pretty much from the beginning - nothing seemed to be happening. Ultimately, my cycle ended up being a "stalled/not-getting-anywhere fishless cycle followed by a Tetra Safestart plus fish-in cycle combo" which I wouldn't advocate at all in light of the helpful and friendly advice available on here to help you through a much more ethical fishless cycle. I would therefore make sure that you try to increase your water hardness for the cycling process, either through having some limestone rock in the tank for several weeks before you even begin the fishless cycle or putting crushed coral in a muslin bag in the filter or use bicarbonate of soda - can't remember the specifics of this off the top of my head.
When considering additions to your tank, given your very soft water, the types of fish I have in my "Community Creator" (see the footnote) would therefore be suitable for your tank too but there will also be other, larger ones in the "Fish Profiles" section which would be suitable for you. You'll probably have to make the decision about whether to go for lots of small fish or whether to go for fewer large fish. The temptation is often to go for lots of different species but there are definite advantages to large shoals of one species which is an understated beauty to watch. One factor to consider is how far away the tank is from where you usually sit - and work out whether you'd want larger or more patterned fish to be able to see them individually or not.
Hope this is of some help. Looking forward to reading of your progress.
:fishy1:
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fcmf has reminded me about fishless cycling in soft water.
Water that is low in calcium and magnesium (ie GH) is usually also low in carbonate (ie KH). The filter bacteria need a source of inorganic carbon (carbonate) to multiply. And they like a high pH to multiply - the danger with low KH is that carbonate buffers the water against pH changes and when there is very little carbonate there is a great risk of a pH crash.
During fishless cycling, carbonate can be artificially boosted using bicarbonate of soda (sold in the home baking section of the supermarket - you might have some in your kitchen already). Use at the rate of one 15ml spoonful per 50 litres of tank water. Dissolve in a bit of water, then add to the tank. Monitor the pH every time you test and add more bicarb if the pH starts to fall. Bicarb will increase the pH as well as KH.
At the end of the cycle, a big water change is done to remove the nitrate made by the filter bacteria and that will also remove the bicarb ready for when you get fish.
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Hi Cora and welcome to the forum. :wave:
I'm glad that you have decided to join us.
I can't wait to see how Project Fishy 185 goes and I'm looking forward to seeing your pictures.
I also have self-diagnosed MTS. I'm sitting in my living room surrounded by 12 tanks of various sizes (in my defence 1 tank is for breeding snails for the dwarf puffers, 1 tank is housing aquatic plants while I'm planting my other tanks, and 1 tank is empty for quarantining new fish). You have come to the right place as everyone here is very tolerant of MTS symptoms. :)
I also feel that your writing style will also fit in very well. ;D
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Wow, what a lovely collection of friendly and helpful replies. I'm not sure where to start!
Ok, Sue - cheers. I think I'll definitely have to include bicarb in my new cycle.
Given the natural state of my water I will stick to fish that generally favour those conditions. As for the mollys, I don't want to cause them distress. I will look to change their habitat as soon as possible.
To answer some general points here: The couch in front of the tank is about 1.5 metres away, so a good distance to see even small fish (I wear contacts and have done for 12 years, during which time my skill at changing them has increased at a glacial rate).
I would like someone to tell me there's a way I can keep my three Scissortails in a large tank that I want to be largely populated by small to medium sized shoals. Preferably soft-water loving hardy and peaceful. Cherry barbs, for example.
I spent a bit of money on my current tank, and I am spending so much on my new house. But, I don't think I can ethically keep my current fish in this 70L. So I must either get rid of them so soon, or spend the money and do it properly. Guess which I had to choose? It's a lot more money, and every time I come here and read more I feel even more daunted by how much I need to learn... But, it's just like science and that was my first love, so I'll do what it takes to get it right.
fcmf - yes I had gone for light gravel in this tank because I wanted a tropical/marine look, as if you could peek under water in hot sandy waters and replicate that style. But, I believe dark really is better for the fish. I will do a nutrient rich substrate topped with dark gravel. Cheers, ColinB - and I want to get "easy" plants anyway.
So, I lost two tetras tonight. One was gone when I got home and the other was on his way out. It's not nice to see a little creature losing its life before your eyes (there was no doubt he was dying). I didn't want him to carry on to distress, getting nibbled by others, only to find him finally gone in the morning, so I euthenised him using a technique a professional keeper gave to me. "It's only a fish" some might say (and a tiny one too) but it was my responsibility and I feel a bit sad that I've haven't given them the happy home I wanted.
I've done another water change 20%, because the GH and KH readings weren't good. I've also turned off the air stone -- the filter is creating enough surface agitation and I think my fish prefer the peace and quiet. I'll post some pictures of the current tank asap.
So much to reply to - sorry if I've missed a point. I will get to it.
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Sorry to hear about the two tetras. :(
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You won't hear anyone on here say it's only a fish. We all take our responsibilities seriously and I'm really glad to hear you are, too. We've all made lots of mistakes..... but we've all learnt from them. You'll have a fantastic tank in a while, with lots of happy fish.
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Aw - sorry to hear about the tetras.
The one point I'll mention - only because there are a lot of myths and "sworn by" methods out there, held by long-term fishkeepers in particular - is that the most humane and ethical method of fish euthanasia involves clove oil (+/- vodka). Hopefully this is in line with what you used but, if not, hopefully useful for future reference. :)
You won't hear anyone on here say it's only a fish. We all take our responsibilities seriously and I'm really glad to hear you are, too. We've all made lots of mistakes..... but we've all learnt from them. You'll have a fantastic tank in a while, with lots of happy fish.
Precisely!
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Clove oil and vodka is exactly what I used, yes.
I am now chilling in front of the tank with my laptop and a glass of dry white wine. A toast to fallen (fishy) friends, lol. :fishy1:
They say ignorance is bliss; the more you know and all that... Now I admit I'm finding it hard to enjoy the fish right now because I'm worried about them.
I've considered trying to start a new cycle in a 30L tank just for the Mollys, with harder water. But I doubt that a 30L is big enough for them. I think I'll take Sue's advice and dose with remin salts for the interim.
I've got pictures but I'll need to upload them to a pic hosting site and link that way.
Anyway, cheers :cheers:
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Glad you used that approach, so that will hopefully make you feel a little better in the difficult circumstances.
You're correct - it looks from the Thinkfish Profiles and the Seriously Fish profiles that both shortfin and sailfin mollies need much larger tanks than 30 litres.
The feeling of lack of enjoyment is absolutely normal in your circumstances but, once the situation gets back under control, the situation will change - you'll notice a thread on the forum called "Lost the will to keep shrimp" which is a perfect example of this.
New day tomorrow and all that - onwards and upwards for the remaining fish. :)
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(http://i.imgur.com/DpYj47y.gif)
Welcome along, Cora!
I was so pleased to read your feedback on my thread. I apologise for it's length, it has been a long old slog with the impromptu house move pretty much immediately after the completion of my fishless cycle. Plus I always welcome the banter that surfaces on it from time to time.
I eagerly await your updates, good luck with your project, I will keep a close eye on your progress...
P.s. we love pics here.
P.p.s. picsoritdidnthappen
;)
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Hey Paddy. I feel like a know a tiny bit about a lot of people here just from lurking. And I read every page of your thread. I'm glad things have worked out for you. I'm very pleased with the house I have but must confess to a little envy at your abode, inside and out :)
I can report that as of this morning, no more deaths - although the loaches are now shier than they've ever been, and I only ever see one (the same one??) at a time.
I'll be posting pics here of the tank shortly.
PROJECT: FISHY 185 UPDATE
Tank to be delivered on Monday.
External filter delivered today or Monday.
Next immediate purchases:
Good Substrate + dark gravel
Selection of easy-maintenance plants (probably from Amazon)
The more plants I can get at the start, the better.
Cycle prep:
Jeyes Kleen-Off Ammonia - check
Bicarb - check
I'm going to research the type of fishies for the soft water tank. My sister has volunteered to give the Mollys a good home in her big tank where hardness doesn't seem to be a problem.
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Best of luck with Project Fishy 185.
Very exciting day for you on Monday. ;D
I'm going to head out to both of the aquatics centre soon...anything could happen. ::)
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Oooo - exciting times.
May I suggest J Arthur Bowers Aquatic Compost for the substrate, and a 1 - 2mm grain-sized gravel topping.
See this thread (http://www.thinkfish.co.uk/forums/fish-tank-plant-advice/confused-with-planting-substrate/) and this thread (http://www.thinkfish.co.uk/forums/fish-tank-plant-advice/plant-base-layer-under-sandgrave/) (which has an *ahem* 'lively discussion') for more ideas.
This is an excellent place to buy plants from: Aqua Essentials (https://www.aquaessentials.co.uk/)
This is a great place for ideas and info, and it splits the plants into Easy/Medium/Advanced which I found very useful: Tropica (http://tropica.com/en/)
Hope this helps.
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Hi Colin, the J Arthur Bowers compost looks pretty cheap - would 20L be enough?
And for the top layer, I was going to go for pea-sized black gravel - but you're saying that smaller grain would be better on top?
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The main criterion for gravel is that it is smooth if you have loaches or cories which spend time rootling round the substrate looking for food.
Some black substrates are dyed and can look a bit tacky; sort of waxy. Have a good hunt round all your local shops.
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I've yet to see a black substrate that looks anything but ugly and artificial. To keep your fish happy, I think giving them plants to shelter under, and not having lights that are too bright, are more important. Floating plants are a big help, I find all of my fish enjoy the cover they give.
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Perhaps something not black just dark then. I have to cover the compost with something, after all. But I take your feedback on board; the last thing I want is tacky or artificial. I want the aquarium to feel very natural; no castles or gimmicks etc. Not to criticise anyone who does! It depends on the look you want. I want observers to look at my tank and feel as if they're peering underwater in a stream or riverbed.
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Ok, so I'm thinking of larger groups of small fish, all of which prefer soft water (or don't care) - all of which are peaceful and either shoal or work well in large groups.
Cherry Barb x 6
Pearl Gourami x 7
Penguin Tetra x 6
Bolivian Ram (or Butterfly Ram) x 6
Pearl Danio x 6
Cardinal Tetra x 10
Golden Barb x 5
Obviously it will be some weeks before the tank is even cycled but I think I would start with the more hardy barbs as initial stock. Anyway, that's a long way off!
Any feedback on my choices is welcome.
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Pearl Gourami, Rams and Cardinals all like their temps at 24°C min, while Golden Barbs are 24°C max.
However; having said that then I don't run a heater at all in my tank and it varies between 18° and 22º. My 5-band Barbs, Cherry Barbs and Lemon Tetras seem perfectly happy.
Interesting article on tank temps here (http://www.seriouslyfish.com/whaddaya-mean-too-hot/).
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Go for bolivian rams. The other type, rams (Mikrogeophagus ramirezi in all it's colour varieties) needs warmer water than golden barbs and cherry barbs would like.
Rams (both species) are 'earth eaters', that is they take mouthfulls of substrate and sift it for food. I once had a pair of bolivian rams with small gravel on the bottom of the tank. The female got a piece of gravel stuck in her throat. Despite my attempts to remove it, she died shortly afterwards. Her co-ordination went; she would attempt to pick up food and miss. It took her several goes to get every mouthful. The male pined away after she died. I changed all my tanks from gravel to sand after this happened.
If you want these fish, or even apistogrammas, get either gravel that is too big to fit in their mouths, or sand.
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....and once you've seen Panda Cories then you're bound to want them, and they like sand sifting, too. ;D
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Pearl Gourami, Rams and Cardinals all like their temps at 24°C min, while Golden Barbs are 24°C max.
I suppose I could swap the Golden Barbs then. I'd tend to keep a warmer tank, avg +25. cheers!
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Go for bolivian rams. The other type, rams (Mikrogeophagus ramirezi in all it's colour varieties) needs warmer water than golden barbs and cherry barbs would like.
Will do. They are prettier anyway! :p
If you want these fish, or even apistogrammas, get either gravel that is too big to fit in their mouths, or sand.
For some reason I picked up a negative opinion on sand. How would sand do on top of the compost substrate?
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Golden Barbs are rather boisterous fish, not sure if they would go well with Cardinals. Pearl gouramis are pretty big fish. Though they are generally peaceful and shy, males can become territorial and fight, like all labyrinth fishes. 7 seems rather a lot. Personally, I always reckon you should have fish of similar size in one tank, not mix some which are much bigger than others. Pearl danios are OK (I have them) but if starting again I might go for something like Glowlight danios.
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My observation is that plants do much better in gravel than sand, even with soil underneath.
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ColinB - I was thinking of four pgymy corys!
RichardW - yeah, larger gravel would probably be a good compromise for me then.
I'll swap out the Golden Barbs.
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There are a lot of accounts on here of people finding Pygmy cories to be rather delicate and tending to die for no apparent reason. I'd have something bigger, Pandas are certainly engaging creatures.
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I agree with Richard re pygmy cories, especially if they would be for the bigger tank. I have them in my 50 litre, 60 cm long tank - well, I have 2 left, the rest have died. As have all but 2 of a shoal of habrosus cories. Bigger cories would also fare better with bolivian rams (or indeed any other south American dwarf cichlid)
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Ok - Pandas it is :)
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Ok - Pandas it is :)
Woot-woot!
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Although I might have to keep an eye on the temperature with Pandas. 25 is probably the minimum my tank would average (apologies for that statistical word salad).
I've researched a variety of plants, all of which require low CO2 and low light. There is so much from which to choose! All these shades of green against a black background should be quite beautiful.
If anyone is interested this is my plant shopping list:
Background:
Vallisneria spiralis (long straight and grasslike for background)
Camboma Caroliniana
Amazon Sword
Elodea Densa
Mid:
Limnophilia Sessisfloro (light green and interesting shape)
Anubias Heterophylla (a bit more expensive for a plant but great big leaves and a medium height should make a nice central feature)
Mid/Fore:
Lindernia Rotundifolia
Guppy grass (this stuff is so versatile and attractive, I could place it anywhere)
Fore:
Moss balls
Java moss (will try to attached to small bits of wood and rock)
Misc:
Dwarf Lettuce - floating (recommended here, nice shade and an interesting addition)
As you can see I've left the foreground quite bare.
I have fertiliser (shut up, spell-check, yes yes I know the traditional Oxford English recommends a 'Z' but that has since become America and what's left of this great language I shall retain with every 'S'!), and carbon dioxide boost in tablets and liquid. This is for the cycling stage when there will be no fish and I want to encourage plant growth at the very start. Also, the extra carbon should help the filter bacteria - if I have understood Sue correctly.
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See this (http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=3195) about Cory Catfish.
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Damn you, Colin!!! Now I want more Corys!!
Updated: ok the latest list:
Cherry Barb x 6
Penguin Tetra x 6
Cardinal Tetra x 10
Bolivian Ram x 6
Glowlight Danio x 10
Panda Cory x 6
Zebra Danio x 6
Slender Harlequin x 10
1 x Pakistani loach
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Pakistani loaches, Botia almorhae (aka B. lohachata) are shoaling fish and need to be kept in a group. Most of the botine loaches are social. They also get quite big at around 15 cm (6 inches) so a group of them would knock a big hole in your stocking allowance.
Dwarf chain loaches, Ambastaia sidthimunki (aka Botia sidthimunki, Yasuhikotakia sidthimunki)* are smaller but would knock a big hole in your wallet.
*
This fish changes its name more often that most people have hot dinners :-\
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Cheers Sue :) I could do without the loaches altogether but since I already have one it's either keep him or give him away.
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Welcome Cora, I've been grinding college assignments for a few days so missed your hellooo. So hello from me :wave:
So many things to comment on but such sore fingies from all the damned typing.
Nice choice of fish btw, I'm very envious of the rams, I'm determined to own a pair one day. We've had pygmy cories for a while now and so far so good. It was a mature tank though so it already had established a good biofilm and not so good brown algae which has all gone now cos they scoffed it. Cories need a mature tank so you might need to wait a bit before adding them.
I've got 4 tanks and 2 have soil substrate, one is topped with white sand and one with 1-2mm black glass substrate. I agree with Richard about growing plants through sand, it doesnt work well. However I disagree about the dark substrate, I have it in my shrimpery and I think the effect looks quite natural, there's a piccy on here somewhere. Take a peek before you decide :) The third tank is my sons with a curve of sand at the front and gravel around the sides and back. I have a hands on/hands off input on my son's tank, he likes it, I dont ::)
Anyway welcome again, I thouroughly enjoyed reading the thread. Can't wait to see your piccies :)
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Nice list of fish. I'm quite partial to a few types of cory. Panda cory are very cute. I have some peppered cory in my temperate tanks and they are quite interesting little characters. And they fart, it's brilliant and will never cease to make me chuckle whenever I see it (not often enough).
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A bit late to the conversation but just to add to Richard's and Sue's points that I definitely wouldn't advocate the pygmy cories - much as mine were adorable, they died seemingly inexplicably aged 5-8 months. Also, I would only advocate them in much larger numbers (10-12+) and with similar-sized fish (eg micro rasboras). If you do go for cories, definitely go for larger ones.
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they died seemingly inexplicably aged 5-8 months.
I was just thinking about this. I'm wondering if its because by the time you see them in the shop they're generally already quite mature. I tried to get medium sized fish to take home, a few of them were absolutely tiny.
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Evening all :) much to which I need to reply but I'm off out for a curry with friends. But then there'll be a post-curry wine fest with the fishies in a few hours. Will look to reply ASAP. Have a great evening.
Disclaimer : the fish themselves shall not be partaking.
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Have just read this with a slight trigger of alarm. Thanks for the disclaimer - that's put my mind at rest. ;D Enjoy your evening.
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I've tested the KH of my aquarium water and found it to be terrible. One drop of reagent turned it yellow. So I tested my tap water and found the same thing! Apparently this is less than 1dH. But this is coming from the tap so am I stuck with it? This is from an Aquarium Lab test kit not API. I have API but it doesn't test KH.
Also, most of the fish I intend to get recommend small groups. But as you can see, for some of the groups I want I was considering a shoal of up to ten. Is this still small, or is six the ideal size?
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My KH is exactly the same - from the tap, 1 drop of re-agent to the water turns it yellow. However, with a lump of limestone rock (Tufa rock) in the tank, it means that the water in the tank is usually around 3 because the limestone rock leaches out. After a water change, it drops to about 2 but usually increases up to 3 after a few days.
Sue's suggestion of bicarbonate of soda is probably best for the cycling process, but, once that is done, then either a lump of limestone (Tufa) rock or else coral in a muslin bag in the filter should help keep the KH higher. Once the tank is cycled, then two small water changes per week rather than 1 large water change should help too.
As for shoals, 10 is better than 6 - 6 is the absolute minimum but the fish will feel much more comfortable and display more natural and quite stunning behaviour if kept in a group of ten, so that's a good move.
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As for shoals, 10 is better than 6 - 6 is the absolute minimum but the fish will feel much more comfortable and display more natural and quite stunning behaviour if kept in a group of ten
Which usually means you can't get all the fish you want, after a few weeks/months you develop a twitch in your left eye as it's bugging you so much, then one morning you wake up and decide to buy another tank so you can get those fish and then BAM! MTS ;)
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fcmf posted as I was typing, but I'll post what I've written anyway :)
Low KH doesn't impact on the fish directly. But carbonate buffers pH; if there is very little KH, you are at risk of a pH crash. The natural tendency of a fish tank is to become acidic - nitrate made by the nitrogen cycle is acidic as are hormones etc secreted by the fish. Several years ago I suffered a pH crash as my KH is 3, the tank was overstocked and I didn't do enough water changes to replenish the KH as it go used up. That's how I found this site, looking for help.
There are a few members who have low KH like you, and they should be able to give you some pointers. In general terms, you need something that will increase your KH. You could use crushed coral or coral sand as a substrate (except it's white not black ;D ), lumps of limestone rock and pieces of coral as decor; or, since the new tank will have an external filter, a bag of crushed coral in the filter. If you could source any, crushed aragonite would do as well or even better than coral as that is made of more than just calcium carbonate.
As for fish numbers, looking at your list and Seriously Fish:
Cherry barbs - at least 6 to 10
Penguin tetras - Both false penguins (Thayeria boehlkei)and true penguins (Thayeria obliqua) - at least 6, preferably 10 or more
Cardinal tetra - at least 8 to 10
Glowlight danio - at least 8 to 10
Panda cory - at least 6
Zebra danio - at least 8 to 10
Slender harlequin - at least 8 to 10
Pakistani loach - at least 5 or 6, preferably 10 or more
Bolivian ram - mixed sex group of 6 to 8
A couple of comments -
Slender harlequins aka lamb chop rasboras (Trigonostigma espei) are not common in shops. The similar Trigonostigma hengeli is more common, and often called copper rasboras. Trigonostigma heteromorpha (harlequins) are everywhere.
Pakistani loaches are also known as yoyo loaches with latin names Botia almorhae and B lohachata.
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Good morning everyone :)
It may be Monday but checking these comments always puts a smile on my face. Cheers :)
Fiona: lol. I was walking through garden centres yesterday, judging how big my 185 will be...seeing a few 240L+ and thinking, 'you know what, maybe...' But then I stopped myself! :p
Sue and fcmf - that's great advice, cheers. I'll try for crushed aragonite first and crushed coral and put it into my filter. I'm getting an oversized external filter, the All Pond Solutions 1400L/h with UV. A fish keeper yesterday actually winced when I told him the brand - do these have a poor reputation?? Even so, the price is superb (as long as it works). The point is, I should be able to put whatever I need in there.
My impression on this site is that not many of you are fans of zeo - lite - whatever the brand name - to remove ammonia. I assume the preferred option is to let the nitrifying bacteria do all the work?
Sue - cheers for your comments on my fish wish-list - this is a big help, and you've reassured me that, far from getting too many, bigger shoals is the way to go!
As for the substrate, the JAB's aquatic compost will be here soon, and I decided on natural pea gravel on top. I couldn't find anything very dark that looked natural. I considered slate, but it wouldn't be an effective cover for the compost and would make the tank much heavier.
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Also fcmf - "Tufa" I believe I bought some of this in a very good fish store yesterday. I should really remember this stuff - the fishies were so pretty, I was distracted... Apparently it's quite a potent carbonate so a small piece should be sufficient.
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Perhaps another naive question: with aragonite (or any alkaline substance) would I be in danger of raising the pH too much? The fish on my list are all soft water lovers and some prefer slightly acidic. Is it a case of using just the right amount of buffering substance without raising the pH?
Also, I notice that aragonite contains other substances: strontium, magnesium, potassium - I assume the additions of these elements in small quantities is beneficial too?
Edited to add: in my post above I'm referring to any ammonia-removers/neutralisers - anything that claims to chemically eliminate ammonia.
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Lots of questions to answer ;D
Yes, coral etc will raise the pH and GH as well as KH. But not by much. As far as pH is concerned, fish can cope with a pH outside their preferred range better than a hardness outside their preferred range. I have a GH of 6 and a pH of 7.5; I can keep soft water fish that like acid pH better than hard water fish that like alkaline pH.
GH is what is meant by hard/soft water, and is what fish profiles mean by hardness. It is a measure of divalent metal ions; in natural freshwater this means mainly calcium and magnesium with some trace metals. I got the definition from my son who spent 5 years working in a water testing lab.
The reason for using aragonite in preference to calcium carbonate in all its forms is that it does contain the other minerals.
APS filters - the plastic is a bit less robust than more expensive brands so more easily damaged if you are rough. And the flow rate is less than they say. A lot of manufacturers quote the flow rate without media inside, then when media is put in the flow rate drops quite a bit. APS is one of those.
Another forum I'm a member of did some tests a while ago - those members who had certain filters attempted to measure the flow rates of their filters. The API ones gave results:
Quoted - 2000 litre per hour; actual - 900 litres per hour, 910, 1260, 1320,
Quoted - 1400; actual - 660.
As you can see from the people with the 2000 filters, their tests showed quite a variation in flow rate. In general terms, assume APS filters deliver about half the quoted turnover when there is media in the filter. The nature of the media and the cleanliness of the media will also affect flow rate.
The 1400 is a bit underpowered for 180 litres, but it should be fine provided you don't keep messy fish - that is, fish that poo a lot eg plecs and fish that leave a lot of food uneaten eg oscars.
Ammonia removers fall into 2 types, liquids like ammo-lock and solids like zeolite.
The liquid ones contain a chemical that bind to ammonia reducing its toxicity - but the complex breaks down in around 24 hours releasing the ammonia again. The main use for this type is where the water company uses chloramine as a disinfectant. Dechlorinators break chloramine down to chlorine, which they then remove, and ammonia. The filter bacteria will remove the ammonia but not instantly; the water has to circulate to them first. Until the bacteria can remove it, it is still in contact with the fish. Many dechlorinators also contain an ingredient which binds the ammonia till the bacteria can remove it. These chemicals are also sold as stand alone products like ammo-lock. They are still only effective for about 24 hours.
The solid ones, like zeolite, absorb ammonia and remove it from the water. But then they get full and stop working. Zeolite etc must be replaced before they get full. For ever. Because they remove ammonia, the tank never grows enough bacteria to 'eat' all the ammonia made by the fish. If the zeolite is not changed, once it is full the level of ammonia in the water starts to go up, and the fishkeeper only becomes aware of this when his fish start behaving oddly.
It is far better to grow a colony of ammonia eating bacteria to remove the ammonia and grow lots of live plants which use ammonia as fertiliser than to rely on chemicals. Bacteria and plants are self replicating!
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Forgot to say -
When tap water is very soft it is important to do largish regular water changes; more so than where the water is middling to hard. Fish and plants need trace elements just as we do, and very soft water has few of them. Weekly 25 to 30% water changes will help replenish those trace elements.
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Hi Sue, thanks so much for such a comprehensive answer.
Your comments on zeolite et al are what I feared: just a money-sink and prevents a safe mature colony ever getting going.
I plan to heavily plant my tank too. I'm not thinking "underwater jungle" but I do want quite a lot. As soon as I have the setup I'll give you a photo. Aquascaping will be one of the first things I do.
What you said about fish being able to cope with pH variance much better than hardness is great to know. It seems I can source some aragonite so I can put a bit of that in a filter bag in the filter.
What you said about the external filter actual flow rate is a bit disconcerting. I am going to assume that an inline heater attached to the return flow might decrease it further (even if only fractionally)?
You've seen from my wishlist that I don't have particularly messy fish, but I thought I'd mention it anyway since, as I say, there will be lots of plants too to soak up the poo!
As for the trace elements requiring replenishment, how much will aragonite help with some of these? I'm not trying to avoid the water changes of course! - I'd just like to understand better.
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Officially, things like calcium carbonate are insoluble in water. In practice, they dissolve slightly. They won't make very much impact on hardness etc, maybe raise it a degree or two. Tapwater also contains more than even aragonite.
A few years ago I did a small experiment. I took 2 plastic tubs, filled one with just water and the other with water and a layer of crushed coral in the bottom. I left them for a week then measured pH, KH and GH of both.
GH and KH were both 2 german deg higher in the coral tub than the plain water tub; pH was 0.2 higher.
The plain water tub was a control; always compare the test sample to one that has not has anything added to it but treated the same otherwise.
I'll leave plant experts to tell you what plants need in terms of fertiliser.
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Officially, things like calcium carbonate are insoluble in water. In practice, they dissolve slightly. They won't make very much impact on hardness etc, maybe raise it a degree or two. Tapwater also contains more than even aragonite.
A few years ago I did a small experiment. I took 2 plastic tubs, filled one with just water and the other with water and a layer of crushed coral in the bottom. I left them for a week then measured pH, KH and GH of both.
GH and KH were both 2 german deg higher in the coral tub than the plain water tub; pH was 0.2 higher.
The plain water tub was a control; always compare the test sample to one that has not has anything added to it but treated the same otherwise.
I'll leave plant experts to tell you what plants need in terms of fertiliser.
I must say, Sue, you are definitely tickling my science fancy :rotfl: All this talk of controlled experiments and testing :D
Impatience is one of my vices but I can see now that preparing the tank can be quite fun too.
My plan with the plants is to use liquid CO2 and fertiliser for the cyling stage, as there'll be no food source. They are all easy growers with little requirements so once the tank is established I don't believe I will need to fertilise or provide extra CO2 - however I'm happy to take advice on this.
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This is what comes of having a degree in chemistry with biochemistry auxiliary, and working in a university biochem lab then a hospital pathology lab. They teach about the need for reference samples and standard samples ;)
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If you use a soil substrate that will provide fertiliser.
Plants also use ammonia, nitrites and nitrates all of which will result from the cycling process.
Adding fertiliser to the water may simply increase algae, which is often a problem in the beginning anyway.
Plants also need Calcium and other elements in small amounts, hence the need to add some of the sources mentioned by others to increase hardness.
I've never found any need for added carbon dioxide, but others disagree, I prefer the "keep it simple" concept unless it's absolutely necessary to add extras, which it rarely is. Tap water conditioner is the only thing I've ever added to my water, apart from fish food.
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After spending many years working in in vitro diagnostics companies, and working with quality systems, Sue I have to say that if only I could get current research colleagues to appreciate the requirements for reference and standard samples, my life would be fish, axolotls, puppies, kittens and sunshine on a daily basis. ;D
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my life would be fish, axolotls, puppies, kittens and sunshine on a daily basis. ;D
Sounds like a life well-lived :) Good luck with that last one though...
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Cheers for the advice, Richard!
I've given it more thought and I will drop one batch of Danios for Glowlight Tetras. I'll also up my quantity of Bolivian Rams from 6 to 8, because these fish are just great! :fishy1:
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With largish tanks (and 180 litres is at the bottom end of large) there are two ways of stocking them.
The first is the minimum number of lots of different species, the second is lots of a few species.
I used to be in the first, now I'm in the second group :) If you look at my signature, the microdevarios and ember tetras are the remains of larger shoals, but I have 12 pencilfish and when I replace the recently deceased cherry barbs, I'll get at least a dozen of one species.
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With largish tanks (and 180 litres is at the bottom end of large) there are two ways of stocking them.
The first is the minimum number of lots of different species, the second is lots of a few species.
I used to be in the first, now I'm in the second group :)
Yes when I first looked at this project I too was leaning towards the former, but I think larger shoals look incredible, so I will have fewer types but at least 8-10 of each (except the rams and corys).
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Does anyone have experience of Bolivian Rams - based on my experience with GBRs, I wonder if three pairs in a tank this size would be maximum as they'd form territories on the bottom...
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I've never kept rams but having read about them I was wondering about the same thing. Territorial fish are a bit of a pain, if I'd known how stroppy stiphs were I probably wouldn't have got any,they do spoil the tranquility.
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I have had Bolivian rams in the past and I too have been surprised when sites say they should be kept in groups.
My experience with them -
I bought 2 Bolivian rams for my old 125 litre, 82 cm long tank. I bought the two most different ones in the shop tank. They got on OK, no squabbling but no sign of spawning either. As they grew up, I realised they were two males. Six months later, I was in another shop where they'd just had a customer bring in some of their home bred Bolivians, and they were full grown. You could see the breeding tubes in over half the fish. I got 2 females after checking that I could not only take one of the females back but also one of the males I already had if it proved necessary.
As soon as I put the girls in the tank, world war three broke out. The two males went from being quite friendly in a platonic way to trying to kill each other. I had to put one of them in the quarantine tank to prevent a blood bath.
The remaining male divided his time between the two females - a few hours with one on the left of the tank, then a few hours with the other on the right side. I bought the girls on a Saturday; by Wednesday morning, the male had paired up with one female and they were making life difficult for the second female. She went into the QT with the other male. I had to wait until the following Saturday to take the rams in the QT back to the shop, and while we were out, the two in the 125 litre spawned. I came home to find eggs all over a rock.
Cora's new tank is bigger than my 125 litre. Not only in volume, but it has a bigger footprint, which is important for bottom dwelling fish.
But given how difficult it is to sex young Bolivian rams, I would suggest getting 6 to 8 of them but make sure the shop will take some back if they do what mine did. This is common advice with cichlids - buy several juveniles, let them chose their partners then rehome all but one pair. Cichlids that choose their own partners make better mates than any female and any male put in together. They are less likely to squabble - it is not unknown for one of them to kill the other if they didn't make their own choice.
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Could one keep a Bolivian Ram on its own?
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Yes, but it's not ideal. They do prefer some company.
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I love Rams - they're such a lovely looking fish. But I am now seriously considering not getting any. I do want a peaceful tank and a good home. Although, as Sue suggests, I was intending to get 8 of them anyway!
I went to the Blue Planet aquarium in Cheshire Oaks (near Chester) yesterday and saw a large tank full of soft water tetras from the Amazon. I kept on saying "I'm getting them...and those too!" Made me feel a lot better about my water conditions at home.
I will eventually post photos soon.
Update: the tank was delivered yesterday and I laid the compost (about 2cm) then gravel (another 2-3cm). I placed the bogwood and plants and have 3/4 filled with water. Unfortunately, a slip of the bucket disturbed a load of compost and the water is now very dirty and cloudy. I think it will settle anyway and it shouldn't make a difference to my cycling plan. But it means I want to hurry with setting up the filter and getting everything in situ so I can start with the ammonia. I have more plants to plant and it doesn't help that I can't see the substrate... :)
From tonight I'll be using a hose to supply water; I should have just waited for this instead of using buckets!
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Patience is not my strong point, and I have also fallen foul of the cloudy tank issues when rushing to get things done. Everything will settle and I'm looking forward to seeing your pictures. Seeing someone get a new tank is almost as exciting as getting a new tank myself. ;D
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Cora, have a look at apistogrammas. They like soft water and can look stunning too. The common ones in shops are A cacatuoides (cockatoo cichlid) and A agassizii; both are available in different colour forms. And some shops sell the blue A borelli. These are all harem fish; each male has a big territory which includes several smaller female territories. In 180 litres you could have 1 male 3 females. I have that number of agassiziis in my 180 litre.
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Hi Sue, that's a great shout - many thanks.
Here is a link to a public shared folder of Project Fishy 185 ;D :fishy1:
https://goo.gl/photos/ZLx8Za9jsMGSnhJ78
I'll add more frequently.
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Now that's a good lookin' tank. What make is it.... I can only recall it's 185litres?
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Hi Colin, I got the tank off eBay and can vouch for the seller and delivery time and quality. I think the tank is unbranded, and considering it comes with the stand included, the price is unbeatable.
Here is a link to the listing. The 185l is now sold out but there is a selection:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/86L-133L-185L-235L-Aquarium-Nano-Fish-Tank-Tropical-Coldwater-LED-Light-Cabinet-/222101955770?var=&hash=item33b64ee4ba
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I installed the APS 1400 external filter last night. Despite the warnings I'd been given with the priming it wasn't much effort at all.
However, my tank wasn't designed to take the input and output configuration of the filter. There are large holes at the top back of the tank either side for the necessary ingress and egress of tubing, but after that it gets tricky to position the input mechanism. Right now I just have the extraction tube stuck in the water! (The APS filter is great but the input column and spray bar feel like very cheap plastic. I will try to get a better one which fits.)
I added approx 6.0ml of ammonia solution to the water. The ammonia detector I have stuck to the tank turned a strong blue in a short space of time. If I had fishies in the water they would have been floating...
I didn't get the chance to test if I achieved 3 mg/L after 30 mins (friends around to watch the football last night --the less said about that the better. Fish are better than football teams; fish don't disappoint you :fishy1: )
I will use the fishless cyling procedure that Sue enumerated, once I can do a proper test on the current ammonia levels. I will also add a generous portion of the "quickstart" bacteria solutions to the filter media.
In related news, the tank is still very cloudy but you can almost make out all the content. This kind of fine dirty caused by compost isn't something I think the filter can efficiently remove. But, I don't think it will affect my cycle in any way, so I could continue as normal. Or, if the water still hasn't cleared considering in a day I'll do a big water change.
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For the first week or two, the ammonia level won't change much. Just make sure it's not above 4 ppm, and 3 is better.
If you want to use a bacterial starter Tetra Safe Start is the one to go for. It doesn't work every time but it does have the right species of nitrite eating bacteria.
But don't you have a smaller tank? The best way to kick start a cycle is by using mature media. If you take up to a third of the media from another tank, that will significantly reduce the cycle time. Swap some new media with old media from the other tank.
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Hi Sue. I do have an existing tank (70L Juwel) with internal filter but the media is set of sponges, black and blue. So unless I removed one of them I'd have to cut either in half. But you're right, using this media would be much much faster!
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If I were you I'd take one of the sponges from the 70L and squeeze it into the new tank. This will transfer far more bacteria than a 'quick-start' product.
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If I were you I'd take one of the sponges from there 70L and squeeze it into the new tank. This will transfer far more bacteria than a 'quick-start' product.
Nice one - ok will do.
Would it be better to squeeze it into the filter directly? (Either way, good idea.)
I managed to spend some time on lunch fitting the intake column correctly. I think I've combined connecting pieces from two kits because my column is now too long to go straight down but rather stretches diagonally alongside the far right wall. I am ok with this. 1. I had to secure some lines together which I have no intention of disassembling and 2. Plants will hide it anyway.
This has cheered me up a bit because I was worried about the intake.
Next step will be to reconnect the outlet spray bar; at the moment it's sat near the top and it's quite loud. There is too much water disturbance for my liking (and for my fishes' and plants' too I would think!). How far above the surface do you guys fix your bar? I'm thinking just marginally above to create movement but little noise.
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You could place it below the water surface and pointing up. This will give you water disturbance without noise disturbance.
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You could place it below the water surface and pointing up. This will give you water disturbance without noise disturbance.
The holes in the pipes are not aligned along one side, unfortunately. But I will do this when a get a better bar :)
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If anyone's interested, here is a list of plants for my tank, most of which I already have.
With one exception all plants' requirements are low CO2, low light. Most are medium to quick growers.
I intend to dose with liquid CO2 and a tiny amount of plant food during the cycling process.
Alternanthera Rosaefolia (red) x 1 focal point (requires more care)
Amazon frogbit (floating)
Dwarf water lettuce (pistia stratiotes) floating
Moss balls (Cladophora) x 10 (front surface)
Cryptocoryne willisii x 2 (short creeping / foreground)
LIMNOPHILA SESSILIFLORA x 2 (fore/mid ground)
Vallisneria spiralis x 10 (tall straight / background)
Anubias heterophylla x 1 (focal point mid/background)
LINDERNIA ROTUNDIFOLIA x 2 (medium height, fore/mid)
CABOMBA CAROLINIANA x 10 (mid/background)
Amazon Sword ( Echinodorus bleheri) x 10 (background)
Elodea densa (background)
Guppy grass ( Najas Guadalupensis) (foreground / on wood)
I'm going to see what works and what doesn't. I want a very natural and dark theme - bogwoods and greens against black. The Alternanthera Rosaefolia will provide the only non-green plant as an off-centre focal point.
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mmmm..... I don't think you want 10 Amazon Swords, there'll be no room for anything else!
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mmmm..... I don't think you want 10 Amazon Swords, there'll be no room for anything else!
There are literally 10 blades, I should clarify; not ten entire planted Amazons.
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I intend to dose with liquid CO2 and a tiny amount of plant food during the cycling process.
You have just reminded me of something I read recently. With very soft water like yours, adding plant fertilser helps with cycling as it contains trace elements for the bacteria as well as plants.
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I intend to dose with liquid CO2 and a tiny amount of plant food during the cycling process.
You have just reminded me of something I read recently. With very soft water like yours, adding plant fertilser helps with cycling as it contains trace elements for the bacteria as well as plants.
That's great to know, cheers! :)
The bicarb and inline heater will go in this evening, after I've done a substantial water change to purify it (it's still very cloudy).
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You'll need to add iron to keep the Alternanthera Rosaefolia red, it'll go a khaki brown without it and I hate to be a pedant :-[ but Vallisneria spiralis, is twisted vallis, you've probably got Vallisneria Americana if it's got straight leaves. :)
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.....and I hate to be a pedant.....
No you don't! :)) :)) :))
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You'll need to add iron to keep the Alternanthera Rosaefolia red, it'll go a khaki brown without it and I hate to be a pedant :-[ but Vallisneria spiralis, is twisted vallis, you've probably got Vallisneria Americana if it's got straight leaves. :)
I thought the "spiralis" part of the name refers to the root shape not the leafs. I read about this and Vallisneria spiralis is apparently: "Vallisneria spiralis, also known as straight vallisneria, tape grass, or eel grass is a common aquarium plant that prefers good light and a nutrient rich substrate. In the wild, it can be found in tropical and sub-tropical regions worldwide." Wikipedia
Will the fertiliser not contain iron? (I can check.) But thanks for the heads up - I'll keep this in mind for those red leaves :)
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The "spiralis" part is the flower stem. My Vallis arrived with the remanant of a flower stem and it was very spirally.
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.....and I hate to be a pedant.....
No you don't! :)) :)) :))
Oh yes I do :P
The "spiralis" part is the flower stem. My Vallis arrived with the remanant of a flower stem and it was very spirally.
Well you live and learn thankee :)
I can't recall the name of the ferts I used to use but there wasn't enough iron in it to keep all the leaves red. The new ones came out red and then faded out to khaki brown. I now use Easy Life Ferro as well and it's made a massive difference
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Tank almost filled with dechlorinated water after setting up the plants and wood.
External filter - one whole tray filled with bacteria and gunk from my sister's established tank.
Filter re-activated and working perfectly. Inline heater activated shortly after and set to 30 degrees celsius.
My sister removed the carbonate stone from my filter by accident. Not wishing to restart the whole thing I've just put the rock in a filter bag and hung it in the water. Water was initially slightly acidic but is rising slowly.
Liquid CO2 and fertiliser added to water in slightly above-regular doses.
6ml of ammonia solution (Jeyes Kleen Off) added to water. After 30 minutes a reading of between 4-8 mg/L was recorded. Will test again in 24 hours for ammonia and nitrite.
Shared Google album updated with more pics: https://goo.gl/photos/ZLx8Za9jsMGSnhJ78
The water isn't very clear just yet but I'm pleased with the layout and when the water clears and it gets dark tonight I'll take another photo. Got plans this Friday evening guys? Cancel them! PROJECT: FISHY 185 is up and running! :fishy1:
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Got plans this Friday evening guys? Cancel them! PROJECT: FISHY 185 is up and running! :fishy1:
This is great - I'm loving the detailed updates and the pics. Keep 'em coming... :fishy1:
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After 30 minutes a reading of between 4-8 mg/L was recorded. Will test again in 24 hours for ammonia and nitrite.
If it is still that high, I would do a water change to reduce it. You only need 3ppm for cycling. The reason this amount is used is to stop nitrite getting too high. [And mg/l is the same as ppm]
1 ppm ammonia is turned into 2.7 ppm nitrite. Once the ammonia eaters start to eat the ammonia, nitrite goes up quickly. At around 15 ppm, nitrite inhibits the growth of the nitrite eaters. The problem is that most test kits can't measure that high, and doing tests on diluted samples needs a source of pure water and very accurate measuring equipment. The old methods of fishless cycling took ages because of the way ammonia was dosed (it used to be add ammonia every time it drops to zero) because those old methods made a huge amount of nitrite. The chap who invented the fishless cycling method I wrote up on here used amounts of ammonia that will never make enough nitrite to stall the cycle if the method is followed to the letter.
You'll still find those older methods on websites. Some have you dosing ammonia to 5 ppm but it now known that a suitably stocked tankful of fish doesn't make even 3 ppm in 24 hours. It used to be thought that the bacteria would die if they went for 24 hours without food - it is now known they can go for much longer. After a week or two they become dormant, only dying after several months. It is this newer knowledge that allowed the chap to devise the fishless cycling method on here.
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Following your progress with enthusaism, Cora, good luck with the fishless cycle... Similar to my own which was fairly straightforward and relatively quick. I'm a bit envious of your arrangement of plants. And that is a stunning tank 8) 8) 8)
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Sue, many thanks once again for your advice :)
Following your progress with enthusaism, Cora, good luck with the fishless cycle... Similar to my own which was fairly straightforward and relatively quick. I'm a bit envious of your arrangement of plants. And that is a stunning tank 8) 8) 8)
Considering I am learning so much from scratch (when I kept fish as a teenager I was oblivious to so much I should have known), I am really pleased with how I've planned this tank and the plants I've bought. I do think the aquascape looks very nice, and when the water clears I'll send another pic - I can't wait.
On that subject of ignorance, the fisherkeeper from whom I bought my initial batch a few weeks ago -- there was no consideration at all of water hardness and carbonates, and yet the subject turned to this immediately on this forum. Why would a professional fish breeder and seller not advise (or know) that mixing soft water fish with hard water fish wouldn't be a problem, or even worth mentioning?
I think this website and the forum should be required reading for aquarists everywhere! I'm just glad I was directed here and learned as much as I did before I put any (more) fish through distress or worse. And now I know better I can give the lucky occupants of Project 185 I good home. Soon :)
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It's great to see your pictures. Very nice tank. ;D
I was at one of the LFS this afternoon and a guy came in to say that his fish weren't well. Talking to staff afterwards and it turns out he'd been rinsing his filter in tap water. At least his fish should start feeling better soon, now that things have been explained to him. Sometimes it can be pot luck with fish shops. I think we assume that the people selling us the fish know what they are doing, but sometimes they don't.
This forum is so useful, I was on it for ages as a guest before I joined, and being a complete newbie to fish keeping it was, and still is, an awesome source of information.
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Update : Sue, before I could take your advice, the ammonia reading has now dropped considerably to no more than 0.2 ppm. This is in about eight hours. Proper test to follow tomorrow.
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That sounds like the stuff from your sister's tank is working. Check your nitrite level as the two colonies don't always keep in sync. And also your nitrate level, remembering to subtract any nitrate in your tap water so you can tell if the tank nitrate has gone up.
If you find nitrite is at the top of the scale at any stage, it is worth diluting a sample of tank water with tap water, say 50:50 or even 25:75 tank:tap. This won't give a very accurate result but you'll be able to tell if the tank nitrite is under 15 or over 15.
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Just tested properly and ammonia is still high. About 2.0 but not as high as yesterday. Nitrites are at zero. It's been 18 hours since the first dose though. I guess it's just waiting now... Do nothing for another day I guess.
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Using mature media or squeezings does make the cycle go faster, so you don't need to stick 100% to the method. I would test again tomorrow - 48 hours after adding ammonia - and see what the results are.
If you get ammonia under 0.75 and nitrite over 2.0, go from stage 6 in the method.
If ammonia is below 0.25 and nitrite below 1.0, go from stage 10.
Especially if nitrate is increasing.
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Nitrates are zero.
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Hmmmm.....
OK first thing to ask, did you shake the one bottle the instructions say to? That is very important. In fact, shake it more than it says to. Failure to shake it is the most common cause of false nitrate readings.
If you did shake it, the ammonia must have gone somewhere.
How are the plants doing, nice and lush? Plants actually prefer ammonia as a food source. It is possible to do something called a silent cycle. This is using plants to remove the ammonia and nitrite is not made. But its main requirement is lots, and I mean lots, of healthy well growing plants. The danger comes in assuming that a few straggly plants will replace the need for filter bacteria, but provided the plants are numerous and growing well, they can indeed replace the need for filter bacteria.
Your plants are all quite small at the moment, but there are lots of them. Work on the assumption that a lot of the ammonia was taken up by the plants and the rest by your sister's contributions. And that there are enough nitrite eaters to remove the nitrite made from the ammonia the plants didn't get. Then possibly the plants removed the nitrate made by the nitrite eaters.
Whatever is actually happening, I would keep on with the fishless cycle till you are sure. The last thing you need is to assume the cycle has finished and get fish only to find ammonia and/or nitrite showing up. By using the bottle of ammonia instead of fish to add ammonia to the tank, nothing will die as a result of something going awry.
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Ok, 36 hours in:
Ammonia:3-4 ppm
Nitrite: 0.25 ppm
Nitrate: 0 ppm
What I think I've done is added too much ammonia in my very first dose and that has inhibited the development of nitrite eaters.
I've not added any ammonia in 36 hours and (despite the alarm which sucks onto the aquarium and was reliable at first) the ammonia levels have only slightly dropped.
But, at least nitrite is going up whereas yesterday it was zero.
My water pH is a very steady 7, so I don't think the water is too acidic for the bacteria.
Sue, based on what you said above, if there is still ammonia in the water - the ammonia eaters still just need more time to grow?
Most of my plants are looking good, and there are a lot of them. Some aren't looking so good (I think the wear and tear of transport and being transplanted several days has taken its toll, but that's ok, I got loads on the assumption I'd lose some).
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Paddy found it did take a short while to cycle even using his friend's mature media, longer than a few days.
Since you added a lot of ammonia at the start, either do a 50% water change (and I have a 180 litre tank so I realise that is not something anyone would want to do) or wait it out.
For the latter, since your ammonia reading is what the fishless cycling method starts with, go from the beginning. But since you did use something to kick start the cycle, instead of testing every third day test every 2 days. Once the ammonia level drops below 0.75, report back with your nitrite and nitrate readings and we can see what to do next.
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Cora when I cycled my shrimpery I had added a small amount of mature media to the filter and I think it took 10 days from start to finish, I'll double check in a moment.
edited to add: it took 23 days. I added 4 pieces of mature ceramic media into the cavity as thats all I could fit in and tied a piece of foam from the old filter to the side.
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Cheers, Fiona. Cheers, Sue.
I won't change the water just yet because I haven't got an efficient syphon for that tank. I've got some much larger tubing in the post which I can run from the tank right out into the garden drain. So I'll wait it out for a few days and test again.
I'll report back with readings tomorrow.
I want to send a proper photo of the tank but the water isn't very clear. It's not particularly cloudy and you can't see particulate matter, but it's definitely not clear. I think it's still just settling in. When it gets dark later I'll try another pic.
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Also, I removed the carbon from my external filter as per Sue's advice on other threads. Perhaps the carbon might have helped slightly the clarity, but it doesn't really matter since after the cycle I'll change it all anyway. Just thought I would add that FYI.
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The cloudiness could be a bacterial bloom which is very common in new tanks, it should clear eventually. It was probably triggered when the soil got disturbed.
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That makes me feel better, Fiona :)
I've been doing some YouTube watching for inspiration and I'm now thinking of dropping one of my 'ten' batch of one species and converting it to a 20 batch of another. Shoals of 10 are great but a shoal of 20 would be even more impressive. Perhaps swap the 10 glowlight tetras for another 10 cardinals... Just thinking aloud
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Personally being a glowlight tetra owner I'd dump those and increase the cardinals. Glowlights are quite pretty but they tend to lurk in the plants a lot and you don't really see them, a shoal of 20 cardinals is a pretty impressive sight and one I'm aiming for. I've got 11 in the QT and I'll be getting more eventually.
One of the shops I visit has a square 300l tank filled with plants, a large shoal of cardinals, a small shoal of boesemani rainbow fish and dwarf suckermouths and it's very very striking.
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We're on the same fishy page :)
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I've got some much larger tubing in the post which I can run from the tank right out into the garden drain.
ooo - don't waste the water. Put it on the veg bed, house plants or flower bed. My dwarf apple tree in a container thrives on the tank water change water.
Just a thought! ;D
20 cardinal tetras would make an impressive shoal. I saw a large shoal of Rosy Tetras in a heavily planted tank and they looked stunning.
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Once I get the whitespot eliminated, I'm thinking of a couple of dozen green neon tetras (cousins of cardinal tetras) if I can find any to add to the 9 I already have. If I can't find any, then about 15 cardinals, plus the 9 green neons.
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It's now about 66 hours since the initial (over)dose of Ammonia.
Ammonia: 2.0 ppm (perhaps slightly more)
Nitrites: 0.5 ppm (perhaps slightly more)
Nitrates: 0 ppm (the reading only displays increments of 5ppm so it could be somewhere between 0 and 4 I suppose...)
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Carry on testing every 48 hours until ammonia has dropped below 0.75 and see what the nitrite level is. I'm suggesting every second day rather than every third because of the 'stuff' from your sister's tank.
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Will do.
I've just changed 10% of the water and topped up with 20-30% fresh (the tank wasn't full originally). It's still not full now but the ammonia should be much more diluted. I'll test ammonia again today out of curiosity to see what the dilution has done. Then I'll keep testing every 48 hours, cheers.
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Good plan :) Too much ammonia will potentially mean too much nitrite and the cycle will stall if it gets too high. I know this because I did it by trying to cycle the tank from memory. ::) Once I'd done a partial water change to get nitrites down the cycle restarted. Thank goodness for Sue is all I can say :)
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I've seen Osmocote and Miracle Gro and other similar plant fertilisers recommended online, in small amounts, mixed in with substrate. Leaving aside whether one needs additional fertilising agents or not, I was worried because these products contact phosphates, something I thought was a no-no for aquarium fertilisers.
There are some who claim to use these products without any problems, but all the bespoke aquarium plant foods you see don't contain phosphates. I am thinking about 6-monthly and annual boosts for the plants. For example, Tetra Initial Sticks you can plug into the substrate and these are safe.
But, I'd rather use a much cheaper fertiliser in bulk which does the same job - but without phosphorus compounds.
And I'm not sure if it's even necessary as I have liquid plant food to use weekly. But as plants absorb nutrients through their roots I'd rather not be dosing the water with chemicals if I can help it.
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Answered my own question: I'd just play it safe and go with branded aquarium tablets for plants. For the sake of a few quid it's not worth the risk.
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There're a series of 4 articles here (http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/beginner-planted-aquarium/basic-approach-natural-planted-aquarium-367154/) about the natural planted tank that are an interesting read. Grab a coffee (or wait 'till after 5pm and grab a wine :)) ) and read on.
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Cheers, Colin. There's my evening sorted :)
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Just a note on my fish choice, in case it's gotten lost since: with the Bolivian Rams, despite them being pair-forming, for reasons discussed earlier, I intend to get 1 male and 3 female. Do people agree this is the best way to go with them?
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Ammonia: 2.0
Nitrites: 0.5
Nitrates 0.0
I think what little nitrate is being produced is being eaten by the plants hence the zero reading. Ammonia is coming down but even despite the water change is happening slowly.
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There is one big problem with deciding on 1m 3f Bolivian rams. The fish in the shops are juveniles and extremely hard to sex. With these fish the only reliable way is by the shape of the breeding tube, and the ones in the shops are unlikely to be old enough for this method yet.
However, should you find a shop that has Bolivians with visible breeding tubes, males are the ones with small breeding tubes that taper to a point. Females have larger tubes that are the same width all the way down. If you think about what has to pass down the tubes, you'll see the reason for the shapes ;)
I'm attaching 2 photos of the Bolivian rams I had years ago. They were taken as they were spawning so the female's breeding tube is a bit bigger than usual but the pics do show the difference.
Keep on testing every 48 hours till the ammonia reading is below 0.75 :)
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Ammonia is coming down but even despite the water change is happening slowly.
Patience Grasshopper ;) It took me 40+ days to cycle my first tank
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Ammonia is coming down but even despite the water change is happening slowly.
Patience Grasshopper ;) It took me 40+ days to cycle my first tank
Haha :)
This morning: Ammonia 2.0 ppm. Nitrites - I swear these have dropped to 0.25.
Sue, your rams are beautiful :) Such a pretty fish. I've requested from the fish keeper that he get the rams sexed (he's very experienced). If not I'll take a larger group. Or choose something else.
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Update: I have decided on a different aquascape and arrangement of plants. To make it easier to setup and install the new plants I've drained most of the water off, will do the necessary work today, then refill.
I'm already going ahead with this because it will be worth it, and now's the best time! I'm just wondering what the effects on the cycle will be. I might lose bacteria on existing surfaces but the filter should be fine.
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If it's any help, you are doing this at the right time.
I set up my tanks with silk plants, and have had the hassle of moving fish around tanks to be able to change the substrate and install live plants. My filters were put into other tanks while I was planting, then put back into the original tank. I found that it didn't impact on the performance of the bacteria in the filter and everything kept running as before. Admittedly, this was with tanks that had completed cycling, and been up and running for several months, but things seemed to go quite well.
I have now replanted 3 of my tanks (2 temperate and 1 betta, which has since had half a dozen panda cory added) and the fish seem to prefer the live plants as they seem to be easier to swim through.
I'm now in the process of replanting my 125L tank and next I'll be changing my axolotl tanks to live plants.
Best of luck with your planting & cycling, I'm sure it will all be fine. :)
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oooo - an excuse for more piccies. Grand!
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Cheers guys :)
I tried to upload a pic yesterday but it failed. You're missing out on so many! But don't worry - you'll see everything eventually.
I always planned to go with live plants in this tank - but because of the number of planets and the layout I need to re-scape. I love the "underwater jungle" look in other peoples' tanks but I must say - it seems to really dominate the tank and obscure the fish. I want to plant in such a way that it's dense but not opaque! The more I read, the more I'm sure you can't have too many live plants - but because I don't intend to add CO2* I need a good substrate.
*E.g. diffuser etc. I will add liquid CO2 but when I'm fully stocked the fish should generate enough.
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I always planned to go with live plants in this tank - but because of the number of planets and the layout I need to re-scape.
Indeed - having planets in your tank does take up a lot of room. :))
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:rotfl:
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Update:
The water was drained to almost nothing.
Some old gravel removed. Most remained to form a new bottom later.
Tetra Live Substrate (not Complete) added as new top layer. In total this brings my substrate to a good 8-10cm. (I must say, this is a lovely rich brown colour that feels very natural and goes well with wood and plants. It does require extensive rinsing though!)
Bogwood drastically re-arranged to form a much more interesting aquascape - and giving much needed height to the tank.
The big Anubias has been "replanted" into the tall bogwood (apparently it doesn't grow well in substrate). Dead plants removed. Dying shoots cut back. Carpet grass replanted. Amazon sword planted in opposite back corners. I am going to get even more (yes, you heard me) Amazon sword for the back corners to occlude the filter intake in one corner, and create a "hill" for emergent Amazons in the other.
Tomorrow I am visiting The Green Machine (check out their videos on YouTube) to look at their display tanks and purchase more plants.
External filter activated and running well. Inline heater activated and set to 30 degrees.
Several generous pieces of calcium carbonate rock added to filter cannister, as well as Evolution Aqua Pure balls. This is to boost the KH of my pathetically low KH very soft water.
Also, I'm testing an idea: a Fluval Mini (it really is tiny) installed at the bottom back of the tank (you won't be able to see it eventually and you can't hear it) containing two small pieces of wool to keep the contents from rattling around. The contents? Another collection of Aqua Pure balls and half a dozen carbon dioxide tablets. This is my make-shift CO2 dosing until fish arrive; the tablets decompose slowly and the filter mechanism should provide a good constant flow of water across the tablets and balls. It might be a stupid idea but I thought it was worth a try.
Water test. Nitrites: zero. (That's to be expected after a complete water change.) Ammonia: 0.25ppm. A little surprising to get a non-zero reading but it's not a bad thing. I should have a good colony of bacteria in my filter now, so there's no chance that I've reset the cycle.*
Next steps:
>Tetra Initial Sticks to be added to the substrate. I will do this tomorrow as the dechlorinator used today can kill the minerals in fertiliser (and remains active for up to 24 hours in water).
>Buy more plants.
>Post pics.
>*However, they will have not much to feed on so I will dose with ammonia tomorrow, but this time only a tiny amount.
:fishy1: :cheers: :fishy1:
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Wow - you have been a busy girl. I'm looking forward to the piccies.
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Yeah, piccies. ;D
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A reminder that you can see the album here: https://goo.gl/photos/ZLx8Za9jsMGSnhJ78
But I will post directly into the chat later tonight when the sun goes down and the tank shows up better.
Right now it's in that phase where everything is giving off bubbles - the plants especially. Temp is already 25 degrees. Looking much better than it did.
Cheers :)
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Oooh, very nice. I like the planting, it's looking really good. 8)
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Oh, and oddly enough my pH is 7.8 :-\ That is unusual for my water.
I'll see if it drops tomorrow.
And cheers Littlefish :)
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Pics
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Very nice.
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Very nice.
The only thing, I can't quite make out if those pinky/purple plants are real or silk, if they're real they aren't aquatic plants and will likely die off quite quickly.
Lots of LFS sell certain species of plants that aren't true aquatic plants.
They look nice under water but they don't grow.
I took mine back to the LFS and they replaced them with aquatic plants.
Most of us on this forum have been caught out in the same way. :)
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oooo - that's nice, that is. I love the floaty bag filling thing - very smart. That's going to be a stunning tank.
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The only thing, I can't quite make out if those pinky/purple plants are real or silk, if they're real they aren't aquatic plants and will likely die off quite quickly.
It's Alternanthera Rosaefolia.
I bought it off eBay. I hope this link works: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/281062537544?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&var=580178721736&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
Apparently it's aquatic but requires iron and other dosing to grow properly and stay red. But of course, I could be wrong and been sold a dud ;D
Hi Colin - I can't claim credit for the bag; I've seen it used by several aquascapers on YouTube. Many times I've made the mistake of filling quickly and blasting the gravel. Not this time. This indirect filling keeps everything calm. It also allows a fine film of muck/sediment to form on the surface (instead of clouding the water) which you can skim off easily.
Off to buy more plants today!
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Still a nifty idea for filling the tank.
Enjoy your plant shopping.
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It's Alternanthera Rosaefolia.
I bought it off eBay. I hope this link works: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/281062537544?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&var=580178721736&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
Apparently it's aquatic but requires iron and other dosing to grow properly and stay red. But of course, I could be wrong and been sold a dud ;D
My mistake. Hopefully it'll do well. :cheers:
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It's Alternanthera Rosaefolia.
Apparently it's aquatic but requires iron and other dosing to grow properly and stay red. But of course, I could be wrong and been sold a dud ;D
I have a clump in my shrimpery as a focal point, it's a lovely plant when it's growing well.
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Merry Bank Holiday all :)
Update:
Ammonia: 0.5
Nitrite: 2.0 at least (I was shocked)
Nitrates: 0.0 (yup, as usual)
I've never seen the ammonia so low and the nitrites so high.
The aquascaping has finished - all plants have been installed. The tank looks really nice and I'm pleased with it.
I bought ADU iron-bottom multi nutrient sticks and planted them at strategic points throughout the substrate.
I'll send another pic when it gets dark.
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You are now at #6 in the method in the cycling section. So add the amount of ammonia that gives 3 ppm and test every 48 hours till you get zero ammonia then zero ammonia again 2 days later. You need two zeros, two days apart.
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Will do, cheers :)
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Update (I know it's not been 48h :) )
Ammonia: 0.5
Nitrites: 2.0+ probably higher.
It seemed to me the ammonia wasn't as green as yesterday and the nitrite was a deeper purple.
Nitrates were probably not a zero, but somewhere between 0 and 5; hard to tell with such tiny volumes - it probably doesn't matter - and my numerous plants should eat the NH3 and NO3 quickly anyway.
Though if you believe Diana Walstad (with whom I've been impressed) plants' preferance for their N is:
NH3 > NO2 > NO3
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We all (well I do) test before 48 hours at this point. ;D
I'm quite impatient and have found that sitting in front of the tank and having a good stare at it doesn't help it to cycle any quicker.
I've also found that it doesn't encourage the plants that I put in the tank this morning to grow any quicker either.
Doesn't stop me from doing it though. :)
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- and my numerous plants should eat the NH3 and NO3 quickly anyway.
Umm I think you'd need a heck of a lot more plants before they made any significant impact on your water parameters. Have a look at Richard's tank, that's the level of planting you'd need.
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We all (well I do) test before 48 hours at this point. ;D
I'm quite impatient and have found that sitting in front of the tank and having a good stare at it doesn't help it to cycle any quicker.
I've also found that it doesn't encourage the plants that I put in the tank this morning to grow any quicker either.
Doesn't stop me from doing it though. :)
:rotfl:
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Update:
Ammonia: < 0.5 (probably 0.25)
Nitrites: > 2.0
Nitrates: didn't bother.
Dosed with Ammonia (<= 4.0ml). Such a tiny amount, yet the tank water smelled of ammonia only a few minutes later. As foul as ammonia is, it's redolent of high school chemistry, a subject I used to love. Hated PE, hated RE, but couldn't wait for Chemistry and Physics to come around.
Had an algae bloom yesterday. The obvious causes are always: too much nutrient or too much light (or both). It could be high nutrients (ADA iron-bottom sticks) but I do have lots of hungry plants. I think it's just too much light. I'm now draping big black towels over the tank so I can control the light. For now, I'm thinking of allowing just 5-6 hours a day in the evening.
Edited to add: I'm also concerned that I have insufficient flow in my tank. Low flow is preferable for the plants and fish I have (and will have) but I'm reminded of what Sue said earlier in this thread about the low effective rates of cannister filters when full with media. My APS is stated at 1400 l/H but it's probably half that, at best. Even with the spray bar underwater there is almost no discernible flow. The water and tank's contents just look static and I'm not sure that nutrients and fresh water will be flowing around the whole tank.
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If there is almost no water flow, I would check the filter. You have done some 'messing' with the tank of late and could well have churned up some debris which could be clogging the filter. If you find the media covered with stuff, you need to clean it. Take some water from the tank and very gently swoosh any ceramic media in the water then squeeze any sponges. You want to get rid of the goo without dislodging any bacteria. Newly forming bacterial colonies are quite delicate.
I don't know what exactly is inside your filter but there might be something that looks a bit like pillow stuffing. That is filter floss or filter wool and it won't wash properly without going holey and shapeless. As bacteria don't colonise this well, it can be replaced without doing too much harm. For future reference, it is much cheaper to buy filter wool off a roll and cut it to shape using a branded pad as a template. You can get sheets of it from shops selling pond equipment or on-line.
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Hi Sue
If I can remember off the top of my head, the filter contains, in descending order:
crushed carbonate rock in a fine filter bag, on top of a plastic grid, then:
The first compartment:
two large bags of ceramic media side by side, which sit on top of:
filter wool, which sits on a plastic grid.
The second compartment:
two bags of plastic "bio balls", on top of:
filter wool, which sits on a plastic grid.
The third compartment:
(contained two large bags of activated carbon, but I removed these)
Another two bags of ceramic media (this is the stuff lifted from my sister's tank - heavily colonised one would hope)
I have a meter length of filter floss/wool that I'll use to replace the existing stuff as-and-when.
I was thinking of removing the spray bar and having a single outlet in the corner. I'm sure this would provide more force.
But I will clean the filter anyway and see if the flow improves.
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Is your spray bar clean and the holes all clear?
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Is your spray bar clean and the holes all clear?
Yes it's in great condition - although being APS the entire outlet apparatus is plastic and rather cheap. I'm not convinced it's air-tight so I don't think the flow along the bar is as forceful as it should be. However the overall force should be the same - I just think it's being dissipated.
Oh, I forgot to add: I have an inline heater. I don't know if this would restrict flow, but it wouldn't surprise me.
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Oh, I forgot to add: I have an inline heater. I don't know if this would restrict flow, but it wouldn't surprise me.
It probably will as the water has to spend time in contact with the heating element for it to heat up. If it's anything like electric showers then the warmer you want the water then the slower the flow has to be. You could tun it down to minimum temp. for a while to see if the flow increases.
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Cheers, Colin. It's at 30 degrees right now, which is a temperature more conducive to bacterial growth (so I'm told :P ). When it's cycled I'll turn it down to 24. You're right - I'm sure the higher the temp the slower the flow.
Update:
I dosed with Ammonia yesterday lunch-time, but I tested again this morning:
Ammonia: ~0
Nitrites: >= 4.0
Nitrates: who cares
Because I probably underdosed yesterday (with good reason...) I dosed again this morning. Probably only 1.0ml (used a measuring cap not a syringe, because once I have squirted ammonia out the bottle I can't put it back). This is almost certainly below the required dose in ~180L of water (the tank isn't full) but after the first time around I'm being more cautious.
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FYI, I'm going to use Potassium Bicarbonate to up the KH instead of bicarb of soda. From my research the buffering effect will be the same, but whereas sodium is useless to all aquatic life, potassium isn't. Of course for the cycling stage it doesn't matter since the water will get changed anyway; I'm talking about future boosts to the KH if necessary, when the tank is established (e.g. during water changes.)
Any opinions on this are welcome!
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I've also read about using potassium carbonate (K2CO3) with fish in the tank but I'd still rather use calcium carbonate. Calcium and magnesium are found in natural water sources, with larger amounts in hard water areas, but not much potassium. Increasing that will still make the water 'unnatural' as with sodium.
The water quality report for my area includes sodium but not potassium so I don't know what the max allowed K is in drinking water. But the data is for human consumption, not fish :-\
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Seems I had a dumb moment and forgot about Calcium Carbonate! Yes, this would of course be best.
I suppose the preference would be: CaCo3 > K2CO3 > NaHCO3
I'll obtain CaCo3 for solution (water changes) but I prefer a rock in the filter to permanently boost the KH. My KH has gone up a degree last time I checked (from <=1 to at least 2!) but this is still dangerously low, especially if I add CO2 for the plants, which I intend to (in the day).
Edited to add: I'm probably really overthinking all this! If I use CO2 only when the lights are on and do water changes I shouldn't be in danger of a pH crash.
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CaCO3 is not very soluble which is why it has to be something solid kept inside the tank so it can dissolve slowly.
My KH is 3 german deg and as long as I change at least 25% every week my pH doesn't crash. It did several years ago when I was somewhat overstocked and lazy about water changes (once every 3 to 4 weeks :-[ )
Plants only take up carbon dioxide in the light, they make it during darkness. Actually they make it during light as well it's just they use more than they make. So yes, turn the CO2 off when the lights are out. But if someone who knows about plants says otherwise, listen to them not me ;D
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Hated PE, hated RE, but couldn't wait for Chemistry and Physics to come around.
Sounds like me only my favourite subjects were chemistry biology and maths :)
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Sounds like me only my favourite subjects were chemistry biology and maths :)
I discovered I enjoyed maths when I studied Physics. I think this is because here maths is practically applied.
I am/have been a fan of almost all sciences, including biology and astronomy. I can't think of anything more interesting and life-affirming than understanding why everything in nature works the way it does. We live in a golden age of information which I think, sadly, is taken for granted.
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I'd suggest getting your tank up and running for a while and monitor things before you start adding this and that. I've never added anything to any of my tanks except water conditioner (apart from ammonia for the cycling). There are lots of people who like fiddling and diddling with their tanks, but it is rarely really necessary.
If you have a good stock of fish then your plants shouldn't need any added carbon dioxide. Fish produce plenty. Most aquarium plants can also use bicarbonate. Why add something and complicate matters until you are sure you need to?
Remember an aquarium is a living system and like many it doesn't always respond to things the way chemistry says it should. Sometimes in the opposite way "the counterintuitive behaviour of complex systems". Many mathematicians, physicists and chemists have tried to explain and control biological systems with equations and precise measurements but they always fail.
I cycled all of my 9 tanks quickly just by squirting in some ammonia every day or so, never measured anything until I thought the cycle was finished (which it always was). They key wasn't in the exact measurements and monitoring but in making sure there was enough "gunk" present initially to have a decent starter of bacteria.
I'm also a scientist by nature I think, but working in ecology (mainly entomology) I also understand that you can't always be precise with ecosystems. I also have a fascination for logic, which does annoy people at times, they hate being told that their cherished belief is in fact based on fallacious reasoning. That's proper logic, not the Mr Spock "logic versus emotion" idea!
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I've also had a big interest in philosophy, which involved becoming good at critical thinking and understanding logical fallacies. Also, years of arguing with people from across the political and religious spectra have probably helped too :P
I will have a good stock of fish but at the moment the tank is empty. I've managed to get a cheap CO2 system which I could use for a few weeks which should greatly help the plants during cycling.
But I take your points on board and I completely agree. I actually don't want to be a fiddler and if I can grow a well-planted tank without additional CO2 and messing around then so much the better. I actually want to set this aquarium up and spend time looking at it, not playing with it. But if I can have lush pearling plants and keep the fish safe, for a reasonable cost in CO2, so much the better!
Your fascination for logic would never annoy me :D I think rationality is the more important virtue and one should always think logically and critically! And as you point out, the logic-versus-emotion dichotomy is a false one.
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Update:
I removed the spray bar and it's made a world of difference to the flow: the single outlet is submerged about 10cm below the waterline and slightly angled toward the back of the tank. This is creating quite a strong flow in a clockwise direction around the aquarium. The floating plants are getting bunched up in pockets of flow though, which is unsightly. :-[ I may remove the hornwort (it keeps sinking) but leave the frogbit.
Maybe it's a psychological thing but seeing a flow in the tank makes it look healthier. It's not strong enough to blow plants sideways but many of them are swaying pleasantly. I don't know how strong the current would be for all those small fishies though! I'll have to wait and see. I could point the flow upward but then I'd have greater surface agitation, which I'm trying to avoid.
I installed my Fluval CO2 88 (which I got for a good price). It's so easy to setup and looks great. As it happens, the new flow from my outlet catches the CO2 micro bubbles and spreads them out and across the tank. I noticed another algae bloom yesterday so I concluded that the tank is just getting too much light! So in this delicate settling-in period I've covered the thing in thick black towels. I will then allow 5-6 hours of light + CO2 when I come home. (If I decide to stick with the Fluval system I think it would cost me ~£10/month, which is far less than I spend on wine :cheers: But, this is only an experiment and I'm sure there are much cheaper solutions.)
Remember that I dosed a tiny volume of ammonia yesterday midday - remember that! I had a final batch of plants (crpyts) to plug into my tank followed with fert sticks. I also repositioned a java fern (I think it is!) from the substrate (noob) to a bit of wood (pro). I've taken a few pics which I'll post in a bit (keep checking back!)
I also trimmed any bad leaves and did a tidy up. So I had my hands in the water quite a bit. I stood back and admired my handiwork - pleased.
Then it was onto the existing 70L tank for maintenance. I emptied 50% of the water this time and gave the gravel a good hoover. I've treated the fishies recently to daphnia and tubifex (which was a wonderful experience! I've never seen them all congregate together and feast so hungrily!) - but the results have been egregiously manifest on the gravel! I will say no more ;) Actually I will say one more thing: how can something so small poo something so big?! Extrapolating to human terms, I would be on the toilet for 3 weeks... (Too uncouth for this time in the morning? Apologies! :rotfl: )
I gave the filters a good squeeze and replaced the filter, with one major exception: because this 70L is overstocked and underplanted, I purchased a small amount of Seachem Purigen which sits in a micron-hole bag in the middle in the filter. This is the stuff which adsorbs nitrogenous compounds; it's also supposed to be a water polisher and clarifier. In this tank I don't care if it competes with the bacteria because these fishies will be moving house soon anyway. I had some surplus live plants which I decided to put into this tank too. All finished, tank water replenished. Fishies were massively spooked by all the commotion so I left the lights off so they could relax for the evening.
I should add that between tanks I always wash my hands. But when I sat down to relax I noticed my fingers were burning, especially on my right-hand - the hand which had predominantly been in the 185 tank. Lots of washings didn't ease the pain. It wasn't excruciating or anything, just unpleasant. My figures looked cracked and dried. There's a few possibilities: the carbon solution (which isn't carbon at all but a formaldehyde variant!) or ammonia in the water. Now, this hasn't happened to me before and the ammonia dose was tiny - but clearly there was something caustic in the tank water. Either that, or it was caused by something else (I made a hot curry that evening with three green chillis...) and the tank was a coincidence? I don't know. But I offer it here in case anyone has experienced the same. Really, with such a tiny concentration of ammonia in 185 litres it seems unlikely but it's the most plausible explanation.
At least now I know: don't play with the tank unless ammonia is zero!
My hands are fine this morning, but the skin under my fingernails is still quite sensitive. I'll survive.
And there we are: the longest fishy update in human (and fish) history. Probably no one cares, and is only here for the readings! ;D Well, I haven't made any this morning! Perhaps at lunch-time.
Pics to follow.
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What was the 'carbon solution' you used? I can only find reference in your missive to the Fluval CO2 88 which googling says is a cannister of CO2....
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Great update, Cara. I enjoy reading about how others aproach their fish keeping.
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I've treated the fishies recently to daphnia and tubifex (which was a wonderful experience! I've never seen them all congregate together and feast so hungrily!) - but the results have been egregiously manifest on the gravel! I will say no more ;) Actually I will say one more thing: how can something so small poo something so big?! Extrapolating to human terms, I would be on the toilet for 3 weeks... (Too uncouth for this time in the morning? Apologies! :rotfl: )
And there we are: the longest fishy update in human (and fish) history. Probably no one cares, and is only here for the readings! ;D
I, for one at least, appreciate lengthy and detailed descriptions, so thanks for that. There's too much of an emphasis these days on being succinct and people are losing the art of writing, so it's enjoyable to get the opportunity to read this.
As for the fish, try (or maybe not!) feeding them a piece of papaya fruit. My goldfish (RIP :'() used to get so excited by orange-/brightly coloured fruit and I couldn't help giving him a morsel from time to time of whatever I was eating. Goldfish do produce a lot of waste - and seem to be prone to problems in this regard - but the aftermath of a piece of papaya fruit was on a par with, if not actually worse, than you describe!
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What was the 'carbon solution' you used? I can only find reference in your missive to the Fluval CO2 88 which googling says is a cannister of CO2....
It's EASYLIFE EasyCarbo. The SeaChem liquid carbon is the only proprietary one that's different but from my research all this liquid CO2 treatments aren't actually carbon. I believe they strip the KH from the water to generate carbon. Which is probably not a good idea for my soft water tank!
I enjoy reading about how others aproach their fish keeping.
Cheers Colin ;)
As for the fish, try (or maybe not!) feeding them a piece of papaya fruit
I'll try that, cheers! Anything that excites them and is more interesting than flakes!
Update after testing:
Ammonia: ~0 the solution wasn't a perfect yellow but it was barely green at all.
Nitrites: didn't test
Nitrates: didn't test
I dosed again with a few ml of ammonia solution. 2ml at most. By my calculations estimating 180L in tank this is 11.1ppm. This would seem to be a massive overdose! Yet it's being eaten in 24 hours. Somewhat embarrassing after admitting to my love of science and chemistry, but have I got this right?
And now for something entirely different: when I fed the other fish in the 70L at lunch, I couldn't help but notice how crystal clear the water was...
Now, I know correlation doesn't equal causality, and many things could be in play: the 50% water change, the filter clean - but let's remember I also used Purigen in the filter. It looks like a brand new tank and the water looks immaculate. Could be all of these factors, and we know Purigen is expensive, but for smaller tanks where it will last 6 months and is reusable...something I am definitely keeping in mind...
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Of course, I'm being dumb. The ammonia solution itself is no more than 10% strength, so even at 10% it would be 1.1ppm, but in reality is probably between 8 and 9%.
So I am underdosing slightly.
If the ammonia solution (Jeyes Kleen Off) is 9.5% strength then 6ml would give 3.166 ppm
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Of course, I'm being dumb.
Don't put yourself down...... I'll phone the vet! :))
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Of course, I'm being dumb.
Don't put yourself down...... I'll phone the vet! :))
:rotfl: good bye cruel world
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As for the fish, try (or maybe not!) feeding them a piece of papaya fruit
I'll try that, cheers! Anything that excites them and is more interesting than flakes
Without intending to repeat myself, try shelled chopped blanched peas, some occupants in my 200l go nuts for them.
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Without intending to repeat myself, try shelled chopped blanched peas, some occupants in my 200l go nuts for them.
Peas are definitely good for preventing constipation in fish but, to induce an entire intestinal, explosive "clearout", then papaya fruit is on a whole other level - although I would definitely exercise caution on giving any to such small fish as the after-effects are quite an alarming sight to behold and I would hate for anything bad to happen to the fish themselves as a consequence.
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Ok, now we're getting somewhere.
Update:
Ammonia: ~0 (I know I shouldn't have let it drop to zero but I've been underdosing on a daily basis)
Nitrites: >2.0
Nitrates: >10 ppm
Today I have dosed with 4ml ammonia. The tank shouldn't eat that in 24 hours!
Great to see the nitrates finally starting to climb!
I can also upload some pics. Here is the imgur link: http://imgur.com/a/iu3p7
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Looks good :) I like the effect from that guppy grass. Is it planted or free floating? I cant quite decide.
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Nice tank. 8)
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Looks good :) I like the effect from that guppy grass. Is it planted or free floating? I cant quite decide.
It's wrapped loosely around the piece of bogwood and then floats. When the cycle is finished and I drain the tank I'll use that special aquarium glue to attach some of the grass to the wood.
As you can see I have a lot of floating plants too! And they are getting the best of the light and CO2 so are growing vociferously. The Alternatha (sp) red thing is growing beautifully. Bear in mind I am using inert substrate so what you're seeing is simply nutrient sticks and light, and in the last three days, CO2. I'd love to see a carpet starting to form...
Update:
Ammonia: ~0
Nitrites: >4
Nitrates: >40
This means that the tank can eat ~4ml of ammonia in about 24 hours. I dosed another 4ml this afternoon and will keep waiting for those other Ns to come down.
Cheers for the feedback! Off for a meal tonight - lots of food and wine thank you very much :cheers: :fishy1:
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Be careful about adding too much ammonia. You don't want nitrite getting to 15 ppm or the cycle will stall. Once the nitrite reading reaches the highest colour it could be anything over that level from the highest colour to infinity. Well, not quite infinity but you get the point :)
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Cheers, Sue - that's important to know.
I tested again this morning and once again Nitrite was full purple and Ammonia showed effectively zero. But I didn't dose with more ammonia. I will add a smaller treatment dose this evening.
By the way, my plants were pearling yesterday ;D 'twas a beautiful sight. I'm giving the tank about 6 hours of CO2 and light each day. The results are remarkable. Some plants are such a brilliant green they look luminescent, and the "difficult" red plant is shooting up. One of the reds which looked to be on its way out is now bushy and twice the size.
As I said, when it's not "light time" I cover the tank so it's black inside. Last night I uncovered the tank and switched the light on for a few seconds and the plants were sleeping. Those brilliant green ones which had their leaves fully spread, soaking up the rays in the day, were now narrow and their leaves were tightly constricted! Basic plant biology I suppose but still great to see in action.
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You could try a dilution test, though it will only be approximate. Since 15 is the critical figure and the test kit stops at 5, I would try mixing 1 part tank water with 2 parts tap water. If that shows the highest colour, your nitrite is above 15. Anywhere below the highest colour is OK but be careful.
If it is over 15, you could try more dilutions (eg 1:4 or even 1:9) to find out how much higher than 15 it is. Then do a water change to get it below 15.
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Good idea. I'll try this and let you know how it goes. :fishy1:
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You could try a dilution test,
I did that and then promptly did a water change ::)
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Bad news on the 70l. The gold molly isn't very well at all. I think it's female, by the way.
I couldn't see her this morning and finally noticed her at the bottom not moving. I actually assumed she was dead, but she did move. I went home at lunch at she's lying on the bottom, breathing very slowly. The male molly is hovering next to her.
The tank has been in great condition as far as I could see, and there was a massive clean and water change just the other day. The only thing of which I can think is the temperature; tank has been running into the 27s, but that shouldn't be excessive. All the same I've turned the heater off as it's not needed in this weather anyway.
I'm worried that when I go home later she will have passed, but I don't think there is anything I could do. I feel helpless.
I should never have been sold mollies at all. Anyone on this forum could have told me from the start that I was mixing very soft and very hard water fish. I'm sad but a bit annoyed - but then, perhaps I should have done much more research before I even got fish. Perhaps a lot of people should!
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We all made mistakes, the point is to learn from them.
Remember also Gold Mollies will be highly inbred to get that colour and therefore are likely to be intrinsically weak. The same is true of most livebearers, one reason why I have avoided them.
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Sorry to hear that your molly isn't doing well.
The feeling of helplessness is normal, and something I'm sure that we've all experienced to varying degrees.
Fish keeping is a non-stop learning process, and Richard has a good point about the in-breeding.
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By 8pm last night she was dead. The poor thing has always been a free spark, a wild little trouble-causer chasing fishes and being the first to eat - a real fun character - and always came to greet me at the glass.
Unfortunately, she wasn't the only one. The black molly was resting against the heater, reclined, breathing slowly. I couldn't see the white molly.
I removed plants (most of them fake) one by one. In one of them I saw a pakistani loach - dead. I must have been dead for a day or two. As I looked closely at another plant I saw the other loach, nestled deeply into the plants - also dead. I kept taking plants out and put the three dead fish into a bag.
I took everything out, including 60% of the water and replaced it. I saw the white molly, who earlier today had appeared healthy. In fact, he was "waiting" alongside the gold molly as she lay sick on the floor of the tank. I took some pics of this - I'd love to post them here.
The white molly was now clearly sick - listing and ragged.
Unfortunately I had nothing left with which to euthanise the fish, so I had to wait and wait until they passed naturally. It didn't take long. The black molly was removed when she stopped breathing. The white one was removed hours later when he was lying upside down on the floor of the tank, barely breathing. I don't know if the white molly was still alive at this point but I figured even if he was he'd have a quicker passing than being left in the tank to die in the night.
I felt that these mollies had character, especially the crazy gold one! I'll miss them.
As for the cause? There aren't many options. The tank had a 50% water change just last week and the filters were squeezed clean in tank water. I added Seachem Purigen, which was brilliant for the water. I know that Purigen can interact badly with certain slime coats, but the Interpet Dechlorinator I used doesn't have one, only aloe vera, which unless it's amine based isn't a problem. I did use a small amount of Tetra's CrystalWater - which is supposed to be perfectly safe. I know that loaches can be susceptible to certain treatments because of their scales - who knows. There are stories of CrystalWater deoxygenating the water - but I don't think the fish died from lack of oxygen.
The timeline seems to me that one of the loaches died first, perhaps even 2-3 days ago. Unfortunately, even in a 70L tank there's plenty of places for the fish to hide if they want to - and the loaches have often gone missing. Then the other loach died, perhaps 1-2 days ago. Did the same thing afflict the mollies, or did the dead loaches poison the water? Did one of the mollies (probably that bloody gold one) try to nipple a dead loach and catch something?
The only anomaly of which I can think is the CrystalWater. But that's my opinion.
The mollies and loaches are survived by three scissor tails, two cardinals, six penguin tetras and two coolie loaches.
Edited to add: needless to say, I am gutted. These little lives were in my hands, and to see them slowly lose their life over a few hours was horrible. This experience has reminded me why I do not get pets! But, I am not giving up on the fishies. I'm going to make the new home perfect for the survivors.
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I'm really sorry to hear that, Cora. It's always difficult when something like that happens. I'd take out (or stop) any unnecessary chemical additives or treatments and leave the tank for a fair few weeks before you do anything else.
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So sorry to hear what has happened in your tank over the past few days. How awful to be looking through the tanks for the fish, only to find them either already passed or very ill. I don't know what else to say. :(
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I understand how you feel, it is horrible to be removing dead fish from the tank.
I would take heart from the fact the cardinals are still going strong. All three commonly traded members of the Paracheirodon genus are sensitive fish and if there had been something terrible with the water I would have expected them to go first.
You have soft water so the mollies were out of their comfort zone; it would not have taken much to push them over the edge. The fact that your soft water fish, with the exception of the dead loaches, are fine does indicate the lack of hardness to have been a complicating, if not sole, factor for the mollies.
But I agree, stop adding chemicals to the water except dechlorinator. Something must be responsible for the loaches.
A lot of people won't use dechlorinators with aloe vera as that has been shown to coat the gills. Since I have chlorine in my tapwater, I use a product which contains sodium thiosulphate to remove the chlorine and EDTA tertasodium to bind metals. Nothing else, not even something to 'detoxify' ammonia.
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Nothing that I can add to the helpful comments/suggestions already provided, but just to pass on my sincere condolences to you (and again to Sue) for the distress that you (and she) have gone through in your separate situations.
:'(
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Thanks for all the replies and nice messages.
@Sue: I've chosen to migrate to Seachem for my products. Their dechlorinator (Prime, I think) works fine with Purigen. It has a slime coat but not aloe vera, but it also claims to detoxify ammonia and nitrites too...
I completely agree with you about the soft water; it surely didn't kill them but it probably weakened an already sensitive fish.
At least I can give you an update on 185:
Ammonia: ~0 (ain't dosed in days)
Nitrites: >5ppm
Nitrates: ~20ppm
I haven't had the chance to do the test for nitrites on diluted tank water - been a hectic few days.
I dosed with 4ml ammonia solution at midday and will take a reading tomorrow.
I also removed the floating plants from my tank with the exception of lettuce and frogbit. The hornwoot et al was getting untidy and is ultimately extraneous.
I also managed to procure some reasonably-priced crush coral (calcium carbonate). This will be going in the top tray of the EF.
Since I got so little sleep last night I'll be relaxing with a gin and tonic and mourning the loss of my fish. :(
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Errrmm, the people who criticise aloe vera don't have a good word to say about Prime on the grounds that Seachem won't say what's in it and the company admits they don't know how it works. But other people swear by it.
I would do a diluted test as soon as you can find time. The last thing you want to do is add a lot of ammonia if nitrite is over 15 ppm.
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I'll do it as soon as I get home, cheers.
I do immensely dislike it when companies don't list some of their products' ingredients. If it were super-duper classified proprietary stuff, that could purify water as well as cure cancer and contact sapient extra-terrestrial life, fair enough (funnily enough, companies like SeaChem and Tetra stop just short of claims like that)...but it's not.
The only reason I will use Prime is because I know it will be safe with Purigen. But again, I could do what you do, Sue, and use a dechlorinator and metal-neutraliser with nothing else added and that would also be safe - plus I'd know what I was using.
I suppose I don't need to dose with ammonia to keep the bacteria alive. I just need the nitrite eaters to hurry up and breed. Bacterium aphrodisiac anyone?
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Bacterium aphrodisiac anyone?
Wine! A glass of merlot in the tank and they'll be at it like stoats! :))
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I'm having a beer tonight, but am very partial to merlot, so I'll drink to that. :cheers:
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Pinotage or shiraz-pinotage for me :)
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I had gin and tonic last night, and only because it was lying around the house; trying to not drink wine in the week. Plus, money spent on wine could be money spent on fishies. Hmm, wine :cheers: vs fishies :fishy1:... close one!
Just a quick update to say my tank has a big algae problem: there are long strands of algae attached to many plants and there's a growth on the glass. I suppose it's irrelevant to the cycle and there's not much point cleaning it, because when the cycle is complete I will empty the tank to the substrate, hoovering up the algae in the process, clean the wood, clean the glass and refill with fresh water.
Just thinking aloud, that I have overdosed somewhere along the line with ferts or light.
After losing my fish, I am just getting impatient to finish this cycle and get the fish in to their new home.
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Algae grows when things are not in balance, and different types of algae specialise in growing when different things are absent/ in abundance e.g. if I recall correctly green spot algae is a result of too much light and not enough co2 ( I might be making that up :o). There are guides available that tell you this. This should mean that if you can identify what algae you have you can identify what is not' in balance'. That said, I think you are absolutely right that once you have emptied and cleaned the tank following the completion of your cycle, your problem should reduce (assuming it is a cycle related imbalance). If your struggling - take a few photos and I'll try to identify the algae and we can try to work out the root cause from there.
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The idea that different algae grow because of things being "not in balance" is continually repeated, though there is no scientific basis behind it. I think it's a misinterpretation of Liebig's Law of the minimum, which states that there is always one limiting factor in plant (including algae) growth, e.g if the limiting factor is light, then no amount of fertilisers will make them grow faster. Algae need exactly the same things as other plants to grow. When plants are growing strongly then they can outcompete algae, but algae is a natural component of all freshwater systems and you will always get some in any tank. If you provide more light, nutrients and carbon dioxide than your plants can use, then inevitably algae will take advantage and use the excess.
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If you provide more light, nutrients and carbon dioxide than your plants can use, then inevitably algae will take advantage and use the excess.
I.e. if things arnt balanced because there is an excess of something...
http://www.tropicalfishsite.com/types-of-algae-growth-found-in-the-home-aquarium/ (http://www.tropicalfishsite.com/types-of-algae-growth-found-in-the-home-aquarium/)
Where have I gone wrong here Richard? I'm keen to understand this issue.
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If you provide more light, nutrients and carbon dioxide than your plants can use, then inevitably algae will take advantage and use the excess.
I.e. if things arnt balanced because there is an excess of something...
Indeed, this is my understanding.
All too often I hear it said that light is the biggest contributing factor for algae growth.
My tank receives about 10 hours light a day, with some sunlight too, and I have virtually no algae at all.
I put this down to the fact that the plants are consuming all available nutrients leaving none for the algae.
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Morning. Cheers for the interesting feedback, guys.
From what I understand a new tank is in a state of flux with most parameters, and algae can be a common outbreak.
But of course, I am experimenting with dosages and have over-provided something. The substrate is inert but I have ADA iron-bottom multi-nutrient sticks in "strategic" equidistant positions throughout the tank. I have pressurised CO2 which I try to balance to 3 bubbles per second. I have used liquid ferts though the last time was over a week ago. I stopped use EASY CARBO however I have read that it is good for getting rid of algae (because it's not actually carbon but an aldehyde).
I've also yet to establish a set routine for "day" for the plants. I keep the tank blacked out but because I don't have a solenoid regulator the plants don't always get the same light at the same time every day. My plan was to give them "day" in the evening but I don't know if that's enough hours of light?
The plants have shot up incredibly, but as you can all tell from the above, it's not an ideal setup and obviously I am overdosing something. I've discovered that a sustained "black out" seems to regress algae significantly. Is 3 bubbles/s too much? I can try two. There are many variables!
I'm probably just waffling now. My guess is that the nutrient sticks are sufficient for the planted plants but if I add liquid fert for the few non-planted plants that's overdosing the tank and algae is taking advantage.
As I did a 50% water change yesterday (more on this below) I sucked up a lot of algae clinging to the plants and wood. There was lots of it, and of various types! There was even some bright blue/green stuff (cyanobacteria??).
Update on tank stats BEFORE Sue's dilution test:
Ammonia: ~0 (remember I'd given another 3-4ml the previous day)
Nitrite: >4 (unknown)
Nitrates: ~40
I took 10ml of tank water and added 30ml of fresh water straight from the tap and tested for Nitrite. The reading of this 40ml dilution was 1.0ppm. By my maths (I worked on the Space Shuttle*) this means the tank concentration is ~ 4.0ml.
I replaced 50% of tank water with fresh water. That was last night. I will do more readings later today and resume the cycle process!
*Not Challenger...
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I've also yet to establish a set routine for "day" for the plants. I keep the tank blacked out but because I don't have a solenoid regulator the plants don't always get the same light at the same time every day. My plan was to give them "day" in the evening but I don't know if that's enough hours of light?
I'm confused..... is this a solenoid regulator for the CO2 'cos all the lights need is an el cheapo plug in timer thingy..... usually ~£5 from B&Q (other hardware shops are available). However, people say (don't they always) that you should have the CO2 on for the same time as the lights so use a solenoid regulater plugged in to another of B&Q's best. I have the fish lights on from 11am to 9.30pm.... seems OK for me.
If you have a drop checker thingy with your CO2 kit then you'll know if you've got the bubble rate right. Otherwise (if you have a KH test kit) then you can use this (http://www.thinkfish.co.uk/calculators/phco2) chart.
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I've also yet to establish a set routine for "day" for the plants. I keep the tank blacked out but because I don't have a solenoid regulator the plants don't always get the same light at the same time every day. My plan was to give them "day" in the evening but I don't know if that's enough hours of light?
I'm confused..... is this a solenoid regulator for the CO2 'cos all the lights need is an el cheapo plug in timer thingy..... usually ~£5 from B&Q (other hardware shops are available). However, people say (don't they always) that you should have the CO2 on for the same time as the lights so use a solenoid regulater plugged in to another of B&Q's best. I have the fish lights on from 11am to 9.30pm.... seems OK for me.
If you have a drop checker thingy with your CO2 kit then you'll know if you've got the bubble rate right. Otherwise (if you have a KH test kit) then you can use this (http://www.thinkfish.co.uk/calculators/phco2) chart.
I have a drop checker. It takes a while to turn from blue to green. Unfortunately I have ridiculously soft water but neutral pH. I haven't determined the minimum drops required to turn the checker green after a reasonable interval.
I need a solenoid for the valve/regulator, yeah - because Fluval's is already attached to the canister and needs to be manually opened/closed. A basic timer for the lights would be fine, you're right.
I've read that it's best to start the CO2 a bit before lights, so the water has some saturation (sufficient partial pressure) before the plants "wake up" with light. If I can get a solenoid which fits onto the CO2 cannister I'll be laughing. Look, I'll prove it: :rotfl:
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If I can get a solenoid which fits onto the CO2 cannister I'll be laughing. Look, I'll prove it: :rotfl:
These guys'n'gals here (CO2 supermarket (http://www.co2supermarket.co.uk/co2-regulators-single-stage-with-solenoid-gsc7.html)) seem to have a good range of regulators w/ solenoid stuff, plus adaptors for various cylinder types. Keep on laughin', girl :))
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I suspect you may be overdosing on everything.
The "light causes algae" argument is common. I get to survey a lot of ponds for work. Often, a pond may be completely in the open, exposed to full sun all day, but have very little algae. Conversely, some quite shaded ponds have a lot of algae. I've concluded that it is high nutrient levels that are generally more significant than light.
It always seems odd to me that some people spend so much time, effort and money on additives and gadgets, while others (including me) manage to grow plants perfectly OK and without particular algae problems without adding anything at all, and with only "normal" lighting levels.
I'll only believe the "balance" idea if someone can show me a proper scientific reference for evidence. The fact that something is repeated on numerous internet sites doesn't make it true, just look at all the conspiracy theories etc............
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'Tis true. However; by your own admission you stick to growing 'easy' plants. Some people like to sail close to the cutting edge of post-modern planting technology and grow something a tad more challenging*. For this, and for the plants to e.g. stay red and spread a bit, perhaps a bit more light, CO2 and ferts may be necessary - all judiciously applied, of course.
And some people just like to futz with their stuff. ;D
*challenging = more likely to die :-\
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I always like your style, Richard :) No nonsense and pro-science!
I heartily accept that I am overdosing on everything! ;D
You follow the Walstad method, right? So I assume you have a soil substrate but let fish provide the poo and CO2 for nutrients? How many hours of light do the plants get each day?
Not all my plants are easy-growers, and I have a few red ones and harder "carpet" plants.
As a rule I reject conspiracy theories, but everyone knows that Crab People rule the world from deep underground. Just saying.
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I thought it was the Lizard People from outer space..... clickety-click (http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2013/10/how-spot-reptilians-runing-us-government/354496/).
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My tanks typically get about 10 hours a day of light, but it does vary as I don't use time switches, not unknown for me to forget to switch off in the evening for several hours, or forget to switch on in the morning.
I always think it's best to start simple and complicate things one by one. For more difficult plants, I would start by increasing light intensity, not duration, but intensity which is a different thing and more important. I'd see how that worked, then only look at other changes if things aren't satisfactory. If you add more than one "extra" from the beginning, then if there are problems you won't know which factor is the critical one. As in any scientific experiment, you only change one variable at a time.
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I thought it was the Lizard People from outer space..... clickety-click (http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2013/10/how-spot-reptilians-runing-us-government/354496/).
No... have they gotten to you too?!!! :yikes:
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All flippancy aside (just for a few minutes ;D ), Richard, could you tell us the size of your tank and the number of inhabitants.... plus (please) a piccie so we can see the density of planting to get an idea of what we're all talking about. Thanks.
Now, back to our normal schedule. ;)
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Colin,
I presently have 9 tanks, from 60 - 125 litres. They are all different, different plants, densities etc. Some are pretty well fully stocked, one has only 2 Panda cories, one has only 10 CPDs, and one has 2 Neons, 1 Cardinal and 1 Guppy, the last lot being the remains of the fish that I inherited with second hand tanks. Those with gravel over soil have grown much better plants than sand over soil, I regret using sand, which was for cories though there has actually been no difference in success with them whether sand or gravel was used.
I have posted photos before, but at present light levels are very low because of the almost complete coverage of Amazon Frogbit (and duckweed!) which makes it very difficult to get a decent piccy. When I next skim a load off the surface, I'll try again.
I'm planning to revamp my tanks in autumn when I have more time, get rid of the sand and replace with gravel, move some fish and restock with some new additions.
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Thanks, Richard.
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I think you'll find that it is a coalition of the females of the crab people and giant lizards the rule the world.
They just let the males think that they are in charge.
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I think you'll find that it is a coalition of the females of the crab people and giant lizards the rule the world.
They just let the males think that they are in charge.
Evil crabs and lizards eh? Not too dissimilar to the UK's most recent coalition government...
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Yes, that's them. They've been on tv and everything. Very clever of them to disguise themselves as men (well, human males, but you know what I mean.)
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I think you'll find that it is a coalition of the females of the crab people and giant lizards the rule the world.
They just let the males think that they are in charge.
Evil crabs and lizards eh? Not too dissimilar to the UK's most recent coalition government...
Yes, that's them. They've been on tv and everything. Very clever of them to disguise themselves as men (well, human males, but you know what I mean.)
What about Teresa May...... there's an evil crab if ever I saw one!
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Perhaps just a rubbish disguise then.
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Update:
Ammonia: ~0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 5
I did a 50% water change yesterday evening to dilute the nitrites.
Assuming I haven't restarted the entire cycle (!) it looks like I could be on the verge of a breakthrough. I have dosed with ammonia solution again now and will take another reading tomorrow.
The bacteria in my EF have now had weeks to build up. If I assume I overdosed initially and the nitrites were simply too high, the current readings start to make sense. The alternative is that I still simply don't have enough nitrite eaters in which case my readings tomorrow will be ammonia: 0 and nitrite through the roof again. Let's see...
Anyway, let us give thanks to our Crab/Reptile overlords as we enjoy this Friday evening. May our claws never be shod.
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14 hours later. I couldn't resist testing.
Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: >=2
Nitrate: >=20
which means in only 14 hours 3ml of ammonia solution was completely converted to nitrite.
As per the cycle process I'll leave the tank for at least another day and test again for nitrites.
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The nitrite eaters always lag behind the ammonia eaters as the ammonia eaters have to make nitrite before the nitrite eaters can get started. They seem to take longer to multiply as well once they do get started.
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Update:
Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrates >=20
But the cycle hasn't finished because I haven't proven that the tank can complete a cycle in 24 hours. I have dosed again with ammonia now. I will test again tomorrow lunch time. If I get the same readings the cycle is complete!
I am off to a big aquatic centre now to buy hardscape material and get fishy prices.
Enjoy your Sunday all :)
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What about Teresa May...... there's an evil crab if ever I saw one!
Oh Colin thank you. How I LOLED!!! :rotfl:
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The end of the cycle is in sight. Hooray.
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I've been curious, and possibly slightly obsessed... about the tank readings only a few hours after a dose. In just over 5 hours after adding 3ml of ammonia soln (which is my treatment dose)
ammonia: 1
nitrite: >=2
nitrates: ~40
Not drawing any conclusion from this - I was just curious what the water would be like after a few hours.
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If the 3ml Ammonia is the 5ppm dose for your tank, you are definitely accelerating towards a completed cycle I would say... Ammonia eaters - as you know - lead the nitrite eaters. But once the nitrite colonies breed up they accelerate in their multiplication... I had light a light-blue nitrite test tube before I knew it!
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I think you're right, Paddy. Assuming I didn't get a false negative (!) with my second-to-last nitrite test, the end must be in sight.
I bought some "spider wood" for aquascaping yesterday - two beautiful pieces which give the tank height. Who knows, this time tomorrow I could be draining the tank and setting up the decore ;D I just wish the fish I lost could also be moving in. :fishy1: :'(
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If the 3ml Ammonia is the 5ppm dose for your tank
For cycling the doses are
Full dose 3 ppm
Maintenance dose 1ppm
Fishless methods elsewhere are likely to be 5 ppm as that's the amount that used to be used, but it is now known that a properly stocked tank produces less than 3 ppm. Heavily overstocked tanks will, of course, make more than 3 ppm, but we shouldn't have heavily overstocked tanks except for Rift Lake cichlid tanks.
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spider wood?
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spider wood?
Search google images for "spiderwood". You'll have seen it for sure, but perhaps under another name.
I think it's usually more interesting, and cheaper than bogwood - doesn't stain the water, but because it's light it tends to float and can take months to sink. I'm going to use rocks and lead weights to keep it in position in my tank. It also seems to be cleaner and has less of a hardscaping footprint on the aquarium.
I'll send a pic of my aquascape as soon as I've finished the cycle.
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azalea roots I have that in a couple of my tanks too. I know boiling or scalding wood speeds up the breakdown of the fibres but it also seems to speed up the rate at which it absorbs water. It goes a lovely chestnut red colour when its soaked
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Sounds great! Can't wait to set it up.
Speaking of which, update:
ammonia: 0
nitrite: 0.5
nitrate 30-40
Now I need to add the full dose and see if it clears in 24 hours.
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Update:
Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: >=40
You know what that means :) :fishy1:
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:cheers:
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Woop woop! Time for fishies!! :cheers:
:fishy1: :fishy1: :fishy1: :fishy1: :fishy1:
:fishy1: :fishy1: :fishy1: :fishy1: :fishy1:
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Exciting stuff! Congrats!
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Cheers guys and girls :) Now, a sensible approach would be to wait until tomorrow before doing anything with the tank... :rotfl:
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Wednesday is now officially fish day.......hooray!
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Cheers guys and girls :) Now, a sensible approach would be to wait until tomorrow before doing anything with the tank... :rotfl:
OK.... we've had 7 hours and 20 minutes of Wednesday...... what fish have you got? :))
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Now we've had nearly 11 hours of Wednesday. ;D
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Panda corys are lovely little fish and are best in a 5+ group. my 5 recently spawned in a PVC tube but only 3 eggs remains (the rest fungus-ed :( ) i hope your pandas will be as entertaining as mine!
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Every day is like fishy day! (with apologies to Morrisey)
Ok, so last night the tank was drained, glass cleaned and some snails removed (thank you very much, Pets at Home).
Hose filled tank + 2 capfuls of Seachem Prime (not taking any risks with chlorine).
Aquascaping redone - some plants thrown out - most replanted in new areas. Lots of dead leaves and rubbish to net out, but the water was settled quite quickly!
The tank this morning looks so good. The water looks crystal clear and the the mix of wood and leaves, with stones around the base gives a very natural, freshwater stream look. Unfortunately I always have problems linking to image files here, but I'll do so later so you can see the tank.
I will do a set of readings later in order to have a baseline, then add the fish I already have.
:fishy1: :cheers:
Current fish are:
3 scissortails
6 penguin tetras
New fishies arriving in 1-3 days! See my signature for my wishlist. The ones confirmed are Bolivian Rams and Dwarf Rainbowfish. Panda cories are also a cert!
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Yay! Pandas go ballistic for frozen bloodworm
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I am very fond of my panda cory, who have been a delightful addition to the plakat betta tank. Quite a lot of character for their size.
I've got some penguin tetra as well, and I'm really glad I got them, rather than increasing my number of glass bloodfins in that tank, which was my other option. I like the way they move, and they mix well with the bloodfins and silver hatchets.
Keep us updated with lots of photos as your fish arrive. ;D
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Update:
the tank looks amazing and the fish look so happy.
They didn't at first though; yesterday I had the CO2 on all day, which was a misjudgement. I measured the pH of the water in the new tank and it was 6.1. This was with a digital pH reading and I'm not convinced it's calibrated correctly. I tested using pH solution and got a reading of 6.4. Low, but acceptable for my fish. I had already turned the CO2 and was going to wait for the pH to rise slightly. But I tested the pH on my 70L and got a reading of 3.3!!
This was obviously rubbish as I thought the fish would be dead in that. So I tested using pH solution and got a reading of <=6. Obviously worse than the new tank, so I moved them right away.
Coming up later, fishy "first reactions" to the new tank including troubling behaviour!
Stay tuned.
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Update:
the tank looks amazing and the fish look so happy.
They didn't at first though; yesterday I had the CO2 on all day, which was a misjudgement. I measured the pH of the water in the new tank and it was 6.1. This was with a digital pH reading and I'm not convinced it's calibrated correctly. I tested using pH solution and got a reading of 6.4. Low, but acceptable for my fish. I had already turned the CO2 and was going to wait for the pH to rise slightly. But I tested the pH on my 70L and got a reading of 3.3!!
This was obviously rubbish as I thought the fish would be dead in that. So I tested using pH solution and got a reading of <=6. Obviously worse than the new tank, so I moved them right away.
Coming up later, fishy "first reactions" to the new tank including troubling behaviour!
Stay tuned.
Excellent news.
However: (http://i689.photobucket.com/albums/vv255/spyderwebb4/Smileys/this_thread_is_worthless_without_pi.gif)
:)) :)) :))
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Colin, :rotfl:
Soon!!
Ok, so I put the fish into the new tank. There was some immediate frantic swimming as they explored their new home and no doubt felt a bit scared.
However, they all started breathing at the surface. Never a good sign. There's no doubt in my mind the partial pressure of O2 in the water was dangerously low, so I added an airstone. This worked. After 15-20 mins the fish started swimming normally in the middle of the tank.
The Penguins are actually shoaling now, and the Scissortails can stretch their fins and swim for a while without encountering glass. One of the Cardinals was worrying me, gasping at the surface for some time whilst his friend was perfectly happy to explore the tank.
I turned the airstone off this morning before leaving for work.
And so it's finally done. The tank is up and running!
I noticed that the fins on my penguins are not in great condition. It wasn't visible in the old tank, but now I can clearly see that they aren't in great condition. Who knows what the problem was in that hell-hole, but they have a brand new tank with fresh clean water, a cycled filter, and purigen. My only concern is the pH, but at least I have soft water acid-preferring fish!
Now that I think of it, perhaps a pH crash killed the mollies??
I can't wait to upload pics but it will have to wait until this evening. However, I've updated the photo album which can be seen here: https://goo.gl/photos/ZLx8Za9jsMGSnhJ78
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Great piccies - thanks.
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Hooray, photos.
The tank is looking great.
Well done.
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Great; thanks for the update. How are the fish this evening? (They look good in the pics.) Hope all's going swimmingly now. :)
I enjoyed the pics, the stage-by-stage pictorial update and the fish in their new home.
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The fish are great, thanks!
The penguins are all shoaling together, and they occasionally meet up with the Scissors for a mass shoal! They never really did this in the 70L, probably because it was too small. But now they can all stretch out and have a good long swim before needing to turn around. They are all very active and busy too - this is surely more natural behaviour I'm observing :) It's great to see.
I don't think I will get any more Penguins, but the two Cardinals I have look so nice against the greens and browns. I know Cardinals have become a cliche in nature aquariums but there's a reason. I want to see 15 of the little things shoaling around! But...glowlight danios are also very pretty and MUCH more hardy and less delicate. They are also much cheaper to buy in large quantities. What should I do?? (You're going to say 'get both!' aren't you? :rotfl: )
My Rams and Dwarf Rainbows should be delivered tomorrow :)
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mmm - delivered from where? My nearest LFS is 40miles away (so not very L) and I'm not at all impressed with their stock. I'd be very interested in a good on-line supplier.
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Re: Cardinals, they are similar to neons and the striking colours are awesome in larger shoals... I have 22 neons now and I could watch them 24/7... So I'm on the side of you getting more cardinals.
Re: Glowlights... They are attractive, cheap and hardier but would they be hardier than cardinals? I don't know... What I have heard about them though is that they like.to dwell amongst vegetation and decor so they may not school as much or hang around in the top two thirds of the tank... It's a hit or a miss, really. That said, the glowlight I have is very much at home in amongsty neons and schools with them all the time now... Maybe not in the top half of the tank but definitely in open water away from hiding places...
Sorry if this doesn't bring you any closer to deciding :o
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Cora, did you mean glowlight danios (http://www.thinkfish.co.uk/fish/glowlight-danio.html) or glowlight tetras (http://www.thinkfish.co.uk/fish/glowlight-tetra.html)? I think paddy means the tetras.
According to Seriously Fish, glowlight danios have changed their name. Again. They were Brachydanio choprai, then Danio choprai, now they are Celestichthys choprae. That puts them in the same genus as celestial pearl danios aka galaxy rasboras. And SF says that both choprai and choprae have been used but in 2012 it was decided it should be choprae.
Whatever, they are the yellowish fish from Myanmar, and glowlight tetras are from Guyana, S America.
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I totally misread the Danio bit.
Cheers, Sue x
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I only spotted it because the danios are in one of my possible restocking lists ;D
Glowlight danios, harlies and something else to be decided is the Asian option.
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5-band barbs. They bounce around the bottom of the tank all day.... just what you need. They're not too boisterous either, so they won't out-compete the Harleys.
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The fish are great, thanks!
The penguins are all shoaling together, and they occasionally meet up with the Scissors for a mass shoal! They never really did this in the 70L, probably because it was too small. But now they can all stretch out and have a good long swim before needing to turn around. They are all very active and busy too - this is surely more natural behaviour I'm observing :) It's great to see.
I don't think I will get any more Penguins, but the two Cardinals I have look so nice against the greens and browns. I know Cardinals have become a cliche in nature aquariums but there's a reason. I want to see 15 of the little things shoaling around! But...glowlight danios are also very pretty and MUCH more hardy and less delicate. They are also much cheaper to buy in large quantities. What should I do?? (You're going to say 'get both!' aren't you? :rotfl: )
Great re the fish.
Your theory re shoaling together more in the bigger tank is exactly the theory I'd reached about something I'd observed too - how well Paddy's harlequins shoal together in his bigger tank whereas mine rarely do. (3 tend to hang around together from time to time but not exactly shoaling - more like they're plotting mischief such as who's going to push another fish out of the place they're relaxing in.) Yes, perhaps mine may be more relaxed in that they can see there are no predators around, but that's probably not natural.
Yes, that's exactly what I would have suggested - increasing the shoal size of the cardinals AND getting glowlight danios for the upper section of the tank.
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Hola all!
Yes it was Glowlight Danios to which I was referring!
Ok so update: when I said fish were being delivered I meant by my sister. She picked them up from the dealer and brought them here. The dealer wouldn't sell me the Rams because he wasn't impressed by their quality, i.e. poor breeding. This was very honest of him and solidified my opinion that he knows his stuff and cares about the fish. But, he could supply four pandy cories, six dwarf rainbows and ten cardinals.
So, project fishy 185 now contains:
12 x cardinals
6 x penguins
3 x scissor tails (I know they are too big to mix with the others but I have them now and I do love them)
4 x panda cories
6 x dwarf rainbows
The Rainbows really are a lovely fish. As soon as the supplier has more I'll add another 4 to the tank.
I'm sticking with 6 penguins.
Obviously not adding any more Scissors.
I think 12 Cardinals is enough for now.
I will be getting 6 Rams in the next few weeks when he gets new and better stock.
I LOVE panda cories. And I love how they behave when they're together. Unfortunately, the tank is heavily planted and the four of them keep losing each other! So, I'm going to buy another 4 today including a few Otos to eat algae.
Tested the water 24 hours after adding fish and it's zeroes across the board.
The only slight negative with the tank is a foamy/dusty substance which has covered the spider wood. I don't think it's algae or fungus; I assume it's a bacterial growth from the wood. When I do a water change I'll vacuum clean it off. I also assume it's completely harmless, just unsightly. The wood was soaked and scalded in boiling water before I added it to the tank.
So in summary, the tank is looking great and the fish seem happy. Just need to get those Pandas together! The plants look lovely too - and are growing quickly! I don't think I'd ever go back to plastic plants again.
I set up a photobucket account to link IMG so I'll post pics later.
Have a great Sunday everyone.
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Do you have any algae yet? If you don't, hold back on the otos. They can be very finicky feeders and often starve to death in tanks that don't have enough algae.
And it is common for them to just die in algae filled tanks too. They are wild caught, and a lot die during capture. Then they are kept, shipped, and stored at a wholesaler without the correct food, so by the time they get to the shop they are starving. Once otos reach a certain state of starvation, they can't start eating again, the cause of them just dying shortly after purchase.
Don't buy newly delivered otos; make sure they've been in the shop a couple of weeks so that the weak ones will already have died. Choose the individuals that have rounded bellies. They have been eating. Thin bellies are starving and bloated bellies are sick.
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Don't worry about the 'stuff' on your wood - its natural and harmless, do vacuum what you can away but it will go naturally after a few weeks.
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Great to hear that your tank is coming together as far as the fish are concerned.
The panda cory are quite adorable. Mine all congregate at the front of the tank as it gets closer to feeding time.
I can't wait to see your pictures. ;D
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Buenas tardes / Guten Nachmittag / Bon apres-midi,
The only slight negative with the tank is a foamy/dusty substance which has covered the spider wood. I don't think it's algae or fungus; I assume it's a bacterial growth from the wood. When I do a water change I'll vacuum clean it off. I also assume it's completely harmless, just unsightly. The wood was soaked and scalded in boiling water before I added it to the tank.
I had a slimy, white, fluffy substance on my (first piece of) wood during its first 8 weeks, then it eventually disappeared. Hopefully what you describe will also be short-lived, especially as you soaked it beforehand.
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Afternoon!
It was a foamy slimy substance on the wood. I got a lot of it off by hand. Glad to hear those who agree it's not harmful though and will go in time anyway.
I do have a bit of algae in the tank and especially on the plants, yes. But I will ask the right questions about the Otos, cheers Sue.
I did some tankkeeping this afternoon - changed the filter contents around a bit and removed one piece of filter wool; I've been worried about the low flow in the tank. It's much better now!
I'll take some pics this evening when the tank settles down and the water is totally clear.
I got 3 more pandas today. These new ones got right down to foraging right away, but the original four seem very shy. I hope they all find each other! Like I said above, there are so many places for tiny cories to get lost.
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Sounds like what I had; it re-appeared every 2-3 days but I just scrubbed it off repeatedly although it eventually disappeared altogether.
Looking forward to seeing the pics later, and especially of the pandas. Interesting that the newbies weren't shy but possibly their appearance caused the others to go into retreat; hopefully they'll all be one big happy family later on.
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5 days in:
ammonia: 0
nitrite: 0
nitrate: 0
PH: 7.0
apart from algae I'd say the tank is a dream. Plants are even pearling slightly but I think my lighting is probably insufficient intensity.
I'm also tempted to slightly re-arrange things when I do a water change at the weekend. The plants look great but a lot of the hardscape is obscuring the lower back of the tank, especially cories. Need to sort this!
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How do you feel about snails? If the algae is bad, nerite snails are wonderful algae eaters. The only problem with them is they lay sesame seed like eggs on things like wood and other decor, but they don't hatch. Of course that means the eggs just stay there.
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Plants are even pearling slightly but I think my lighting is probably insufficient intensity.
I'm also tempted to slightly re-arrange things when I do a water change at the weekend. The plants look great but a lot of the hardscape is obscuring the lower back of the tank, especially cories. Need to sort this!
If the plants are pearling then the lighting should be OK.
My view on hardscape/planting etc is that it's important not to be able to see where the substrate meets the back wall of the tank. Somehow, seeing that 'join' makes one realise that it's a tank, not a slice of nature.... if that makes sense. There's an article somewhere that I once read..... I will search t'interweb, but post this up first.
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Ta-daaa.......
Aquascaping stuff (http://www.wetwebmedia.com/fwsubwebindex/aqscabegart.htm)
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@ColinB that's an interesting and useful article.
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@ColinB that's an interesting and useful article.
(http://smileys.newbeginningsnetwork.com/piwigo/galleries/EXPRESSIONS_AND_GREETINGS/salute/hat-tip-smiley-emoticon.gif)
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I agree with Colin. I don't like to see the substrate meeting the back of the tank, for the reasons Colin gave.
Ofc, many people would say that my way of doing things isn't right either as you sometimes can't even see some of the fish. :rotfl:
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How do you feel about snails? If the algae is bad, nerite snails are wonderful algae eaters. The only problem with them is they lay sesame seed like eggs on things like wood and other decor, but they don't hatch. Of course that means the eggs just stay there.
I think that snails are unsightly. I've removed about a dozen from the tank over the last few weeks but haven't gotten rid of them all. The algae is the long whispy stuff that's clinging to plants. Algae on the glass isn't much of a problem, and I'd leave it anyway for the Otos.
I have no idea what variety of snails they are though; I assume I picked them up unexpectedly from a plant vendor (I'm blaming Pets at Home). I suppose they don't do any harm and will help out...
My view on hardscape/planting etc is that it's important not to be able to see where the substrate meets the back wall of the tank.
I agree. In fact this is what my tank is like. I have the taller and wider plants at the back and with some stones and mid-ground plants you can't see the back.
But as Extreme says, it means that sometimes I can't see fish. A tiny bit of re-scaping will sort this. I might remove one or two big stones and replace with crypts.
I'll let you know. And yes I will post pics when I upload them to photobucket. :)
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If the algae is like long threads, when I had that I just used to wind it round my finger till all that thread was gone and then moved on to the next thread. One day I realised I didn't have it any more but I've no idea what I did to get rid of it ???
Pest snails are quite common, but if you can put up with them they are not actually a bad thing in tanks. It's when they have a population explosion you need to do something, and the usual remedy is to cut down on the amount of food you feed the fish.
If they are little flat spirals, those are a type of ramshorn snail. If they are roundish with a small point at one end, those are called variously pond snails, trapdoor snails, bladder snails etc and are probably some species of Physidae. The other snails you can find don't usually come in with plants; they are ice cream cornet shaped malaysian trumpet snails, MTS.
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I'll try to identify them later, cheers Sue.
As for the algae - I've been using pincers and wrapping the algae around them to clean the tank. It hasn't really come back in those places so maybe it's a one-off case of removing it manually.
I think I am actually underfeeding the fish at the moment. Only one feeding a day and even then I doubt all the fish get their share. This is the good thing about frozen food - it sinks slowly and every fish gets a bit. But as it's a treat I don't want to spoil the fish too often :)
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@Cora maybe you should think about the Assassin Snail http://www.liveaquaria.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=1075+3106&pcatid=3106
I love my pandas. Best of Luck!!! :cheers:
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The reason I want to move the scape slightly is to see more of the pandas! I have 7 in the tank but only see 2-4 at a time. I'm sure they are fine, just shy.
Today I have removed a medium-sized rock and replaced it with three small echinodorus. I can now see the base of my spiderwood and this gives much better height to the aquarium. I've been using rocks to weight down the spiderwood but as it now remains submerged on its own I plan to replace the rocks with plants.
My sister has volunteered the services of her assassin snails to assist with my problem :)
Edit: oh and remember what I said about having lots of plants but it not becoming an underwater jungle. Well, forget that. Lol. I gave the plants a clean today and stood back and thought "jeez*, they've grown!" It really is quite dense now! Looks great - all those shades of green - but too many hiding places for fishies :(
*words to that effect...
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That's easily sorted...... more fish!
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Afternoon!
Just wanted to say hi, and I'm still alive - despite my recent absence.
I'm getting the Bolivian Rams tomorrow! :D
And I will finally, finally, sort out my photobucket account to link all the images of the tank from the very start, in one thread.
The tank is coming along really well and water conditions are excellent. Still having algae problems but this is no doubt a result of inconsistent nutrients and not enough fast-growers, so I added some weighted Hornwort.
Merry Friday all :fishy1:
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Looking forward to seeing lots of piccies. ;D
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Update: still no Bolivian Rams. The vendor didn't have them in after all and there was a miscommunication.
I have got another few Panda Corys though - bringing the total to 10!
I watched some Bolivians Rams in a fish store yesterday and they were being quite narky with each other. I was worried. Perhaps they are in breeding mode, and perhaps being in a small tank in a fish shop without plants etc to demarcate territory doesn't help - but it did make me worry about what a group of BRs would do to my very peaceful tank...
But given that my tank is so heavily planted I hope there is more than enough room and enough areas to keep them friendly.
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Shame about the Rams... but good news on the Pandas.
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Indeed - always a good idea to watch them before making a definitive decision. It might be that the vendor, if a shop, will agree to you returning them in a worst-case scenario of them not settling in peacefully - worth asking pre-purchase.
Looking forward to seeing the updated pics.
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I've also decided to try a few things to combat the algae problem. Did a 20% water change on Friday evening, cleaned algae off the front glass (I leave the other sides for the Otos), and haven't used CO2 or lightning since. Instead, I've removed the lid and am letting daylight do its work. I'm also using the recommended dose of Flourish Excel every other day, keeping a close eye on my pH though.
My ANN (ammonia, nitrite, nitrate) is 0,0,0. But my phosphate levels were >=1ppm, hence the water change. Apart from excessive feeding I don't know where this has come from. Tap water is fine.
I've also weighted some hornwort and added it to the very back of the tank. It's a surprisingly attractive plant, and it grows FAST! So much so that in just three days it was curling at the surface, so I snipped it in half, weighted the new growths and "planted" them too. I think a combo of all these things has helped reduce the algae.
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In my experience with Rams, they are likely to be a bit territorial but not aggressive to the point of actually causing damage to others. They certainly arnt 'tetra peaceful' though plants etc do help massively with this.
@Cora - I can't remember if we covered this with you already? Is you tank positioned away from direct sunlight?
Are you comfortable that for the amount of plants you have and their type (rate of growth/root feeders etc) that your dosing regime is not overkill?
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In my experience with Rams, they are likely to be a bit territorial but not aggressive to the point of actually causing damage to others. They certainly arnt 'tetra peaceful' though plants etc do help massively with this.
@Cora - I can't remember if we covered this with you already? Is you tank positioned away from direct sunlight?
Are you comfortable that for the amount of plants you have and their type (rate of growth/root feeders etc) that your dosing regime is not overkill?
Hi @Matt
I've stopped dosing altogether since the water change. I don't think I was overdosing, based on recommended doses but something has been out of balance.
There is only one part of the tank that receives direct sunlight and then only for an hour in the afternoon, if it's sunny.
I have mostly a mix of slow and medium growers in the tank. I think I had several problems early on: not enough fast growers and insufficient water flow. The CO2 was definitely helping all the plants grow but with little to no surface agitation (to retain carbon dioxide) the initial algae bloom stuck around. I had to keep cleaning it off and scooping it up - after which it's much better.
I have two airstones in either back corner of the tank on full all the time, creating a much better flow. I've haven't used the overhead lights in days. No ferts. No CO2. Only Flourish Excel.
I think somewhere along the time I've become trapped in limbo between low and high-tech setup. What I should have done is gone full high-tech from the start, or not done it at all. My plan now is to leave the setup as described for a week or so and see if the algae goes away (it's much better right now). I'll do some replanting and replace some slower growers with fast growers then resume moderate dosing.
If I can find a place for my old 70L I'll do a high-tech fast growing setup from the start. But that's a project for another thread :)
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Makes sense re being somewhere inbetween a low and high tech setup and your plan also makes sense :)
Keep up the good work :fishy1:
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Update: did weekly water change yesterday instead of today. Why? Because today is BOLIVIAN RAM day!
I believe it should be a national holiday with that name. I'll talk to Mrs May this afternoon about it...
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(http://www.animatedimages.org/data/media/739/animated-bolivia-flag-image-0013.gif)
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"Singani is a pomace brandy distilled from white Muscat of Alexandria grapes. It is produced only in the Bolivian Andes and is considered the national liquor of Bolivia and a cultural patrimony."
I haven't got any, so will have a beer instead.
:cheers:
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Have amended title in first and most recent posts to more easily identify thread owner and more accurately reflect content - hopefully subsequent posts will have title auto-amended.
Moderator FCMF C:-)
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Morning all.
So I got to FishCove Friday afternoon and the keeper, as a gesture of goodwill for me having waited so long for the Rams, and being a good customer, gave me 8 rams for the price of 5!
Eight Bolivian Rams does probably overstock my tank slightly, and it didn't help that I also came away with three more panda cories. I'm not sure how that happened, but I do recall saying something along the lines of "can I also have three panda cories?"
I removed a few plants on Thursday and created a semi-circle open place in the front of the tank and it's worked a treat for seeing the cories better. Now, all 13 of them (13!!) are often shuffling around together.
The BRs seem to have settled in well, and they are really stunning fish. Some thoughts on their behaviour though:
In parts of the tank they all get on well and happily drift around together. But in other parts they can be very territorial. There are one or two males, clearly dominant, who like to butt heads and chase the other off. There is no sign of breeding behaviour yet, and they are completely docile to other fish. I suspect that I have more males than females. If I use the dorsal fins and coloration as a guide, there does appear to be more males.
The tank has plenty of hiding places and line-of-sight blockers though, so if they did want to pair off there's nothing stopping them.
I'm not sure where a good diet for them is coming from. They aren't great with sinking catfish pellets, but a few of them do float around the cories who break up the pellets, taking advantage of dislodged bits. So I've bought small sinking cichlid pellets for them. I've read that BRs can learn to come to the mid and top tank to feed but the truth is, with the other fish around everything is gone before it even half sinks :)
They make a great centrepiece to the tank though and I can't recommend them enough. Over the next days/weeks I'll hopefully get the best out of them re behaviour and colour.
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I've certainly had the problem of hearing the words "oh, and please could I have....." coming out of my mouth without any conscious prompting from my brain.
The tanks sounds fab. Would love to see some pictures when the fish are settled. ;D
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I've certainly had the problem of hearing the words "oh, and please could I have....." coming out of my mouth without any conscious prompting from my brain.
Been there, done that. Always feel very proud of myself when I manage to leave the shop without a new fishy friend. :rotfl:
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This all sounds great.
I'm really pleased you've got high numbers of panda cories - I think that's one of the key factors to cories faring well.
Can't wait to see photos of all the tank inhabitants.
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I found the Bolivian rams I had took a while to start eating properly. The food they ate first is unfortunately not made any more, but it was a sinking tablet food which broke up easily. I feed JBL Novo Tabs to my last few cories and they look similar in texture to the discontinued food.
And BRs also fed from the surface once they discovered there was food up there.
Other gender differences with bolivian rams - the anal fin extends beyond the caudal peduncle in males. Females bodies are a gentle curve on the underside from the mouth to the tail while male's tend to have a flat part from the anal fin to the tail.
There are no 100% methods of telling males from females until their genital tubes become visible. Males' are pointy, females' are the same width all the way down.
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Cheers Sue, I'll keep this in mind when studying them.
13 pandas! They are awesome.
All pics will come eventually, I promise.