Author Topic: In mid cycle (we think) and need help/advice to lower the pH (Read 13421 times) 27 replies

HalfY · « **on:** May 24, 2016, 03:32:33 PM »

Hi folks,

New to the forums and new to tropical fish keeping.

So I set up my tank about 4 weeks ago, first 2 weeks we just ran the tank with no fish then the following 2 weeks we put 10 zebra danios in to kick off the cycling process (didnt know about fishless cycling, sorry!). It was only a week later that we saw the ammonia/nitrite level at 0 and have remain that way ever since. Our nitrate levels are now between 20-40ppm which is OK from reading around.

This weekend we swapped some fish around, so the starting 10 danios is now only 4, but we have replaced them with:
- 1 brittlenose
- 1 Siamese alae eater
- 1 panda cory
- 4 guppies (all male)

So going well (so far) and we're trying not to add lots fish at one go to overload the system, and the fish seem to quite settled and eating well.

However our pH has always been at 8.2-8.4. It comes out of the tap at 7.5 but I have a feeling this is not the true pH as many articles state, also the local LFS mentioned our area has quite high pH and hardness.

After some reading I saw that both driftwood and peat moss can help lower pH, so we bought a small and medium sized piece of wood as we wanted them anyway, but the pH has remained the same (8.2-8.4) since doing so.

Further reading highlighted that the correct pH is sometimes less important than a stable pH as long as its in range, but eventually I would like to get a pleco, some tetras, and maybe a shark which seem to prefer a pH of 7.

Do I need to start thinking about adding some peat moss to my filter to bring it down or should I just leave it how it is? Or should I just be more patient?

I saw a beautiful green phantom pleco in the shop which I instantly fell in love with and would like to get it this weekend (if its still there), but would it be too soon?

Thanks,
Tom

ColinB · « **Reply #1 on:** May 24, 2016, 04:27:58 PM »

Hello Tom, and welcome to the forum.

Lots of points to address in your post..... the first being; please don't get any more fish. Your tank is almost certainly not cycled unless you've been checking the Ammonia and Nitrite every day and seen them rise and then fall. This would take at least 4 weeks from first adding a source of Ammonia. If you ran the tank for two weeks with no source of Ammonia then there was no development of filter bacteria in that time so it made no difference at all to your cycling.

How hard is your water? If your pH is doing that, then it sounds like mine was from Thames Water so it's probably very hard.

How big is your tank, both in terms of volume and length as that determines how many and what size fish you can get.

What sort of filter have you got in it?

Panda cories need to live in groups, but they're very susceptable to immature tanks. You will need to add more, but only when the tank has been fully cycled for a few months.

Unless you have a very big tank with very robust fish, then a shark is a really bad idea.

If you've got hard water it's probably got a high buffering capacity and there's no way you'll lower the pH with bogwood and peat moss. It's always best to have the right fish for the water than futz around with water parameters.

This seems a bit negative, but we've all been through it. Keep asking and answering questions and you'll end up with a lovely tank full of happy fish. However; I must stress not to add any more fish until we get your cycling sorted out.

HalfY · « **Reply #2 on:** May 24, 2016, 06:33:06 PM »

Hi Colin,

Thank for your response! And no worries I didnt take it negatively, for me its all good learning!

I am with Thames Water. I had a look on their site and they say the water is hard:

Calcium carbonate(CaCO3): 263 ppm
Other hardness measurements
Degrees Clarke:18
Degrees German(DH):15
Degrees French:26

The tank I have is a Aquael Classic 100 Aquarium, its 200 litres, 100cm length, 40cm width and 50cm depth. It came with an internal filter which we are using. Below is a link to the tank if it helps:

http://www.petplanet.co.uk/product.asp?dept_id=167&pf_id=57632

Its a planted tank with a variety of different plants (please dont ask me which species

haha), a large root ornament, a bubbling volcano w. airstone and red LED, a bubbling treasure chest ornament, and icelandic lava rocks and two easter island statues. We have a dual air pump providing the bubbles to the chest and volcano.

We'll be sure not to add anymore fish soon.

Although we haven't been testing the water everyday we have done so every other day or every two days. Before we put in the fish (after the 2 weeks of no fish) our Ammonia was 0, Nitrite was around 5ppm, and Nitrate at around 40ppm.

After day 5 of putting in the fish, the ammonia did rise to 0.25, the other parameters stayed as they were noted above.

After day 8 the ammonia was back at 0, the nitrite was at 2ppm, and Nitrate at around 40ppm.

After day 10 ammonia was still 0, nitrite was 0, and Nitrate was between 20-40ppm

We did another test on day 13 and the results were the same as day 10. It was because of this big decrease in nitrite that we though the tank was beginning to stabilize. So Day 14 we swapped the 6 danios for the other fish we wanted (brittlenose, siamese algae eater, 4 guppies and the 1 cory).

And don't worry the shark will be the very last thing I add much later down the line

fcmf · « **Reply #3 on:** May 24, 2016, 06:34:09 PM »

Welcome, Tom

Colin has provided some very helpful advice and asked all the key questions which will help us to help you get a tank of healthy, happy fish.

Looking forward to being able to help in any way I can, as we all will be, and to read of the progress of your tank.

I see you've posted just as I was typing, so thanks for your helpful reply.

Edited to add: was the tank new when you got it, or second-hand, with mature/recently-used filter media in it? Have you been using any other products besides water conditioner/dechlorinator? Have you been doing water changes, and, if so, how often and what percentage of water changed at a time?

Extreme_One · « **Reply #4 on:** May 24, 2016, 07:11:09 PM »

Hi HalfY, welcome to the forum and to the hobby.

Quote from: HalfY on May 24, 2016, 06:33:06 PM

And don't worry the shark will be the very last thing I add much later down the line

As Colin and Fiona have covered everything else, I just wanted to pick up on the shark topic.

The only species of tropical fish that are given the name 'shark' but aren't really sharks, tend to be either Silver sharks which should be kept in a shoal and in a far larger tank than yours, or Red-tailed or Rainbow sharks (black with red tail or black with red tail and fins).

The Red-tailed shark is notoriously aggressive so not recommended for a community tank, and the rainbow shark, whilst noted as being of a more placid nature, can also prove to be too aggressive for a community aquarium.

Good luck, keep us posted.

Littlefish · « **Reply #5 on:** May 24, 2016, 07:56:04 PM »

Hi Tom and welcome to the forum.

I also have hard water and one of the products that I used with my first tank to try to bring the pH down was something called API pH7. Luckily it was after I'd done a fishless cycle, during which time I'd noticed (using test strips) that my pH had gone from 7.4 to 8.2, but before I added any fish. I was worried about putting any fish in at that pH, so went to Pets@Home, had a look at the products available and bought the API pH7 stuff. From my experience I would suggest that you do not use it. My tank water went very cloudy, with visible particulates. Reading the leaflet this was expected and that the filter would clear it within a day or so. A week later I still had a cloudy tank and the only thing I could do was clean the whole thing out and start cycling the tank again.
Perhaps I just had a bad experience, or I'm a complete muppet, either could be possible, but I threw the stuff in the bin and have since only stocked with fish and amphibians that can tolerate the water that I have.

Best of luck with your tank and please keep us posted on your progress.

Sue · « **Reply #6 on:** May 24, 2016, 08:34:55 PM »

Have you left a sample of tap water to stand overnight, then test the pH? You may find it goes up on standing. In hard water areas water companies often add carbon dioxide to the mains water. This dissolves to make the water more acidic which helps prevent limescale deposits forming in the pipes. When water is allowed to stand, this carbon dioxide gasses out and the pH rises.

If the pH of water that has stood overnight is still lower than the tank, something is increasing it - and the substrate and decor are the usual suspects. You don't mention your substrate but what are the Icelandic lava rocks?

With hard water you will have trouble lowering the pH. The only realistic option is by mixing your tap water with RO (reverse osmosis) water - that is water that has had all the minerals removed. Or if you live in a pollution free area, rainwater can also be used. But these must be mixed with tap water at exactly the same ratio at every single water change. This will also reduce the hardness.

Hardness is more important for fish than pH. You need to match fish to your hardness rather than the pH. Adding chemicals to lower pH makes the water even harder, the opposite of what acid liking fish need.

HalfY · « **Reply #7 on:** May 25, 2016, 11:52:27 AM »

Quote from: fcmf on May 24, 2016, 06:34:09 PM

Edited to add: was the tank new when you got it, or second-hand, with mature/recently-used filter media in it? Have you been using any other products besides water conditioner/dechlorinator? Have you been doing water changes, and, if so, how often and what percentage of water changed at a time?

Hi fmcf,

Thanks for the reply also!

the tank was brand new as was the filter and filter media. I bought myself a starter kit off amazon which came with a water conditioner for tap water and a filter start. We've added a couple of ml of filter start as soon as we filled the tank with water and also just before we put the first fish in.

I've doing doing water changes twice a week so far since putting in the fish, and only changing around 20% each time.

Quote from: Extreme_One on May 24, 2016, 07:11:09 PM

Hi HalfY, welcome to the forum and to the hobby.

Quote from: HalfY on May 24, 2016, 06:33:06 PM

And don't worry the shark will be the very last thing I add much later down the line

As Colin ACD Fiona have covered everything else, I just wanted to pick up on the shark topic.

The only species of tropical fish that are given the name 'shark' but aren't really sharks, tend to be either Silver sharks which should be kept in a shoal and in a far larger tank than yours, or Red-tailed or Rainbow sharks (black with red tail or black with red tail and fins).

The Red-tailed shark is notoriously aggressive so not recommended for a community tank, and the rainbow shark, whilst noted as being of a more placid nature, can also prove to be too aggressive for a community aquarium.

Good luck, keep us posted.

Thanks for the advice Extreme! I've read around on keeping RTB sharks and heard similar advice/warnings as what you have mentioned but also heard some success stories of keeping RTB sharks. Where keepers have had them fit quite well in a community but this does depend on the personality of the shark and when they are introduced to the tank. Its a fish I almost certainly want at some point

Quote from: Littlefish on May 24, 2016, 07:56:04 PM

Hi Tom and welcome to the forum.

I also have hard water and one of the products that I used with my first tank to try to bring the pH down was something called API pH7. Luckily it was after I'd done a fishless cycle, during which time I'd noticed (using test strips) that my pH had gone from 7.4 to 8.2, but before I added any fish. I was worried about putting any fish in at that pH, so went to Pets@Home, had a look at the products available and bought the API pH7 stuff. From my experience I would suggest that you do not use it. My tank water went very cloudy, with visible particulates. Reading the leaflet this was expected and that the filter would clear it within a day or so. A week later I still had a cloudy tank and the only thing I could do was clean the whole thing out and start cycling the tank again.
Perhaps I just had a bad experience, or I'm a complete muppet, either could be possible, but I threw the stuff in the bin and have since only stocked with fish and amphibians that can tolerate the water that I have.

Best of luck with your tank and please keep us posted on your progress.

Thank you for sharing your experience LittleFish, I am trying to stay well clear of adjusting my pH using chemical additives to avoid the same experience you had, many sites I have read have advised not to use them and is the reason why I'm looking to try resolve this issue (if possible) by natural means

Quote from: Sue on May 24, 2016, 08:34:55 PM

Have you left a sample of tap water to stand overnight, then test the pH? You may find it goes up on standing. In hard water areas water companies often add carbon dioxide to the mains water. This dissolves to make the water more acidic which helps prevent limescale deposits forming in the pipes. When water is allowed to stand, this carbon dioxide gasses out and the pH rises.

If the pH of water that has stood overnight is still lower than the tank, something is increasing it - and the substrate and decor are the usual suspects. You don't mention your substrate but what are the Icelandic lava rocks?

With hard water you will have trouble lowering the pH. The only realistic option is by mixing your tap water with RO (reverse osmosis) water - that is water that has had all the minerals removed. Or if you live in a pollution free area, rainwater can also be used. But these must be mixed with tap water at exactly the same ratio at every single water change. This will also reduce the hardness.

Hardness is more important for fish than pH. You need to match fish to your hardness rather than the pH. Adding chemicals to lower pH makes the water even harder, the opposite of what acid liking fish need.

Again thank you for your response Sue!

I will conduct the test on the tap water as you mentioned and let you know the results as soon as possible

The substrate I have is Hugo Kamishi Polario Small Gravel: http://hugokamishi.com/shop/hugo-polario-gravel-sm-5kg/
The lava rocks are from this website: http://www.zooplus.co.uk/shop/fish/decoration/natural_decoration/natural_rocks/317311

Is it right that peat moss lowers the hardness of the water?

I've read some conflicting things about the effects of peat moss on a tank.

Thanks all for the responses so far, its been great learning

ColinB · « **Reply #8 on:** May 25, 2016, 12:17:00 PM »

Quote from: HalfY on May 25, 2016, 11:52:27 AM

Is it right that peat moss lowers the hardness of the water?

I've read some conflicting things about the effects of peat moss on a tank.

Thanks all for the responses so far, its been great learning

You'll need half a tank of peat moss!!

What people tend to do is filter their water through peat moss before they do a water change with it. There's quite a few videos etc on 'tinterweb of contraptions people have made for this. However; I would frown at the use of such a valuable environmental resource.... but that's just me.

For a few years when I lived in the South-East I mixed my water change water 50:50 with rain water to get the GH down to 8°. However; I did have 3 big water butts and I've only got a 55litre tank.

Your figures sound like what to expect from an aquarium that's gone through the cycling process - but you get the 'ThinkFish Cycling Trophy' for the fastest ever cycle. I'd keep a close eye on your figures and go easy on the stocking.

I don't think we've had any pictures of your tank yet..... it's the law, you know

Richard W · « **Reply #9 on:** May 25, 2016, 04:54:36 PM »

There's confused thinking around "peat moss" (as in many things about fish keeping). Peat moss is living Sphagnum moss. It will have no effect on pH. When it dies and accumulates it turns into peat, which is "moss peat" (not peat moss!). That would have some limited effect on pH, but more significantly it will leach tannins into the water. Soft acidic water tends to have tannins naturally, and fish from those types of water might possibly benefit.
Red-tailed sharks can be fine for a year or two or more, but they are long-lived fish and generally become more territorial and aggressive as they age. So if someone says theirs is OK in their community tank, I'd ask if they've had it in there for at least 3 or 4 years. I get very annoyed that fish shops continue to stock fish like these (as juveniles) and promote them as suitable for communities. The same is true for Clown loach, though for different reasons (they grow too big for most tanks). Together with many cichlids, they are fish which look good in the shop and hence tend to attract buyers on "instant eye appeal", the worst reason to choose a particular fish.

Sue · « **Reply #10 on:** May 25, 2016, 05:09:11 PM »

Looking at the links, neither substrate or rocks would appear to be the kind that increase pH (and hardness). If the pH of a sample of tap water that has stood for 24 hours is lower than the tank, I would test the gravel and rocks. To do this you need three tubs. Put water in all three, then gravel in one and a rock in another. After a week, test the pH of all three tubs. Compare the water with rock and gravel to the just-water tub. If they are the same, neither is the cause but if one or both is higher, you've found the cause.

It is easier to keep fish that like your hardness rather than try to change the hardness to suit a particular fish. The profiles on Seriously Fish show the range of hardness preferred by each species.

ColinB · « **Reply #11 on:** May 25, 2016, 05:10:09 PM »

Curses, Pete Moss.... you've triumphed again. But I will be avenged! Bwahahahaha.

HalfY · « **Reply #12 on:** June 02, 2016, 12:36:50 PM »

Hi again folks,

apologies for the slight delay in getting back to everyone

Quote from: ColinB on May 25, 2016, 12:17:00 PM

Your figures sound like what to expect from an aquarium that's gone through the cycling process - but you get the 'ThinkFish Cycling Trophy' for the fastest ever cycle. I'd keep a close eye on your figures and go easy on the stocking.

I don't think we've had any pictures of your tank yet..... it's the law, you know

I was also very surprised that it had only been just under two weeks before the nitrite levels had dropped!!

So do you need me to provide an address for the trophy to be sent too?

Been regularly checking the water parameters every 2/3 days and there hasnt been any radical changes, slight increase in nitrate, which is when I'll do a 20-25% water change if its close to 40ppm. But ammonia and have stabilized at 0, and pH is stable at 8.2-8.3.

I recently bought some peat moss granules for aquariums, and last night added a small filter bag with 2 tablespoons of peat into the canister of my filter and will be monitoring the pH over the next month or so to see if there has been any change what so ever. Thought I'd give it a bash to test out if nothing happens in the next month or two, maybe I'll look into getting a RO unit instead.

Quote from: Sue on May 25, 2016, 05:09:11 PM

Looking at the links, neither substrate or rocks would appear to be the kind that increase pH (and hardness). If the pH of a sample of tap water that has stood for 24 hours is lower than the tank, I would test the gravel and rocks. To do this you need three tubs. Put water in all three, then gravel in one and a rock in another. After a week, test the pH of all three tubs. Compare the water with rock and gravel to the just-water tub. If they are the same, neither is the cause but if one or both is higher, you've found the cause.

It is easier to keep fish that like your hardness rather than try to change the hardness to suit a particular fish. The profiles on Seriously Fish show the range of hardness preferred by each species.

Hi Sue, I tested the tap water after 24 and 48 hours, and as suspected the pH was around 8.2.

I looked up what types of fish are well suited for hard/alkaline water and there seems to be a good variety most recommended types were livebearers and cichlids, so will be going with those, any others you could recommend? As I'm not to sure about keeping cichlids just yet. My preferred LFS mentioned alot of the fish they keep do well in our water.

I bought myself a blue phantom pleco and another siamese algae eater over the weekend. the pleco is doing really well but unfortunately the siamese algae eater has been incredibly reclusive, bless her she's probably the smallest fish in the tank right now and is always hiding amongst the plants. No signs of disease just yet though. We thought she might be come out of her shell after a few days like our other S.algae eater but unfortunately not. Our other one is absolutely thriving though! and has grown so much over the 2 week we've had them.

I've attached (hopefully) a picture of my tank, never been much of a law breaker, hope you like it

ColinB · « **Reply #13 on:** June 02, 2016, 01:38:25 PM »

Good lookin' tank.

Quite a number of Barbs will do well in hard water, though a few of them are a bit boisterous and should be kept in shoals of ~10 or more, esp. Tiger barbs. Ticto Barbs (a.k.a. Odessa Barbs) are beautiful and well suited to a hard water tank.

Livebearers are a bit of a pain 'cos they keep giving birth and you're saddled with kids that you have to feed, look after and give away, if possible. mmmmm - I've heard that somewhere before!

Matt · « **Reply #14 on:** June 02, 2016, 04:29:11 PM »

A beautiful looking tank

Be careful with cichlids - many prefer soft water - see the profiles on this site for more info.

Sue · « **Reply #15 on:** June 02, 2016, 04:37:28 PM »

South American and African cichlids from rivers prefer soft acid water. Central American cichlids and those from the African Rift Lakes need hard, alkaline water.

There are problems with both hard water types - Central American cichlids tend to be on the larger side and would eat small fish, while Rift Lake cichlids should be kept only with fish from the same lake of origin (ie you can't mix cichlids from Lake Malawi with those from Lake Tanganika), though there are a small (very small) number of non-cichlid fish that can be kept with them.

Littlefish · « **Reply #16 on:** June 02, 2016, 06:02:18 PM »

Nice tank.
Congratulations.

fcmf · « **Reply #17 on:** June 02, 2016, 11:07:45 PM »

Indeed - nice tank. I see the fish even have their own TV on the right hand side in the tank.

Out of interest, what are little red blobs near the front? They look good and resemble raspberries.

HalfY · « **Reply #18 on:** June 03, 2016, 10:26:13 AM »

Thank you everyone!

Quote from: fcmf on June 02, 2016, 11:07:45 PM

Indeed - nice tank. I see the fish even have their own TV on the right hand side in the tank. Out of interest, what are little red blobs near the front? They look good and resemble raspberries.

Yea the guppies love the F1 haha

, the red blobs are actually just glass marbles which my fiance put in there to resemble lava balls I actually really like them tbh

think I'm gonna stay clear of cichlids for a while and just stick to livebearers and a few others for now. maybe look into it once I'm a bit more clued up on keeping fish

Also just wanted to get some advice on my incredibly shy siamese algae eater which I mentioned in my earlier post, I'm starting to get worried about her as she's been in there for 6 days now and we really have to look to find her. she's always hiding in the plants and I havent seen her eat anything yet, just getting a bit worried for her, any advice?

Our other S.algae eater is incredibly active always munching on things and swimming happily. they were put in a week apart though, the active one was in first

Sue · « **Reply #19 on:** June 03, 2016, 11:39:28 AM »

Do you know the species of the SAEs? There are a few possibilities.

Crossocheilus atrilimes "are best kept in groups of at least 6 since weaker fish may be bullied if smaller numbers are kept"
Also known as Crossocheilus siamensis.

Crossocheilus langei - best kept as above.

Epalzeorhynchos kalopterum "This species probably lives a solitary lifestyle"

There are several other species named across the net but not all of them are actually different species, but the same ones with different names. They can also be called flying fox, siamese flying fox, siamese algae eater, false siamese algae eater etc. And as you can see from the links, some need to be kept in shaols while others should be kept alone.

Identifying the actual species you have is the first step. Going by the common name is of little help as shops, and indeed websites, use the common names interchangeably. For instance, the fish in the first link is called siamese flying fox on here and siamese algae eater on Seriously Fish.

From the first link on Seriously Fish

Quote

This species is among a handful of near-identical congeners that are traded as ‘Siamese algae-eater’ (often abbreviated to ‘SAE’), ‘Siamese flying fox’ and ‘Crossocheilus siamensis’.

The latter name is not valid, however, and is a synonym of Epalzeorhynchos siamensis which is itself a synonym of Crossocheilus oblongus, a species described from Java. .........and is almost certainly not the ‘SAE’ in the aquarium hobby.

Separating the species found on sale as ‘C. siamensis’ is tricky but differences do exist if combinations of characters are considered.

The passage goes on to describe how to identify the various species.

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In Mid Cycle (we Think) And Need Help/advice To Lower The PH

In Mid Cycle (we Think) And Need Help/advice To Lower The PH

Author Topic: In mid cycle (we think) and need help/advice to lower the pH (Read 13421 times) 27 replies

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