Hi, Hello And Help!!!

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Offline NJC1983

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Hi, Hello and Help!!!
« on: March 05, 2013, 12:26:58 PM »
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Hi, I'm Natalie

Haven't kept tropical for about 7 years now, but have loved it in the past and my little boy really wanted fish so here we are.

Tank is Fish R Fun 611, enclosed, triple filtration (tank top), T5 lighting (single strip), 70l...it was bought, cleaned and set up on 10th February.  I've used gravel and silver sand substrate and have mopani wood and a little artificial cave thing and plants.

Water - Is at 25c, I used Tetra AquaSafe and API supplement to boost bacterial filtration and left it until 26th February (Little man's birthday) and then had water tested and introduced 8 Danios...again using the API (quick start I think it is).

Well to say the least I don't remember it being this stressful and I'm sure I've buggered something up somewhere along the lines!!!

On day 3 one of my Zebra Danios completely disappeared.....and I mean nowhere to be seen!! Not in the tank, filter, floor....don't have a cat and my dog was with me so i know it wasn't eaten...  :/

Had water tested again on the 3rd March and Ammonia and Nitrites.   (During the week of having my fish I've been using Tetra 6 in 1 strips and noticed that the nitrites and nitrates have steadily risen....I assumed this was a normal part of the cycle??)

03/03/2013
pH - 7.5
Nitrite - 0.50
Ammonia - 1.0

Now this is where the confusion started for me anyway...the lady in the aquatics centre started throwing Pure Aqua balls at me, advising 25% water change every other day and bring water in to be tested in 7 days.... I purchased a Nutrafin Mini Master kit and tested again when I home and my readings show my pH at more like 7.3 and Ammonia at 0.6

I've used the Pure Aqua even though I've got the API stuff and did a small 10% water change but I'm not inclined to do anymore until I've got further advice.....from what I've read my tank will stabilise within a couple of weeks....Please please help me I'm so confused.


Also I've had issues with the Danios they have sold me, 1 has developed Cotton Mouth after 5 days (treating whole tank with Melafix and Pimafix....Carbon removed from filter) and now another one seems to be flashing (Today - Day 7)....called and was advised that the fungus and white spot would take around 10 days to really establish itself within a tank. I told them it must be their fish then....."Oh well that's just a guideline"

A Selection of Fish in my Fish Community Creator Tanks
Japonica Shrimp (5) - Zebra Danio (8) - Dwarf Gourami (2) -
Note: The user may not necessarily own these fish, these are tanks that they may be building or researching for stocking purposes


Offline Sue

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Re: Hi, Hello and Help!!!
« Reply #1 on: March 05, 2013, 02:38:38 PM »
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The first thing to say is that the advice to water changes was good. You need to be doing them daily at the moment.

A quick lesson in the nitrogen cycle - don't worry, it's not too complicated  :D
Fish make ammonia - it's in their waste and they breathe it out. But ammonia is toxic, it burns the fish's skin and gills making it hard for them to breathe. In a tank which has a cycled filter, there is a colony of bacteria in the filter which eat the ammonia and turn it into nitrite. But nitrite is also toxic - it binds to the fish's blood making it hard for the blood to absorb oxygen. In a cycled filter, there is a second colony of bacteria which eats nitrite and turns it into nitrate. This is only toxic at high levels.
Cycling is the term used for growing these bacteria and it takes several weeks, even months. Despite what the shop would have us believe, very few of the cycling products, such as the API one you used, do it instantly.
You are now doing what is called a fish-in cycle and it will need some work on your part to keep the fish alive until the filter cycles. This is something that very few shops will tell you.

The way to do a fish-in cycle is to do as many water changes of a big a volume as necessary to stop both ammonia and nitrite from ever getting higher than 0.25. If either are 0.25 when you measure, you need to do a water change immediately as it will go above that by the time you test again. To be honest, the lady at the aquatics centre is a bit cautious saying 25% every other day. You need to be guided by the test results; if necessary you can do 90% every day. Water changes are stressful for fish, but being poisoned is even more stressful.
The Pure Aqua may help or it might not. From now on, test the water every day, or twice a day if you can manage it, and do a water change every time you see the reading for ammonia or nitrite approaching 0.25. With just the danios in there they shouldn't go up too fast.

Here is a 'how to' thread on fish-in cycling
http://www.thinkfish.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,17.0.html



As for the sickness, that is probably down to the poor water conditions. Having ammonia and/or nitrite in the water makes the fish stressed and more susceptible to infection. Keep on treating the fish. If the med has to be added daily, do a water change then add it. If the med is not dosed every day, on non-dose days add enough med to replace what was in the water you just took out eg if you remove 20 litres, add enough med to treat 20 litres.
Once you have successfully treated the fish, put some new carbon back in the filter to remove the left over med, then after a few days take it out and throw it away together with all the med stuck to it. Then, if it was my tank, I'd fill the carbon space with more sponge or ceramics as you don't actually need to run carbon full time.







Oh, and don't replace the sponges and ceramics like the manual probably says. You will have spent several weeks growing your bacteria, the last thing you want is to throw them away. Sponges and ceramic will last for years.

Offline NJC1983

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Re: Hi, Hello and Help!!!
« Reply #2 on: March 05, 2013, 05:10:10 PM »
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Hi Sue,

Thanks for the reply and the thread link :D

I just wasn't sure as it's been a while.  I've just tested my water again without a water change and it's showing 0.4 ammonia now so something is working in there!! LOL

The fish treatment is daily for the Cotton Mouth and 1 dose weekly for the White Spot I've just bought.  I'll keep on with the water changes and fingers crossed it'll settle into a rhythm soon.

Thanks again.

A Selection of Fish in my Fish Community Creator Tanks
Japonica Shrimp (5) - Zebra Danio (8) - Dwarf Gourami (2) -
Note: The user may not necessarily own these fish, these are tanks that they may be building or researching for stocking purposes


Offline Sue

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Re: Hi, Hello and Help!!!
« Reply #3 on: March 05, 2013, 07:23:01 PM »
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At 0.4, you need to do a water change. At least 50% (more is better) to get it down below 0.25. Big water changes are safe so long as you get the new water to around the same temperature as the water still in there. Feeling it with your hand to compare will get it close enough.
You will find yourself having to do daily water changes for a while, then it'll be a couple of days before either/both ammonia and nitrite get high enough to need a water change. Slowly, you'll be able to go longer and longer between water changes, then one day you'll realise it's been a week since you had to do the last one, and that both have been at zero all week. That's when the filter will be cycled, and you can do weekly maintenance water changes.
As I said in the link, once you reach the point of zeros for a week, don't go and get a lot more fish at once. There will only be enough bacteria to cope with the ammonia from the fish you have. Adding too many more at one go will create so much ammonia the bacteria won't be able to cope. Slow and steady is the way to do it.

Have you found the community creator yet? It's a tool that tells you if a fish you like is suitable, and whether all the fish you want will fit. It's accessed through the fish profiles (see menu bar at top). Click on any fish and scroll down to the bottom of the profile.



Dose the cotton mouth med after a water change. I would hold off the whitespot treatment yet as it isn't usually a good idea to add more than one med at a time. Do the fish look like they've been sprinkled with salt or is it just the flashing? Because ammonia in the water irritates the skin and can make the fish flash to relieve it, so unless there are salt-like spots, I wouldn't use that med yet, concentrate on the other.

Offline NJC1983

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Re: Hi, Hello and Help!!!
« Reply #4 on: March 06, 2013, 09:52:45 AM »
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Hi Sue,

Just completed a 30l water change...I think that's around 50% allowing for my plants, decor and substrate as the tank is only 70l. 

Water tests are
NH3 - 0.3
NO2 - 0.3
NO3 - 20
pH - 7

I've added 2 tspn of aquarium salt and all the fish are now flashing and 2 have little patches...would you recommend using the white spot meds now instead?? I haven't medicated the tank just yet.

I'm going to do the same water change every morning now as you said but just worried that my little beauties are sick :-/

Thanks again for your advice

Natalie xx

I have continued to add that API quick start...and I'm starting to see a colour change on the filter sponge. Is this the start of "filter bloom"?

A Selection of Fish in my Fish Community Creator Tanks
Japonica Shrimp (5) - Zebra Danio (8) - Dwarf Gourami (2) -
Note: The user may not necessarily own these fish, these are tanks that they may be building or researching for stocking purposes


Offline Sue

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Re: Hi, Hello and Help!!!
« Reply #5 on: March 06, 2013, 12:21:17 PM »
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Is the Nutrafin test kit one of those that only "less than" something as its lowest colour? If it is, then aim to keep both ammonia and nitrite at the lowest one.

The salt will help with the nitrite, and can also help with whitespot in conjunction with a raised temperature (30oC) But if what you also have is columnaris, raising the temp is not a good idea.

The white patches - are they grain of salt size or bigger?
If bigger, carry on with the first med.
If they are 'grains of salt' you need to remove the first med before treating. Do a big water change then put carbon in the filter for 24 hours. The water change will remove a lot of the first med and the carbon will get the rest. Then add the whitespot med. You need to follow the instructions to the letter. This explains about whitespot and its lifecycle http://www.thinkfish.co.uk/health/whitespot.html The parasite can only be killed in the free swimming stage and since there will be parasites in all the stages in a tank, there must be some medication in the tank when every last one gets to the stage where it can be killed. Since it is probably not a food idea to increase the temp in your case, I would carry on the treatment a bit longer than it says.
If you find ammonia/nitrite and need to do a water change, don't forget to replace the amount of med you take out after you've finished.


The filter bacteria live in the biofilm that grows on every surface in the tank. They just grow mostly in the filter as there's lots of water flowing through bringing oxygen and food, and the media is designed to have a huge surface area so plenty of room for the bacteria.
White sponges do go a brownish colour, but it is impossible to say by looking at it whether the bacteria are growing or not. The fact that you have nitrite means you must have some algae eaters. Increasing nitrate would show that you have nitrite eaters but with all the water changes you are doing, coupled with the fact that it is difficult to see small changes with our nitrate testers means that isn't a reliable way to tell. The best way will be when you find the nitrite level is not going up as fast.
The brown gooey stuff building up on the sponge is fish poo, uneaten food and dead bits of plant, if you have any. It should be washed off by gently squeezing the sponge in water that you take out of the tank during a water change.

Offline NJC1983

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Re: Hi, Hello and Help!!!
« Reply #6 on: March 06, 2013, 02:43:30 PM »
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The Nutrafin tester shows no colour at all for nil quantities, but only has 5 colour matches for each substance.

I've just been to the aquatics centre to have my water tested again as they use the API and it's showing 0 Ammonia, 0.25 Nitrite and 15 Nitrate on that test.

I have just purchased the API one from an online shop so I should be reading the same chemicals as everyone else by this weekend. 

I'm going with you on the meds Sue and I'll carry on with the Melafix for now as it looks more like floury patches than individual spots. 

Will update in the morning with new test results  xx

A Selection of Fish in my Fish Community Creator Tanks
Japonica Shrimp (5) - Zebra Danio (8) - Dwarf Gourami (2) -
Note: The user may not necessarily own these fish, these are tanks that they may be building or researching for stocking purposes


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