Tropical Fish Forum
Tropical Fish Keeping Help and Advice => New Fishkeepers => Topic started by: Extreme_One on May 21, 2015, 03:20:09 PM
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Hi! I'm pretty excited to be here. :wave:
I used to keep fish many many years ago when I was a teen. Recently put a small 20L tank of Guppies in my boy's bedroom and decided I had to get a tank of my own.
I have just embarked on a fishless cycle in my new 120L tank.
I've hard-scaped it and will plant it out when my cycle is complete. I'll post some photos when the water clears (tannins)
My water is (according to the Southern Water website) 107 ca mg/l or 267.5 CaCO3mg/l which I gather is too hard to keep Cardinal Tetras.
I have 5 large and 1 small pieces of Mopani wood in my 120L tank, this should soften the water a little, or so I understand.
Is there anything else I should consider or will I have to change my plan and keep Neons instead of Cardinals?
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Hi there :wave:
Unfortunately, neons need soft water too. Virtually all Amazonian fish come from soft acid water though some can take harder water than others.
I have a couple of reads for you
http://wetwebmedia.com/fwsubwebindex/fwhardness.htm
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/FWSubWebIndex/HardWatrCommTkStkMonks.htm
Obviously some of the fish in those links won't be suitable for a 120 litre tank but you should be able to find something. If in doubt check with Seriously Fish (http://www.seriouslyfish.com/knowledge-base/). This gives hardness requirements in either ppm CaCO3 or German degrees. Using the converter on here, 267 ppm = 20 German deg.
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Thanks Sue. I'll read those pages in detail later.
Seems I can keep Cardinals in up to 215ppm.
Is there anything I can do to soften my water further? Is it realistic to think I might be able to do something to lower mine to below 215?
Perhaps I can store rainwater and mix that with my tap water?
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The problem with trying to soften water is that it often has a hidden problem. Hard water is that water which has a lot of calcium and magnesium. Hardness doesn't measure other minerals. Adding chemicals to soften water replaces the calcium and magnesium with something else so the water still has a lot of minerals to affect soft water fish. This is the basis of a lot of water softeners which replace Ca and Mg with sodium.
A better way, as you suggest, is to use rainwater - as long as there is not much atmospheric pollution where you live - or to use RO (reverse osmosis) water. If you haven't come across that term before, it is water that has had all the minerals removed and can either be bought from some fish shops or made at home using an RO device. The downside to either rainwater or RO to mix with your tapwater is that you have to use exactly the same ratio at every single water change. This could work out expensive for RO and difficult for rainwater if we have a drought. Provided that you make sure you always have rain/RO water on hand, this is the best option for soft water fish.
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Thanks again Sue.
I'm going to talk to my LFS about RO water. I'm thinking if I do 20L each time I do a water change. I'm thinking a few ££s each month is a small price if I can keep the community I want.
Ofc I'll conduct a GH test with the blended water before I add Tetras.
Does that all sound sensible/plausible?
In other news, I'm really pleased that on Day3 of my Cycle I saw a significant drop in Ammonia and measured 2ppm of Nitrites.
I had squished the foam from my kid's filter in the water last night and it's seeding seems to have started the process already! :cheers:
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That's the advantage with seeding, the cycle goes much faster. It's getting the bacteria started that's the slow bit.
Mixing RO with your tapwater sounds like a good plan. At first you'll be going by trial to see what is the exact ratio you need but after a few times you'll know exactly how much RO to add to get it right. The time to start mixing is as soon as the cycle finishes so the fish go into tap/RO mix. Another reason for waiting till then is that the bacteria prefer high pH and lots of carbonate to multiply quickly so mixing RO in before the cycle finishes could slow it down a bit.
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Thanks very much for all the advice Sue. :-*
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So I asked my LFS about RO water and they sell 25L for £3, so there's my solution.
I've found a 25L container on Amazon, and a little heater to bring it to temp. I just need to find the right, cheap pump to do my monthly water change.
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my monthly water change.
You should be doing a water change more often than once a month. Some advocate 25 to 30% weekly, others 10 to 15 % twice a week. I've even seen 50% weekly as the absolute minimum.
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Thanks Sue.
My initial plan is to do 10% weekly and 25% monthly.
But regular water tests will tell me if I need to change that regime.
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You need to do water changes as often and as large as necessary to keep your nitrate from going any higher than 20ppm above
your tap water level the level in the tap/RO mix. Nitrate isn't the only thing that builds up but we can't measure for other things so we use nitrate as a marker for everything. Except for people with lightly stocked and/or very heavily planted tanks, this means water changes at least once a week.
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I'm going with fairly heavy planting, just considering liquid carbon ...
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B001B5SIEI
Does anyone have any experience of using liquid carbon? Perhaps I should start a new thread ... ?
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Have amended my last post as I just remembered you'll be using a tap/RO mix rather than all tap water :-[
And yes, it is probably a good idea to start a new thread about liquid carbon in the 'Fish Tank Plant Advice' section.
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just as an aside really, whats the water conditions at your local dealers like? dont forget a lot of these fish (in fact most nowdays) are tank bred, you'll see that their parametres are sometimes adjusted, I hate to play devils advocate but I'll be a monkey's uncle if you cant keep cardinals in your setup............. you may not breed them without having more of a match but you'll still have healthy fishies that live out their lives happy and content. Please dont think I'm saying water quality isnt important, it defo is but please dont lose sight that a fish will prefer slightly off hardness and PH but zero nitrites rather than the other way around. I'm sorry, i feel like you'll read this and think.......... is this guy for real?! but what I'm trying to get accross is that you can get too hung up on the numbers sometimes and lose the experience through nerves.
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just as an aside really, whats the water conditions at your local dealers like? dont forget a lot of these fish (in fact most nowdays) are tank bred ... I'm sorry, i feel like you'll read this and think.......... is this guy for real?! but what I'm trying to get accross is that you can get too hung up on the numbers sometimes and lose the experience through nerves.
Great question!
I did check with the LFS and their main system is fed with tap water just like mine.
However, the Cardinals and the Neons are in separate tanks off the main system with remineralised RO water. Now, this could just be the LFS trying to sell RO water...
But the two tanks in question certainly do appear to be on a separate system.
In some ways I'd think I might take the risk but ... My GH is roughly 15 and all the expertise is saying that Cardinals want no higher than 10.
I'd rather not have to mess around with RO water but I feel that I'd probably just be doing the Tetras damage.
All the other species I've selected would be fine, but I do have my heart set on a shoal of Cardinals now. I've not heard of anyone else saying they've happily kept Cardinals in water like mine.
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honestly.......... I think they'll be fine, R/O water is excellent but please dont forget that it strips so many good things out of the water too, I've seen many marine systems using cheap salt mixes fall foul of that, added to the fact that its a pain in the posteria lugging the stuff about unless you get your own unit and throw hundreds of gallons away every year. someone somewhere on here is keeping cardinals in the same water conditions as you have, I bet theres thousands of people that are including dealers and retail outlets. as I said before, dont lose sight of your water parameters but dont let them rule you either........ I've had community tanks all over the UK and i would say that 75% of them have had cardinals in that were healthy and happy.
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Food for thought. Thank you. :cheers:
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Tank bred Cardinals will be more well suited to a higher pH and hardness than their wild relatives. If you can find a dealer that stocks locally bred fish then I'm sure you'll have no problem with them. I did read that hard water will significantly lower life expectancy due to organ failure when I was researching fish stocking option, but do you think I can find the link now?!?
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Honestly Mate, I know your doubting it but they will be fine. take the plunge. I see this is a new setup for you, just make sure you monitor the ammonia, nitrites and lastly nitrates, the fish are tolerant (to some degree) of the latter but the others are crucial. good luck to you :cheers:
Rich
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Thanks for the advice Rich.
I am still considering all my options.
Cardinals will be in my tank - and I don't want the hassle of RO if I can avoid it.
I think I'll buy a cheap TDS meter from Amazon and compare the water in my tank; with the bogwood and the plants and fertilisers and copepods, with the water in the Cardinal tank in my LFS.
If it's not a huge difference I may go for it.
I worry, if they're in RO or a RO/Tapwater mix then the drastic change in GH may be too much for them.
Exciting times ahead though ...
Currently keeping my bacteria fed whilst I plan and select my planting which I'm ordering on payday.
Then, when they arrive, the plants will go in and probably settle for a few days, and then the decision about RO or not RO and then the first fish will start to go in ....
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I'm a few weeks in after my decision to go with RO Water.
I'm glad I bought myself a TDS meter.
The first weekend, the day before putting in the first fish, I drained the tank and filled with 50L of RO and then used Tap Water for the rest.
I tested with the TDS meter and ended up with water of 180ppm hardness which is within the range of tolerance (recommended 18 – 215 ppm) for Cardinal Tetras.
Now, whenever I do a water change (currently about 10% twice a week) I fill with RO and then test with the TDS meter and add a small quantity of tap water to keep the hardness up around 175-180ppm.
I thought it might have ended up being a hassle but it's no more awkward to manage than using water straight from the tap, albeit apart from the fact that I'm going to the LFS each week to fill up with 25L RO.
At £3 per 25L it's not breaking the bank either.
I'm glad I made this choice, I'm happier knowing that the Cardinals are in more natural water.