Tropical Fish Forum
Tropical Fish Keeping Help and Advice => New Fishkeepers => Topic started by: Knight on January 14, 2016, 10:14:02 PM
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Hi all :wave: I have a quick question, not sure if it has been answered elsewhere, i have looked but cannot find an answer. I am currently cycling a new tank only a week or so into it, i have tested the ammonia levels twice following the excellent advice on the forum and i am due to test again tomorrow, but i have noticed that my water level has dropped between 2 and 5 liters, so my question is:
Should i test the ammonia level as it is then top it up, top it up then test it (worried that i will be diluting the ammonia to give different results which may affect the cycle?)
Any advice would be appreciated :)
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Hi Knight :wave:
I would add the water first, then test. The base line test, the one you did at the very beginning to which all the other tests are compared, was done on a full tank, so other tests need to be done on a full tank. Don't forget to dechlorinate the water, and to warm it a bit as tap water is very cold at this time of year (combi boiler - hot tapwater; other hot water heating - boil a kettle).
At the moment, topping up like this is not a problem. It will cause the natural minerals in your tapwater to become concentrated but if it is a fishless cycle, you have won't be affecting any fish. If you find you are losing water through evaporation once you have fish, it might be an idea to use RO water to top up, that way you won't add any extra minerals.
How big is the tank? Or in other words, does that 2 to 5 litres represent a large or small proportion of the water in the tank?
Assuming this is a fishless cycle, the water is usually kept warmer than after the cycle has finished to encourage the bacteria to multiply faster. This could be causing the evaporation and you may find it happens less once you have fish.
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Hi Sue,
Thanks for the quick reply :) i did not know you could use hot tap water with a combi boiler, that's great news my heater thanks you!!!
My tank is a 96 ltr but i only put in 84ltr at the start (water level measured 35cm initially now measured 32cm so it has lost 7 ltr) but i am running a HOB filter @ 600 LPH and the temp is approx 28c.
It is a fishless cycle i am trying to do, i wouldn't have it any other way....regardless of what LFS keeps telling me, and it's not just 1 at least 3 have told me to do it with fish in!!! they look at me strange when i tell them no lol
If you don't mind, could you tell me what RO water is? I have no idea!
Thanks again! :)
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Hi Knight.
Welcome aboard. Sounds like you've done your research and your fishless cycle is well underway. :cheers:
To answer your question about RO Water, it's water that has been passed through a Reverse Osmosis filtration system which strips out all the minerals that contribute to the 'hardness' of the water.
Hardness is a measurement of the dissolved mineral content in the water.
RO water has a hardness of 0. You can't keep fish in pure RO water as without the minerals acting as a buffer, PH is highly unstable and prone to crashing (that's plummeting to acidic water,)
You can fit an RO system to your home water supply, although this does generate a lot of waste water, or you can purchase RO water from most LFS.
My water is quite hard out of the tap, too hard to keep certain species, such as Cardinal Tetras, so I mix my tap water with RO water to soften it, yet it still has enough minerals to maintain a stable PH.
Some people use RO water and re-mineralise it with products you can buy specifically for that purpose.
Hope that helps.
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And if your tank suffers from evaporation, if you top it up with tap water you end up slowly making the water harder. Adding RO for top-ups mean you don't add any more minerals so the water doesn't get harder. This is not the same as water changes where you remove quite a lot of water and replace it with tap water - or as in Simon's case, you remove water that is a tap/RO mix and replace it with more water that is a tap/RO mix of the same proportion.
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And if your tank suffers from evaporation, if you top it up with tap water you end up slowly making the water harder.
Sue raises a really good point and I just wanted to elaborate, if only because when I first heard this it didn't immediately make sense.
I apologise in advance if anyone feels I'm stating the bleeding obvious. :)
The reason the water gets harder is that, through evaporation, the water is lost but the minerals are left behind, so they accumulate over time.
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Thankyou Sue and Simon i will try and source some RO water from LFS if my evaporation problem persists when i get some fish (can't wait lol)
Speaking of which, i am following sue's guide on fishless cycling and i am on stage 5 (just tested) my ammonia lvl is approx 1ppm but my nitrite is 5ppm+ is this normal at this stage or should i change something?
Also i have been reading alot about water parameters for fish, but never really understood hardness until this conversation started so i checked with water board here are the results:
Water quality details
Analysis Typical Value UK/EU limit Units
Hardness Level Very Soft
Hardness Clarke 3.850 Clarke
Aluminium 13.8 200 µg Al/l
Calcium 18.6 mg Ca/l
Residual chlorine - Total 0.60 mg/l
Residual chlorine - Free 0.55 mg/l
Coliform bacteria 0 0 number/100ml
Colour <1.32 20 mg/l Pt/Co scale
Conductivity 139 2500 uS/cm at 20oC
Copper <0.0046 2 mg Cu/l
E.coli 0 0 number/100ml
Iron <5.97 200 µg Fe/l
Lead <0.170 10 µg Pb/l
Magnesium 2.04 mg Mg/l
Manganese <0.983 50 µg Mn/l
Nitrate 1.84 50 mg NO3/l
Sodium 10.1 200 mg Na/l
and it is very soft! I have checked the fish profiles and there seems to be very few fish who can't tolerate this hardness, but do you guys no of any fish i won't be able to keep then i can avoid any mistakes...i was thinking of getting Rainbows or dwarf chichlids or dwarf gouramis i'm still playing around with the community app on here seeing what will/won't get along!!
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Sue/others will be better placed to answer your question on the fishless cycle.
As for water type, I too have very soft water - Ca/l 10.0, CaCO3 31.07, Clark 2.18. Initially, I was drawn to guppies, platies, mollies - these, however, are definitely not suitable. The Fish Profiles section on this website, plus Seriously Fish, are good for checking against ie if you identify fish which you like, then double check on each of these if your tank size and water hardness is suitable for them, that's a good start. Others with more experience on here will be able to advise further re the suitability of your fish. Looking forward to reading what you ultimately get.
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Provided you have followed my instruction to the letter, you don't need to do anything except monitor the pH. This fishless cycling method was written by a chap on another forum (I pinched it but didn't copy, if you see what I mean :) ). The old fishless method involved adding ammonia every time that dropped to zero, but that made so much nitrite it stalled the cycle. The critical point is 14 ppm nitrite but our testers can't measure that high and we would need very accurate measuring equipment and pure water to dilute a sample and get a meaningful result on the tester scale. So the other chap designed this new method in such a way that nitrite can never go above the critical value if it is followed strictly.
The reason I say to monitor the pH is because you have soft water. When GH is low, KH is usually also low. There are two problems with this. Nitrite and then nitrate are acidic and with low KH the pH could crash - and the filter bacteria don't like very low pH. And the bacteria need inorganic carbon (ie carbonate) to grow properly. If you find the pH is falling or even has fallen, all you need to do during cycling is add some bicarbonate of soda, sold in small tubs in the home baking section of the supermarket. Try 1 x 5ml spoonful for every 25 litres water. That's flat teaspoons as measured by a proper measuring spoon.
You can't use bicarb once you have fish, but regular weekly water changes should keep the KH topped up, or you might find you need to use some calcium containing decor (eg limestone rocks) or even crushed coral in a bag in the filter if you can fit one in.
As fcmf says, you just need to avoid fish that need hard water.
Dwarf cichlids will love your water. The easy to get ones are several species of Apistogramma and kribs. Some shops may also stock fish from the Nannacara and Laetacara genuses. (Should that be geni ??? )
Dwarf gouramis will be fine - though you do need to bear in mind that a lot of this species are already infected with an incurable disease by the time they get to the shop. Don't buy any fish from a tank that has iffy looking gouramis in there. Or look at honey gouramis instead.
You don't mention which rainbows, but with a tank your size you can't really get bigger than dwarf rainbowfish (Melanotaenia praecox). The lower end of their range is 5 deg GH so you might get away with them. If you like the look of them, featherfin rainbows (Iriatherina werneri) would be an option as they can go as soft as 1 deg GH.
If you want any shoaling fish, just look at the species native to the Amazon and its tributaries.
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Thanks for the heads up Sue!!! I checked my PH today and it had fallen to about 6.4!!! (initially it was 7.5) so i followed your advice and added 15ml of bicarb, tested 40 mins later and it's back to 7.5 :)
I have briefly looked at crushed coral, and from what i can see it does work, but i'm not sure how much i will need? and would it be ok to just drop it in the tank with the substrate ( i have a black gravel so it would look pretty good) or would i have to put it in the filter? (i could take some alfagrog out and put this in instead)
I just realised i haven't mentioned the size of my tank! it is 80cm(l)x 30cm(w)x40cm(h) and has 84 ltrs in it at the moment, i have a 600lph HOB filter and a small 200lph internal filter with a 150w heater and 3 mossballs aswell
Should i continue to test PH everyday or with every test i do until i can get some coral?
Thanks again for all your help guys and gals
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That sounds like you were on the verge of a complete crash. Somewhere in the cycling section of the forum you'll find an old thread by me when I actually did my first fishless cycle, but using the old method - the new method only appeared after I'd finished. I had a pH crash - the pH dropped off the bottom of the scale. I don't know how low it got because the tester only goes down to 6.0. My GH is 4.76 according to my water company (5 deg last time I had a test kit) and I last measured my KH as 3 which is why your low GH rang alarm bells with me.
Crushed coral would work better in the filter but it should also work as part of the substrate. It's just that the water flow in the filter would make it dissolve slightly faster. Strictly speaking, calcium carbonate is insoluble in water but that just means it doesn't dissolve like a spoon of sugar in a cup of tea. It does dissolve very slowly. And if you intend to buy rocks, just get limestone ones.
The thing you need to be careful with is pushing things too far. Calcium carbonate will increase GH (calcium) KH (carbonate) and pH. I would start off small.
The best person to help with the amounts and what to use is fcmf - very soft water too.
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The attachment shows a lump of limestone rock (Tufa rock) which I originally got for the 54-litre tank. When I bought it, I chopped off about 1/3 as it was quite soft on the day I bought it but hardened up afterwards. What is currently in the tank, therefore, is about half of the size of this.
The GH and KH from the tap are currently 2 each (GH looked as though it was on the cusp of 3).
Pre- this morning's water change, GH was 5 and KH was 3, so clearly the rock helps.
Post- water change (a bigger change than usual as I gave the substrate a deep clean), GH dropped to 3 and KH dropped to 2.
6 hours later, the GH has gone up to 4 and KH is still 2. Ordinarily, I find that the GH goes up to 4-5 and the KH goes up to 3 and stays at that for the duration of the week. Sometimes I put the large piece of rock back in, in addition to the smaller piece which stays in, and, in such instances, GH can go up to 6 and KH to 4. The only reason I don't keep the large piece in permanently is due to the space that it takes up but otherwise I would. I probably will put it back in now, given that I did a bigger water change than usual this morning and the KH hasn't gone up over the course of the day.
I ensure that I never leave more than 7 days between water changes, and usually try to do a mini water change midweek or even a couple of times midweek. Smaller, more frequent water changes are better than weekly large changes, as there is less of a drop in GH and KH readings after water changes. I have quite a strong syphon which unfortunately means that my intended 20% water change can end up being more than planned.
I've not mentioned the effect on PH, as that's another story in itself (ie not sure which test kit to believe) - but it generally raises it slightly and the readings tend to remain consistent since the rock has been in.
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Thanks for all the help :)
I do have another query though, i added my 2nd dose of ammonia to my tank on wednesday so tested it today:
Ammonia 0.25ppm
Nitrite 5ppm + (it has always been pretty unreadable, as soon as i shake the test tube it goes bright purple, nevermind waiting 5 minutes!)
Nitrate 40ppm????
Now following the guidelines in the fishless cycling section i should do nothing? but i am wondering as according to other forums i should do a 50/60% water change to get my nitrites down to a readable level, my LFS have said i'm pretty much done and should add fish now....i don't think so!!!
My PH seems to have stabalised since adding the bicarb, so i have not added the coral, should i leave that out for now?
Thanks again
Tony
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The other forums, are the using the old fishless cycling method, the one where you add 5ppm ammonia every time the reading drops to zero? That method did make so much nitrite, and eventually nitrate that the cycle stalled and you did have to do water changes to get them down low enough. As long as you are following the new method on here to the letter you shouldn't need to do a water change. Yes, nitrite will be over 5 as that's the highest the testers go but as long as it stays under 15ppm, which this method is designed to do, you won't need a water change. That going purple as soon as you add the drops just means the reading is off the top of the scale.
And nitrate of 40ppm shouldn't stall the cycle - some people have that level coming out of their taps. What is your tap reading? If it's less than 40, the extra has to come from somewhere, and that can only be from nitrite (unless you are also adding plant fertiliser) in which case you have some nitrite eaters growing.
You can leave the coral out for now since you've added bicarb. You'll remove that when you do the big water change at the end so that's the time to add the coral.
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Hi Sue
Thanks for your reply, so just to make sure i'm doing this right.....i should do nothing now until ammonia is 0 for 2 tests then add one third initial amount, then keep repeating until ammonia is 0 and nitrite is less than 1ppm, is thst right?
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sorry should have added to previous, should i leave it 2 days from now as my ammonia was only 0.25ppm today?
Thanks
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So I get it right in my mind:
You added 3ppm ammonia and tested every three days till the day you had ammonia less than 0.75 and nitrite over 2.
Then you added another 3ppm dose of ammonia.
If that's the stage you are at, you should now be testing every 2 days. You are now looking for 2 consecutive tests where ammonia is zero. That is, you find ammonia at zero and test again 2 days later and find it is zero again. Once you get those 2 zeros add a 1ppm dose of ammonia.
You say you added the second 3ppm dose on Wednesday. Today (Friday) your ammonia was 0.25. So yes, add nothing and test again on Sunday. If you then get zero ammonia, test again on Tuesday. If that too is zero, add the 1ppm dose. If Sunday is not zero, test on Tues and if that is zero, test Thurs and if it's zero again, add the 1ppm dose on Thurs.
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Hi Sue,
Sorry to be a pain but i have another question! You were right with your assumption above as to where i'm upto with the cycle, so i have tested the water today and i have 0ppm ammonia and 0ppm nitrite!! i don't know where all that went as it was 5ppm on sunday!! should i just add the 1ppm ammonia now or go to step 10?
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i have just tested nitrate levels and it's reading somewhere between 40 and 80ppm (it's difficult to tell the difference between the two!)
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Nitrate is notoriously tricky to read! What is your tapwater nitrate? You need to subtract that from the tank reading to see if there is any being made.
Yes, cycles can happen quickly, though not often.
I would add 1ppm ammonia to be on the safe side and test after 24 hours rather than the 2 days the method says. If the nitrite reading is zero again, do a dilution test - it doesn't have to be precise; just use about one fifth tank water and 4 fifths tapwater and test. If the test shows any purple at all you'll know the actual nitrite is still off the scale. If it is still sky blue, the pure tank water test is correct. The actual numbers don't matter, just blue or purple. The API tester has been known to go blue with an off the top reading and this will say if it really is zero or off the top. And if it is off the top, adding 1ppm ammonia won't do much harm.
If your readings are both zero after the 24 hours, add 3ppm and test again in another 24 hours.
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Hi Sue,
So....i did the dilution test and it was blue and both Ammonia and Nitrite were 0 so i added the 3ppm ammonia and have tested the water again just now (24hrs later) Ammonia is reading somewhere between 0 and 0.25ppm, but my nitrites have jumped back up to 5ppm (and i thought i was close to finishing lol) so looking back through the directions, do i now test tomorrow (fri) and if both are 0 add another full dose (if both are not 0 leave another 24hrs) and keep testing every 24hrs or do i revert back to the 1ppm dose when both are 0. Also my PH is rising slowly due to evaporation, it's currently at about 8 (from 7.5) should i be concerned with this?
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The problem with biological things is they never follow procedure to the letter.
I would treat things as though you'd never had that 0 nitrite. Go to stage #7 - testing every 2 days and wait for two zero ammonias. So test on Saturday, then Monday. If both are zero add 1ppm ammonia and continue testing every 2 days. If you don't get 2 zero ammonias, just carry on testing every 2 days until you do.
I am doing a fishless cycle as well, the first time I've used this new method. I am fed up with the internal in my betta's tank falling off the glass. He sleeps on it, which might have a lot to do with that. So I've got a sponge filter powered by an air pump. Unfortunately, there is no way I can use the internal's sponge so I'm doing a full fishless cycle in my quarantine tank. I haven't even squeezed any media into the QT as I want to see what this method is like. I'm using just 2ppm ammonia as the tank is 26 litres with just one fish and a small snail so they won't make 3ppm, probably not even 1ppm ammonia.
Yesterday (Thursday) was day 16, the fifth of the 3 day tests and the ammonia had dropped from 2 to somewhere between 1 and 2, and nitrite was 0.25. Next test is Sunday so I'm keeping my fingers crossed.
You are well ahead of me.
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Hi Guys n Gals,
I THINK I'M DONE!!! :)
Test results tonight, 24hrs after full 3ppm dose..
Ammonia 0ppm
Nitrite 0ppm
Nitrate off the chart!!
Just to make sure though, i have added a full dose again and will test tomorrow!
Couple of questions now though (surprise, surprise!)
Once i do the big water change, do i add more ammonia or just leave it till i get fish?
How many fish do i add in one go (i was thinking of keeping rummy nose tetra and cory's with a pair of peacock goby's if i can source them) and how often can others be added after the first ones?
Also Sue if you are reading this, you know i have very soft water and i was wondering if i changed approx 15% of my water twice a week would that be enough to keep my PH stable of would you still add the crushed coral? if so, how much?
Also (lol) i am soaking a piece of Red Moor root and have been for about 2 weeks as it won't sink!!! and want to add that...there is no tannis leaching from it, so will that affect my parameters?
Thankyou once again.
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Well done!
If you can't get fish straight away, add the 1ppm dose of ammonia every 2 or 3 days until you are ready to go shopping, then do the big water change either the day before or even just before you go.
In theory you can get all the fish at once provided the shop will sell you that many. In practice, it is better to leave sensitive fish until the biofilm has developed a bit more, so wait a few weeks for those fish. I would class cories in this group.
Redmoor wood does take ages to sink. Either leave it soaking a bit longer (it will sink eventually, I have several pieces and the bigger ones took weeks) or fasten it to a piece of rock to hold it down till it stays down by itself.
As for your soft water, 25% twice a week would be better. Monitor the pH daily at first then you can see if you will have problems. My KH is 3 and provided I do water changes of at least 25% every week without fail I have no problems. You could try getting a sample of tap water tested for KH at a fish shop then you'd know if you really do need to add crushed coral or whether water changes will be enough.
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Thanks Sue,
Also i ment to ask, so far i have been adding hot water from the tap (combi) as you said, when i do water changes can i still use this or would i have to find some other way of heating the water, from what i have read on the internet rummy nose's can be sensative to temp changes as well as ph/nitrite/nitrate lol it sounds like they might not be right for a newbie!?
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Using hot water from a combi boiler is fine with fish. It's the older systems like ours you have to be careful with. We have a hot water cylinder that is filled from an open topped tank in the attic, and it is that tank that can cause problems. Because it is open topped (just a loose cover) all sorts of things can get into it eg dead mice, and decomposing mice in hot tap water won't be good for fish. It's also why you should never, ever use hot water like this for cooking.
Rummies can be sensitive, but so can a lot of other tetras. Looking at your water company's table higher up, at least you don't have to worry about nitrate :)
Are you set on rummy noses or are you happy to go for something else (and maybe get rummy noses in the future if you catch multi tank syndrome)?
Multi tank syndrome - an affliction of fish keepers characterised by the almost uncontrollable desire for more and more fish tanks. In my case it is only kept in check by a husband who has no interest in fish ;D
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Yeah, i am open to suggestions, there are so many to choose from!! I was thinking maybe glowlight tetras instead or maybe the glowlight danio? would they be easier to keep?
Just out of interest i tested the pH of the water that i have my wood soaking in for 2 days to see if that was stable, but that has dropped to somewhere between 6.6 and 7 (the colours are very close so it's hard to tell exactly) but out the tap it is 7.5! so i think i may need to use the coral just to be on the safe side!
Would anyone know how much to add, i have trawled the web looking for an answer to this, but cannot find anyone who specifies quantities, and i really don't want my pH dropping so much when i have fish in!!!
I also have some cricket dust (it is 99% pure calcium carbonate) would that be usable in a fishtank???
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I've just googled cricket dust to see what you meant and the links I found say it is a dust you apply to live reptile food so the reptile will eat it. If you put that in your tank you'd probably get a very cloudy tank. Something a bit more substantial than a powder is what you need - though if you mean something else by cricket dust can you explain what it is please.
Things people use are crushed coral, lumps of coral, shells, limestone (tufa) rocks - if you wanted any rocks in the tank for decoration get limestone/tufa and kill two birds with one stone.
This is also the reason for doing two water changes a week, and smaller than usual ones. If you remove a lot of water from the tank that has calcium carbonate dissolved in it and replace it with water that has virtually none, the change in hardness will affect the fish. More frequent, smaller water changes means less hardness going out of the tank in one go.
There is something else you could try. People who use RO water need to add minerals back into the water so they use remineralisation salts. For example Tropic Marin salts (http://www.tropic-marin.com/suesswasserpflege/de-re-mineral-tropic-en-re-mineral-tropic-fr-re-mineral-tropic/?lang=en). Be careful as there is a marine version too.
If you wanted to use this you would need to add it to the tank before getting fish, and you'd need a hardness testing kit to make sure you got it to the hardness you wanted. I would not suggest trying to make the water very hard, just raise the KH enough. Somewhere about 4 degrees (70ppm) would stop a pH crash.
When doing water changes you would need to add the salts to the water before it goes in the tank. Again, you'd need to test it for the first few times, then you'd get to know how much you'd need to add.
Both glowlights would be fine, and a bit hardier than rummies.
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Hi Knight,
You're correct - there are many species of fish to choose from, and your tank size would be fine for either the glowlight tetras or glowlight danios. Take a look at some videos online to see if a shoal of either attracts you more in the way they move, etc. Danios tend to be quite fast-moving, so you'd need to be careful that whatever tankmates you choose are similar and able to 'compete' with them for food. Danios also tend to prefer a lower temperature than many tropical fish, so you'd need to be careful that any potential tankmates also prefer that range. If you're undecided between them, my feeling is that you'd probably have a better range of potential tankmates if you opted for the glowlight tetra and it would be ideal with your water parameters.
It's quite a good idea to browse in LFSs to get an idea too - I had a strong idea in mind of what I wanted but actually completely fell for another species of fish in a neighbouring tank. Take a look at my 'community creator' fish - they're all suitable for very soft water and some of them may take your fancy.
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Re the redmoor wood and pH, a thought occurs to me. Have I suggested testing a sample of water that has stood for 24 hours? Just run a glass of water, test straight away then leave it standing for 24 hours and test again. You'll probably find the two tests are different. Mine goes up by 0.2, other people have much bigger changes. Standing allows dissolved gasses to gas out of the water, which can change the pH.
If you want hardy fish that will cope with inexperience, and will live in a wide range of water types, look at cherry barbs. I got some a few months ago, a mix of normal and albino. The albino males are orange and the females are yellow with red fins and red 'lipstick'. Mine came from Maidenhead Aquatics if you have one near you and want to go window shopping.
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well it looks like i was a bit premature with my assumption that i was done! lol
Like i said i added an additional full dose after my 0 readings (that was Monday) yesterdays test showed:
0.25ppm ammonia
0 ppm nitrite (dilution test confirmed)
So...full dose added again, todays result:
0.25ppm ammonia
0 ppm nitrite (dilution test confirmed)
Nitrates of the chart still, so added full dose again and wait :vcross:
But at least i didn't add any fish :)
Thanks for the ideas fcmf, i am thinking the tetras would be better, as i am thinking of adding peacock gobies and from what i have read they are slow swimming fish? but i still have to source them...i must have changed my mind 10 times on species (i started with dwark chiclids and kribs with/or dwarf rainbows but i will wait and see if i delvelop MTS and some how mysteriously end up with a bigger tank :o (stranger things have happened!!)
Sue i will post my pH from the glass of water later as it's not quiet 24hrs yet (about 23.30) and i might just go window shopping tomorrow, is Maidenhead aquatics a good chain? there is one about 10 miles from me, so i might check it out.
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Maidenhead Aquatics is one of the better national chains, though as each shop has its own manager it can vary. MA has a list of fish that each manager can choose from and it is up the individual manager which fish he/she chooses from that list. So although almost all branches will stock the common (ie popular) species, the not quite so common will vary from branch to branch. Most will order in fish as long as they are on the list, so if they don't have them, just ask. Peacock gobies were on the list last year as the one nearest me had them in.
If you get peacock gobies, provide them with very small caves with ridiculously small openings. I mean caves that are just about fish sized. They prefer these for spawning in. I had some a few years ago and they spawned in a 1 inch tall plantpot in the quarantine tank!
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i have just tested the water that has been stood for 24hrs and the pH is the same (7.6 normal pH, 7.4 high pH so 7.5) as it was when it came out the tap! I will eave it another 24hrs and test again.
To be honest Sue, i don't have any caves THAT small lol i have 4 in the tank at the moment of varying sizes (i just chopped up a resin log ornament that came with the tank) but they were more with kribs/agassizi's in mind!
I meant to ask you earlier...how's your cycle coming along? are you any nearer?
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In that case, don't worry about the pH. It just occurred to me that the water in the bucket with the redmoor wood could have fallen because that's what your water does on standing, without redmoor wood. Since your tap water doesn't change on standing, it's the wood dropping the pH in the bucket. The effect should diminish over time. But it does mean that it is likely to drop the pH in your tank, so doing a big water change would alter the pH in the tank quite a bit - smaller, more frequent water changes would be better.
The gobies will breed in something bigger, they tend to like small entrance holes. If you could find something to reduce the entrance hole to almost the width of the fish, they'd be happier. With these fish it is dad that looks after the eggs, so the holes needs to be big enough for the male to fit through.
Read up on how to tell the difference between males and females - the best way is the shape of the head rather than colours on the edges of the fins, though bear in mind that the 'bulgy' head only develops at puberty and fish in the shop are usually youngsters. You need one male (or two males if the floor if the tank is easily divisible into two territories) and at least one more female than males. I mean 1 male and 2 or more females; 2 males and 3 or more females.
My cycle isn't going :( It got stuck. 5 days with no change in ammonia or nitrite. I started with 2ppm ammonia as the tank the filter is going in has only 1 fish and 1 snail and that was probably way more than it needs. On day 16 I had ammonia between 1 and 2 and nitrite under 0.25 (just the merest hint of purple, I had to do a test on tap water to see the difference). Day 19 exactly the same. Then I got impatient and tested on day 21 instead of day 22 and got exactly the same again. There is no substrate in the tank and there were big white flakes and tiny brown bits all over the bottom. So on day 21 (Tuesday) I emptied all the water, refilled and added 3ppm ammonia (so it fits in with the levels in the method). This is quite easy when your tank only holds 24 litres. Next test day is tomorrow.
I last did a fishless cycle 3 years ago using the old method, and the ammonia reading fell on day 12 - which is why I'm getting impatient this time.
I'm still wondering what all the bits were ??? One thing does worry me a bit. This is a sponge filter powered by a brand new air pump. The airline tubing is turning yellow where it leaves the pump. Is there oil residue or some such leaving the pump and making its way into the tank and when it meets water turning into the brown dust? Though I suppose that by the time this cycle eventually finishes, all the 'loose' chemicals from the pump will have gone.
I usually seed a new filter using old media but that is not possible going from an internal with a rectangular sponge to a filter which uses a specially shaped cylindrical sponge. I could have rinsed out some dirty media from another tank in the water to add a few bacteria and hopefully speed things up slightly, but it is good for me to see what new fishkeepers, with no access to old media, go through ;D
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Oh wow! i bet your gutted having to start again!!? that would drive me crazy! i'm still gutted that i can't get rid of that tiny bit of ammonia, even though technically the cycle was completed!!
I hope that you air pump sorts itself out this time round, have you contacted the manufacturer about it? or tried to get a replacement because that doesn't sound normal?
Do you have any idea why my pH dropped early in the cycle if my water stays stable after 24hrs? or is it the appearance of the bacteria that affected it? i have read that the nitrifying bacteria eat? the minerals in the water, though i don't think "eat" is the right word?
Took your advice and went window shopping today....bad idea lol there are so many, but i have fallen for the red whiptail catfish ( http://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/rineloricaria-sp/ )but they are quiet expensive at MA, they had them at "18.50 each :yikes: but it seems my water would be ideal for them, but now i need non nippy fish to go with them!
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I haven't exactly started again, I still have whatever bacteria have already grown in the sponge. It's just taking longer than 3 years ago. Maybe the water company have got better at killing bacteria since then :-\
Your pH drop during the cycle is for 2 reasons. First, the bacteria use KH to grow properly, and you haven't much to start with. Secondly, nitrite and nitrate are acidic and they react with carbonate, also removing the little you have. Once the KH has gone, there's nothing to stop acidic things lowering the pH.
In the bucket, the wood will leach acids such as tannic acid. This will react with the carbonate, removing it and with nothing to stop it the pH will fall.
The pH in the glass hasn't been affected because your water company does not add anything to alter the pH. It is common for some companies to pump carbon dioxide into the water. This acidifies the water and makes it less likely for calcium to be deposited in their pipes. Since you have very soft water this isn't a problem for the water company. Where carbon dioxide is added, it gasses out on standing, the water becomes less acidic and the pH goes up.
Oooh, and I thought my dwarf chain loaches were expensive :o . That's the trouble with window shopping, there are just too many fish to choose from. The worst is getting your tank fully stocked and then the shop gets some new species in.
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Just a quick thought...would adding live plants help with my pH issue?
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Only in the sense that they use ammonia as food so it never gets made into nitrate. But live plants are a Good Thing; fish do seem happier with them. If you aren't confident about your plant growing skills, there are some easy ones that even I have not managed to kill off.
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No....confident with plants is one thing i am not lol, i have been looking at supposedly easy plants (elodea densa/crispa) but what i know about plants, you could write on the back of a stamp and still have room left!
Any suggestions??
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The plants that work for me are those that grow attached to things rather than planted in the substrate. Look at java fern (there are a couple of more decorative varieties such as wendelov) and the various species of anubias. These plants have a rhizome which rots if planted though it is OK if the roots go down into the substrate. Just tie them onto your chosen bit of decor with sewing thread/fishing line until they attach themselves.
I've also had success with a plant called bolbitis. And there's hornwort for a quicker grower. That can be planted but it also grows well as a floating plant. Since you have some redmoor wood soaking, you could also try winding hornwort round that to anchor it. One end of my 50 litre tank is a tangle of hornwort wrapped round redmoor wood. The only downside with hornwort is that older stems drop their needle like leaves which then have to be hoovered off the substrate.
I've found it easier to buy these plants on-line as not many of my local shops stock them - they go for the ones that have to be planted.
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Thanks Sue, i'll have a look at them :)
But back to topic.....Help!!!! lol
I have just tested my tank water 24hrs after adding full dose:
Ammonia 0.25ppm
Nitrite 0.25ppm
pH 7.5
I seem to be going backwards? the last 3 times i have added a full dose of 3ppm after getting 0ppm i have not had a 0 ammonia reading, but my nitrites have been zeroed, now they are not? and my pH in the tank has dropped from 7.8 (that was last measured 01/01/16) should this be happening?
I haven't added anything yet, not sure whether i should?, so i'll wait to hear your thoughts.
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7.5 isn't too bad - not like the drop to below 6 that I had last time - but keep an eye on it and add more bicarb if it starts to drop further.
What I'd do now is wait 2 days and see what the results are. In they are zero add another 3ppm and test 24 hours later. The bacteria won't starve, and that 48 hours will give them chance to get rid of what's there now.
Don't forget that the ammonia test is notoriously difficult to read under compact fluorescent energy saving bulbs. if they are what you have, see if you can find an old incandescent bulb somewhere. Or a halogen bulb if you have those. Those energy savers are one of the causes of people complaining they've never seen a zero ammonia result.
I must experiment with the ammonia test under LED bulbs.....
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Thanks Sue, i'll give that a go, i was concerned that the nitrites had not gone this time around, i did check my levels 2 hrs after dosing it last night just to make sure it was not sky rocketing (2.7ml for 84ltrs) and it showed between 3-4ppm ammonia so that must be right, so like you said let them eat up before feeding again lol
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Hello again!
I have been decorating my tank over the weekend, whilst waiting for it to cycle (it seems to be going backwards at the moment!) and added the wood that i had been soaking and some live plants.
I tested the pH of the water today, and it has dropped to 6.6/6.8 (like the water in the bucket i was soaking it in) now this is OK for the fish i was thinking of keeping, in fact ideal, but then it i thought...what about future water changes? my pH out the tap as you know is 7.5, will adding this to the tank hurt the fish while the wood does it's job? or would i have to treat the water first? or even remove the wood altogether?
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If you do 2 15% water changes a week rather than 1 25% water change, the new water won't have as much impact on the pH and the fish should be fine.
You may find in time that the tank pH begins to creep up towards tap level as the tannins leaching from the wood become exhausted.
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Thanks Sue,
My cycle as i said, seems to be going backwards, i left it for 48hrs like you said, and checked parameters, Amm and Nitrite were 0ppm, i only added 2ppm Ammonia on Saturday, and have done for the last 3 days, but it will not clear all the ammonia in 24hrs, my test kit has shown 0.25ppm on everyone, my nitrites have varied between 0ppm and 5ppm and my nitrates are still unreadable. should i try something different or just carry on as normal? i started the cycle on 09/01/16.
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The ammonia tester can be very tricky. Some people do find it impossible to tell the difference between the 1 and 0.25 colours. It is not uncommon for people to have had tanks for years, full of healthy fish with an ammonia of 0.25, which is put down to the problems reading the tester.
Nitrite is different; it is usually very easy to tell that zero sky blue from even a hint of purple below 0.25.
Does nitrite ever drop to zero, and how long after adding the ammonia? If it is over 1ppm when you test, don't add 2ppm ammonia, just add 1ppm - but that is only when you also have zero ammonia twice, two days apart. Adding too much ammonia, even though nitrite is not going off the top of the scale, might be leading to too much nitrate which can also have a detrimental effect on the bacteria, coupled with the falling pH. These bacteria like high pH to multiply.
Thinking about it, remove the wood till the cycle finishes. If you can bear the thought, empty as much water as possible from the tank, refill it with warm water adding bicarb as you do so, then add 3ppm ammonia. This won't harm the bacteria you have already grown, they are nice and safe inside the filter (and on everything else in the tank) but it will reset the water back to low nitrate and high bicarb. Then test in 2 days, and again in another 2 days. If you have 2 zero ammonias, go by the nitrite readings.
If nitrite is over 1ppm at the same time as the second zero ammonia, add 1ppm ammonia; if nitrite is below 1 at that reading, add 3ppm.
I have 0.5ppm ammonia and 5+ppm nitrite today for the first time. It is day 28.
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Yeah, the ammonia never seems to show as the yellow printed on the card, so maybe i am being to cautious on that one? at worst it has been a very light green which i am reading as o.25ppm?, my nitrite when i tested it yesterday was 0ppm, but today i had a reading 0.25ppm? ammonia but nitrite was about 4ppm, i did do a 50% water change on Sunday night to try and reduce the nitrates, but it was still off the charts after the change, so maybe i should do another one today?
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That sounds like the ammonia tester being awkward.
I would do the really big water change (and remove the wood) mainly because of the current pH. Don't forget to add enough bicarb to replace the amount you take out with the water. Check the pH afterwards.
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Well that's me busy for a while lol, i'll let you know how it goes :)
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ARRGGGHHHHH!!!
I swear this is driving me crazy lol
Si, i changed 90% of my water last night to reduce the nitrates, let the tank settle for an hour and took some readings- amm 0.25ppm, nitrite 0ppm, nitrate 5ppm, happy days :) so i added the 3ppm amm and left if for 24hrs
24hrs later- (8.30pm) amm 3ppm, nitrite 0ppm? so, i scratched my head a bit....i had forgot to add bicarb on the water change like you suggested...pH 6...or less but thats as low as the kit goes!!
Does that mean that my cycle has now crashed and i'm back to square one? i have added bicarb now, just letting it circulate for an hour or so then i will check pH again. I am really concerned that if this happens with the fish i'm going to have alot of casualties.
Any ideas?
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The low pH shouldn't have harmed the bacteria, just stunned them a bit. Keep a check on the levels every day to make sure they are all OK.
These bacteria prefer a high pH. What people with very low pH from the tap do is to cycle with added bicarb then let the pH drop (usually be doing small water changes to remove the bicarb a bit at a time). As the pH falls slowly, the individual bacteria that really don't like lower pH will stop multiplying but those that can cope will still multiply. As the pH drops lower and lower, the ones that can't cope will be 'weeded out' leaving just those bacteria which can cope and they end up with a colony of low pH bacteria. This does take longer than the usual cycle as first you have to grow a full colony of bacteria then drop the pH.
With your hardness, you could try this and be able to keep some species that the rest of us only dream of. Or add something (coral, limestone, remineralisation salts) to prevent the pH dropping.
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Thanks Sue,
I added bi carb and the pH is now 7.8, i have not added any Ammonia, so i will leave it for 24 hrs and test again.
I did add 2 5ml spoonfuls of crushed coral to the filter after the change (maybe thats why i forgot about the bi carb) but that hasn't made any difference in 24hrs (obviously!) maybe that was not enough or too soon to tell?
Maybe i'll have a walk around garden centers/ fish shops and try to find a piece of limestone/tufa, that might work quicker than coral?
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Remember that calcium carbonate is officially insoluble in water. It does dissolve but slowly. Limestone/tufa also make nice decor.
A few years ago I did test some crushed coral. I put a layer about 1cm deep in a plastic tub, and filled it with water. I also set up another tub with just water to sit alongside as a control. After a week I tested the pH, GH and KH of both tubs.
The pH was 0.2 higher in the coral water compared to the plain water, and both GH and KH were 2 german deg higher in the coral water.
I did use a bigger proportion of coral to water coral than you'd use in the tank (unless it was used as substrate about 5 cm deep) so the effect of this test is greater than would be found in a tank, but you can see the effect I was getting after 7 days.
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Well it's been a while since my last post, things were a bit bleak after the ph crash, and it took a couple of days for the bacteria to recover , but i left them alone and followed from step 8, waited for my 2 zero ammonia results, got them but nitrite was still high, so added 1ppm amm, waited 2 days, then got step 10 result yesterday, so i added full 3ppm dose and have just tested now.....
Ammonia 4ppm???
Nitrite 5ppm
Nitrate 80ppm
I don't know how my ammonia level has actually increased at this point? I have just changed 20/25% of the water which has fetched the ammonia level down to approx 2ppm and nitrite to about 3ppm.
Should i now wait for the amm/nitrite levels to reduce to 0, and then dose to 1ppm again, or dose back up to full 3ppm when they have dropped, pH did drop from 7.8 to 7.5 2 days ago but has not moved since.
Just as a side issue, i purchased some tetra test strips over the weekend (mainly for the kh/gh ) and when i got the above results, i thought i would test them out!! The results where a bit alarming to say the lease.
Nitrite 0ppm (safe)
Nitrate 100ppm
pH 7.2
They don't have an ammonia test on them, but they look along way from accurate!!!
Any advice, as always, is greatly appreciated.
Tony
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I'll leave Sue/others to advise you on the main part of your queries due to their greater expertise in this particular area.
Just as a side issue, i purchased some tetra test strips over the weekend (mainly for the kh/gh ) and when i got the above results, i thought i would test them out!! The results where a bit alarming to say the lease.
* You mentioned that your PH was 7.5 on the most recent reading and that the Tetra test strip showed it as 7.6; the PH on the Tetra test strips goes up in 0.4 increments ie 7.2 and 7.6, so that sounds that it's giving a similar reading to your other test kit, and therefore that probably is where it lies.
* You mentioned that your nitrate was 80ppm on the most recent reading and that the Tetra test strip showed it as 100; the nitrate on the Tetra test strips has 50 and then 100 as the next level, so that again sounds that it's giving a similar reading to your other test kit, but that the other test kit may be able to pinpoint more accurately where between 50 and 100 it lies.
* As for the nitrite, that seems to be where the discrepancy is. The options on the Tetra test strip are 0, 1, 5 and 10. If you've shaken the vial vigorously, and your liquid test kit is easy to read, then your 5ppm or 3ppm reading may well the more accurate one.
Generally, people tend to find the liquid-based test kits more accurate but I don't necessarily find that (thread somewhere on this forum about that) and find some of the liquid-based ones difficult to read which is why I like both types to check one against the other.
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I find the ammonia test colours hard to distinguish once you get above 2. That's the downside to using 3ppm doses, there is no colour for 3ppm with the API tester so you have to estimate half way between 2 and 4. While I was waiting for my ammonia to drop it was going up and down like a yoyo over a ppm or two.
I'm not sure what to suggest next. I do realise you will be getting impatient for fish soon but I would be inclined to wait a bit longer, keeping on with the 1ppm doses. The danger comes with adding too much ammonia and creating too much nitrite or nitrate, both of which can inhibit the bacteria.
Do you know a shop that will test the water for you using a different brand tester? It would be interesting to see what they get.