Tropical Fish Forum
Tropical Fish Keeping Help and Advice => New Fishkeepers => Topic started by: Betta2020 on January 10, 2020, 05:54:35 PM
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Hi new to the hobby and new here. Would be grateful for any advice thanks. I've bought my 1st tank a fluval flex 34 which is going to be a planted tank. The only stock will be a single male Betta fish. The tank is planted and scaped. I am dosing daily with tropica fertiliser just incase this is useful info for any advice I receive from anyone.
I'm stuck now on how to get ammonia into the aquarium with a fishless cycle. I went to my LFS today to purchase a bottle of ammonia. The member of staff serving told me this was a out of date method. She tried to sell me a bottle of something I don't recall the name of. They said if used it the tank Would be ready for fish next week. I said I was happy to wait the weeks to cycle properly. They then told me this was a out of date method too. According to them I had to add fish the 1st week after this product to cycle the tank. They said waiting weeks was a myth.
I would like to know the best method for getting ammonia into the tank. I'm reluctant to use the prawn method. Worried about the smell. Want to keep the wife happy!
Also I want to raise my ph levels. The hardscape and soil have lowered it down to 6.0. I was hoping to use a bag of crushed coral. But was told this wouldn't work and to use a chemical that would raise it to 7.2 I believe. Which is the best safest method?
I left the shop without buying either product as I wasn't sure. Thanks for any advice. Sorry this post is so long!!
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Hi, welcome to the forum :wave:
Fish shops don't sell ammonia, they would much rather sell you a more expensive bottled bacteria, which may or may not work depending on which one and how it has been stored. And the best way to use these bottled bacteria products is to speed up a fishless cycle.
If the tank is well planted, you don't need to add ammonia. Just wait till you are sure the plants are growing and not about to die, then get a betta. The reason is that plants use ammonia as fertiliser and they don't turn it into nitrite. With just one betta in 34 litres, plants should take care of all the ammonia he makes. But better to be safe than sorry so monitor both ammonia and nitrite for several days after he arrives.
You don't need to raise the pH, a betta will be fine at 6.0. Yet again, the shop wanted you to buy a chemical from them; and it is never advisable to use these pH up or down type of products. If you do want the pH to rise slightly, then crushed coral will do fine. It will also increase hardness (GH) and carbonate hardness (KH) slightly.
As you may have gathered, the piece of advice we usually give is to ignore everything a shop says :)
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Thanks for the welcome and the advice. Ok that's great. I will monitor the plants and take it from there. Will think about the coral. I hadn't really considered the hardness etc I don't really want to increase this. Thanks again. :wave:
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Hi @Betta2020
Welcome to TF! :wave:
It sounds like you went to Pets@Home! The so-called advice that you were given is very odd. And I'm being polite!
Let's start again. As I understand it, your tank is already planted. You want to cycle the tank. There is not just one right way of doing this. People have their own particular preferences. But, this particular aspect of fishkeeping is one that I have researched extensively and I have successfully cycled tanks within a week. So, here goes:
1 Get yourself a Test Kit that will enable you to measure, as an absolute minimum, ammonia, nitrite and nitrate. It is also very useful to measure something called KH and pH. Knowing GH is also a good move. Companies such as NT Labs and API would be good starting points. You will also need a thermometer to measure the tank water temperature.
2 It would be very handy to get hold of your tap water supplier's report. More about that later.
3 Get a bottle of Dr Tim's Ammonium Chloride Solution. Here is one possible supplier:
https://www.swelluk.com/dr-tims-ammonium-chloride-solution/
3 Get a bottle of Tetra SafeStart.
4 You will also need a tap water conditioner, which has been discussed a great deal here on TF. Take a look at very recent threads dealing with this.
The items above are things to be thinking about. More to follow when I have a bit more time.
JPC
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Hi thanks for the advice. Not pets at home this time. It was a chain however. Lots of them at garden centres around this part of Wales. I've got everything on the list apart from Dr Tims. Ok look forward to the next part. Happy to get all the knowledge I can get before deciding which method.
As I was leaving the shop I was told by the staff member to ignore advice on forums. Basically said just get the fish and see how it goes. Left shop thinking "yeah but I want to do all I can to make sure I don't kill it!"
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As you may have gathered, the piece of advice we usually give is to ignore everything a shop says :)
For the record, I wish to be excluded from the 'we' above. There are some excellent high-street* suppliers out there. But, there are some that are dreadful. @Betta2020 was obviously unfortunate to visit one of those that fall into the latter category.
Perhaps it would be helpful for all newcomers if we at TF were to compile a list of suppliers that we would recommend and those that we would advise avoiding? What do we think?
JPC
* When referring to 'high-street' suppliers, I include those in Garden Centres.
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Welcome @Betta2020 :wave:
As a current newbie returning to the hobby I can only praise this forum for its content and members that are so knowledgeable and helpful.
In regards to the ammonia I would just follow a method that you are currently looking to explore i.e Dr Tims that way it doesn’t confuse you. I would also invest (if you haven’t already) and get yourself a test kit. There are complete ones on the market such as API Freshwater Master Test Kit.
This will enable you to test your water at every stage during the cycling process and ensure that when it’s showing 0 for Ammonia etc you’ll know when it’s ok to add the fish. As already mentioned you have live plants which will help.
Once again welcome and I look forward to see pictures and hear your process progress!
Simon
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Thanks for the advice. Yeah looks like a great place to get help. Hopefully 1 day I can be the 1 helping. Will try and attach pic of tank so far.
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Hi @Betta2020 and welcome to the forum :wave:
Your tank looks great, I'm sure that your future betta will love it. :)
There is a lot of information available from the internet, shop staff, other fishkeepers, and quite a lot of it is contradictory, or quite different at least. There seems to be no one way to do anything, and as knowledge & technology move on the advice that is given also changes. There will be people that have always done things one way and everything has been fine, others another way, and so on. There are people who have successfully kept fish together that are considered incompatible, and people who have had issues with fish that are considered acceptable tank mates. Unfortunately sometimes it's a case of taking the middle road and trying to do your best - the exact same approach as you mention with wanting to do all that you can to make sure that you don't kill your fish.
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Thanks for the advice. Yeah looks like a great place to get help. Hopefully 1 day I can be the 1 helping. Will try and attach pic of tank so far.
Looking good! ;D your Betta will love it!!
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I've got everything on the list apart from Dr Tims.
Hi @Betta2020
So, you have a 'Master' Test Kit? Which one do you have? I also note that you are using aquarium soil. Which one? Tropica, by any chance? If so, you may not need to buy any additional ammonia. Tropica soil would appear to leach ammonia into the water column. I have not used it myself but take a look at this:
https://forums.thinkfish.co.uk/general-fishkeeping-chat/new-beginnings/msg47427/?topicseen#msg47427
JPC
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Thank you for the welcome everyone..... I have a the API master test kit. Yes the soil is tropica. Didn't know about it possibly leeching ammonia. Did a test yesterday just out of curiosity nothing showed up. I will take a look at that link now. Thanks.
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A belated welcome :wave:
Good to see you have adopted a responsible fishkeeping approach, putting the life of the forthcoming fish first, rather than a blase approach of "hope for the best". Your forthcoming fish is going to have a lovely new abode – your tank looks great!
It’s disappointing that some/many LFSs don’t acknowledge the fishless cycling approach as a “tried and tested”, fool-proof method. While it is in their interests to sell products, it would be better all round if they acknowledged its merits and encouraged those who adopt that approach. There will still be many customers who don’t have the patience to see it through and, in those cases, a bottled bacteria product is a better approach than a fish-in cycle with no such product. As I understand it, though, the evidence of effectiveness of these products is still quite varied – some folks have a successful cycle, others don’t; it depends on various aspects such as storage from manufacture to use, ingredients of the specific product, etc.
Your water supplier’s website will be a great place to get details of your specific postcode’s water hardness/softness – in CaCO3 mg/l or German degrees hardness and PH. However, Fishtales mentions some discrepancies between hers and her test results. Worth looking at both, though.
As for ammonia, you may already have got the Dr Tim’s. Another popular option for fishless cycles is Kleen-Off.
As for discussions about different LFSs, chains or otherwise, this is something we've discussed on here fairly recently. Many of the chains are franchises, and, even within that and even within stores, there is huge variation - often it comes down to the level of interest of a particular staff member. As it happens, I was very impressed by a local PAH during a visit back in Sept and their various processes for the welfare of their fish across the chain - for unrelated reasons, I hadn't been in one for 5 years but was aware back then of the variation from store to store, and this probably still applies, although they have streamlined their welfare processes re checks and monitoring of the fish and associated record-keeping, etc. As for independent LFSs, there aren't that many around these days, it seems.
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Thanks. Ok I will check out the Welsh water website to see what I can find. No I haven't got the Dr Tims yet.
I read the thread in the link about tropica and ammonia. Noticed it said on there about driftwood leeching ammonia too. I have the white fungus growing on it as mentioned. What I wasn't sure was if the possible leeching from the tropica or soil was a good think for me at the moment?
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I read the thread in the link about tropica and ammonia. Noticed it said on there about driftwood leeching ammonia too. I have the white fungus growing on it as mentioned. What I wasn't sure was if the possible leeching from the tropica or soil was a good think for me at the moment?
Hi @Betta2020
Have you measured ammonia in your tank? If so, what was the result?
JPC
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Ive checked again today @jaypeecee. Showing 0 ammonia still
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@jaypeecee forgive me. I've just retested as I've realised I've been doing the test for ammonia wrong. Ammonia is present. It's reading 0.25ppm
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If the tank is well planted, you don't need to add ammonia. Just wait till you are sure the plants are growing and not about to die, then get a betta. The reason is that plants use ammonia as fertiliser and they don't turn it into nitrite. With just one betta in 34 litres, plants should take care of all the ammonia he makes. But better to be safe than sorry so monitor both ammonia and nitrite for several days after he arrives.
Hi @Betta2020
I am in full agreement with what Sue has said - now that I've seen a photo of your tank. As such, a different approach from conventional cycling is probably the way to go. Conventional cycling is all about building a bacterial colony inside the filter. This is where the Tetra SafeStart comes in. But, there are plenty of people who make good use of plants to absorb the highly toxic ammonia. It is similar to what happens in fishes' natural habitat.
So, the emphasis in your tank will be to ensure that you have healthy plants at all times. Correct lighting and fertilization will be your priorities.
But, it would help us and yourself if we can get measurements for those all-important parameters (ammonia, etc.) that are in your Master Test Kit.
JPC
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@jaypeecee forgive me. I've just retested as I've realised I've been doing the test for ammonia wrong. Ammonia is present. It's reading 0.25ppm
Hi @Betta2020
OK, thanks for that. That level of ammonia is toxic to fish. What we need to do now is to repeat the test - at least daily. We need to determine if it's increasing or decreasing or not changing. Please also measure nitrite just to be on the safe side.
Turning to your lighting, how long is the lighting on for? Initially, six hours every day gets a lot of recommendations. You will get a lot of nutrients (fertilizers) from the Tropica Aqua Soil. But, the plants may also need a source of carbon. Are you currently adding anything to the water column for the plants?
JPC
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Is it worth checking the ammonia reading from the tap water as well? As if there is a 0.25 reading from that it could be the reading is actually picking up the ammonium from the tap water?
Good call, @fishtales - and which reminds me, I ought to have advised checking up whether your water supplier puts chloramine in the water, @Betta2020; you may have to ask them directly (eg by e-mailing them your postcode and enquiring specifically). If so, then, thanks to / with help from @jaypeecee, I've been doing some investigatory work about suitable dechlorinators to use - suffice to say that the ones that refer to addressing chloramine are not sufficient, at least not in their own right. I'll summarise the situation in due course.
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Just checked the tap water @fishtales ammonia reading was 0.
Had a look on the Welsh water site couldn't see info on chloromine. But will email them @fcmf
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Looks from the fishtank/ponds leaflet obtainable from here https://www.dwrcymru.com/en/My-Water/Frequently-Asked-Questions.aspx that some areas have chloramination, so definitely worth checking up with them directly. :D
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Another point regarding advice from fish stores - get to know the staff at your LFS, and find out what they specialise in and/or keep at home.
You may find that some staff are only there on certain days, and that you may have to make the effort to visit on a specific day to talk to the assistant you trust and/or whose knowledge covers the areas that you are interested in.
There may also be some more experienced members of staff, but also some younger/newer totally fish obsessed aquatic nerds that have successfully been keeping fish since they were almost toddlers. Although they will all be trained in the requirements of the store (chain, franchise, or independent) some may go that extra mile to help.
I will say that it seems quite rare to find someone working at a fish store just because they want a part time job, it seems to attract people who are more involved than that.
By the way, just being nosey, what part of Wales? I'm originally from Cardiff, and still go back a lot to visit family & friends. If you are ever in that area (or if anyone else reading is visiting Cardiff) I would suggest visiting the Cardiff MA in Morganstown, if only to gaze in wonder at their display tank, and will also recommend Aquatic World in Cathays as one of those independent shops that stocks an impressive range of species & equipment, and are also very helpful. 8)
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Just checked the tap water @fishtales ammonia reading was 0.
Had a look on the Welsh water site couldn't see info on chloromine. But will email them @fcmf
Hi @Betta2020 & Everyone
So, there you have it, folks. If you want to keep fish and use tap water, then head for Cymru!
The chemical name is chloramine. But, I just searched for it on the Welsh Water web site and I also got a negative result. Then, I searched for chlorine and got this:
"We are looking to:
Implement chemical free treatment where appropriate
Reduce the levels of chlorine in our water and use alternative disinfectants
Use novel pipe refurbishment techniques
Understand the scope of in pipe robotics and how these can be used to repair and cleanse mains
Develop self-cleansing networks"
From the second item in the list, it may be that Welsh Water currently uses chlorine only. But, the mention of "alternative disinfectants" may well include chloramine. Only by contacting them will you, @Betta2020, get a definitive answer. If you use email, then you will have their response in writing.
Please keep us posted.
JPC
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Another point regarding advice from fish stores - get to know the staff at your LFS...
...particularly the Store Manager. ;)
JPC
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A gentle reminder ;) to look at the leaflet I signposted to in my earlier post, from Welsh Water, before all fishkeepers descend on the hills and valleys of Wales. I've tried to copy and paste the relevant paragraph in here but it's not working. Suffice to say that they state that in some areas, they do use chloramine.
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I will get a email off and keep everyone updated @jaypeecee
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Should have said I'm using Interpet bioactive tapsafe plus to condition the water. Is this sufficient to treat water if chloromine is present?
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@Littlefish I'm in Caerphilly so I'm just a few miles from the Morganstown MA. Been a few times the big tanks are great. We've a MA at caerphilly garden centre also. Did pop in into the St Mellons MA last week believe there is another in the vale of Glamorgan also. Would like to check out a few independents now so Aquatic World is on the list. There is another 1 north of me in Blackwood that I see won an award off practical fish keeping magazine last year. So will get up there soon.
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You've got access to a lot of good stores. :cheers:
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A gentle reminder ;) to look at the leaflet I signposted to in my earlier post, from Welsh Water, before all fishkeepers descend on the hills and valleys of Wales. I've tried to copy and paste the relevant paragraph in here but it's not working. Suffice to say that they state that in some areas, they do use chloramine.
Hi @fcmf
Just taken a look at that leaflet. Quite informative and very relevant to what we are discussing here.
JPC
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Just tested the water again. Ammonia up to 1.00ppm. Nitrite up to 0.25pm. Combination of the soil and white fungus on driftwood I guess.?
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Should have said I'm using Interpet bioactive tapsafe plus to condition the water. Is this sufficient to treat water if chloromine is present?
Hi @Betta2020
I cannot answer your question above but the Interpet product may not be the best choice if you'll be adding a Betta to your tank. This is because this water conditioner contains Aloe vera (according to their web site). @Sue can probably help you here as she keeps a Betta but I think she uses API Tap Water Conditioner.
JPC
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Ok @jaypeecee thanks for the info. Will read about the aloe Vera issue now
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Just tested the water again. Ammonia up to 1.00ppm. Nitrite up to 0.25pm. Combination of the soil and white fungus on driftwood I guess.?
Hi @Betta2020
The ammonia is almost certainly coming from the aquarium soil as I've suggested previously. But, it's interesting that you now have nitrite as well. That may be the result of the Interpet Bioactive Tapsafe Plus which, according to the Interpet web site, "Adds beneficial bacteria to help maintain a healthy balance in your aquarium". It is unusual for a tap water conditioner to include nitrifying bacteria. This is what Tetra SafeStart contains. So, we have a complication here but not one that we cannot handle...
What this means is that both the plants and the bacteria will use the ammonia. When I'm cycling a tank, I prefer not to have plants in the tank. But, if I remember rightly, @Sue often/always has plants in the tank. I prefer to get the biological (bacteria) filter established before adding plants. That way, only the bacteria gobble up the ammonia in the water and multiply more rapidly. They don't have to fight with the plants for food.
JPC
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@jaypeecee I seem to have 5.0ppm nitrate reading also.
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Hi @Betta2020
For how long has your tank been running since adding plants?
JPC
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@jaypeecee set the tank up last Tuesday. Planted on same day.
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A gentle reminder ;) to look at the leaflet I signposted to in my earlier post, from Welsh Water, before all fishkeepers descend on the hills and valleys of Wales. I've tried to copy and paste the relevant paragraph in here but it's not working. Suffice to say that they state that in some areas, they do use chloramine.
Hi @fcmf
Just taken a look at that leaflet. Quite informative and very relevant to what we are discussing here.
JPC
Absolutely!
Should have said I'm using Interpet bioactive tapsafe plus to condition the water. Is this sufficient to treat water if chloromine is present?
Hi @Betta2020
I cannot answer your question above but the Interpet product may not be the best choice if you'll be adding a Betta to your tank. This is because this water conditioner contains Aloe vera (according to their web site). @Sue can probably help you here as she keeps a Betta but I think she uses API Tap Water Conditioner.
JPC
Having been looking into this issue lately, I would say it's not sufficient if you do have chlorAmine. Seachem Prime OR API Tap Water Conditioner in conjunction with API Ammo-Lock would be your options, the latter combination likely being the better option if you have a betta as we're not entirely sure of the ingredient in the slime coat protector of Seachem Prime (the product safety sheet states that the ingredients are "trade secrets").
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@jaypeecee set the tank up last Tuesday. Planted on same day.
Hi @Betta2020
So, in less than a week, you already have nitrate. It would normally take a good deal longer than that to 'see' nitrate if it was being produced by the biological filter. Unless your bacteria are on steroids! I suspect it is leaching from the substrate or the wood. Let's just continue to take measurements of ammonia, nitrite and nitrate on a daily basis. You'll need to do this until such time as ammonia and nitrite both read 0ppm. Then, we can decide what to do next.
JPC
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Thanks for the info @fishtales and @fcmf, planning on reading up both suggestions later this evening.
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Hi @jaypeecee I'm planning on testing every day. I tested last night and while ammonia and nitrate were the same, nitrite was zero. Is this even possible? Maybe I should have retested to make sure? After the test I had to move the tank and cabinet to a different location. So just under 50percent of the water was changed to make this easier. This will have an effect on today's test I guess?
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Hi @jaypeecee I'm planning on testing every day. I tested last night and while ammonia and nitrate were the same, nitrite was zero. Is this even possible? Maybe I should have retested to make sure? After the test I had to move the tank and cabinet to a different location. So just under 50percent of the water was changed to make this easier. This will have an effect on today's test I guess?
Hi @Betta2020
Firstly, what were your ammonia and nitrate readings last night? Nitrite at zero? Odd, yes. But, this is why I prefer to start with no plants in the tank. I like to keep things simple. Instead of just one process going on in your tank, we have two and an unpredictable source of ammonia - the substrate. Let's see what today's results bring.
JPC
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Ammonia 1.0pm nitrate 5.0pm @jaypeecee
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Hi @jaypeecee the last 2 days results for water parameters have been 1.00ppm ammonia, for nitrite 0ppm and I'm still picking up nitrate at 5ppm.
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Hi @Betta2020
My brain is trying to tell me that it needs a rest. I can't think straight. But, for the purpose of trying to help you, here goes...
We appear to have reached stalemate or whatever word you choose. You could wait a couple more days and just take measurements as you've been doing. At the same time, you might want to think about getting hold of a small bottle of Tetra SafeStart. Let us know if you get some. Then, we could use the appropriate dose for your tank volume. Please keep us updated. One way or the other, we'll crack this puzzle.
JPC
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Haha thank you for your patience @jaypeecee. I have a bottle of api quick start would this do?
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Haha thank you for your patience @jaypeecee. I have a bottle of api quick start would this do?
Hi @Betta2020
I have no experience of using API Quick Start. But the product that I suggested is a proven winner with me and other fishkeepers. You can probably get a bottle very quickly from Amazon. Having the correct species of bacteria is key to successful cycling. I'm not saying that the API Quick Start wouldn't work but it's just another unknown.
It's your call.
JPC
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Hi @Betta2020
What's the latest?
JPC
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Hi @jaypeecee I decided to go with the api quick start on Wednesday as I had it here. Tested yesterday no change in parameters. Tested today ammonia 1.0ppm, now have nitrite at 0.50pm, nitrate 5.0ppm
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If you can get some Tetra Safe Start, that is more likely to work. API Quick Start has the reputation of speeding up the ammonia stage but not the nitrite stage.
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I decided to go with the api quick start on Wednesday as I had it here. Tested yesterday no change in parameters. Tested today ammonia 1.0ppm, now have nitrite at 0.50pm, nitrate 5.0ppm
Hi @Betta2020
I'm really pleased for you. You must be delighted. So, now, it looks like a biological culture has started to develop on the Bio Rings. By keeping the lid closed on your setup will help this culture to develop as light is known to slow down (even stop) the growth of nitrifying bacteria.
With your API Master Test Kit, you can keep an eye on KH and pH. The nitrifying bacteria colony will develop fastest when pH is greater than 7, ideally around 8.5. I always ensure that KH is greater than 4dKH. And don't forget to keep an eye on your tank thermometer, which should be 25 - 30C at this stage.
BTW, don't go looking for signs of bacterial growth - these little critters are approximately one thousandth of a millimetre long!!
Please keep us updated.
JPC
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Hi @Betta2020
You will note that @Sue has just mentioned Tetra SafeStart. That's why it was my first suggestion. Indeed, it's not just that the nitrite to nitrate stage may slow down, it could stop right there leaving toxic ammonia in the water. Not good. It will depend if API has moved with recent developments and improved the formulation of Quick Start.
JPC
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Ok I'm going to a garden centre on my day off on Monday, there's a MA there so will try to pick up a bottle of tetra. Measured parameters this morning as out for rest of day. Having trouble deciding if ammonia is at 1.00pm or 2.00ppm. Nitrite is up to 1.00ppm also nitrate up to 10ppm.
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Ok I'm going to a garden centre on my day off on Monday, there's a MA there so will try to pick up a bottle of tetra.
Hi @Betta2020
I think you'll find that MA does not stock Tetra SafeStart. There are lots of places online (including Amazon) where you can get it. MA only deal with certain companies - I think you'll find that Tetra isn't one of them!
JPC
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Pets at Home have Safe Start on their website though that doesn't mean that every branch has it in stock.
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I think MA might do some Tetra products, I bought some Tetra brand fish food at an MA not long ago.
Might be worth phoning your local store to check.
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My MA has always stocked Tetra fish food (and other brands). However, when it comes to these types of "beneficial bacteria cycling" products, they tend to stock the Microbe products intead which they claim are exactly the same as Seachem Prime - although not sure they can make this claim when Seachem Prime's ingredients are a trade secret. From what I can gather, Tetra Safestart is a staple product in PAH stores.
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Hi @Betta2020
In hindsight, it is possible that some MA stores may stock Tetra SafeStart. As the stores are independent of each other, what one store stocks may not be the same as another. I see that SafeStart is listed on MA's web site:
https://www.fishkeeper.co.uk/catalogsearch/result/?q=tetra
JPC