Tropical Fish Forum
Tropical Fish Keeping Help and Advice => New Fishkeepers => Topic started by: Marcus_F on October 17, 2019, 12:53:47 PM
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I've been looking at so many combinations of fish for my hard water tank, but I'm really conscious of Algae growth so have been thinking shrimps. Never had them before and sound interesting to own but most fish I add to the community creator are likely to see my shrimp and think mmmm lunch.
Am I being over paranoid about algae and really shrimps are not required? I really like the idea of having a natural cleaner.
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There many types of algae, and most fish or shrimps will only eat one or two types. And there are some algae species that nothing will eat. All tanks will have some algae, it is normal. It's when it gets out of control that it becomes a problem. The best way to deal with algae is by stopping it taking over.
Algae gets out of control when three things are out of balance - light, plant fertiliser and CO2. Light means both the duration the lights are on, and the spectrum. For example, lights with a lot of blue will encourage algae to grow.
How long are the lights on for, and do the tubes give a Kelvin rating?
Are there any live plants in the tank? If there are, do you use fertiliser - what brand and how much - and do you use CO2, either gas or one of the so-called liquid carbons?
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Having said all that, look at nerite snails :) They don't eat all types of algae, but they do eat some.
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Hi Marcus,
It's no bad thing to be wary of algae growth. Better to be prepared. I'd like to add one more item to Sue's list and that is organic waste that develops on the substrate - gravel, sand, etc. This organic waste (detritus) can be faeces from the fish and uneaten food, for example. Not only can algae grow directly on it but, as it breaks down naturally, it dissolves in the tank water. Not good. Use a syphon or gravel cleaner to keep this waste to a minimum. When doing so, try to just clean only the surface of the gravel/substrate. Try not to churn up the substrate.
JPC
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I agree. All that detritus breaks down to make CO2, and other plant nutrients, so even if these are not added from an outside source they can still build up.
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Thanks all,
The tank is new so light at the moment is on for just 6hrs a day and it's the Fluval AquaSky LED 16w with 42 LED's and has a rating of 1,100 Lumens. Not sure on the Kelvin rating, it's just on the app's sunrise, daytime, sunset, night time program.
I do need to do a little research to work out if I need to adjust the red/white/blue LED's to assist the live plants. I'm trying to go for a fairly fully planted tank but it's all early stages.
I've not used any fertiliser yet, I'm waiting to see how the Caribsea Eco-Complete substrate works out. No CO2 yet, was going to try and avoid that.
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Hi Marcus,
One of the most important things to keep in mind is that the intensity and duration of the lighting dictates the nutrient requirement for the plants. So, that means carbon from either carbon dioxide or liquid carbon products. Then, the macronutrients - nitrogen, phosphorus and potassium. Then the micronutrients - iron, magnesium, etc.
To keep things simple, start with the easy plants. Take a look at the Tropica and AquaFleur web sites which, if I remember rightly, put plants into several categories. Going back to nutrients, I see that Eco-Complete Planted has a detailed list of the nutrients that it contains.
What I am beginning to appreciate about planted tanks is that if you look after the plants and they are growing well, they will starve any algae spores thus preventing algae growth. Perhaps there is one exception and that is something called blue-green algae (BGA), which is not an algae at all despite its name. It is a form of bacteria. That can wait for another day.
That's enough science for the moment. Regarding fertilizers, I have recently started using TNC products. You will find them here:
https://thenutrientcompany.com
JPC
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What sort of combinations of fish are you looking at?
I have amano shrimp in several of my tanks, along with some of the smaller species (red cherry/blue dream/bee shrimp) in 2 other tanks.
If you have some relatively big omnivores/carnivorous fish, or slightly aggressive fish, certainly steer clear of introducing shrimp, especially the smaller ones. I wouldn't put anything else at all in my tiger barb tank, for example.
On the other hand, my female amanos are big girls, and it would take quite a large mouth to make a meal of them. They are awesome characters, and regularly run over to an algae wafer and steal it from the fish already feeding on it, climb up a plant and spend the rest of the evening working their way through something I thought would be too big for them to carry. The smaller males aren't quite so cheeky.
I don't tend to have them as a clean up crew, to deal with algae. I think my first purchases of amanos was for that reason, but since then I have found them so fascinating, and such a great addition to a tank that I can't imagine having a community tank without them. :)
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Thanks for the replies, I'll try answer the questions posed.
The plants in the tank are all Tropica and all under the Easy section. Early days but most look to be getting bigger. I guess in a two week tank that's a small positive.
I've had experience with blue green algae in the small tank. Still got trace amount and being very cautious in transferring the fish to the new tank from it. It's also the reason I've not used the media in that tank to help cycle the new one, could be over cautious but don't want any cross contamination with it being bacteria.
So liquid fertilisers, really needed in addition to decent substrate and do they affect the water conditions in any way?
The fish on my list has moved around so much but fairly confident in saying we will have Dwarf Rainbowfish, Rosy Tetra, Cherry Barb, Bloodfin tetra and penguin tetra. Most seem ok with shrimp but for some colour we were hoping for Dwarf Gourami and they come up as potential to attach Shrimp.
I guess I could add them last once the shrimp have gotten bigger (assume they grow)? They will then be too big to eat :)
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Avoid dwarf gourami. Most of the ones imported from the Far East are infected with an incurable disease and they commonly die shortly after purchase. If you can find some bred by a local breeder, that's a different matter but I wouldn't risk any bought form a shop.
Another point to consider is that some of the fish on your list (rainbowfish, bloodfin tetra) are active fish which would stress a sedate fish like gouramis.
And bloodfin and penguin tetras would nip the fins of fish like gouramis unless they are in a group of at least 10 each. That may be more than you want of each species.
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Thanks Sue, I was after some colour and the Dwarf Gourami was suggested to us by our local maindenhead aquatic centre. Many of the fish we have on our list have a base colour of silver.
Just need a space of something but avoiding live bearers really as I don't want a tank full. Shame as they seem to have the colour.
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You should find most of the livebearer on sale are males only, the colourful fish of these species are the males. They are very easy to sex and commonly juat males are sold to avoid the problems of them taking over the tank as you have described. There are 2 (useful) types of liquid fertilisers. One is the micros only type, the other the macros and micros (or complete) fertilisers.
Complete fertilisers contain nitrates so they will increase nitrates in the tank, it is certainly possible to just use a micro only fertiliser. I'd recommend JBL Ferropol, available commonly from Maidenhead Aquatics, which seems to be your local :). I would definately advise using these as your soils will quickly become devoid of nutrients if not. Also many aquatic plants prefer to take their nutrients from the water rather than the soil. Only those with very extensive root systems covering a large amount of the tank area will be heavy root feeders. For more detail on the topic of fertilisation, see: http://scapeeasy.co.uk/fertilisation.htm (http://scapeeasy.co.uk/fertilisation.htm)
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Thanks all,
The tank is new so light at the moment is on for just 6hrs a day and it's the Fluval AquaSky LED 16w with 42 LED's and has a rating of 1,100 Lumens. Not sure on the Kelvin rating, it's just on the app's sunrise, daytime, sunset, night time program.
I do need to do a little research to work out if I need to adjust the red/white/blue LED's to assist the live plants. I'm trying to go for a fairly fully planted tank but it's all early stages.
I've not used any fertiliser yet, I'm waiting to see how the Caribsea Eco-Complete substrate works out. No CO2 yet, was going to try and avoid that.
Hi Marcus,
Plant lighting can get complex so I'll keep things simple. 1100 Lumens is bright lighting - as perceived by the human eye. FYI, the light that I have over my community tank is 1032 Lumens (at maximum brightness). So I know what that looks like. You will need to remind me of your tank dimensions. I think you're wise to stick to 6 hours a day lighting ON (known as the photoperiod). I know very little about the Fluval AquaSky. I don't think they publish the actual light spectrum for this product. Ideally, we need to know the actual wavelengths of the red and blue LEDs. Also, is it dimmable? Almost certainly, the light will be too bright on maximum setting.
Your plants need a source of carbon and, I agree, you are wise to steer away from CO2 at the moment. Arguably, carbon is the most important nutrient. So, you have a choice of liquid carbon products. There are plenty to choose from. @Matt uses liquid carbon, if I remember rightly so you could ask him.
JPC
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The opposite actually! Liquid carbon is a very dangerous and harmful chemical which should be avoided where possible. I do admittedly use it in once per week at water change time just at the normal recommended level. This is a time of significant change in the aquarium and liquid carbon is useful here to prevent algae getting a hold.
Liquid carbon does not provide and my true carbon dioxide to the plants, it stunts their growth and is minimum 15 times less effective than pressurised co2... why bother... some more info here:
https://www.jbl.de/?lang=en&mod=blog&func=detail&id=123 (https://www.jbl.de/?lang=en&mod=blog&func=detail&id=123)
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The tank dimensions are 55cm x 55cm cube with a height of 65cm
I will admit the plant and nutrients is baffling and so far I've planted and hoped. There is way too much contradictory information which makes the internet and painful and often useless source of info.
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Liquid carbon is a very dangerous and harmful chemical which should be avoided where possible.
Hi Matt,
If liquid carbon is used in accordance with the manufacturer's instructions, I don't believe that you need to have any concerns. In its undiluted form, glutaraldehyde has to be used with great care. My wife used it for sterilizing hospital equipment when she was a nurse. But she compares it with household bleach, which is dangerous if used improperly. As for the JBL link, I treat that with a degree of caution. JBL don't want to lose customers who use their CO2 equipment - people like me.
If you are not a liquid carbon user, are you a CO2 user?
JPC
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The tank dimensions are 55cm x 55cm cube with a height of 65cm
I will admit the plant and nutrients is baffling and so far I've planted and hoped. There is way too much contradictory information which makes the internet and painful and often useless source of info.
Hi Marcus,
Based on your tank dimensions, you have a brightly lit tank. I asked about your lighting - specifically, is it dimmable? And you will need a supply of carbon - whichever route you choose to follow.
You are entirely correct about the internet. There is no end of contradictory information. So, you have to decide who you can trust. Only you can make that decision.
JPC
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Yep fully dimmable LED light controlled by my iPhone.
At the moment I’ve added substrate, water, Tropica plants and fish. I’m two weeks in and see 3 plants doing wonders. Another one near the heater is browning on the heater side but it’s a biggish plant. One which is split around the tank doesn’t appear to be doing that well.
Java moss is as it was two weeks ago I think when it was added to the wood.
No CO2, no fertiliser just fish food at the moment.
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Oh dear, I'm about to be contradictory. I don't use co2 but rely on naturally available co2 dissolves in the water. I have had great success using this method as described on my site www.scapeeasy.co.uk (http://www.scapeeasy.co.uk)
The link I posted on gluteraldehyde was sent to me by Juris the famous German aquascaper who felt it summed up his experiences with the product well. I have also lost a lot of fish whilst using liquid co2 at less than the recommended dose daily. When I stopped the losses stopped. I repeated this not quite believing it. The same happened again.
As such im afraid i have to disagree that a source of supplemental carbon is needed ... it will be the limiting factor to plant growth if non is added. This is not a problem, we just need to balance this out with low lighting and reduced fertilisation. This leads to a slow growing low maintnenace aquarium (but NOT to poor plant health as many would have you believe).
The best thing to do given the wealth of contradictory information in the internet is to follow the approach from one person and only that approach as you can be sure that the differnet component factors are balanced effectively in this approach, its when we mix approaches that we encounter problems.
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Marcus, your plants will need to adapt from emergent growth (above water, as they are grown this way in the nursery) to submerged growth. Look out for fresh new growth in a couolw of weeks and don't worry if the rest of the plant dies off in the meantime, just remove any decaying material. If you have no fresh growth after 2 weeks this is when you might want to worry about the future of the plant.
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As such im afraid i have to disagree that a source of supplemental carbon is needed ... it will be the limiting factor to plant growth if non is added. This is not a problem, we just need to balance this out with low lighting and reduced fertilisation. This leads to a slow growing low maintnenace aquarium (but NOT to poor plant health as many would have you believe).
Hi Matt,
The point that I was making to Marcus was that he will need to add carbon and other ferts if he has bright lighting. As I said previously, it is lighting that dictates the need for nutrients. So, you and I are in agreement. There are people who prefer to have a very low maintenance tank just like yourself. Indeed, I can think of one person who has really mastered this approach. He is a regular contributor on the UKAPS forum and a person that I greatly respect.
JPC
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Agreed! :cheers: Sorry I didn't mean to come across as standoffish here (there's a pun in there somewhere...). I wonder Marcus, have we confused you? I'll try and summarise...
The point we are both making is: Light, nutrients, and co2 are the three factors dictating plant growth and they need to be in balanced with each other. If there is an excess of one of these such as light as there may be in your case, this will inevitably leads to algae or other problems.
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Thanks Matt, I'm still with you just :)
I've been looking at the light source and app. I have sliders for the spectrum so I think to dim I can just reduce white, red and blue. Guessing now but sliding all down the same amount should keep lighting equal but just less of it.
Nutrients I'll look at fertiliser, Tropica website says I don't need this for I think it said 2 to 4 weeks on their plants.
CO2, this is the confusing one for me. I've been careful with my plan selection in that they are all Easy grow Low CO2 requirements. I had no intention of adding pressurised CO2 and so much negativity around surround liquid CO2 I had thought to just add zero and see what happens.
Do think we will grab some shrimp at the weekend, Tropica site say 1 per 5L of water but 34 shrimp seems excessive hahaha
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You don't need to buy 34 shrimps unless you go for amanos. As long as you get at least one male and one female, they will breed :) If you get half a dozen you should have some of each. If you get them from a real shop, try to get a berried female. This is a female which is carrying eggs under her abdomen, which are said to look like a bunch of berries. It is easy to spot a berried female. This way, even if you end up buying all females, some of the eggs should hatch into males.
Amanos can't breed in fresh water; at least, they do breed but the larvae which hatch from the eggs need salt water to survive.
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You've a solid plan on co2 and ferts. I would reduce the light quite significantly initially (40% of max for example) and ramp up from there if you find a need later on. I would reduce the blue quite a bit, I have mine on zero. Blue light is said to encourage algae. Not sure how much truth there is in it, and it's probably not worth debating here as regardless the plant and shrimp colours will pop more with just white and red.
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Higher plants need both red and blue light to grow well. Algae grows fine in just blue. With too much blue compared to red, algae grows well but higher plants struggle.
On my betta's tank I had a clip on LED light that was either white and blue or just blue - I used only the blue and white setting. The plants failed to grow so i had to put fake plants in, which were soon covered in algae. A couple of months or so ago, I changed the light for one with blue, white and red LEDS. The spectrum of this light shows a peak in both red and blue with a broad hump between. The plants have been growing well while the algae is slowly going.
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Thanks,
Set my lighting now to
Red 75%
Blue 65%
Green 75%
White 75%
For 6hrs and slow dawn and dusk for an hour each side.
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https://www.flickr.com/photos/89465085@N02/shares/9e8e71 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/89465085@N02/shares/9e8e71)
Seeing some growth after two weeks
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8)
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That is impressive - well done! :cheers:
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Your tank looks great. ;D
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Thanks but bit annoyed today. 5 shrimp purchased, 24hours on 1 dead at bottom of the tank, no sign of the other 4.
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It's not unheard of for shrimp to struggle acclimating to a new tank. Hope you managed to see some of the others tomorrow.
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Shrimps are experts at hiding, the 4 may well be alive.
The one that died probably couldn't cope with being moved from one tank to another. But I do need to check - it was a dead shrimp not a shrimp exoskeleton?
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It was a full shrimp all pink/red originally clear when alive. Found one walking about. Found a 2nd dead one. Hopefully two others are hiding
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Check your tank parameters and do a water change even if it is only for peace of mind...
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Will do a water change shortly. I find it tricky to judge the test tube colour against the plastic card but I think the below is correct.
Nitrite 0ppm
Nitrate 10ppm but could be 5 or 15 :/
Ammonia 0.25ppm
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Think I’ve found what looks like the shell of a shrimp only. Clear and sitting on the moss.
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That may not necessarily be a 3rd body - shrimp moult and shed their exoskeletons - but I've never kept them, so other shrimp-keepers may be able to advise accordingly. Hope at least some of them survive - fingers crossed for you.
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Potentially a shred but I wasn’t expecting it in less than 24hrs.
I’ve now seen two at the same time so bit of luck there. I’ve removed two bodies. Maybe 2 left as we got. Tiny tiny one in the bag when we paid for 5 and got 6.
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I've only seen two shrimps at the same time, I've removed two bodies so potentially one is the worlds best at hide and seek :)
Also is there a chart or table to show what levels for the water test are good and bad? My test kit tells me my readings but doesnt then tell you at what point a reading is bad.
Ammonia should be very low, almost 0 all the time right?
Nitrite is 0 still, which when combines with 0 ammonia suggests all is well with the filter and plants.
Nitrate is 15ppm, is that high or can it increase more?
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Found a table online :)
<50ppm for Nitrate so it sounds like my tank is coming along nicely. Will add 4 more fish this weekend from the small tank.
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That table you found is out of date, I'm afraid. It is now known that nitrate should be kept under 20 ppm, though this makes things tricky for those who have tap water nitrate over 20.
Yes, ammonia and nitrite should be zero. There will actually be a tiny amount, but so low that our test kits can't measure them.
Testers often give 'ideal' levels for pH, and hardness, but there is no ideal since different fish need different levels.
As for the shrimps, if you do discover they've all died, see if you can find a shop which will let you choose which shrimp you want, then get a female which is carrying eggs.
My experience with cherry shrimp is that all the ones I bought died, but the baby shrimps that hatched from the one egg carrying (called berried) female survived.
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Hi Marcus,
You may want to consider the possibility of copper toxicity to shrimps. I test for copper in my tanks that house shrimps. Here's a bit of background reading for you:
http://aquariumbreeder.com/how-copper-affects-dwarf-shrimp/
JPC