Tropical Fish Forum
Tropical Fish Keeping Help and Advice => New Fishkeepers => Topic started by: fruitbat on September 25, 2014, 06:29:58 PM
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hi, i have had lots of problems lately with dying fish etc , i have lost 3/4 of my stock,. but last 3 weeks my remaining fish have battled on. now i have a very high ammonia reading and have done 2 x 30 % water changes, stopped feeding them and still the ammonia levels are very high though my fish don't seem to be bothered by it.. i clean gravel weekly and test weekly with 10% water change.. any one any ideas.. thanks 60l tank with 3 zebra danios and 3 cardinals and a rummy nose tetra.. ph is 6.2 ,nitrate 5ish and nitrite 0 ..
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Hi fruitbat,
What is your ammonia reading? How long has your tank been running?
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The good news is that with your pH you can have a high ammonia level without harming the fish. Ammonia exists in two forms in our tanks, toxic ammonia and less toxic ammonium. The amount in each form depends on both temperature and pH. The lower the pH, the more that is in the less toxic form. Our test kits can't distinguish between the two. The reading is for both added together. With your pH, assuming the temp is around 25 deg C, your ammonia proportion is well below the danger mark even with a test reading of 4ppm.
However, it is still good practice to lower it. It will have to go somewhere, and that is usually into nitrite - and nitrite is more toxic at low pH so you do need to keep an eye on that.
It sounds as though something has happened to your ammonia eating bacteria, and possibly your nitrite eaters too though you won't be able to tell until the ammonia eaters make some nitrite.
Have you done anything to the filter - changed the media, the filter itself, washed the media in tap water - forgotten to add dechlorinator at a water change?
Has anything been sprayed in the same room as the tank?
Have you accounted for all the fish? A dead fish stuck somewhere in the tank will make a lot of ammonia.
In the meantime, I'm afraid a lot of water changes are needed. I know the toxic part of the total ammonia is very low in your pH but it will end up as nitrite which will be very toxic in your water. You need to keep a close eye on your nitrite level and do big water changes to keep that low if it does show up.
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hi guys,thanks for replying, my tank is about 9 months old, had 20 fish living ok with all good readings, had probs a couple of months ago, and now at this stage, i have not washed out filter in tap water , but i have a filter that says change every month which i don't as would lose all my bacteria, it also has a carbon filter too which i change every month.i have not done any of other things that you mentioned sue. will keep an eye on nitrite levels and do a big water change at weekend and see what happens..
my ammonia reading is 4
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For ammonia, use this (http://www.hamzasreef.com/Contents/Calculators/FreeAmmonia.php) calculator. Leave the first box set at NH(NH3 + NH4); enter your ammonia reading; set salinity to zero; enter your pH and temperature. Then click calculate. You want the number in the second box on the right hand side, NH3 concentration. If that number is below 0.02, the fish are safe and you don't need to do a water change.
But with your pH, any reading above 0.25 nitrite will be toxic. It is possible to use plain salt to mitigate the effect of nitrite but I'm not sure how your cardinals would cope with salt. If you do get nitrite and want to risk salt, let me know and I'll give you the calculation for the amount to use.
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thanks sue,the reading i have is 0.0035 so they ok .. i will give them a big water change tomorrow and check them everyday and see if i can keep it down , thanks
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hi, did a big water change and ammonia still high so i tested the tap water… it read .25 to .5, this isn't normal is it? is there anything i could do, i.e. use bottled water, i would like to get the ammonia down even though it doesn't seem to affect my fish
, thanks
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The other thing to ask is, what light are you reading the test under? The API ammonia test is notorious for giving false positive results under fluorescent and energy saving bubs. Other tester makes might be the same. Some people report never having seen a zero colour even with several year old tanks.
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The API ammonia test is notorious for giving false positive results under fluorescent and energy saving bubs.
On this subject - despite having had a tank for a while now I've never been sure whether you should hold the test tubes against the white area on the colour charts are hold them away from the charts? I've found that the readings can appear quite different depending on which approach you use, Nitrate in particular being the most problematic - what can appear orange held up to a window, then appears red when held against the white area of the chart!
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It's supposed to be held against the chart.
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Well that's good news at least as that's what I've been doing - would've been somewhat awkward to find out I'd been doing it wrong for the last year!! :rotfl:
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You could test some bottled water or rain water to check the test colour against a known zero.
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hi, yes i hold against the chart too… i had 21 fish in about july with no ammonia or nitrite and everything rosy, now down to 7 fish and big ammonia,( cause unknown why they all started to die ) ill just keep trying to get it down.. also the manufacturer of the tank say to replace the filter and carbon filter every month is this right ? i change carbon one but not the filter ( they call it a floss algaway media) they also say not to clean the bio holster … i know that if i did that i would lose all my bacteria so obviously i don't clean it… so what I'm saying is do i replace both as they say monthly… ( its a panorama media cartridge 64l) thanks
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Google says this is a Love Fish tank from Pets@Home but I can't find a manual on-line.
If the floss algaway media is a kind of filter wool, also called floss, it isn't a very good medium for bacteria to live on. You'd be better replacing it with sponge, any make cut to fit. I would also replace the carbon with sponge as you don't need to use carbon routinely.
That just leaves the bioholder, and I have no idea what that is ???
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hi, a bio holder is the case the filter media sits in i guess, they prob think it sounds better. so 2 sponge filter media it is then..by the way the algie pad thing is green and made of a fibre type material not like a sponge i guess more like a scouring pad ;-) i will try new sponge media this weekend and put some tetra bacteria stuff in too. how long do you think before i see results in ammonia eating bacteria and nitrite , thanks
ps it is from pets at home and a love fish brand
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If it's like a scouring pad, that would work as a bacteria home. You know those pan scourers that look like a ball knitted from brightly coloured plastic? They are a very effective biomedium apparently.
Don't change all the media at once, do a bit at a time. And Tetra Safe Start is one bottled bacteria that can work if it's been handled properly. With that one you do have to follow the instructions, and I think they say something about not using it within so many hours of using a dechlorinator that detoxifies ammonia. See what the instructions actually say.
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ok, ill check before use, thanks sue :)
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It's supposed to be held against the chart.
I get so much reflect trying to do that cos the gap between the colours are so small, mines pretty constant thank goodness
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hi, i have been changing water at about 25% every other day and also replaced carbon filter with another sponge , on my readings i was getting high ammonia, high nitrite and low nitrate reading and ph 6.4, so i know my bacteria was working then two days later ph 6.0 high ammonia and no nitrite and low nitrate, should nitrite drop so fast without nitrate going up.. just cannot get ammonia down …… maybe its my filter, could you suggest a filter that would be good for a 60 litre tropical fish tank as this i the route i might go down , thanks
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With a pH that low I would not worry about ammonia. There will be only a trace of the toxic form. The one to keep low is nitrite as that is more toxic at low pH.
What is the pH of your tap water after it's stood for 24 hours? The readings you give are very low; the filter bacteria stop multiplying below around 6.5.
If you do want another filter, the better ones on the market are Eheim aquaballs and Fluval U series.
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hi , my ph of water stood for 24 h is about 6.6 to 6.8 isn , ammonia .25, nitrite nil and nitrate 0.. why would the ph go to 6 in my tank , i have no plants just ornaments and plastic plants and 7 fish in 60 litre tank, i would like to a couple more fish in but scared of what might happen to them if i put more in. i did have 20 in once and they were all ok until filter broke and all hell let loose and not really recovered from it but not lost any for a while now. i would like to get some bactria growing again and get back to normal .. my nitrite was about 2 to 5 on tuesday so did 30% water change and by thursday i had none !! though ph had gone to 6 ( yellow on api tester scale ) any ideas , thanks
:(
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I wonder if you have a very low KH. The end product of the nitrogen cycle (nitrate) is acidic, as are other chemicals excreted by the fish. If your KH is very low there will be no buffer to stabilise the pH and the pH would fall.
Do you have any wood in the tank? That would also release acids (tannins) contributing to the problem.
You can buy testers for KH but the cheapest first step would be to ask a shop to test a sample of tapwater for both KH and GH. If they turn out to be low, especially KH, there are things you can do to increase KH, GH and pH. But you need to check your KH and GH before doing anything.
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hi, i have no wood in the tank just plastic plants and ornaments.. i will either buy a kit or take to shop to have tested later.. can i also ask if have another tank and want to fish less cycle it what is the best way to do it , thanks
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You have 2 choices. Either do a fishless cycle using ammonia or steal a bit of media from the current tank, put it in the new tank's filter and do a fishless cycle using ammonia. The second way should be quicker as getting the bacteria started is the slow bit; any bacteria you can add will speed things up.
Though with the problems you've had recently, if you want to do option 2 I'd wait till the current tank has settled down.
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hi, i will steal a bit of media when my other tank settles down, but i do believe thats its my ph levels going to 6 as when i have 6.5 ph the bacteria grows and i get nitrite etc, thanks
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hi, i have tested my kh and gh.. sat 18th oct…. gh 120… kh…0 thurs 23 oct gh 180….kh nil to 40…..
nitrites and nitrates nil and ph 6 each time … don't know what they mean, but i guess you do ;-) is there anything i can do to get ph up to 6.6 to 7 , thanks
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hi, i have just tested my tap water and gh is 60 to 120 and kh is 40 to 80 , which is good according to the chart on the testers , :-0
:fishy1:
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Hi Fruitbat,
I think Sue called it a while back:
I wonder if you have a very low KH. The end product of the nitrogen cycle (nitrate) is acidic, as are other chemicals excreted by the fish. If your KH is very low there will be no buffer to stabilise the pH and the pH would fall.
KH is carbonate hardness and basically helps keep pH stable, as such, because yours is so low this probably explains why your pH is dropping so rapidly. What I'm not sure about is why the KH in your tank is lower than from your tap - I'm sure someone with more knowledge in this area will advise.
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hi, I've heard that if you agitate the water too much this can be a reason for low kh, ( maybe an old wives tale ) just waiting for sue to come up with some answers ;-)
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It's boiling the water that removes KH. Carbonates decompose with heat. That's why carbonate hardness is called temporary hardness.
Are you using strip testers? They are not the most accurate. But 40ppm KH is just above 2 German degrees - and 4 degrees is the lower limit for water stability. Even 80 is a bit on the low side. I think this low KH is the cause of your pH problems. It's lower in the tank because it's getting used up, and possibly the inaccuracy of the strips.
Your GH at 180ppm is classed as moderately hard.
You could try putting something made of calcium carbonate in the tank. Chunks of limestone rock; shells; pieces of coral or crushed coral; aragonite sand. Inside the filter is the best place for crushed coral or sand, if that could be managed. These all dissolve slowly, increasing both KH and ph, which you want, and also GH.
The other alternative is to get some remineralisation salts of the kind made for use with RO water. You would need to use them at every water change. The best way would be to add the salts to a bucket of water till you got the KH where you want it (around 100ppm) and add that concentration when you do water changes. Using just the amount for the new water rather than the whole tank would increase the amount in the tank slowly.
And the filter bacteria need carbonate in the water and a high pH to multiply. You might well find that getting more carbonate into the tank helps the ammonia too as the bacteria will be able to multiply faster.
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hi, can i put some crushed coral in a mesh bag and put in my filter holder next to sponge media,
,
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That would be perfect.
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hi, a little too late i think now , woke up this morning and had a nitrite spike that took all my fish bar 2 cardinals.. not had nitrite for a while, did a 30 % water change fri dinnertime trying to keep ammonia down and buffer my kh … we was out last night and didn't look at them till morning and my danios and a cardinal were dead .. checking water fri dinner ammonia was .5 to 1 and nitrite was 0 nitrate was 20 isn and ph 6 (yellow) checked this morning and all same except nitrite which was very high 5 isn .. maybe its time to stop as just cannot get it working properly the last 3 months ,just keep losing fish
:(
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What fish do you have left?
I think the remedy is to treat your water as though it was RO water and add some remineralisation salts. You wouldn't need to add much, just enough to get your KH above the danger mark. But you would need a liquid GH and KH tester set to do this.
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hi, i have just two ill looking cardinals left, I'm going to put them in my smaller tank tomorrow when i reset it up and shut the big one down. maybe ill start again next year with the 60l tank I'm not really sure. i enjoyed the first 6 months of fish keeping but last 3 months have taken a lot of work and to be honest its very sad to wake up to dead fish and not know what to do etc..i felt like dr death sometimes!! thanks for all your help sue.. as the terminator says .. i might be back :-) :fishy1: