Author Topic: 98L [orig intended 54L/12Gal Tank] stocking and filtration ideas? (Read 26525 times) 63 replies

Barney626 · « **on:** June 07, 2015, 04:39:17 PM »

Hi again,
After some great help on another thread I have bought a 54L Marina premium 54 tank. It comes with a marina i110 filter. I was wondering if it is worth adding in an under-gravel filter as well or if they are just a gimmick? Also, would it be a good idea to get some 'bacteria in a bottle' for cycling to speed the process up?

I also wanted to ask about stocking ideas once I finish cycling the tank. I am looking for a community tank, a (very) small group of smaller fish like tetra's maybe a few shrimps and one or two other fish? I have seen to many different ideas about bettas and other species being together I was wondering if it was worth avoiding putting a betta and tetras/shrimps together?
Unsure on what kind of numbers I should be putting in this tank as I am aware it is fairly small as tanks go...

Thanks for any help,
Barney

fcmf · « **Reply #1 on:** June 07, 2015, 06:31:56 PM »

Hi,

I can't advise on the filtration aspect as I know very little about under-gravel filters; however, others will be able to help with that aspect. I am fairly certain that I've read that under-gravel filters aren't a wise choice if you were planning to keep bottom feeders (eg corydoras), though.

In terms of 'bacteria in a bottle', I did use Tetra Safestart, with no adverse consequences, but I think others have mixed views of whether or not these are beneficial and worth the money.

As for stocking ideas, tetras are ideal for this size of tank - but tetras should be kept in shoals of at least 6 of the same type of tetra (eg 6+ x-ray tetras as opposed to 3 x-ray tetras and 3 cardinal tetras) and seem to do better in larger groups. You could 'comfortably' have a couple of these "half a dozen" sizes of shoals - in fact, if there were one particular type of shoaling fish that you particularly liked, then 12 of them would actually fare better in terms of group behaviour and intensity of colouring than two different shoals of 6 as it's more akin to their natural environment. The 'community creator' on this website http://www.thinkfish.co.uk/fish-profiles is great for putting in details of what you might like, and working out what might or might not be feasible for the size of the tank - you could request that it only provides details of fish under 5cm, for example.

What I'd strongly advise is to find out what your water parameters are, so that you can work out what type of fish would suit that water. For example, if you had very soft, acidic water, then you'd be best to avoid some types of fish that are more suited to hard, alkaline water. Once you've established that, then it's looking on the 'community creator', and then browsing round some aquatic shops to see if anything particularly catches your attention and 'matches' what you might have seen on the 'community creator' as potentially suitable - and 'cross check' online once back home as sometimes there are similar sounding names but actually very different fish. Also, sometimes the labelling on tanks in shops isn't accurate because fish have been moved about, so worth going in with an idea of what you're expecting the fish to look like, then, when you've found them, see if the fish are indeed to your liking or not.

Hope this helps, and keep us posted on what takes your fancy, and we can advise from there re potential compatibility of other tankmates, etc.

Cod_only_knows · « **Reply #2 on:** June 07, 2015, 06:47:25 PM »

I have a similar sized tank (55l) however mine is a 40cm cube so not really long enough for most tetras, unlike you 60cm x 30cm. That extra 20cm opens the door to an array of fish types that aren't suitable for my cube.

As fcmf says, once you know your water parameters the community creator is a great place to start thinking about stocking. The Seriously Fish website has even more species and more detailed info on each.

If you are after small fish, you can go even smaller than tetra. Check out Celestial Pearl Danios and Emerald Dwarf Rasbora if your water is on the hard side, whilst the Boraras family if you have soft acidic water. I have just bought some Pseudomugil sp. 'red neon' and love them. They are perfect for my nano tank, colourful, outgoing and real characters. If you go for these nano fish you can have larger numbers in your tank due to their smaller bioload.

With regards to filters, I'd go for an external over undergravel as it allows for easier maintenance and better water quality. You can often find deals on Gumtree and eBay if you can't stretch to a new one.

Sue · « **Reply #3 on:** June 07, 2015, 07:24:23 PM »

Undergravel filters aren't used much these days. They were the first type of biological filter before internals and externals were invented. They have their drawbacks. They have to be used with gravel, so that limits bottom feeders, most of which are better on sand. They can't have plants rooted in the gravel as the water flow disturbs the roots. Plants that can be tied to decor are fine though. Large pieces of decor are not a good idea as the water won't flow through the gravel under them, creating dead spots. Fry, and I include baby shrimps, can be sucked into the gravel and killed. And finally, the tank has to be emptied every 12 months so the muck can be removed from under the plates - unless you use a reverse flow pump which pushed water down the 'uplift' tube and up through the gravel. An external or second internal is much better.

According to Hagen's website, the i110

Quote

the inside chambers contain carbon to remove pollutants and odors; and zeolite to eliminate toxic ammonia for a cleaner, healthier aquarium environment and crystal clear water.

Carbon is not necessary on a routine basis, and zeolite absorbs ammonia - until it gets full when it stops. This ties you into replacing the cartridges before they get full, for ever. And because zeolite removes ammonia, there isn't enough in the water to grow the bacteria colonies leading to high ammonia if the cartridges aren't changes on time. If you want to use this filter, I would take out the cartridges and replace them with sponge.

Bacterial starters are very hit and miss. The best one isn't available in the UK. The second best is Tetra safe Start, which works provided the instructions are followed to the letter - and it has been stored correctly since manufacture (and between wholesalers and transporters, is quite likely to have been stored incorrectly). Others can help speed up the first stage of growing ammonia eaters but do nothing for the second stage as they contain the wrong species of nitrite eaters.

Bettas:
These fish are very variable in temperament. Some are so aggressive they will attack any other fish in the tank; others are very laid back and are often the target of aggression rather than the cause. Tetras have teeth and can damage a betta's fins, even those tetras not known to be nippy often can't help themselves when confronted with long flowing fins. The best tankmates are bottom dwellers that are not brightly coloured, ie cories. In a 60cm long tank, that means one of the dwarf species or panda cories.
And shrimps are not a good idea with bettas as they will become a nice tasty snack.
If you really want a betta, a second, 25-ish litre tank is the better option.

Once we know how hard your water is, it will be easier to suggest a 'centrepiece' fish instead of a betta.

Barney626 · « **Reply #4 on:** June 07, 2015, 08:27:46 PM »

Thanks for the replies,
Working on getting water test results. In the mean time, if the i110 filter is not a good choice, what would be a good alternative? I will have the tank on a desk so external filters would be difficult to conceal.

I am not desperate for a betta, I guess it was just an option. I am mainly limited in choice of fish by what local fish shops stock. So if you suggest a few different fish I can go and have a look if they have any of the suggestions.

Thanks again

Sue · « **Reply #5 on:** June 08, 2015, 11:13:42 AM »

Any filter that doesn't rely on cartridges is fine.
From personal experience I can recommend the Eheim Aquaball 130 or possibly 60 (in my 50 litre tank) and Maidenhead Aquatics' Aqua Internal 100 (I have the 50 in my betta's tank). The Fluval U series also comes highly rated - go for the U2 rather than the U1 as the flow can be turned down and the U1 would be right at its limit.
The Eheims and Fluvals are expensive but considered to be the best on the market.
Both the Fluval and Aqua Internal contain carbon - the Fluval has poly carbon pads, just use filter wool instead; the Aqua Internal has a hollow sponge filled with carbon granules, empty those out and fill the hole with more sponge.

The cheapest option would be to buy some filter sponge, any brand, and cut it down to fit the i110. It's just the choice of media in there I don't like.

Softish water:
ember tetra
any of the Boraras species
neon tetra
if your shop sells them, Microdevario kubotai
cherry barb

Hardish water:
fish of the genus Pseudomugil
endlers livebearers or guppies

Just a few suggestions till you discover how hard your water is.

Barney626 · « **Reply #6 on:** June 08, 2015, 12:46:15 PM »

Hi again,
Turns out my water is pretty much medium hardness. So I assume it would be safe to get either type of fish?

For the filter, you suggested emptying out carbon and replacing it with sponge, is sponge better than carbon? Does a filter need/benefit from carbon?

The i110 filter seems to have a removable 'bioscreen' which i assume is the zeolite? could I just remove this?

Out of your suggested filters I liked the look of the Fluval U2 series or the Eheim Aquaball. The aquaball comes in 3 sizes but the largest size is only £5 more than the smallest so should I get the bigger one if I get the aquaball?

Out of those two (U2 and aquaball) which would be more quiet?

Thanks again.

Sue · « **Reply #7 on:** June 08, 2015, 02:18:41 PM »

I've not used a Fluval U series so I can't comment on the loudness or otherwise of that filter. The aquaball hums very quietly. If the humming gets noticeable, it's time to clean the impeller and the well.

The limiting factor for the aquaball is the available height in the tank. According to Hagen's website, your tank is pretty much the same size as my 50 litre, which is 60 x 30 x 31 cm. That 31 cm height is just the glass, I've not included the hood, but Hagen quote the total height of your tank at 37cm including the hood. I can fit the 130 in my tank but the 180 would be too tall. With the 130 vs the 60, the bigger one would allow for upgrading the tank at some point in the future

and the flow rate can be turned down if it is too strong in a smaller tank.

I can't find the manual for the i110 anywhere on-line. The picture on the box seems to show something black in a frame (the bioscreen) and a cartridge which is white fluffy held by a plastic frame. Hagen's website does have a link to the 'power cartridge' and that is made from polyester foam filled with carbon and zeolite. It is this white cartridge I meant to replace with sponge. The bioscreen sounds like something different. The polyester foam in cartridges is usually more like stiff filter wool (aka floss) rather than a sponge.

With middling hardness water you can have most fish. The best thing to do is check with Seriously Fish for the requirements before buying any fish. Their database is bigger than Thinkfish's

Barney626 · « **Reply #8 on:** June 08, 2015, 06:34:55 PM »

Another thing, plants: Live vs. plastic?

Are live plants especially more work to keep maintained or does the added 'filtration' outweigh any more maintenance effort needed?

Sue · « **Reply #9 on:** June 08, 2015, 07:20:03 PM »

Live plants are better than fake. I speak as a recent convert

But if you don't want live plants, plastic or silk are fine. I always preferred silk to plastic, but that's personal taste.
Live plants can help keep nitrate levels low. They use nitrate as fertiliser, though they actually prefer ammonia, so a heavily planted tank doesn't grow as many bacteria as a lightly or non-planted tank.

You will see tanks with lots of different plant species, and people talking about lighting, carbon dioxide, EI index, special substrates etc. These are people who like planted tanks with a few fish added for a bit of interest. Other people want a fish tank with a few plants for added interest, me included.

I am useless with live plants. But there are some I can grow that don't need that much fussing with. Look at java fern (Microsorum pteropus), anubias, java moss (Taxiphyllum). These are grown attached to decor rather than planted in the substrate. They are slow growing plants that do not need fancy lighting, no special substrates (since they aren't planted!), no carbon dioxide injection and very little in the way of fertiliser. Hornwort (Ceratophyllum) can be planted or left as a floating plant - I wrap the stems round decor to anchor them. I have also had success with the fern like plant Bolbitis, though this is classed as medium difficulty rather than easy. It is another plant that is grown on decor. And of course there are floating plants which need little attention. Not to mention moss balls, which are actually algae!
You'll find all these plants listed here to see what I'm talking about.

Other members know much more about plants than me. Hopefully they'll come along and tell you more

Extreme_One · « **Reply #10 on:** June 08, 2015, 07:21:53 PM »

Ask 50 fishkeepers and you'll get 50 different answers.

I'm setting up my new aquarium and I'm going for real plants.
It's my first time so I'm throwing myself in the deep end.

I've not bought yet, ordering online on payday and, assuming they all arrive in good condition, I'm adding precisely 91 plants across 15 different varieties.

I feel they always look better than fake and they offer additional filtration, oxygenation and habitat for your fish to thrive in.

But I respect anyone else that chooses fake plants.

I expect I'm going to need to work that much harder to keep my aquarium in tiptop condition.
Hopefully it'll be worth it...

fcmf · « **Reply #11 on:** June 08, 2015, 08:05:28 PM »

Hi,

I have the i110 filter in the Marina tank. I also happened to have the Fluval U2 before that during my goldfish keeping days, having replaced a Fluval 3 which I'd had for 12+ yrs.

In the i110, the carbon and zeolite are actually both inside the cartridges. The 'bioscreen' is actually just the plastic 'grid'. I would leave the bioscreen in place but, if you don't want the carbon and zeolite, then you could replace those cartridges with sponge. The i110 is incredibly quiet - I sometimes check to be sure that it's actually functioning as it's so inaudible. As I mentioned before, it doesn't provide much surface agitation but instead has a strong waterfall effect which I counteract somewhat by putting a rock underneath where the water hits the tank bottom, otherwise the substrate disappears from that section.

The Fluval U2 was still quiet (much quieter than the older Fluval 3 which had a powerful jet of water skimming the water surface) but you'd know it was on if you were sitting in silence as there was a slight hum or it would occasionally spurt with more force. There are 3 settings on it - from memory (as I have it stowed away), these vary depending on whether you want more surface agitation, more water movement lower down in the tank, or an even spread of underwater agitation. The filter output tends to be horizontal from the 3 nozzles (as opposed to the i110's vertical filter output). It is bigger/bulkier than the i110 but would still be fine in the tank unless you had some species of fish which didn't like being buffeted around too much - my 6-inch goldfish was buffeted if he swam in line with the U2 filter output.

As for the plastic .v. fake plants, I opted for fake as I wanted to focus on the fishkeeping (rather than plant maintenance) side of things to begin with, as tropical fishkeeping was new to me. The fake plants are silk - softer than plastic, and therefore less likely to injure the fish - and the Bi-Orb ones tend to come with weighted bases which means that they are less likely to float out from the substrate.

Hope this helps.

m6rrd · « **Reply #12 on:** June 08, 2015, 09:15:50 PM »

Hi Barny and hi to everyone else too. My lord, you've opened some hornets nest questions with that lot

I agree with everyone that says bigger is better when it comes to filtration, much better to have a larger filter working at half capacity with that margin for error than have a smaller one (even if within parameters) right on the edge of its capabilities. Undergravel filters or U/G were at one time the only kind of filter available (bar bubble fed sponge types, primarily used in breeding tanks containing fry and hospital tanks) and despite what you may read nowdays, properly maintained they were very, very capable systems.

I ran a 4' marine fish only tank using reverse flow and a skimmer, my coral beauty and angels never complained. they can be run by air filter down the stack pipe or the more efficient 'powerhead' approach or if you were really swish powerhead on reverse to provide reverse flow U/G. The drawbacks as have been mentioned are that they use gravel as filter medium, meaning sand isnt an option (well can be but involves coarser substrate, then gravel tidy and then coarse sand which can be tedious) also if normal flow is used then every single bit of floating debris or detritus is attracted to it which isnt neccessarily a problem but regular 'hoovering' is a must. also you must make sure that there is a minimum coverage of the 'plates' 50mm rings a bell but I'd need to look it up because the substrate is not only decorative as in most tanks now but actually the working part of a filter system.

Sue is right, plants dont especially like U/G systems, I found that if I 'potted' the plants then I had much more success however plants like Cabomba and vallis seemed to do ok without it. There is nothing like a densly live planted tank but they can be troublesome for the new hobbiest, not because plants are particularly hard to keep but dont forget those lights that you turn on to watch your fish are actually needed by the plants for no less than 10 hours a day, your trying to simulate daylight but also with new setups nitrites and nitrates tend to be a bit higher and those combined with lots of light are algae's dream! lol.

There are plants that have less light requirements, plants suited to half light that thrive with less so if your watching the pennies and or dont want the tubes burning for so long then seek these out. I'm sure there are more than enough helpful people on here that know far more about plants than I do (I've always been more 'meat' than 'veg') and can advise you accordingly.

To all the new commers to the hobby, please dont let the thought of such things put you off, these problems are best experienced for yourself and with advice from forums like this and help from a few members the solutions will come and your experience grows. goodluck

Anne · « **Reply #13 on:** June 08, 2015, 10:08:39 PM »

Hi

I have a Fluval U2 and as fcmf said they are pretty much silent, if the plants didn't sway slightly and the surface ripples I wouldnt know it was on. I can't compare it to any other makes as I have only had Fluval filters but I am very happy with it.

Anne

Barney626 · « **Reply #14 on:** June 10, 2015, 05:48:57 PM »

Hi again,

planning on getting the tank this Saturday. Just had a few more questions:

While cycling the tank, should I have ornaments/live plants in the water?

If I am planning on having 3-4 shrimps would moss balls be a good addition?

Can standard plants like java fern grow healthily in gravel and without any CO2 equipment?

Thanks again.

Sue · « **Reply #15 on:** June 10, 2015, 06:29:51 PM »

While cycling you can certainly have decorations. Plants are a bit different. If you were going for a heavily planted tank you would do the cycle differently, only starting after about 3 weeks to let the plants establish themselves. But with a few slower growing plants like java fern (as you mention that one) they won't make much of an impact on the cycle. You might find it easier to get the plants once cycling has finished, simply because some plants can't cope with 3ppm ammonia in the water.

Shrimps would love moss balls. Although they are made of algae, it's not the kind that shrimps will eat. But it might look as though they are eating a moss ball when they are really just eating the micro-organisms living on it.
Tip - roll the ball along when cleaning the tank. It helps keep them in a spherical shape.

Java fern can't be grown in any substrate as the rhizome would rot. They grow attached to ornaments. Tie them on at first and they'll soon attach themselves. And no, they don't need CO2 added, respiration from the fish will provide what they need. Java fern, anubias etc are slow growing plants so they don't need as much light, CO2 or fertiliser as fast growing plants. I have java fern in all my tanks, attached to wood - bogwood in the smaller tanks and redmoor wood in the largest. I also have anubias in the 50 and 180 litre tanks, both dwarf forms and a larger variety on bogwood and redmoor wood.

Barney626 · « **Reply #16 on:** June 10, 2015, 08:05:15 PM »

I also wanted to ask about snails, shop bought ones.

Are they useful? What kinds are best? What do they need in terms of care? are they compatible with standard fish?

EDIT: What would be the best substrate for shrimps/bottom feeders and live plants?
Thanks again

Sue · « **Reply #17 on:** June 10, 2015, 09:17:43 PM »

Richard W reckons plain old garden soil from an area that hasn't been treated with chemicals is a good plant substrate underneath the usual gravel or sand. You can also buy special plant substrates but they do tend to be a bit pricey.

Bottom feeding fish prefer sand as it doesn't erode their barbels. You can get away with small smooth gravel, with smooth being the word to watch for. I don't think shrimps mind to much what it is.

Shop bought snails tend to be of two types. You will see a third type in older websites and in forums which have members from outside the EU - the import of apple snails was banned a couple of years ago by the EU so you will see them referred to but we can't buy the any longer. Well, except from hobbyists who have bred them as they aren't imported eg on Ebay.
The two in shops are ramshorns and nerites. One ramshorn, a large beige and brown stripey one, will eat plants but the other kinds don't seem to. They will lay eggs which will hatch. Nerites will also lay eggs but they won't hatch just leave sesame seed like eggs on things. I have nerites in all my tanks, the range from 1cm to 2.5cm depending on the species and in my opinion are just about the best algae eater. They don't eat plants either.

Cod_only_knows · « **Reply #18 on:** June 10, 2015, 09:31:02 PM »

Don't forget Sulawesi Snails, Malaysian Trumpet Snails, Black Devil Spike Snails and my favourite the Assassin Snail Sue!

Sulawesi and Black Devil snails are relatively large snails. I've never kept any Sulawesi snails, but my Black Devil snail largely eats decaying plant matter. He spends most of his time buried in the substrate only to emerge from the sand at lights out. Very handy snail as I'm pretty sure he munches black beard algae off my Java moss. Sulawesi snails can be beautiful, a quick google will bring up plenty of examples.

Malaysian Trumpet Snails are smaller snails that also spend more of their day under the substrate, eating detritus and keep the substrate aerated. They will breed like rabbits if there's a lot of food in the tank. They emerge at night and mop up algae in the tank. I've read they will climb out of the water in their droves if the water quality is bad.

Assassin snails are snails that eat other snails. They have a beautiful yellow and dark brown snail and march around the tank like little daleks when food is about. They also bury themselves in the substrate and do an excellent job at keeping 'pest' snail numbers in check.

Sue · « **Reply #19 on:** June 11, 2015, 12:34:30 PM »

I only realised I'd missed out all those snails a couple of hours after I turned my laptop off

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98L [orig Intended 54L/12Gal Tank] Stocking And Filtration Ideas?

98L [orig Intended 54L/12Gal Tank] Stocking And Filtration Ideas?

Author Topic: 98L [orig intended 54L/12Gal Tank] stocking and filtration ideas? (Read 26525 times) 63 replies

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