Tropical Fish Forum
Tropical Fish Keeping Help and Advice => New Fishkeepers => Topic started by: Barney626 on June 07, 2015, 04:39:17 PM
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Hi again,
After some great help on another thread I have bought a 54L Marina premium 54 tank. It comes with a marina i110 filter. I was wondering if it is worth adding in an under-gravel filter as well or if they are just a gimmick? Also, would it be a good idea to get some 'bacteria in a bottle' for cycling to speed the process up?
I also wanted to ask about stocking ideas once I finish cycling the tank. I am looking for a community tank, a (very) small group of smaller fish like tetra's maybe a few shrimps and one or two other fish? I have seen to many different ideas about bettas and other species being together I was wondering if it was worth avoiding putting a betta and tetras/shrimps together?
Unsure on what kind of numbers I should be putting in this tank as I am aware it is fairly small as tanks go...
Thanks for any help,
Barney
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Hi,
I can't advise on the filtration aspect as I know very little about under-gravel filters; however, others will be able to help with that aspect. I am fairly certain that I've read that under-gravel filters aren't a wise choice if you were planning to keep bottom feeders (eg corydoras), though.
In terms of 'bacteria in a bottle', I did use Tetra Safestart, with no adverse consequences, but I think others have mixed views of whether or not these are beneficial and worth the money.
As for stocking ideas, tetras are ideal for this size of tank - but tetras should be kept in shoals of at least 6 of the same type of tetra (eg 6+ x-ray tetras as opposed to 3 x-ray tetras and 3 cardinal tetras) and seem to do better in larger groups. You could 'comfortably' have a couple of these "half a dozen" sizes of shoals - in fact, if there were one particular type of shoaling fish that you particularly liked, then 12 of them would actually fare better in terms of group behaviour and intensity of colouring than two different shoals of 6 as it's more akin to their natural environment. The 'community creator' on this website http://www.thinkfish.co.uk/fish-profiles is great for putting in details of what you might like, and working out what might or might not be feasible for the size of the tank - you could request that it only provides details of fish under 5cm, for example.
What I'd strongly advise is to find out what your water parameters are, so that you can work out what type of fish would suit that water. For example, if you had very soft, acidic water, then you'd be best to avoid some types of fish that are more suited to hard, alkaline water. Once you've established that, then it's looking on the 'community creator', and then browsing round some aquatic shops to see if anything particularly catches your attention and 'matches' what you might have seen on the 'community creator' as potentially suitable - and 'cross check' online once back home as sometimes there are similar sounding names but actually very different fish. Also, sometimes the labelling on tanks in shops isn't accurate because fish have been moved about, so worth going in with an idea of what you're expecting the fish to look like, then, when you've found them, see if the fish are indeed to your liking or not.
Hope this helps, and keep us posted on what takes your fancy, and we can advise from there re potential compatibility of other tankmates, etc.
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I have a similar sized tank (55l) however mine is a 40cm cube so not really long enough for most tetras, unlike you 60cm x 30cm. That extra 20cm opens the door to an array of fish types that aren't suitable for my cube.
As fcmf says, once you know your water parameters the community creator is a great place to start thinking about stocking. The Seriously Fish website has even more species and more detailed info on each.
If you are after small fish, you can go even smaller than tetra. Check out Celestial Pearl Danios and Emerald Dwarf Rasbora if your water is on the hard side, whilst the Boraras family if you have soft acidic water. I have just bought some Pseudomugil sp. 'red neon' and love them. They are perfect for my nano tank, colourful, outgoing and real characters. If you go for these nano fish you can have larger numbers in your tank due to their smaller bioload.
With regards to filters, I'd go for an external over undergravel as it allows for easier maintenance and better water quality. You can often find deals on Gumtree and eBay if you can't stretch to a new one.
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Undergravel filters aren't used much these days. They were the first type of biological filter before internals and externals were invented. They have their drawbacks. They have to be used with gravel, so that limits bottom feeders, most of which are better on sand. They can't have plants rooted in the gravel as the water flow disturbs the roots. Plants that can be tied to decor are fine though. Large pieces of decor are not a good idea as the water won't flow through the gravel under them, creating dead spots. Fry, and I include baby shrimps, can be sucked into the gravel and killed. And finally, the tank has to be emptied every 12 months so the muck can be removed from under the plates - unless you use a reverse flow pump which pushed water down the 'uplift' tube and up through the gravel. An external or second internal is much better.
According to Hagen's website, the i110 the inside chambers contain carbon to remove pollutants and odors; and zeolite to eliminate toxic ammonia for a cleaner, healthier aquarium environment and crystal clear water.
Carbon is not necessary on a routine basis, and zeolite absorbs ammonia - until it gets full when it stops. This ties you into replacing the cartridges before they get full, for ever. And because zeolite removes ammonia, there isn't enough in the water to grow the bacteria colonies leading to high ammonia if the cartridges aren't changes on time. If you want to use this filter, I would take out the cartridges and replace them with sponge.
Bacterial starters are very hit and miss. The best one isn't available in the UK. The second best is Tetra safe Start, which works provided the instructions are followed to the letter - and it has been stored correctly since manufacture (and between wholesalers and transporters, is quite likely to have been stored incorrectly). Others can help speed up the first stage of growing ammonia eaters but do nothing for the second stage as they contain the wrong species of nitrite eaters.
Bettas:
These fish are very variable in temperament. Some are so aggressive they will attack any other fish in the tank; others are very laid back and are often the target of aggression rather than the cause. Tetras have teeth and can damage a betta's fins, even those tetras not known to be nippy often can't help themselves when confronted with long flowing fins. The best tankmates are bottom dwellers that are not brightly coloured, ie cories. In a 60cm long tank, that means one of the dwarf species or panda cories.
And shrimps are not a good idea with bettas as they will become a nice tasty snack.
If you really want a betta, a second, 25-ish litre tank is the better option.
Once we know how hard your water is, it will be easier to suggest a 'centrepiece' fish instead of a betta.
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Thanks for the replies,
Working on getting water test results. In the mean time, if the i110 filter is not a good choice, what would be a good alternative? I will have the tank on a desk so external filters would be difficult to conceal.
I am not desperate for a betta, I guess it was just an option. I am mainly limited in choice of fish by what local fish shops stock. So if you suggest a few different fish I can go and have a look if they have any of the suggestions.
Thanks again
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Any filter that doesn't rely on cartridges is fine.
From personal experience I can recommend the Eheim Aquaball 130 or possibly 60 (in my 50 litre tank) and Maidenhead Aquatics' Aqua Internal 100 (I have the 50 in my betta's tank). The Fluval U series also comes highly rated - go for the U2 rather than the U1 as the flow can be turned down and the U1 would be right at its limit.
The Eheims and Fluvals are expensive but considered to be the best on the market.
Both the Fluval and Aqua Internal contain carbon - the Fluval has poly carbon pads, just use filter wool instead; the Aqua Internal has a hollow sponge filled with carbon granules, empty those out and fill the hole with more sponge.
The cheapest option would be to buy some filter sponge, any brand, and cut it down to fit the i110. It's just the choice of media in there I don't like.
Softish water:
ember tetra
any of the Boraras (http://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/search/boraras) species
neon tetra
if your shop sells them, Microdevario kubotai (http://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/microdevario-kubotai/)
cherry barb
Hardish water:
fish of the genus Pseudomugil (http://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/search/pseudomugil)
endlers livebearers or guppies
Just a few suggestions till you discover how hard your water is.
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Hi again,
Turns out my water is pretty much medium hardness. So I assume it would be safe to get either type of fish?
For the filter, you suggested emptying out carbon and replacing it with sponge, is sponge better than carbon? Does a filter need/benefit from carbon?
The i110 filter seems to have a removable 'bioscreen' which i assume is the zeolite? could I just remove this?
Out of your suggested filters I liked the look of the Fluval U2 series or the Eheim Aquaball. The aquaball comes in 3 sizes but the largest size is only £5 more than the smallest so should I get the bigger one if I get the aquaball?
Out of those two (U2 and aquaball) which would be more quiet?
Thanks again.
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I've not used a Fluval U series so I can't comment on the loudness or otherwise of that filter. The aquaball hums very quietly. If the humming gets noticeable, it's time to clean the impeller and the well.
The limiting factor for the aquaball is the available height in the tank. According to Hagen's website, your tank is pretty much the same size as my 50 litre, which is 60 x 30 x 31 cm. That 31 cm height is just the glass, I've not included the hood, but Hagen quote the total height of your tank at 37cm including the hood. I can fit the 130 in my tank but the 180 would be too tall. With the 130 vs the 60, the bigger one would allow for upgrading the tank at some point in the future ;) and the flow rate can be turned down if it is too strong in a smaller tank.
I can't find the manual for the i110 anywhere on-line. The picture on the box seems to show something black in a frame (the bioscreen) and a cartridge which is white fluffy held by a plastic frame. Hagen's website does have a link to the 'power cartridge' and that is made from polyester foam filled with carbon and zeolite. It is this white cartridge I meant to replace with sponge. The bioscreen sounds like something different. The polyester foam in cartridges is usually more like stiff filter wool (aka floss) rather than a sponge.
With middling hardness water you can have most fish. The best thing to do is check with Seriously Fish (http://www.seriouslyfish.com/knowledge-base/) for the requirements before buying any fish. Their database is bigger than Thinkfish's
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Another thing, plants: Live vs. plastic?
Are live plants especially more work to keep maintained or does the added 'filtration' outweigh any more maintenance effort needed?
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Live plants are better than fake. I speak as a recent convert ;D But if you don't want live plants, plastic or silk are fine. I always preferred silk to plastic, but that's personal taste.
Live plants can help keep nitrate levels low. They use nitrate as fertiliser, though they actually prefer ammonia, so a heavily planted tank doesn't grow as many bacteria as a lightly or non-planted tank.
You will see tanks with lots of different plant species, and people talking about lighting, carbon dioxide, EI index, special substrates etc. These are people who like planted tanks with a few fish added for a bit of interest. Other people want a fish tank with a few plants for added interest, me included.
I am useless with live plants. But there are some I can grow that don't need that much fussing with. Look at java fern (Microsorum pteropus), anubias, java moss (Taxiphyllum). These are grown attached to decor rather than planted in the substrate. They are slow growing plants that do not need fancy lighting, no special substrates (since they aren't planted!), no carbon dioxide injection and very little in the way of fertiliser. Hornwort (Ceratophyllum) can be planted or left as a floating plant - I wrap the stems round decor to anchor them. I have also had success with the fern like plant Bolbitis, though this is classed as medium difficulty rather than easy. It is another plant that is grown on decor. And of course there are floating plants which need little attention. Not to mention moss balls, which are actually algae!
You'll find all these plants listed here (http://tropica.com/en) to see what I'm talking about.
Other members know much more about plants than me. Hopefully they'll come along and tell you more ;D
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Ask 50 fishkeepers and you'll get 50 different answers.
I'm setting up my new aquarium and I'm going for real plants.
It's my first time so I'm throwing myself in the deep end.
I've not bought yet, ordering online on payday and, assuming they all arrive in good condition, I'm adding precisely 91 plants across 15 different varieties.
I feel they always look better than fake and they offer additional filtration, oxygenation and habitat for your fish to thrive in.
But I respect anyone else that chooses fake plants.
I expect I'm going to need to work that much harder to keep my aquarium in tiptop condition.
Hopefully it'll be worth it... :)
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Hi,
I have the i110 filter in the Marina tank. I also happened to have the Fluval U2 before that during my goldfish keeping days, having replaced a Fluval 3 which I'd had for 12+ yrs.
In the i110, the carbon and zeolite are actually both inside the cartridges. The 'bioscreen' is actually just the plastic 'grid'. I would leave the bioscreen in place but, if you don't want the carbon and zeolite, then you could replace those cartridges with sponge. The i110 is incredibly quiet - I sometimes check to be sure that it's actually functioning as it's so inaudible. As I mentioned before, it doesn't provide much surface agitation but instead has a strong waterfall effect which I counteract somewhat by putting a rock underneath where the water hits the tank bottom, otherwise the substrate disappears from that section.
The Fluval U2 was still quiet (much quieter than the older Fluval 3 which had a powerful jet of water skimming the water surface) but you'd know it was on if you were sitting in silence as there was a slight hum or it would occasionally spurt with more force. There are 3 settings on it - from memory (as I have it stowed away), these vary depending on whether you want more surface agitation, more water movement lower down in the tank, or an even spread of underwater agitation. The filter output tends to be horizontal from the 3 nozzles (as opposed to the i110's vertical filter output). It is bigger/bulkier than the i110 but would still be fine in the tank unless you had some species of fish which didn't like being buffeted around too much - my 6-inch goldfish was buffeted if he swam in line with the U2 filter output.
As for the plastic .v. fake plants, I opted for fake as I wanted to focus on the fishkeeping (rather than plant maintenance) side of things to begin with, as tropical fishkeeping was new to me. The fake plants are silk - softer than plastic, and therefore less likely to injure the fish - and the Bi-Orb ones tend to come with weighted bases which means that they are less likely to float out from the substrate.
Hope this helps.
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Hi Barny and hi to everyone else too. My lord, you've opened some hornets nest questions with that lot ;)
I agree with everyone that says bigger is better when it comes to filtration, much better to have a larger filter working at half capacity with that margin for error than have a smaller one (even if within parameters) right on the edge of its capabilities. Undergravel filters or U/G were at one time the only kind of filter available (bar bubble fed sponge types, primarily used in breeding tanks containing fry and hospital tanks) and despite what you may read nowdays, properly maintained they were very, very capable systems.
I ran a 4' marine fish only tank using reverse flow and a skimmer, my coral beauty and angels never complained. they can be run by air filter down the stack pipe or the more efficient 'powerhead' approach or if you were really swish powerhead on reverse to provide reverse flow U/G. The drawbacks as have been mentioned are that they use gravel as filter medium, meaning sand isnt an option (well can be but involves coarser substrate, then gravel tidy and then coarse sand which can be tedious) also if normal flow is used then every single bit of floating debris or detritus is attracted to it which isnt neccessarily a problem but regular 'hoovering' is a must. also you must make sure that there is a minimum coverage of the 'plates' 50mm rings a bell but I'd need to look it up because the substrate is not only decorative as in most tanks now but actually the working part of a filter system.
Sue is right, plants dont especially like U/G systems, I found that if I 'potted' the plants then I had much more success however plants like Cabomba and vallis seemed to do ok without it. There is nothing like a densly live planted tank but they can be troublesome for the new hobbiest, not because plants are particularly hard to keep but dont forget those lights that you turn on to watch your fish are actually needed by the plants for no less than 10 hours a day, your trying to simulate daylight but also with new setups nitrites and nitrates tend to be a bit higher and those combined with lots of light are algae's dream! lol.
There are plants that have less light requirements, plants suited to half light that thrive with less so if your watching the pennies and or dont want the tubes burning for so long then seek these out. I'm sure there are more than enough helpful people on here that know far more about plants than I do (I've always been more 'meat' than 'veg') and can advise you accordingly.
To all the new commers to the hobby, please dont let the thought of such things put you off, these problems are best experienced for yourself and with advice from forums like this and help from a few members the solutions will come and your experience grows. goodluck
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Hi
I have a Fluval U2 and as fcmf said they are pretty much silent, if the plants didn't sway slightly and the surface ripples I wouldnt know it was on. I can't compare it to any other makes as I have only had Fluval filters but I am very happy with it.
Anne
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Hi again,
planning on getting the tank this Saturday. Just had a few more questions:
While cycling the tank, should I have ornaments/live plants in the water?
If I am planning on having 3-4 shrimps would moss balls be a good addition?
Can standard plants like java fern grow healthily in gravel and without any CO2 equipment?
Thanks again.
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While cycling you can certainly have decorations. Plants are a bit different. If you were going for a heavily planted tank you would do the cycle differently, only starting after about 3 weeks to let the plants establish themselves. But with a few slower growing plants like java fern (as you mention that one) they won't make much of an impact on the cycle. You might find it easier to get the plants once cycling has finished, simply because some plants can't cope with 3ppm ammonia in the water.
Shrimps would love moss balls. Although they are made of algae, it's not the kind that shrimps will eat. But it might look as though they are eating a moss ball when they are really just eating the micro-organisms living on it.
Tip - roll the ball along when cleaning the tank. It helps keep them in a spherical shape.
Java fern can't be grown in any substrate as the rhizome would rot. They grow attached to ornaments. Tie them on at first and they'll soon attach themselves. And no, they don't need CO2 added, respiration from the fish will provide what they need. Java fern, anubias etc are slow growing plants so they don't need as much light, CO2 or fertiliser as fast growing plants. I have java fern in all my tanks, attached to wood - bogwood in the smaller tanks and redmoor wood in the largest. I also have anubias in the 50 and 180 litre tanks, both dwarf forms and a larger variety on bogwood and redmoor wood.
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I also wanted to ask about snails, shop bought ones.
Are they useful? What kinds are best? What do they need in terms of care? are they compatible with standard fish?
EDIT: What would be the best substrate for shrimps/bottom feeders and live plants?
Thanks again
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Richard W reckons plain old garden soil from an area that hasn't been treated with chemicals is a good plant substrate underneath the usual gravel or sand. You can also buy special plant substrates but they do tend to be a bit pricey.
Bottom feeding fish prefer sand as it doesn't erode their barbels. You can get away with small smooth gravel, with smooth being the word to watch for. I don't think shrimps mind to much what it is.
Shop bought snails tend to be of two types. You will see a third type in older websites and in forums which have members from outside the EU - the import of apple snails was banned a couple of years ago by the EU so you will see them referred to but we can't buy the any longer. Well, except from hobbyists who have bred them as they aren't imported eg on Ebay.
The two in shops are ramshorns and nerites. One ramshorn, a large beige and brown stripey one, will eat plants but the other kinds don't seem to. They will lay eggs which will hatch. Nerites will also lay eggs but they won't hatch just leave sesame seed like eggs on things. I have nerites in all my tanks, the range from 1cm to 2.5cm depending on the species and in my opinion are just about the best algae eater. They don't eat plants either.
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Don't forget Sulawesi Snails, Malaysian Trumpet Snails, Black Devil Spike Snails and my favourite the Assassin Snail Sue!
Sulawesi and Black Devil snails are relatively large snails. I've never kept any Sulawesi snails, but my Black Devil snail largely eats decaying plant matter. He spends most of his time buried in the substrate only to emerge from the sand at lights out. Very handy snail as I'm pretty sure he munches black beard algae off my Java moss. Sulawesi snails can be beautiful, a quick google will bring up plenty of examples.
Malaysian Trumpet Snails are smaller snails that also spend more of their day under the substrate, eating detritus and keep the substrate aerated. They will breed like rabbits if there's a lot of food in the tank. They emerge at night and mop up algae in the tank. I've read they will climb out of the water in their droves if the water quality is bad.
Assassin snails are snails that eat other snails. They have a beautiful yellow and dark brown snail and march around the tank like little daleks when food is about. They also bury themselves in the substrate and do an excellent job at keeping 'pest' snail numbers in check.
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I only realised I'd missed out all those snails a couple of hours after I turned my laptop off ;D
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Hi again,
Going to get the tank tomorrow along with the substrate and ornaments.
For the substrate, I am unsure what will be the best for my tank. I am planning live planted with shrimps and snails. I have seen gravel, sand and small brown granules which are supposedly good for plants. I want to avoid multi-layer substrates as I would mix them up when I use suction on the surface to clean it.
Thanks.
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Sand and a plant substrate could be the easiest if you want plants, but listen to other people rather than me on the subject of planting tanks. The reason I say this is because you clean sand by hovering the siphon tube half an inch above the sand and make little swirling motions to lift the muck off the bottom and into the tube. There is much less chance of mixing sand with a plant substrate underneath. You do suck up sand as well but all you need to do is wash it under the tap and put it back in. (The tiny amount of chlorine that gets into the tank is negligible).
Which snails do you want? Some of them burrow into the gravel so they could potentially mix layers up.
But I am well known for being useless with plants. Hopefully one of the other members who knows what they are talking about will be able to tell you the best way to approach planted tanks.
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Hi again,
Probably nerite snails.
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Neirtes don't bury them selves, or at least mine don't. Occasionally one will crawl down the glass and onto the bottom under the sand but it doesn't stay buried for long. Nerites shouldn't churn up layers.
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Ok so, went out to buy the tank today and they didn't have the Marina in stock. So I got a different one. A bigger one. instead of the measly 54L marina, I went with a 98L Aquael which so far seems to be of decent quality. It is pretty identical to the Aquael Econoline 70.
I have used the aquasoil as a substrate and have a Fluval U3 filter (parents had a spare one :P).
Obviously this increase in size opens up a new array of fish.
In my LFS I found and Elephant Nose fish, would this be a good fish to get or are they difficult to care for?
In a tank 'so' large would angle fish be a good idea or would they be too agressive? Same question for a Betta?
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Angel fish are placid but because their long fins make them a target you need to choose their tank-mates carefully.
Exactly the same with a Betta.
If you want a Betta and/or Angels in your community tank you must ensure their tank-mates won't be likely to nip their fins.
Use the Community Builder on this site and you'll be told compatibility issues to watch out
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Don't think I'd call Angels or Bettas placid. Angels are generally okay in a community setup, though being cichlids they may squabble with their own kind. They may also eat smaller fish, so be careful when selecting tankmates.
Bettas are also temperamental fish, whilst some will not bat an eyelid at another fish, others can dominate a tank. Again you'll have to be careful selecting tank mates.
Sorry, but your tank is too small for an elephant nose. They need at least 255l according to Seriously Fish. Not the easiest fish to keep as they are quite territorial. They're also nocturnal, so you might not see them much!
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Don't think I'd call Angels placid. Angels are generally okay in a community setup, though being cichlids they may squabble with their own kind. They may also eat smaller fish, so be careful when selecting tankmates.
I agree with that..... I've kept angels for many years and some can be absolute B******s!!! not only with their own kind but with others. some however are quiet..... luck of the draw I guess. I also agree about the elephant nose, I kept one for a friend when he was between setups prob for about 6 months. They are fascinating, I used to run normal lighting in the daytime for the other fish and a moon tube from early evening when 'snuffy' came out, There was this party trick involving a scrunched up piece of aluminium foil about the size of a fruit pastel, it used to drive the small electrical impulses wild causing him to play football up and down the tank. He was lovely but keeping them is not for the faint hearted, no matter what I tried he would not eat anything but live worm! I had a couple of white worm colonies growing on ready brek thank god and that was substituted with shop bought live bloodworm! defo leave it a while before trying to keep this kind of fish. :cheers: cheers, Rich
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What would be a good 'centerpiece' fish for this size of community tank?
I'm wary of betta's incase Tetras have a go at their fins...
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I'm a huge fan of Gourami. The Pearl Gourami (Trichopodus leerii) is a stunning fish and one of the more peaceful in the genus. You might want to check out the Dwarf Gourami (Trichogaster lalius) as it is a stunning fish, but like the Betta, shouldn't be kept with other large colourful fish. They can be quite aggressive, but are suitable for many community setups. The biggest problem is finding a healthy specimen as they prone to disease. Both these species are readily available at most good fish stores.
Thicklipped Gourami (Trichogaster labiosa) are a very peaceful fish that look similar to Dwarf Gourami, however they are more difficult to find and not quite as pretty.
I love Honey Gourami but I'm guessing they'll be too small for you.
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Oh yeah, and some tetra are more prone to fin nipping than others. What type do you have in mind? Keeping them in large numbers reduces their tendency to nip.
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Just checked your tank dimensions and 70cm is too short for Pearl Gouramis (and Angelfish). If you really want a centerpiece fish, then your best off checking out the Dwarf Gourami or the more peaceful but smaller Honey Gourami in my opinion.
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Definitely much too small for those fish, as noted above. Personally I'm not convinced by "centrepiece" fish, a lonely gourami will often sulk in a corner of the tank. A male dwarf gourami will possibly chase other fish and can become a bully. My opinion is that in a small tank like this, a few shoals of small fish will look better and be much happier.
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I'd agree with that Richard. Maybe a trio of Honey Gourami? 1m 2f?
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Hi again,
I was looking about on the internet for various ideas on fish and I found out about Kili Fish (Aphyosemion gardneri). Would this be suitable for my tank?
If it is suitable my LFS does not stock these, however they are on online shops......
Is buying fish and getting them 'delivered' safe/humane/a good idea?
I have a feeling the answer will be no, but if I can get them delivered that would help a lot...
Thanks again.
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As a rough draft of a stocking list how does this sound for my tank: http://puu.sh/ishU9/c5c5822978.png (Screen shot)
The Shrimp is there to represent 4 'Blue fire sakura shrimp' and 4 'Yellow fire shrimp'.
If any of these are incompatible I can change them.
Thanks again.
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Hi again,
I was looking about on the internet for various ideas on fish and I found out about Kili Fish (Aphyosemion gardneri). Would this be suitable for my tank?
If it is suitable my LFS does not stock these, however they are on online shops......
Is buying fish and getting them 'delivered' safe/humane/a good idea?
I have a feeling the answer will be no, but if I can get them delivered that would help a lot...
Thanks again.
Depends where you get them from.
I was going to order from Kesgrave Aquatics, via ebay as they have an excellent reputation. Instead I was able to go to the shop to see what it was like for the future.
Bit cramped but the fish seemed happy and the tanks were clean, and they were busy organising polystyrene boxes for despatching fish.
Best bet I think would be make a note of the supplier you are thinking of and ask google if there are any reviews of them.
That's what I did for Kesgrave which was how I knew they had a good reputation.
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I've just ordered some snails by post! :yikes:
I hope they arrive safely.
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I have bought fish by post in the past when I couldn't find anywhere local that had the fish I wanted. And by post I mean Royal Mail even though you aren't supposed to use them for live fish. With one exception, all the fish were fine - I was new to the internet when the first batch of fish arrived all dead and didn't know how to check on the seller, who I found out later had a bad reputation.
The only comment I will make on your draft list is the ram. They can be iffy fish, preferring very soft acid water, and temps in the upper 20s. If they have been tank bred for generations they can tolerate a wider range of conditions, but if the breeder has used a wild fish in the last 2 or 3 generations to widen the gene pool, they will be a lot less tolerant. A shop won't know if any fish in the store has recent wild ancestors.
And they should really be kept as a pair. These fish like to choose their own mates; buying a male and female doesn't guarantee they'll get on. The best way is to watch the shop tank a while to see if you can spot any pairs.
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Concerning the rams, I did read somewhere about the pairs so I figured I could ask the seller online if they had any pairs? I would get them from a LFS but non of them have rams...
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From what I've seen of on-line shops, they don't let you select the sex of fish, but you can always ask.
I'm quite surprised that none of your local shops stock rams. Do they not have rams of any type? Any rams other than bolivian rams are all the same species, Mikrogeophagus ramirezi (bolivians are M. altispinosus)
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Im going to look at another LFS ,which I only found out about today, tomorrow. Hopefully, they will have rams.
Other than the ram issue, are all the fish compatible/suitable? Which should be added first/last?
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If you like Lampeyes check out some of the 'Blue eye' family (Pseudomugil). They also have the blue eyes and are a similar size but are much more flamboyant and colourful.
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Wow, I love those!
Might get 6 of those instead! I assume the males are the ones with large fins? or both female and male?
Are their fins safe with the nippy little tetras?
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The males are the ones with the long fins. The females look like lampeyes with slightly coloured bodies, still attractive but not a patch on the males. I'd recommend 2m 4f for a group of 6. Whilst this may not sound great, you'll actually see a lot more of the males finnage as they display for the females. The males do spar from time to time, but most of their flaring is for the females. Personally rather than having 4 CPDs and 6 Blue Eyes, I'd go for 10 of one variety. They're much happier and more impressive in larger shoals.
I don't think you'll have any problems with fin nipping. Neons aren't particularly nippy, especially in a decent sized shoal. I keep 4 Xray tetras with my Pseudomugil and have no problems.
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So all male blue eyes wouldn't be an option?
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I have 7m and 2f in my tank as they were all the Pseumugil sp. red neon I could find at my 5 closest LFS. I wish I'd got 3m and 6f as most of the males don't flare, only the 2 or 3 dominant ones do. I'm pretty sure that a 2:1 female to male ratio would have resulted in much more displaying as the males compete for the female attention. You're also more likely to get successful spawning with that ratio.
They're boisterous little blighters but don't think all males would be a serious problem.
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Just got a reply from the seller about Ram pairs: http://puu.sh/ithDc/0d5cdc8032.png
Looks like I will either have to chance it online and hope they pair or go out and find a fish shop that sells them...
If they don't pair will they fight a lot?
Also, would khuli loaches be suitable? The community creator says they are too big for the danios but they seem smaller?
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A male and female that don't like each other could end up fighting.
With fish like rams the usual advice is to get several juveniles, wait till a pair forms then return the rest to the shop. The problem with this is that not all shops will take the 'spare' fish back.
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Had a look at the other fish shop, terrible selection. Safe to say no rams.
Is it even a good idea to get a pair that could potentially breed when I am pretty new to fish keeping and I really don't have the ability to deal with the additional fish produced? Would just getting two females be a safer option and remove the need to find a 'Pair' (allowing me to buy them online)
Thanks again.
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Two females should co-exist with no problems.
Do you have a Maidenhead Aquatics near you? They usually have them in stock.
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There is one I know of but 'near' Is a bit of a stretch. I guess I could call them and ask if they had any?
If I was to get a Male/female pair would they breed easily or does there have to be special conditions?
Would it be safe for the babies with shrimp and otocinclus's nosing about? Is the tank big enough for the other fish to keep away from the rams to avoid aggression? How many of the fry typically survive? would the addition over-stock my tank?
All these questions once the possibility of breeding arises....
Thanks again.
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Over the years I've had bolivian rams and apistogrammas spawn in a community tank. The bolivian rams laid eggs on a flat stone (I think non-bolivian rams do this too) while apistos spawn in a cave. The parents of both types chased other fish away, but only a short distance and only as a warning. Once the intruder was far enough away, the parents no longer chased, and even when they did, they didn't make contact. Because the eggs and newly hatched fry were safe in a cave, the apistos managed to raise their fry to the free swimming stage, when they were promptly eaten by their tank mates. The bolivian rams didn't get that far. Because the eggs were out in the open they were eaten pretty quickly. If there are more than two other fish in the tank, while the parents are chasing two fish, numbers 3, 4, 5 etc sneak in and grab an egg or two before the parents get back.
So, in summary, no fry survived into the free swimming stage in a community tank and although the parents of these two types chased the other fish they did no harm.
Disclaimer - there are always exceptions to any rule! And cichlids other than bolivian rams and apistos might be nastier to tank mates.
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So essentially there is no benefit for having a Male/female pair as opposed to a female/female pair as I am not interested in breeding them.
Also wanted to ask, which fish should I add first (from the list I posted)?
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Can't comment on the Rams as I've never kept them. I've heard they are sensitive fish so don't be too hard on yourself if you lose a couple.
With regards to stocking, whilst you don't have any fish that are known for being particularly tough, provided you've cycled the tank correctly most should be okay with two exceptions: Otos and Shrimp. They are algae eaters that require a mature tank. leave the tank a good few months before adding them. I'd say the Rams would also benefit from a more settled tank.
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I have tried to keep rams and on both occasions they died within weeks. That's why I got bolivian rams instead.
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Just flicking through the latest PFK and it says that Blue Rams are captive bred and consequently more resilient than their wild caught cousins. Might be worth trying to track some down if you were going down that route over the Bolivian option.
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The electric blue and gold - and long finned and balloon bodied - are more likely to have been captive bred than the original colour and body shape. It is the natural form that has the risk if a recent wild ancestor to introduce a wider gene pool. If a breeder has spent all that time developing a particular colour strain or body shape, they won't want to dilute it with a wild type.
Did PFK say blue or electric blue? It's just that the wild colouration is often referred to as blue ram or German blue ram (GBR)
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Happen to be reading the PFK at the moment so, to answer that last question, it says "Blue ram - Mikrogeophagus ramirezi" and refers to them as being "farmed, non-naturally occurring fish with a greater tolerance of water chemistry than wild types".
[Classifications are confusing - in the same edition of PFK, albeit in a reader interview, corydoras habrosus is also referred to as a pygmy cory. I thought corydoras pygmaeus were the pygmy cories, and corydoras habrosus were the salt and pepper cories. However, on checking Seriously Fish, it seems that the habrosus/salt & peppers can also be known as pygmies.]
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Interesting. This is the problem with common names, we could be using the same name for different fish or different names for the same fish.
My understanding has been that the farmed fish that have the same appearance as the wild ones could have a recent wild ancestor to add new genes to the line. The ones that have been selectively bred to get electric blue and gold colouration, and long fins and balloon shaped bodies will not have recent wild ancestors or that would ruin the selective breeding. The problem arises in knowing if blue rams are the wild coloured ones or the selectively bred ones. For as long as I've been keeping fish 'blue', as in German blue ram, has meant the wild coloured one while the selectively bred one is called electric blue or neon blue. Obviously different people mean different things by 'blue ram'.
Sanjo was sold a hastatus cory as a habrosus and that it didn't matter as they were both pygmies!
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Going back to the original post on the subject of tank stocking, it occurs to me that 54 litres is a bit on the small side for rams anyway. I know Seriously Fish says a tank with a 60 x 30cm base, but I would prefer a bigger tank.
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I've updated the title to reflect the size of the tank Barney eventually went for - a 98L rather than the 54L. I had a slight bit of tank envy when I read that particular post, hence remembering. :)
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I forgot about that :-[
The aquael econoline 70 has a 70 x 35 cm footprint (Barley said his tank was the same size as this one) which would be fine for a pair of rams. Or a pair of apistogrammas.
I've changed the title of the first post as well so the whole thread now has your title. The other 59 posts still have the old title though, it would take ages to change them one by one......
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Hi,
Thanks for changing the title, don't worry about the old posts.
I am currently waiting until next weekend to get some plants in the tank then I will get some fish in there. I'll be sure to check the tank is cycled before putting anything living in it.
I'm thinking of putting the Spotted blue eyes and the danio's in first?