Tropical Fish Forum
Tropical Fish Keeping Help and Advice => New Fishkeepers => Topic started by: pollydoodle on June 06, 2018, 08:00:52 PM
-
I've had my tank running (fishless) for 10 days now and for the first seven days used Seachem Prime. Took some test reading last night using a NTLabs kit
pH nearer 8 than 7.5
NH2: 0 NO2: 1 NO3: 20 KH: 15 GH: 12 We live in a hard water area
Are these 'normal' for this stage or do I need to be doing something else
-
Can you remind us, @pollydoodle, are you dosing ammonia to simulate fish waste and therefore preparing the filter to be able to process that (ie a fishless cycle) or are you just leaving the tank to sit with the filter switched on? If the latter, then your readings are going to be just the same as what you would get from the tap. If the former, how often have you been dosing ammonia?
Edited to add: here is a recap of previous discussions / info on the topic: https://forums.thinkfish.co.uk/new-fishkeepers/all-set-up/msg40227/#msg40227
-
I haven't used ammonia, it was Seachem Stability I used, for a week, not Prime, ::) which I used to de-chlorinate the water in the first instance.
I thought the 'Stability' was more or less to do the same job as ammonia
-
I thought the 'Stability' was more or less to do the same job as ammonia
Sue's reply in the thread I linked to is very helpful on the matter, in which she states "The Stability may help but you can't rely on it to cycle a tank. It may or may not contain the right species of bacteria, and if it has ever been stored incorrectly (eg freezing or baking in a lorry) it probably won't work. It is worth getting some ammonia and adding enough of that to give a reading of 3 ppm, then test after 24 hours. If you then have readings for ammonia and/or nitrite above zero, you need to do a fishless cycle. https://forums.thinkfish.co.uk/fishtank-filtration-and-cycling/fishless-cycling-how-to-do-it/"
Kleen-Off ammonia is the brand to buy - e-bay sells it at really good prices.
Hope that helps. :)
-
And also without a source of ammonia in the tank, any viable bacteria in the Stability will go into a dormant state. The longer they are dormant, the longer it takes them to 'wake up'.
A bottle of ammonia costs only a couple of £, which is a lot cheaper than buying more fish if you find the tank is not cycled and the fish die.
It is much safer, and a lot less work, if you add enough ammonia to give 3 ppm in your tank, then test for both ammonia and nitrite 24 hours later. If either of them show more than zero, the tank is not cycled and you will have saved yourself having to do a fish-in cycle with its daily water changes.
In your tank you will need 4.75 ml of 9.5% ammonia to get 3 ppm - and the Kleen Off Household Ammonia that fcmf referred to is 9.5%. I have some and since it doesn't say on the bottle I emailed the company to ask. A babies' medicine dosing syringe is ideal for measurements like this, or a suitable sized syringe off Ebay/Amazon
-
Thank you Sue, after last nights post, I've ordered some from ebay and am now waiting for delivery.
Some people are born to be idiots, and I'm obviously one of them! :vcross: :rotfl:
-
When the ammonia arrives, add 4.75 ml (5 if you can't measure 4.75) then half an hour later test ammonia. The half hour wait is to allow it to mix in. You'll have to guestimate 3 ppm because most testers do not have a colour for that amount. If the reading is less than 3, add a bit more but make sure you add the amounts so you know how many mls in total make 3ppm. If it is over 3 ppm, 4 is OK but any higher, remove some water and add more plain dechlorinated tap water.
24 hours after you add the ammonia, test ammonia & nitrite. If they are both zero, good the tank is cycled. If one or other - or both - are not zero, tell us the readings and we'll help with the best way forwards.
-
.
24 hours after you add the ammonia, test ammonia & nitrite. If they are both zero, good the tank is cycled. If one or other - or both - are not zero, tell us the readings and we'll help with the best way forwards.
I dosed with ammonia this morning and the reading looked like it would be 4
Does this mean that if everything is ok after 24 hours, fingers, or should I say fins, crossed, I could go out tomorrow afternoon and buy some fish :) :fishy1:
-
That's right. It all depends on the 24 hour later ammonia and nitrite readings. Two zeros mean the tank is ready for fish; only one zero or no zeros mean it isn't.
-
Fingers crossed. :)
-
:'( :'(
Soo disappointed. My ammonia and nitrite readings are 1 - 2. I'm finding it very hard to judge the colours against the box colours. Using NT labs test kit
What do I do next?
-
Look on the bright side - you won't be risking any fish during a fish-in cycle ;)
Test every second day (Tuesday, Thursday and so on) till you reach a day where ammonia is less than 0.75. If you you were starting from scratch, nitrite should also be over 2, but since you already have some bacteria - just not enough - you may well find nitrite does not go that high. So concentrate on the ammonia reading.
As soon as you have 0.75 ammonia, add a tiny bit less ammonia that you added yesterday so it gives 3 ppm rather than 4 ppm.
Then carry on testing every other day till you have 2 tests with zero ammonia, the first on one day and the second 2 days later. Make a note of the nitrite reading as well.
Then ask what to do next :)
-
Do you have plants in the tank Miss Doodle...?
-
Ooops :-[ I forgot to ask that. Live plants can be harmed by adding ammonia, and enough live plants means cycling is not necessary as plants use ammonia. If there are enough live plants they use all the ammonia made by the fish.
So yes, do you have any live plants in the tank, and if so how many?
-
Sue, I don't have any. Did think about it, but several people said don't bother!
Thanks
-
Live plants are better for the fish, but as long as you have some fake plants in there, the fish will be fine. I just forgot to check before telling you to add all that ammonia as it could kill some plants species. And if your tank had been stuffed full of live plants, you wouldn't have need to cycle it at all.
Plants, whatever they are made of, are important in a tank as they give the fish a feeling of security. Most of the small shoaling fish we keep are food for bigger fish in the wild so not having somewhere to hide if they feel threatened stresses fish - and stressed fish become sick easily. It sounds backwards but the more places they have to hide the more fish will come out in the open because they know the hiding places are there should that predator appear.
Tip - if you want a 'natural' looking tank, silk plants are more realistic than plastic. But even if you want dayglo plastic, the fish won't mind :)
-
Another important benefit of live plants is that they will help to keep those water parameters in check superbly... :)
-
All my 'plants' bar one, are silk. I suppose its too late to add live plants, but there again, it would be a 40 mile round trip to get some and couldn't be done until Wednesday, by which time, maybe, just maybe, the water will be coming right. I have also read they should be added at the same time as fish
-
You can add plants any time, and in many ways the more live plants the better... But not everybody wants them of course... The easiest way to add live plants and start enjoying their benefits would be to add some floating plants - I have some Amazon Frogbit in my tank... Just avoid the one called Duck Weed... With floating plants, there is no need to actually plant them as such, you simply chuck 'em in the tank... :)
The advice to add plants at the same time as fish is really geared around the fish having the benefits of live plants from the start, but it really does not mean that it's only safe to add them together...
-
It's never too late to switch to real plants. You don't have to have a full on plant substrate. There are a lot of plants that prefer to grow on wood or rocks and not in the substrate: annubias, java fern (several variants), mosses, african water fern, beucealandra (I'm so sorry, my spelling is atrocious).
And there are several good internet plant shops. If you are interested I can post links to the ones I have used.
But as @Sue said, it depends on the look you want to achieve. The fish are happy with fake plants.
-
I have been keeping fish for just over 20 years. I started with plastic plants then moved on to silk ones. Every live plant I tried died. Even duck weed died, and that is indestructible. But I kept seeing photos of tanks with live plants on forums and wishing I could do that.
So a few years ago I changed approach. I bought some java fern and attached to a plastic log ornament. It survived :o For a long time that's all I had - java fern attached to more and more ornaments. Then I got daring and gradually changed the plastic decor for real wood; and got more plants. My tank now had lots of plants. They are virtually all plants that grow on decor, though I do also have water sprite as a floating plant and hornwort wrapped round wood branches and also left to float.
This type of plant can be added whenever you want. They do not need any fancy substrate because these plants do not have roots in the substrate. They don't need any fancy lighting because they are slow growing. And they are very easy to move around if you don't like the arrangement :)
Stay with the silk/plastic plants until you are used to the maintenance regime of keeping fish. Then if you want to try live plants, look at java fern already attached to a coconut shell, or some other decor.
I've got most of my plants from Ebay!
-
You might find this page helps with choosing potential plants:
www.ScapeEasy.co.uk/plants.htm (http://www.ScapeEasy.co.uk/plants.htm)
-
As soon as you have 0.75 ammonia, add a tiny bit less ammonia that you added yesterday so it gives 3 ppm rather than 4 ppm.
Not quite there yet, but how much is a tiny bit less? I added 4.75, so would 4 be the right amount? and would things speed up a bit if I added some real plants - at the moment I feel like I'm all dressed up for a party, but no ones asking me to dance :rotfl:
I guess all newbies are in a hurry to start. :-\ ;D
-
If you don't get live plants, 4 ml should be fine, just check after half an hour (to let the new dose mix in)
If you do want to get live plants, either wait till the cycle is finished, or get them now, but wait till ammonia and nitrite have dropped before planting them. Or do a water change to get the readings low. Too much ammonia or nitrite in the water can harm some plants.
If you want just a couple of live plants it is better to wait till the cycle finishes as you need more than a couple of plants to remove the ammonia made by a tankful of fish.
With several plants wait a week or so after planting to make sure the plants are OK. The last thing you need is having plants die when there are fish in the tank because then there'll be nothing to take up the ammonia made by the fish, and decomposing plants will make additional ammonia.
Once you are satisfied that the plants are thriving, you can get the first of the fish species you want. For shoaling fish, get the whole shoal. Then test for ammonia and nitrite every day. If you get a reading above zero, do a water change. Once the readings have been zero for at least a week, get the next species and so on till you have all your fish.
-
Had my first reading of o ammonia and nitrite today :) Hopefully by the end of the week I can have fish!! :fishy1: :fishy1:
-
:cheers:
:fishy1:
-
Well done Miss Doodle... Exciting times ahead... :D
-
Hooray! :cheers:
-
Congrats :fishy1:
-
Now for the exciting bit. Choosing you first fish.
-
Yippee :wave:
My second 0 reading of ammonia and nitrite.
What to do now please Sue
-
Do you already have a plan, fish wise, @pollydoodle ...?
-
The next stage is to add 3 ppm ammonia and test in 24 hours. If both ammonia and nitrite are zero, the cycle is finished. Do a big (and I mean big) water change the day before you can get to the fish shop. If that will be more than 3 days, add 1ppm ammonia on the second day after double zeros 24 hours after adding ammonia.
If they are not both zero 24 hours after adding 3 ppm, tell us and we'll say what to do - it just saves me typing out all the possible scenarios at once ;)
-
Oh dear, no fish for me tomorrow :'( :'(
my readings tonight. ammonia .5 and nitrite 1
so disappointed
-
Oh dear :( The silver lining to the cloud is that you haven't put fish in a not-quite-cycled tank.
OK, so now -
#1 Test every 24 hours. As soon as you have ammonia less than 0.25 and nitrite less than 1, add another 3 ppm ammonia.
#2 Test again after 24 hours.
If that test shows 2 zeros, good. If they are not zero, repeat #1 and #2 until you get 2 zeros.
-
Sue, what would I do without you and 'ThinkFish' :)
Thank you so much :fishy1:
-
I was going to top up my empty water butts with the change!! :sick:
-
My water change water has been going straight onto the garden this last week. It saves using the hose pipe ;D
-
Mine too. I'm hoping my roses enjoyed the 55l water change yesterday. Not that there's any nutrients left in my tank water.
-
I don't have an outside tap, but I do have a hose that fits onto my external filters, so the tanks have been having more frequent water changes during the warm weather so I can water the garden.
-
Would that count if there's a hosepipe ban? :o
-
Wow, @Helen watching the news this morning and they are talking about reduction in water usage. :yikes:
All waste tank water (apart from brackish) is used in the garden, and now I'm less worried about the garden and more concerned about my tanks.
This may be time for a new thread... :o
-
I have been taking the water for testing from just under the surface. Tonight for some reason I decided to go deep and my readings were ammonia 0 and nitrite 0 which makes me think, Have I been doing it wrong all this time? :-[
do I still need to add more ammonia, and carry on as per last instructions Sue, or have I now reached my goal ???
-
Provided your filter moves the water round the tank, it shouldn't matter where you take the water from, although there is the possibility that taking it from just under the surface could also collect any debris floating on the surface.
Did you test any just under the surface water as well? It would be interesting to see if they are different, and by how much.
If the just under the surface readings are also zero, or very close, I would consider the cycle finished.
-
"If the just under the surface readings are also zero, or very close, I would consider the cycle finished."
would that mean I can do a water change tomorrow and then get some fish? possibly salmon to go with a nice salad :rotfl: : :fishy1:
-
Yes to both the tank fish and the salmon. I had a nice piece of salmon for dinner this evening ;D
-
:cheers: :fishy1: :fishy1: :fishy 1:near surface reading was the same.
Water change will probably kill me, I dont do heat :-\ but at least the water butts will get filled.
Next major decision, what to buy. Hard water, temp 25
I will be studying the book tonight
-
Cross check the book with Seriously Fish http://www.seriouslyfish.com/knowledge-base/ They are more up to date/more accurate than most books. The profiles have lots of info such as hardness, pH, temperature, minimum tank size, type of decor the species likes, fish they are happy with and any fish to avoid with any particular species.
-
Congratulations on completing your cycling. :cheers:
What fish are you considering?
This is very exciting. ;D
-
Not sure yet, any suggestions welcome and I can research before deciding. It's the first ones really, then I can work out how many to have in the tank and slowly take it from there. I know there's compatibliy guides and tools to work out how many on this amazing site. I don't know what I would've done without the help, especially from Sue
Thank you
-
Looking at your earlier post, you have KH: 15 GH: 12 . Can you check your water/utility website, input your postcode, and find out exactly what your water hardness level is, in terms of CaCO3 or degrees Clark/French/German, just to ensure that it "tallies" with your test kit results? That way, we'll be able to provide some suitable suggestions of fish whose requirements would fit in with your water parameters, and @Littlefish in particular is an expert on hard water fish (in fact, there can't be many which she doesn't have already or at least hasn't considered ;)).
-
I can't encourage anyone to take the same approach as I have (numerous tanks, some slightly weird stuff, and several containers of RO water so I can keep fish that perhaps I shouldn't really... :o ), but this thread contains a list that you may find useful to start with https://forums.thinkfish.co.uk/new-fishkeepers/list-of-fish-suitable-for-high-ph-and-hard-water/
However hard your water (mine is 17dH), there are lots of fish that will be suitable. :)
-
Did a big water change this morning, didn't go quite to plan. I'd hoped to remove it out of the house by hose, but ended up using a bucket. Good job one of my sons was here for the muscle. At least the water butt is now full :)
-
I do water changes with a bucket. Two buckets to be precise. I can lift more water for the outwards water as that only has to leave the floor by an inch so I can use a 12 litre bucket for that. But I have to lift the new water bucket onto a stool, and since my dechlorinator dose rate is 1 drop per 4.75 litres, I use a 10 litre bucket filled to 9.5 litres to refill.
The longest part is waiting for the kettle to boil for each bucket of new water.
-
FYI You will need to keep adding 1ppm ammonia each day until you get your fish if you are not getting them tomorrow to keep the bacteria you hace worked so hard to grow alive. (And then repeat the water change before you get fish).
-
Actually, it's not 1 ppm every day
If you can’t get to the shop as soon as the cycle has finished, add the one-third dose every 2 to 3 days to keep the bacteria fed, then do the big water change just before you go fish shopping.
If it will be 10 days or longer it would be worth adding 3 ppm a couple of days before going fish shopping just to check you still have two zeros after 24 hours.
-
I got 5 Platy's, (5s were on offer!!) mixed colours. fingers (or should it be fins ;) ) crossed they all survive
-
They should be fine in your water. You do realise that you'll now be pestered for photos ;D
Just to check - males, females or a mixture? And if a mixture, how many m and how many f?
-
Just to check - males, females or a mixture? And if a mixture, how many m and how many f?
Ooops!!! no idea. mistake number one, I should have found out. I will have to study them and try and work it out :vcross:
-
With 5 you need a maximum of two males. One would be better. Or all males or all females. The reason is that livebearer males pester females continuously. If there are more females than males each female gets time out while they chase another. Ideally the ratio is 1 male to 3 or more females.
Since you have only just got them, if you have a bad male:female ratio, see if the shop will swap some.
And don't forget that every female will have fry once a month :) Even with all females, if they've ever been in a tank with a male they'll be carrying sperm packets and can have fry for another 6 months or so.
-
Hooray, new fish. :cheers:
Platies were my first fish, and I still have 2 females which were the offspring from the original fish.
Mine have a tendency to eat a lot, any type of food, there's no stopping them. ::) :)
I hope that yours settle in well, and I'm looking forward to seeing pictures.
-
One died!! it was the night I bought them :'( :'( I found the corpse yesterday morning.
I did a water test and they were all 0. ammonia, nitrite & nitrate. I was warned it could happen, but I can't help feeling sad.
I couldn't believe how nervous I was when I went to buy them. :yikes: Cant wait to add some more. I've had differing advice, wait one week or 2? - provided the water is ok of course
And now even my husband is taking an interest. :) and my 6 mnth Granddaughter was fascinated watching them dart about. I will post a pic soon
-
I'm sorry to hear about the platy :( The fish in the shop have been through a lot - being imported from the breeding farms, placed in the wholesaler's tanks, shipped to the shop, placed in the shop's tanks, chased with a net every time someone buys a fish from that tank, placed in a tiny bag, and finally released into yet another new tank. It is not surprising that some fish are so stressed they can't cope.
Since you did a fishless cycle you can get more straight away. The fish you have won't make enough ammonia to feed all the bacteria you have just grown so if you wait a couple of weeks they'll start to go dormant. But I'd stop at 75% of your planned fish for a few months. If there are any fish on your wish list that need a mature tank, as opposed to a cycled tank, they have to wait a few months anyway.
3 ppm ammonia was chosen for fishless cycling as it is more than a sensibly stocked tankful of fish will make in a day, but is low enough so that nitrite does not go higher than the stall point during cycling.
-
How many more in one go would you suggest?
-
To be honest, as many fish as will take you up to 75% stocked. It is only cycling with fish that you have to add only a few at a time. With fishless cycling you can get all 75% of your wish list in one go.
What fish have you in mind?
-
mollies, neon tetras, some sort of ground feeders and algae eaters for a start. I have jotted down a list, but haven't done much more than basic research because I thought I would be waiting ages :-\ Now I will have to look at water hardness, temp. compatibility etc Maybe I can shop tomorrow or wed.
I'd be happy to accept suggestions
There is a small aquatic centre within 2 miles. I visited a couple of times when I was thinking things through but then my son took over and he spent all my money elsewhere so now I'm too embarrassed to go back, :-[ although it seems silly to travel 25 - 30 miles round trip when I can get a lot of what I want locally - and support a small business.
-
Ahhh.
Mollies and platies need hard water; neon tetras need soft water. I'm afraid they are not compatible.
Looking back through your thread I see that your hardness is 12 dH. This is actually too soft for mollies - they need 15 to 35 dH. Mollies tend to get something called the shimmies if the water is not hard enough.
The top of the range for neons is 12 dH but we should always aim to keep fish where the hardness is in the middle of their range, so neons should be in water where that hardness is around 6 dH.
Bottom feeders are corydoras and loaches, both of which are soft water fish.
Somewhere in the forum is a list of fish suitable for hard water. I'm having trouble finding it at the moment........
-
Found it!
https://forums.thinkfish.co.uk/new-fishkeepers/list-of-fish-suitable-for-high-ph-and-hard-water/
But you need to bear in mind that your water is not very hard. Check with http://www.seriouslyfish.com/knowledge-base/ that any species you like the looks of has 12 dH or 215 ppm is in the middle of their hardness range.
-
Being totally unscientific - unless its biology, all these numbers are, well, just numbers. The Wessex Water website mentions, apart from calcium.
Degrees Clark (UK) 19.81 Degrees German (dh) 15.85 Degrees French (f) 28.3 and says
"Your water hardness level is classified as hard"
-
Yep, that's hard water.
If it's any consolation mine is 17dh (german).
It may take a while to find fish that you like that are suitable for your water, but they are available.
You will probably find soft water fish being kept in hard water conditions at your local fish shop, but for their long term health that really isn't good, so try not to fall for that sort of thing.
-
Get some fish they said. It'll be easy, they just swim around all day and only need feeding :rotfl: :rotfl: :fishy1:
-
:rotfl:
Yeah, these sorts of things are always "easy". ;)
-
It's the German degrees you need - 15.85. In fish profiles that's called dH or degrees. It converts to 283 ppm, the other unit used in fish profiles.
All you need to do is look up the fish that you like on Seriously Fish and scroll down to 'Water Conditions'. In that section, every profile gives the temp, pH and hardness that the species needs. Some profiles give the hardness range in dH, others in ppm.
Then compare your 15.8 dH/283 ppm to the range quoted in the profile. If your values are near the middle of that range, that species is OK for your water.
So of the fish you specifically mentioned:
platies - range 10 to 30 dH - your 15.85 dH is fine
mollies - 15 to 35 dH - your 15.85 dH is right on the lower edge
neon tetras - 18 to 215 ppm - your 283 ppm is too hard
Since your water is slightly harder than I realised, you might get away with mollies. These, like platies, need 3 females for every male.
Word of warning - male livebearers will try to mate with anything that swims ;D
-
Word of warning - male livebearers will try to mate with anything that swims ;D
Good job I wasn't planning to get in with the fish then :yikes: :rotfl: :rotfl:
-
:o
:rotfl:
-
Word of warning - male livebearers will try to mate with anything that swims ;D
Yesterday it was like watching a porn channel :yikes: - not that I ever have :rotfl:
a male platy spent all morning chasing a female all round the tank. Thoughts! maybe the effort killed him off ;)