Zebra Nerite Snails & Kusuri Wormer Plus

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Offline Skittler

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Zebra Nerite Snails & Kusuri Wormer Plus
« on: October 06, 2015, 04:54:31 PM »
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Hello All,

Some of you may remember that my cycling shrimpery was dosed with Kusuri Wormer Plus to eradicate Hydra, and what I thought (probably erroneously) were Planaria. The treatment was successful, and a bonus was that the "hitchhiker" pond snails also perished! After 90, 50, and 30% w/c's, 8 Red Cherries were added. Six days later I saw shrimplets in the tank. These, and others later, have flourished. However, as mentioned elsewhere, I steadily lost 6 of the original RCS. At the time, I put this down to difficulty in acclimatisation. Now, I'm not so sure. Regular w/c's have been done, and parameters have always been fine.

Just over 3 months later, I added a Zebra Nerite snail. Three days later, after initially hoovering the front glass, it died, and was removed to a container (just to confirm). I was convinced that MA had sold me a dud, as it was on the gravel in the shop. After another partial w/c, I bought two more (from a different MA), which were motoring around the glass in the shop tank. After 1 day the front glass was spotless - it was astonishing. Then, as each day went by, their activity grew less and less, and they too perished after 2 weeks. By the time I removed them they were disintegrating. I have done 3 x 20% w/c's since, and parameters are still spot on.

Could it be that the med can stay on the tank walls, in the algae or whatever, even though the manufacturer states that it bio-degrades after 4 days, and w/c's are not necessary? Perhaps that only applies to fish? Kusuri do state that the product can kill some species of snail, including nerites. I think Sue has had a similar problem, when adding/returning a nerite too soon after treatment. Has anyone successfully added nerites to a tank following KWP/Flubendazole treatment?

                                          Skittler

Offline Sue

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Re: Zebra Nerite Snails & Kusuri Wormer Plus
« Reply #1 on: October 06, 2015, 05:17:06 PM »
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These meds are absorbed into algae and biofilm so that when the snails eat said algae, they are poisoned.

I had to go to great lengths to remove Kusuri Wormer Plus from my tank after I used it to treat camallanus worms, then had to do it all over again when the worms came back/weren't killed the first time and I used Sera Nematol.

What I do whenever I use a med is to run several small batches of carbon for a couple of days each in a small internal filter kept for this purpose. One batch won't get everything as there is an equilibrium between free med in the water and that bound to the carbon. The first batch of carbon adsorbs nearly all of it, then it is thrown away; the second batch removes almost all of what was left, then that too is thrown away. Maybe one more batch of carbon and then I stop using carbon and switch to Polyfilter. Yes it is expensive, but I run a layer of it in my little internal, twice. It used to be made by Underworld, but it was taken over by Arcadia - you may find it referred to by either manufacturer's name.

Then I wait three months, removing any algae that appears on the glass and easy to clean ornaments, and of course doing water changes, before returning snails to the tank. And even then just one at first to see if it gets killed.

Fish Community Creator Tanks
Siamese Fighting Fish (male) (1) - Snails (1) - Slender Harlequin (15) - Peacock Goby (4) - Otocinclus (5) - Pygmy Cory (3) - Axelrods Rasbora (5) - Japonica Shrimp (80) - Snails (5) - Neon Tetra (18) - Honey Gourami (1) -
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Offline Skittler

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Re: Zebra Nerite Snails & Kusuri Wormer Plus
« Reply #2 on: October 08, 2015, 10:24:10 AM »
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Thanks Sue,

My filter is an Aqua One Moray 320. I removed the carbon cartridge when I installed it, and replaced it with foam and crushed coral. It is over 4 months now since I added the KWP, and I am surprised that it seems so persistent. I will order 2 more carbon cartridges, and run them in sequence, and follow with Polyfilter, which seems to be available in most local LFS's. Would you still clean the algae from the glass etc, and, if so, before running the carbon? The shrimplets have no problem with it, but I really would like a nerite in there.

Thanks as always,

                                       Skittler

Offline Sue

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Re: Zebra Nerite Snails & Kusuri Wormer Plus
« Reply #3 on: October 08, 2015, 01:33:38 PM »
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It always seems odd to me that shrimps and snails don't seem to be affected by the same things, though thinking about it, one is an arthropod and the other a mollusc so I shouldn't really be surprised.


I had one remaining 5 year old amano shrimp when the camallanus worms appeared. He survived several doses of wormer plus, both the first time late last year then again early this year as I dosed wormer plus again while waiting for the nematol to arrive. But he died within hours of adding the nematol.

Your shrimps seem to be reacting the same way as my amano to the kwp, but I killed a nerite when I put one back too soon. So after using the kwp again then the nematol I did what I described above.
I would definitely clean the glass, and any easily cleaned decor. The shrimps will find food in the hard to get at places - places that snails will also find it hard to get at.

I've had nerties in my tanks for many years, and luckily have three tanks so if I ever need to treat the fish I can move the snails to another tank after a couple of days in a tub of water. And I always keep some polyfilter in the cupboard ready for removing med afterwards. That plus several cleans and water changes seems to do the trick. But because it is so expensive, I use cheap carbon to get rid of the bulk of the med first.

Fish Community Creator Tanks
Siamese Fighting Fish (male) (1) - Snails (1) - Slender Harlequin (15) - Peacock Goby (4) - Otocinclus (5) - Pygmy Cory (3) - Axelrods Rasbora (5) - Japonica Shrimp (80) - Snails (5) - Neon Tetra (18) - Honey Gourami (1) -
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Offline Skittler

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Re: Zebra Nerite Snails & Kusuri Wormer Plus
« Reply #4 on: October 08, 2015, 01:52:44 PM »
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Thanks Sue,

I will do that, and let you know how things progress in the future.

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Offline Skittler

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Re: Zebra Nerite Snails & Kusuri Wormer Plus
« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2016, 10:45:59 PM »
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Well, it's been a while since I promised an update. One way and another, it has not been a good winter for me. However things are now looking up!. It is now 9 months since I put the wormer in the tank, and the shrimps are thriving. There must be about 40, and I will shortly be extending the gene pool with a new addition or two.

So, I ran a load of carbon as Sue suggested, and threw it away afterwards. I daren't clean the glass because there are always a lot of baby shrimps on it having "lunch". After 9 months, and many, many water changes, I reasoned that the shrimplets will have eaten and "processed" the copper from the wormer, and the w/c's will have removed it. (Yes, I should have listened!)

I had bought 4 zebra nerites for my 125L, with the eventual intention of adding one of them to the shrimpery, when they had had a month or so cleaning the glass. They did an excellent job. So, one was transferred. For two weeks it hoovered away, doing a sterling job. Then, like before, it slowed down, and spent a lot of time half out of the water, rarely moving. I contemplated putting it back in the 125L, but before I could, and after 3 weeks, I found it on it's back in the tank, not moving, presumably dead. I removed it to a jug of 125L water and waited. To my surprise, after some 6 hours, it had moved a little. The next morning, it was on the side of the jug. It was returned to the 125L, near to the front glass, where I could see it. It very slowly made it's way to the glass, and stayed there for a week. If it moved 3 inches in that time, that would be an exaggeration. I never saw it eat, but it did lay 2 eggs!

Then, it slowly started to move, and feed a little. Now, another week later, it is zooming around the tank, just like before. I think this was a very close shave - either that, or I have been well and truly conned by a pregnant snail! I have ordered some Arcadia Polyfilter (as Sue suggested, of course), and will use that until it's gone. Then, perhaps, I will try one of the other nerites ......... unless, of course ........ you know a better solution?

                                                   Skittler


Offline Skittler

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Re: Zebra Nerite Snails & Kusuri Wormer Plus
« Reply #6 on: February 28, 2016, 02:37:08 PM »
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Update. Well, the Arcadia Polyfilter has arrived, and a 2" sq. piece was suspended from the spray/trickle bar with a piece of cotton. To my surprise, it didn't sink. Why I thought copper was the culprit, I don't know, and the Polyfilter didn't turn blue as expected, but brown. I have since checked on the web, and from what my very limited chemistry knowledge can glean, Flubendazole is organic, and therefore "brown" is the correct colour. I couldn't see any sign of copper in the formula ............. maybe my assumption was because it killed all the hitch-hiker snails as well.

So, so far so good. After another water change, the polyfilter has been replaced, and we will see how long this one takes to get "full".

                                       Skittler                                   


Offline Sue

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Re: Zebra Nerite Snails & Kusuri Wormer Plus
« Reply #7 on: February 28, 2016, 02:56:41 PM »
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Wormer plus doesn't contain copper, just the antihelmintic flubendazole; chemical name Methyl N-[6-(4-fluorobenzoyl)-1H-benzimidazol-2-yl]carbamate.

Killing snails is just a side effect of its main function, which is to kill flat worms (platyhelminthes) and round worms (nematodes). It also kills hydra.

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Offline Skittler

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Re: Zebra Nerite Snails & Kusuri Wormer Plus
« Reply #8 on: February 28, 2016, 03:25:22 PM »
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Hello Sue,

I saw that name on the website that I looked at  ....... and I still can't say it . Did you remember that?

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Offline Sue

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Re: Zebra Nerite Snails & Kusuri Wormer Plus
« Reply #9 on: February 28, 2016, 03:39:18 PM »
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No. I had to look it up as well. But I can pronounce it and understand the formula  ;D

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Offline Skittler

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Re: Zebra Nerite Snails & Kusuri Wormer Plus
« Reply #10 on: February 28, 2016, 04:31:11 PM »
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Good Grief!!

Years ago I studied to be an Engineer.

Today, I are one!

Thanks Sue,

                             Skittler

Offline Skittler

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Re: Zebra Nerite Snails & Kusuri Wormer Plus
« Reply #11 on: March 09, 2016, 11:58:53 AM »
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Well, I have had a bit of a crisis in the shrimpery. I first noticed that there were no baby shrimps on the glass, which I thought was odd. Then I spotted several dead adults. I immediately did a 30% w/c, and removed the Polyfilter as a precaution. After a few more fatalities, and the remaining shrimps looking a bit sad and inactive, I did another 30% w/c two days later. This tank has been regularly monitored. NH3 & NO2 have always been zero, although NO3 had crept up from 10 to 20 at the last check. I had also been adding a half dose of TNC Lite fertiliser every week, as some of the plants weren't thriving.

I am well aware that "the jury is still out" about shrimp w/c's, with at least one breeder recommending none. However, I have been doing 15-20% about once a fortnight. This made me think about TDS, and the possible effect of the fertiliser, and the increasing nitrates, (and "unmeasureables") possibly suggesting insufficient w/c's. So, I bought a meter - a TDS-3. Although I'm not yet convinced about it's accuracy, if  we assume that it is, and calculating backwards from the current readings for tap water and tank, then the TDS for the tank before the w/c's, could have been about 250/260ppm. This would put it at the top end, or over, most cherry shrimp breeder's recommended limits. With a KH of 4/5, and GH of 6/7, this would already put my TDS around 195-200 (say, 11x17.8). Not a lot of room for anything else!

This all started 7 days ago. The tank is now back to normal, and the remaining adults are feeding normally. I also have a few new tiny babies on the glass. I did a 20% w/c yesterday, and I will try to use the TDS meter to monitor the tank as well as the usual parameters. I have decided to stop adding the fertiliser for the moment.

I know that some of us have also had similar "unexplained" losses with shrimps. I hope this helps, but it's only a theory at the moment..........

                                                Skittler

PS Where did that smiley come from? Not me, because I cant! Should read "17.8"

Offline Sue

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Re: Zebra Nerite Snails & Kusuri Wormer Plus
« Reply #12 on: March 09, 2016, 12:15:52 PM »
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TNC's website says that TMC lite contains 0.002% copper; that shouldn't be high enough to kill shrimps.

It can only have something else   ???

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Offline Paddyc

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Re: Zebra Nerite Snails & Kusuri Wormer Plus
« Reply #13 on: March 09, 2016, 12:22:30 PM »
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Cool smiley can be written using a number 8 followed by a close bracket, like it's on it's side 8)

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Offline Skittler

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Re: Zebra Nerite Snails & Kusuri Wormer Plus
« Reply #14 on: March 09, 2016, 01:24:05 PM »
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Thanks Paddyc - I am afraid IT and me don't always see eye to eye. At the moment Robert is looking into the "smiley problem", which looks like it has something to do with Windows 10/Edge ..........

Thanks Sue. I did check the TNC Lite copper content before I ordered it, and didn't see it as a problem. Even though the copper level is miniscule, I hope that the Polyfilter will have removed it anyway. I read somewhere that all creatures need some copper to function ......even shrimps. Maybe the other constituents were enough to tip my TDS over the edge for the cherries?

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Offline Paddyc

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Re: Zebra Nerite Snails & Kusuri Wormer Plus
« Reply #15 on: March 09, 2016, 01:30:29 PM »
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Skittler, just to clarify, you did mean to type the 17.8 in the above post and close the brackets just after it? In which case you inadvertently typed the smiley code.

If you put a space after the 8 it works ( 17.8 )
If you don't it comes out (17.8)

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Offline Skittler

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Re: Zebra Nerite Snails & Kusuri Wormer Plus
« Reply #16 on: March 09, 2016, 01:42:25 PM »
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Thanks again Paddyc. Yes, I am aware of that system. The problem is that I cannot post a Smiley by clicking on the pictures above the reply box, since I changed to Windows 10/Edge. Richard W has the same problem. This is what Robert is investigating.

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Offline Paddyc

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Re: Zebra Nerite Snails & Kusuri Wormer Plus
« Reply #17 on: March 09, 2016, 01:51:25 PM »
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Ah I see what you mean. Apologies. In an effort to bring this back on topic, it's clear you've had a pretty rough time with your shrimpery and I hope the worst is behind you. I will look forward to hearing how you get on in the days and weeks to come. Good luck and I hope you get to the bottom of the issue  :D

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Offline Skittler

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Re: Zebra Nerite Snails & Kusuri Wormer Plus
« Reply #18 on: March 09, 2016, 02:23:08 PM »
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Thanks Paddyc. Everything still looks fine at the moment. Fingers crossed, and more w/c's to come!

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Offline Skittler

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Re: Zebra Nerite Snails & Kusuri Wormer Plus
« Reply #19 on: May 11, 2016, 02:21:33 PM »
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Hello Shrimpers,

Well, its nearly a year now since I added the wormer. I have added 4 new "fire red" cherries, and some additional plants - hygrophila polysperma and affinis. Inevitably, despite a thorough examination, I now have some "hitchhiker" snails. They seem to be coping well. I will leave them for a short while, before returning one nerite to help with the algae. The hitchhikers will then be transferred, as and when, to the assassins in the QT.

I have a quite a few baby RCS of different sizes, so perhaps, after a year, the tank is back to normal?


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Offline Sue

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Re: Zebra Nerite Snails & Kusuri Wormer Plus
« Reply #20 on: May 11, 2016, 03:04:50 PM »
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If the shrimps are thriving, the tank is back to normal. They don't like these meds either.

Fish Community Creator Tanks
Siamese Fighting Fish (male) (1) - Snails (1) - Slender Harlequin (15) - Peacock Goby (4) - Otocinclus (5) - Pygmy Cory (3) - Axelrods Rasbora (5) - Japonica Shrimp (80) - Snails (5) - Neon Tetra (18) - Honey Gourami (1) -
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Offline Fiona

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Re: Zebra Nerite Snails & Kusuri Wormer Plus
« Reply #21 on: May 14, 2016, 11:52:43 AM »
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If you add just 1 assassin to the shrimpery it'll kill of the pest snails for you and then you can just take it out when the jobs done

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Offline Skittler

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Re: Zebra Nerite Snails & Kusuri Wormer Plus
« Reply #22 on: May 14, 2016, 12:23:21 PM »
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Thanks Both,

I think that the fact that the hitchhikers have survived is a good indication that it may now be safe for a nerite.

I hadn't considered putting one of the assassins in there, because about a year ago when I first researched it, the "jury was still out" about assassins and RCS. However the more I think about, it would have to be a very quick snail to catch a shrimp! Also, considering the difficulty of acclimatising shrimps, and the occasional losses, my guess is that those who have witnessed an assassin take a shrimp were probably watching the demise of a very sick (or dead) individual. I suppose that with a quoted lifespan of 1-2 years, if you buy adult RCS, then the chances of them surviving for more than a year are probably slim.

So, an assassin it is then. If he thrives, then I will swap for a nerite, and he can have a go at all that lovely algae!

Thanks again both, I will keep you posted on how it goes.

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Offline Fiona

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Re: Zebra Nerite Snails & Kusuri Wormer Plus
« Reply #23 on: May 14, 2016, 09:12:34 PM »
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However the more I think about, it would have to be a very quick snail to catch a shrimp!

Sneaky buggers those assassins, you'd be amazed how fast they travel. Check the decor out for hidden motor bikes!  ;D

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Offline Skittler

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Re: Zebra Nerite Snails & Kusuri Wormer Plus
« Reply #24 on: May 14, 2016, 09:37:11 PM »
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I suppose, Fiona, that they must be able to travel faster than a "snail's pace" ........... or they would starve!

I now have this image of a (silent) assassin on a Kawasaki ............... but how would he steer?...... mind you, he already has a helmet on .....  Watching them when they were in the 125L, I don't think the clutch will be a problem, ...... or the throttle!

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Offline Fiona

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Re: Zebra Nerite Snails & Kusuri Wormer Plus
« Reply #25 on: May 15, 2016, 11:51:16 AM »
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I suppose, Fiona, that they must be able to travel faster than a "snail's pace" ........... or they would starve!
Like you said I doubt they'd catch a healthy shrimp. In my 200l they eat bloodworms and catfish pellets.

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Offline Skittler

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Re: Zebra Nerite Snails & Kusuri Wormer Plus
« Reply #26 on: May 25, 2016, 06:55:31 PM »
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Well, the assassin has done his job so far. It turns out that the two hitchhikers which I had seen, were a "pond snail" and a Ramshorn, and they were both immediately invited to dinner! If these were the only two, then perhaps there will be no babies. However, there are dozens of nooks and crannies where they could be lurking.

So, he was replaced with a Nerite  (from the 125L), which is being closely monitored. This will be the fourth attempt. So far, after only 2 days, the front glass is noticeably cleaner, and I can now see the baby shrimps much better. Mind you, I have been here before ........... 

Thanks again Fiona for the idea ........ all I needed was someone to tell me that I already had the solution in another tank! ................ doh!

                                      Skittler

Offline Fiona

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Re: Zebra Nerite Snails & Kusuri Wormer Plus
« Reply #27 on: May 26, 2016, 10:08:22 AM »
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Thanks again Fiona for the idea ........ all I needed was someone to tell me that I already had the solution in another tank! ................ doh!

                                      Skittler

Glad it worked :)

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